Food grade finish to use over ubeaut water dyes?

[ReneeHiggs]

I've been experimenting with ubeaut water dyes, i want to use them on childrens toys.

I'm trying to find an appropriate finish that is also safe for mouthy bubs that is relatively simple to use.

Has anyone done this before and have a good option? I've been really struggling to find a water based food grade sealing finish available in Australia.

Thanks for your time!

Kind regards
Renée

[ReneeHiggs]

Was looking at another thread discussing these dyes "They are also great for use under all other finishes with the exception of water based product" Any feedback on the UBeaut Water Dyes (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f9/feedback-ubeaut-water-dyes-18565)

So despite being a water based dye it shouldn't be used with a water based finish (I thought being water based it should be paired with water based finish, the whole don't mix oil and water thing).

Has anyone had experience pairing the dyes with an oil based food grade finish?

Kind Regards,

Renee

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Shellac works well... and you can't get much more food-safe. After all, certain candies & pharmaceuticals are dipped in it!

[Potts]

I use Ubeaut dyes on some of the toys i do, I then just use a beeswax polish which I make myself with one part beeswax to three parts mineral oil. I usually let the dye dry for two days before waxing, usually applied by brush or paper towel, leave for ten, fifteen minutes and then just wipe of excess. You may get a little colour on your paper towel but nothing to be concerned about. Both my grand daughters have blocks done this way, both seem to love having them in their mouths and the blocks and the girls have suffered no ill effects.

[woodPixel]

My 2 cents....

I was asked by a retail toy company to dye a large number of blocks to go into a pushcart I make for them.

Well, that turned into a trip down the rabbit hole*.

Blocks, no problem to make, but a wood dye that is certified kiddie safe.... I may as well have been asking for a big bag of hens teeth.

In the end I turned to food dyes and clothing dye (specifically RIT - who provided me with a thousand bottles in all colours!).

They were then (either) sprayed with nitrocellulose, rubbed with the combo of bees wax/mineral oil (nice to use!) or just plonked in mineral oil.

I found the colours weak. Tried using hot water, pressure pots, a huge vacuum pump. This improved things, but it was a lot of work.

It was a dissatisfying experience to be honest. It was a lot of work.


The other option I found was to spray them with (a rather interesting product) called MIROLAC Nitro. They certify this for kids toys. MIROLAC NC Nitrocellulose Lacquers by Mirotone (https://www.mirotone.com/product-category/mirolac-nc-nitrocellulose-lacquers/) but these are NOT dyes. It is a form of paint - albeit a totally 100% excellent product.

The other OTHER option is Milk Paint. Wow, did I love those. Such excellent rustic understated colours, but expensive as hell.


Would be interested to know your findings!



* I could NOT find a SINGLE overseas toy maker who would divulge their products composition. They would bleat and promote the safety of their dyed/painted kids products, but when SPECIFICALLY asked to identify EXACTLY what it was, they all (without exception) claimed confidentiality, a "proprietary method" or it was some trade secret. It was/is 100% . They use these worthless statements to sell their toys and refuse to back it up with facts. They are, bluntly - sharks, charlatans and a complete fraud.

[ReneeHiggs]

A lot of people in the group I'm in (diy wooden toys Australia) have been using Rit however emailing with the company they advised to seal it with something if for mouthing age children.

Osmo make coloured products (not cheap!) Food grade and recommended for toys (it's a oil/wax combo if I'm remembering correctly) I'm experimenting with it also, however it's expensive enough that most people in the group would likely look for another solution (atm most people are using Kaiser acrylics, which need to be sealed as they're non-toxic but not good grade, or Rit which also needs to be sealed)

A number of people are turned to wax (bees wax, Annie alone wax, .... another one i can't think of the brand of off the top of my head) but as far as I'm aware wax will wear away from use/washing and will need to be reapplied. As I'm looking to make a bunch of block sets for my kiddos and maybe some for friends kids as presents I'd like to avoid that sort of maintenance if possible.

Any food grade dye/paint should be kiddie safe (the u-beaut ones are food grade, reasonably priced, and produce a beautiful colour)


As far as international brands, one of them.... (ostheimers I think? I could be missremembering) uses something which contains walnut oil to dip their figures in (so i wanna know what they use to colour theres which doesn't interfere with walnut oil hardening? Though it's not very effective. I had to wash our ostheimer bear and gentle scrubbing with a mild soap took colour off)

Grimms toys are dyed, and unsealed as far as I'm aware. They appear to be ok with saliva but they do colour transfer between blocks etc with play.

[jack620]

I agree with the shellac suggestion for a top coat.

[crowie]

Here's a couple of Food grade info sheets...

475336

475337

475338

[ubeaut]

Some basic info about finish over U-Beaut Water Dye:



Water Dye needs to be sealed with a surface coating.
The very best food safe surface coating is shellac (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/flakes.html#sf1).
The best food safe coating that won't darken the dyes is White Shellac (dewaxed) (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dewaxed.html)
The best really durable food safe coating that won't darken the dyes is Hard Shellac (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/hardshell.htm) and is about as tough as a melamine bench top.
Most surface coatings are foodsafe once they have dried. Polyurethane, Shellac, epoxy, lacquer (precat, nitro, etc) etc. etc In short anything that leaves a solid coating on the surface of the dyed article.
Water based finishes are no good as they are compatible with the dye and will leach the dye from the wood.
Most waxes that can be rubbed onto the finish will be easily damaged with water alcohol, heat sticky fingers and licky-sucky children.
Some oils will work like good quality Danish Oil but would require numerous time consuming applications over a period of days or weeks to get the best coating.


STAINS, DYES AND COMPATIBILITY WITH FINISHES:



Water dye or stain. Ideally use an oil or turpentine or alcohol based finish as all are incompatible with the water stain/dye. Using water based finishes is a no-no as they they are compatible and will in all likelihood pull the stain/dye out of the wood into the finish making the whole thing look a bit on the wishy washy side.
Turpentine based stains or those that can be thinned with turpentine are fine for most finishes. Eg: poly, lacquer, shellac and other readily available varnishes.... So long as the stain has been applied properly and given plenty of drying time (at least overnight preferably 24 hrs or more) before coating over them with a finish.
Alcohol based stains/dyes are fine with all finishes that don't have an alcohol base. They will often leach out into shellac and any other finish that needs use as their thinner. However the alcohol based dyes are mainly made for use on hardwoods and may look a terrible mess and often washed out if used on softwoods.
Cold dye (Rit, Dylon, etc): are designed specifically for use on fabric but can also be used on timber and paper and other porous items. They will often fade drastically and aren't colour fast so need to be treated with a fixer either supplied by the dye manufacturer or (from memory) you san use use salt and water (long, long, long time since I experimented with them back in the mid 70's). Used to be able to buy them readily in in most supermarket and haberdasheries and there were sold in little round tins about the size of 50cnt piece, maybe 20mm deep and in literally hundreds of available colours.


Anyway off the top of my head that's about all I've got left in the brain for now.

Any questions or comments, stick 'em in here. I'll keep an eye on the thread and respond when I can.

Hope this is of some help to anyone wondering about the water dyes, etc.

Cheers - Neil :U

PS Around 10 or so years ago Organoil did a series of test pieces using our water dye and finishing with numerous coats of their Danish Oil. The results were very, very good. Nice finish with with the colours staying vibrant. The only problem was the number of coats and the time needed to do them, other than. All in all a very pleasing result. I presume they still show the piece when they are doing the Wood Show. Last time I saw their trial piece was a few years ago and it still looked very good.

[ubeaut]

The other OTHER option is Milk Paint. Wow, did I love those. Such excellent rustic understated colours, but expensive as hell.

Just as an aside to the rest of this thread.

If you use Milk Paint or Chalk Paint (similar but different) it isn't essential but better to finish over the paint with a wax. U-Beaut Traditional Waxes neutral and coloured are highly recommended for this purpose. Below is an extract from Marilyn's Chalk Furniture Paint website.

Chalk Paint Aging Wax 250ml
Marilyn’s partnering with U-Beaut Traditional Wax offers you a 100% natural (you can eat of it, that’s if you want to?) soft wax which will cure/seal you Chalk Painted decorator item. Many waxes have far too much of this and way too much of that and can actually strip your beautiful newly painted item.

Chalk Paint Dark Aging Wax is the one you put on and wipe off with your Neutral wax to give that wonderful “aged”, “antique”, “old” look without the age (how cool is that, instant age, glad it’s not us!)

Sorry for the blatant advert it's meant as helpful info rather than fogging some wax.

Cheers :U

[woodPixel]

Nice.

I was thinking about using more milk paint for a few projects.

Might just have to give this new wax a go :)

[ubeaut]

FWIW Marilyn calls them Chalk Paint Aging Waxes. They're not a new wax they're our Traditional Waxes (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/trad.html)

They use the neutral to give a bit of a sheen to what's usually a mat surface and have also used Walnut, for dirty old world look. Baltic for a lighter aged tanin-yellow look and (I think) Cedar for deeper reddish cedar shades.

The walnut is preferred wax for makers of reproduction moldings on architrave, skirting boards, paneled doors, carvings, balustrades, etc. Gives a dirty brownish black look, similar smoke affected moldings and panels, etc. that had been subjected to years of open fires, soot and dust.

Hope this bit more info is of some help.

:U