I have a problem

[scottbr]

Well, it's not really my problem but it will become mine. A friend spilled bleach on this table, hence the light patches. I'm not sure what the coating on the table was, but it the bleach penetrated it.

Since this photo was taken my friend oiled those patches which turned those pale patches a reddish colour - I'm assuming the oil had a bit of a stain in it.

So, hit me with your thoughts.

I'm just a DIY bloke, but have good Festool sanders so I can easily and proficiently sand the whole top. I'm assuming that's the starting point?

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[elanjacobs]

Strip it off and re-finish it

[China]

I second that

[scottbr]

Yep, getting the existing finish off is step 1.
Do I need to strip it ans then sand or can I just sand it?
When I get the surface off, I will see how the bleached (and now oiled) patches stand out.
Anyone know what timber it might be? It's not a veneer.
Does it look like it has been stained or would it have perhaps darkened with age?
I will finish with Osmo hardwax oil because I have a can. My dopey friend would be keen for it to look similar to how it is now i.e. not too light in colour.

[elanjacobs]

80 grit paper will be fine to strip it

It's kinda hard to say what it is from that pic, but I have a feeling it might be rubber wood. If so, it has likely been stained.

[scottbr]

Thanks Elan. Glad I don't have to use stripper.
I just had to google rubber wood.
I'm sure the table is a 1950s one.

[scottbr]

Just heard from the table owner that they bought it 20 years ago from a shop in Sydney called Original Finish. She reckons they made it and she thought it was blackbutt, so not as old as I thought. The chairs are 50s ones and I assumed the table was the same age.

[scottbr]

Here are a few more photos of the table. It's an expanding table and the the middle section lifts off, so that's good - easy to brings the top home. My friend got a quote to strip and shellac that middle section and clean and wax the extensions at each end and the quote $1,810. That's why they asked for my help. I have have had a lot of meals at that table.
I would have thought that it would be better for all three sections of the table to be stripped and refinished. Your collective thoughts?
My plan is to sand with 80 and then finer and then do a couple of coats of OSMO hardwax oil. I am concerned about the patches that were affected by the bleach that my friend then used oil on. What do you reckon?
The bloke who quoted to fix it was going to finish in shellac. That indicates it might be a shellac finish? Could that be why the spilled bleach went through it so easily?
The table has a nice aged look. Sanding it will take that away. Would shellac be a way to put some of the gold colour back? Can I use OSMO over shellac to give it some durability?
I know, I know, so many questions.
I'm keen for any guidance you more experienced people may have. What should I be wary of? What could I stuff up?
I don't want to be sitting at that table down the track wishing I had thought a bit more about things before I did it. Or worse still, maybe be I won't get any more dinner invitations if I stuff it up? That would be a pity.


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[elanjacobs]

From the new pics I don't think it's Blackbutt, maybe Blackwood though as that does yellow quite a lot with age

My only advice is never work for friends or family

[scottbr]

Thanks for the input on the timber.
I'll wait in hope for other comments.

[auscab]

Strip it by Sanding it with 80 grit paper ! That's the stuff of furniture restoration horror stories.

First . Your mate and the bleach. What bleach Exactly ?
Yeah the wood looks like Blackwood . Nice looking table top as well . French polish is great .

Those spots look like its been hit with something very alkaline . Oven cleaner ? Caustic soda ? Same/ similar . That has an effect of not just dissolving the finish but also of darkening the wood . Strong detergents and Ammonia based cleaners will do the same .
White King ? Maybe that does the same ?

Now if you get the right sort of acid , sometimes just by rubbing it on will reverse the effect and the normal colour will return .

So what acid can you get hold of . Vinegar is or has acetic acid in it to some level ? not sure how much but you could try a spot . It'll be weak and hardly work at all but worth a try . Vinegar is the common neutralizer used for washing down after caustic stripping jobs .

Oxalic acid is used in deck cleaners. Its more a iron oxide dirt bleaching acid and works good on that sort of thing but this is different . If you had some to try though, why not ?

I use Hydrochloric acid for such things . Ive got a 4 lt bottle of Brick cleaning stuff and a bottle of the same for swimming pool adjustment. Dynamite strong stuff.
Its way to strong to put on straight though I have done that sometimes. Id get a small jar and tip a little in . Then another small jar with 10mm of water in the bottom . Id mix a weak solution and rub it on . Dry it off with a hair dryer or heat gun . If no effect add more acid and try again a few times.
If it does work, wash it over with clean water a few times to wash the remaining acid away and let dry.

This may work. Just try it on a few parts and see. If it does, touching up the marks with shellac, blending in and re polishing is the way forward after that.

Adjusting colours this way doesn't always work but its always worth a test . It'll be an easy fix if it does work.

If it doesn't work and stripping the whole top is going to be the way , the darker spots will probably still be there after stripping . Sanding finishes off doesn't work . The finish clogs up the paper. I would strip and then sand or strip and re plane the top .

Last week I had a big top that needed the finish gone and the acid marks that were under the finish gone . It was a reaction stain and hydrochloric acid disaster of mine that went wrong when the acid reacted with a number of patches where some steel wool had been used . The acid and steel reacted giving large black patches . I was low on stripper. Two of us had the finish and stains gone in two hours using sharp no 4 smoothing planes . Spoke shaves and cabinet scrapers. It was a big top . 3.2 x 1.2 . We sanded after that and started again with the polish job .

Rob

[scottbr]

Rob, I appreciate very much you taking the time to write such a comprehensive reply.
The owner of the table is pretty sure the product she used initially that stripped the gloss and created the pale patches was Ajax Professional Mould killer. It was something used in the bathroom that inadvertently made its way to the living room and that table. She has since thrown it away lest she have another accident.
She then used O'Cedar oil on the pale patches which have them that sort of reddish colour.
I fear that sourcing and playing with various acids could make things worse, so stripping, sanding and refinishing could be the way to go.
The owner of the table is keen for a different finish. I have a table finished in Osmo Hardwax Oil and she likes the feel of that. She's not keen on the gloss finish her table has.
You think it has been finished in shellac? What is the best way to strip it?
Sanding I can do - I have a good sander and loads of papers go way up.
I am worried about losing the patina. Can I lay down some shellac to get the yellow back and then coat over the top with Osmo?
If I don't feel comfortable with the project, I will abort.
Thank you again for you lengthy response late last night.

[auscab]

That response was lengthy . I get started and just keep going sometimes . Your problem has been the way I’ve made a living since 1979 . I’m in deep :) .

You strip and sand that and there is no patina left to worry about . You’ve blown it all away . Unless you know how to re patinate your just going to end up with a new finish . The Flat semi gloss or dull finish of Osmo will look good compared to shiny shellac though .
The patina you have there is more than just dents and scratches and shine , it’s Also the Faded oxidised wood in a big way , something that time and light does to wood . Sanding that off is not a good idea .
You could strip By using just metho And OO steel wool , then try and treat the spots . And re finish with Osmo . Most of the patina if the wood is then kept . Stripper is faster and easier but Metho works if you know what your doing . You have to let it do the work for you and don’t do to much at once . It dries off to quick .
Playing with the acid on a ten cent piece sized bit of wood may save you 20 hours sanding . Depending on how you go about it .

Rob

[auscab]

The other thing you could try is washing it off then see if you can blend just the dark spots in by lightly sanding around one . Before you do the whole thing maybe .
The tabke looks like shellac . You can’t really tell unless you can touch and see It . And how it reacts when washing off as well .

[scottbr]

Thanks again, Rob. Since 1979, huh. That's very deep - there is no getting out now.
I will do a test with metho and see whether I can confirm it's shellac.
The table owner likes the idea of a non-shellac finish.
I like the thought of doing the whole top with metho and steel wool and then giving it a light sand and a few coats of Osmo. Seems easy when you write all that in one sentence.
Would a cabinet scrapper used carefully work with the metho, too?
I've done some research and it seems Osmo over sanded shellac is unwise. Can you conirm?
Thanks again for you advice and if I do this favour I will post photos. If you were in Sydney, you would get a dinner invitation - assuming the table turns out okay.

[auscab]

The cabinet scraper will scrape soft polish off . You may mark the top and a little more sanding could be needed.
Steel wool and Blackwood can be a bad mix. So can scrapers and Blackwood usually its if any water gets near the job . The Blackwood reacts and iron oxide stains can occur.

I'm only on my first can of Osmo . There seems there is a lot of rules that you have to stick to .
not sure about shellac and Osmo.
I have been playing with oil based sanding sealer and Osmo and that seems to work. That's good because You cant seem to fill grain with Osmo alone. So a sanding sealer first and finish with Osmo table of mine is almost finished. It'll need a wax to complete it .

Yep dinner sounds good . Just fly me up :).

Hope it works out and do post pictures.

[scottbr]

If it turns out to be shellac, I'll try metho and a cabinet scraper and call any marks I make 'added patina'.
I'm near the end of my third 2.5l can of Osmo. I used it on a floor, some chairs I restored, and some nice internal joinery that I made. I like it.
I would be keen to see how your table ends up.
What wax would you put on it?

[auscab]

If it turns out to be shellac, I'll try metho and a cabinet scraper and call any marks I make 'added patina'.
I'm near the end of my third 2.5l can of Osmo. I used it on a floor, some chairs I restored, and some nice internal joinery that I made. I like it.
I would be keen to see how your table ends up.
What wax would you put on it?

The wax I make myself. I get the pure turps in 20 lt drums and have a nice stash of Bees wax and not such a big stash of Carnauba . Its good and I never have to buy small cans of the stuff . I go through a bucket a year I suppose . Sometimes more selling it off to the ladies.

These are tables I make.
Its a similar table to this one but with a four board Oak top .
This is an Oak two board top Login • Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/p/BjoBqL8AhBV/)
Another top putting a body of shellac on with a rubber.
Login • Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/p/Bc6fOkclrcc/)

[scottbr]

Nice tables, Rob. Good videos, too - you make it look a bit easier than I suspect it is.
I've always found wax tricky. I might to do a bit of research and give it another try one day.

[scottbr]

So Rob, that large middle section of the table just lifts off. It is not attached to anything. The side wings slide under it. Looking at the photo I posted earlier, I can see the top has some cross pieces under it.
If I do this favour and bring the top home and strip and sand it. Is there a chance that with one side untreated for a day or so the whole thing will cup or bow? That would be disappointing for everyone - except perhaps you.

[auscab]

This type of table is called a Draw leaf table table .

What is a Draw Leaf Table - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&sxsrf=ALeKk02RuNbn_JHTwAnVutIfOnjLr-uwiA%3A1590745068771&ei=7NfQXonPLp2Q4-EP6YGd-As&q=What+is+a+Draw+Leaf+Table&oq=What+is+a+Draw+Leaf+Table&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzIECCMQJzIGCAAQCBAeOgQIABBHOgcIIxCwAhAnOggIABAIEA0QHlCsUFjYVGC0YWgAcAF4AIAB5gGIAbkDkgEDMi0ymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiJ9YGW49jpAhUdyDgGHelAB78Q4dUDCAs&uact=5)Your one has a Mitred top . The top having a mitred frame around it will resist cupping to a point.

With finish on it or raw you can have problems . If its mistreated by letting it sit in direct hot sunlight for to long or next to a heat source the center could cup and or shrink . Gaps will appear in the center panel .The mitred frame will hardly move but the center can on these things .

Or if its placed on moist surface , or is placed in a high humidity situation for to long it will do worse than cup it can expand and pop the mitred corners. If they are just dowled , or biscuit joins they can easy pop open . Nothing will fix it , except drying and waiting for it to shrink , which isnt really fixing it , it'll keep showing up if the glue join is broken . Cutting it apart and re joining it back together is the only way to fix it with good joinery.

One good way of jointing the mitred corners is a tenon and pegs i do that some times Or a better way which I still do is a dovetailed tenon/ Patch inserted from the under side going up into the top . That locks it like nothing else can and Ive never seen one come apart or pop open . A biscuit joined mitred top opens if you sneeze to hard. They don't hold long at all .

These are worst case , like if you forget it and leave it for few hours in the wrong place. The safest thing is to get it into a stable workplace and do the work there . And if its a tin shed that heats and cools like mine , hopeless, then lie it out on a flat table that's larger than it ,and when ever you leave it for the night cover it up with a sheet or planks of flat wood . Or a couple of blankets if you don't have that .

This time of the year isn't to bad for movement problems . Its not so good for finishing if its cold and moist .

[scottbr]

Thanks again, Robert. It will be the weekend after this one when I can do it. I'll bring the middle section home and do it first - being careful in line with your comments above. I'll strip it in my shed, but will leave it in another building overnight - hopefully with one coat of finish on it. I did some tests on different timbers with the OSMO on the weekend applying it with a different technique than previously. I got a much better result.

[scottbr]

Okay, so I got the table top over to my place. The fact that it just lifted off made it easy.
The shellac came off with metho. That was pretty simple.
Then I gave it a sand - up to 320. The plan was to just make it smooth. I was careful to not remove the patina or it would end up very light in color.
It had had 2 coats of OSMO applied very thinly yesterday with a white non-abrasive pad. It will get a third coat tonight. The finish is perfect.
But.... the stains are still there. You will recall that the table owner had spilt a household cleaner on the table. That went through the shellac and then bleached the wood. Next, she put a liberal amount of O'Cedar polish on the bleached patches.
That stained those patches red. I reckon if the O'Cedar had not been applied, I could have colored the bleached patches and got them to match the rest of the table.
I suspect the only way to really fix that top would be to give it a deep sand and then stain it to get a golden color again. That might disguise the patches somewhat, but they will never disappear. I have never had much success with staining, so I would not attempt this.

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[scottbr]

It's one step forward and two steps back. I attacked one of the reddish patches with a cabinet scraper. I reckon I can get about 80% of the colour out. I'll do that to all of them and work out the next step. 475340

[havabeer69]

sounds like it would have been easier to just squirt bleach all over the table randomly and claim it as a feature of the wood...

[scottbr]

So Friday night I got a couple of beers and started with the cabinet scrapers. My thumbs are still sore. It worked - got nearly all the colour out.
Of course, then I ended up with some large areas that were much lighter than the rest of the table. I had some stain in my shed - old baltic (Feast Watson) - and did a test on a similar piece of timber. I managed to get the light patches to match the rest of the table, which surprised me. It doesn't photograph well, but I had a mate over yesterday and explained the whole sage and he could not pick where the stains (and light patches) had been. The table has retained its patina, which was important because it needs to match the extension bits on each end.
The scraped patches are proving tricky to treat with OSMO. It just soaks right in. I did three coats and went looking online for some tips. I read something written by a bloke in the US who has a technique where he applies the OSMO and then gets some wet and dry paper and sands with the grain working it into a slurry. Then he wipes it. I tried that and it seemed to work - must have better filled the pores. I'll put a few more coats on the patches this week and then do the whole table again and try and get some better photos.
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[scottbr]

Finished. And delivered - my future dinner invitations are assured.
It's tricky to photograph. You'll have to take my word for the fact that only people who know there was a disaster would be able to pick the blemishes. The fact that the timber varies (it was made from recycled timber) and there is plenty of retained patina definitely helped.
On the weekend I brought home the extension pieces that sit at the each end to strip and refinish them. They are easy because there were no problems with them. I got the shellac off and sanded at 180 and then 320. Then I vacuumed and applied OSMO very thinly with a white non scratch pad. I did as before and really rubbed it in. I'll do it two more times and then it will be finished.
I learnt a few things, which is good. It's always good to keep learning. Applying OSMO with that non scratch pad and really buffing the first two coats was an especially useful thing to learn. I'll always use that method from now on. It creates a great finish.

475938

[Shootrj2003]

Yep, getting the existing finish off is step 1.
Do I need to strip it ans then sand or can I just sand it?
When I get the surface off, I will see how the bleached (and now oiled) patches stand out.
Anyone know what timber it might be? It's not a veneer.
Does it look like it has been stained or would it have perhaps darkened with age?
I will finish with Osmo hardwax oil because I have a can. My dopey friend would be keen for it to look similar to how it is now i.e. not too light in colour.
Chemical strip if the surface is smooth,you can go with the methylene stuff but there are better water based and citrus based items out there now that are safer for you,of course I don’t know what is allowed where you live in ,NY ,USA I can use whatever works for me ,then there’s a minimum of sanding,what is the old finish? Lacquer,oil. Shellac? Once the finish is off you might try to even the color by bleaching the whole top then stain to your desired color.if the defect color won’t bleach out then sanding is a neccesity.
By the way I’m new here everyone and from NY.....sorry!

[auscab]

By the way I’m new here everyone and from NY.....sorry!

Ha ha , No probs . Nice to see you hear :2tsup:.