Rob Streeper - a USA member here - got the C19 virus

[FenceFurniture]

Yesterday I sent Rob an email to see how the situation was affecting him. I was somewhat shocked at his reply of "My wife and I caught the virus in mid-January. She has pretty much recovered, but I'm still not well".

Rob lives in San Antonio TX, and went to a conference in CA for 3 days. To quote some of his email (with his permission, and bear in mind that this is 15-16 weeks after catching it):
"Unfortunately I've been unable to do anything related to tools or woodworking, too damn sick or busy. We went to San Francisco on the 13th of January and returned on the 15th. We attended a couple of receptions related to a healthcare conference. People were sneezing all around us.
We got home and both fell sick the next day. It came on like the flu. The first week was pretty much similar. Not too bad but not good.

The second week was Hell. Flu symptoms intensified and then came the coughing. I was awake three days straight coughing my lungs up. Lots of phlegm and some blood. Body pain was really bad. Intermittent fevers and chills. I had one episode of tachycardia. I remember being in a dream state half asleep and there was a sound like a lawn mower running. I thought 'who's the fool mowing?", then I realized I was hearing my heart beating, too fast to make out the individual beats.

Extreme weakness and unsteadiness set in. Brain fog too. Only a little nausea. Every joint hurt as if sprained. No appetite or sense of smell and my sense of taste was so distorted nothing tasted decent so I stopped eating for a week. After two and a half weeks I was finally able to leave the house. Lost 20 lbs.

The following week optic neuritis set in leaving me functionally blind in my right eye. Interestingly my night vision in both eyes improved so whatever was happening must have affected only the cone cells. Finally resolved this by taking our drug by mouthy and using steroid eye drops. Vision now is fine, in fact it may be a little better than it was.

For the past two months I've had GI/digestive issues. Currently struggling with pancreatitis/gastroenteritis and concomitant hyperglycemia. Using oral steroids and our drug for intestinal and systemic inflammation, hyperglycemia is getting better. Energy and motivation are starting to return but still nowhere near normal. Despite all this I am feeling better now than I have since catching it."



So pretty much your standard cold then? Definitely not! One round of debilitating symptoms after another for weeks and weeks on end. That is certainly the worst first-hand account I have read.

For those of us here in Oz that are feeling somewhat insulated from this virus, it gives pause for thought. The situation here could have been a helluva lot different. Just because it didn't happen that way doesn't mean it isn't real, and frightening. Perhaps we've been a little laissez faire?

Just a point of interest, for perspective:
Texas, the largest of the contiguous 48 states, is a little smaller than New South Wales, fits into Queensland nearly three times over, and not quite four times into Western Australia, and about 1.5 times into South Aust. It's 3x bigger than Victoria.
It has a population of 29mill, 3mill more than Australia's entire population.
TX has ~28,000 cases and 782 deaths. Australia has 6781 cases and 94 deaths. We definitely dodged a bullet.

Wishing you and your wife all the very best Rob.

[FenceFurniture]

That scary list of symptoms bears consolidating and repeating:
1-2 days after exposure: both fell sick the next day.
The first week was pretty much similar to the flu. Not too bad but not good.

The second week: Flu symptoms intensified, coughing for days straight , lots of phlegm and some blood.
Body pain was really bad. Every joint hurt as if sprained.
Intermittent fevers and chills.
One episode of tachycardia, too fast to make out the individual heartbeats.
Extreme weakness and unsteadiness.
Brain fog too.
Only a little nausea.
No appetite or sense of smell and sense of taste so distorted nothing tasted decent.
Lost 20 lbs.

The third week: optic neuritis set in, functionally blind in one eye. Vision now is fine.

For two months: GI/digestive issues. Pancreatitis/gastroenteritis and concomitant hyperglycemia.
Intestinal and systemic inflammation, hyperglycemia now getting better.
Energy and motivation are starting to return but still nowhere near normal.


That's a damn tough set of symptoms to go through for three months or more.

[Simplicity]

Thanks for sharing Brett

Rob all the best to you and your wife and I hope things return to a state of normality soon.

Take Care Matt.

[rob streeper]

Thanks Matt and Brett.

In describing my symptoms I forgot to add the difficulty taking breath. Even slight exertion left us gasping even after several weeks. My feeling of breathlessness is just now pretty much resolved.

Trust me, this disease is not a trifle, it's not the flu. If you get a good nose full of it as we did it will be something you'll remember for a long time.

[FenceFurniture]

If you get a good nose full of it as we did it will be something you'll remember for a long time.That seems to be the thing with this virus: the more exposure, and therefore more virus particles entering the system, the worse the case. I'm not sure if that's the case with regular colds and flu, but it doesn't seem that way. Maybe as a result of not many people with a cold of flu in one place to load up some other poor bugger? Presumably in January, when it was virtually unknown, all those people at the conference just thought they had a cold, but wouldn't you think it would strike them as odd that SO many people were sneezing (especially as they were medical and allied professionals)?

[BobL]

That seems to be the thing with this virus: the more exposure, and therefore more virus particles entering the system, the worse the case. I'm not sure if that's the case with regular colds and flu, but it doesn't seem that way.

Total Exposure/dose is a critical factor (even for regular flu) only one of several factors, the others appears to be "general state of your health", and the way your immune system reacts (to either the flu or COVID19).

SO, you may be very healthy and have a good immune response but have such a big dose - BANG. This is why healthy health professionals can get it
OR
You have may be very healthy and have a low dose but your immune response is poor or over active - BANG.
ETC
.
.
.
you may be in poor health, have a poor immune response, and have a very low dose - BANG.

[FenceFurniture]

BANG
BANG
BANG.Rob's in Texas, not Michigan.

[BobL]

Thanks Matt and Brett.

In describing my symptoms I forgot to add the difficulty taking breath. Even slight exertion left us gasping even after several weeks. My feeling of breathlessness is just now pretty much resolved.

Trust me, this disease is not a trifle, it's not the flu. If you get a good nose full of it as we did it will be something you'll remember for a long time.

Very sorry to hear this. I hope you can make a full recovery soon.
Best regards

[Bushmiller]

Hey Rob

So sorry to hear this news. I had meant to contact you several times and somehow I didn't (I had put your low profile down to being busy with business ), although by the sounds of it you were hardly in a fit state to reply: Too sick in fact to contribute to GraemeCook's Coronavirus thread, which now is also in lockdown.

CoronaVirus ==> Empty Shelves (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f43/coronavirus-empty-shelves-233039)

It became a little controversial, but it might have been good to have heard from an actual sufferer as many comments were made that nobody knew of a person who had contacted the disease. First hand input would have been excellent: For us more than you!!

Your description that Brett has conveyed to us emphasises, for me, the insidious nature of this particular Covid-19 strain, how little anybody really knows about it and now following your comments, the far reaching repercussions that few of us even imagined.

Brett's comment that we have dodged a bullet here in Australia is most appropriate. We need to make sure we don't mess up this advantage.

I'm glad to hear you are well on the way to mending (and that your wfe was less traumatised by the illness) and look forward to some of your excellent Forum posts in the future.

Get well.

Regards
Paul

[woodPixel]

January 13th.

Thats very... very interesting.

CA you say?

I'll find a post I saved in my archive. This whole affair is beginning to look... suspicious.

Rob, get better mate. There is nothing more important.


EDIT 1 - I've been following this from the very start. Here is some official data, it can be seen that the first cases didn't officially start in the USA until later.... Corona Virus is spreading: Excel sheet : Coronavirus (https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/eudmse/corona_virus_is_spreading_excel_sheet/)

I'll find some more. The early reporting is incredibly illuminating as to just how much Psy-Ops is being employed on us now.

[Lappa]

Rob,
Not good news. Hope things improve.
On reading your email you don’t mention getting tested for C19. Did you actually get tested and what test did they do?
I got tested last Saturday and had to totally isolate until I got the results back 5 days after the test.

[FenceFurniture]

January 13th. Thats very... very interesting.

I'll find a post I saved in my archive. This whole affair is beginning to look... suspicious.Yes, I was surprised at how early Rob's infection was in the whole affair. I'm losing track of all the time lines now.

[Pagie]

I'm glad you are getting better.

[rob streeper]

On reading your email you don’t mention getting tested for C19. Did you actually get tested and what test did they do?


We were never tested. At the time of our illness there were no tests available locally. Our diagnosis is based on symptoms. The symptoms fit to a T. We both watch the medical literature closely and have found that as time passes and the physician community catches up the fit to our symptoms becomes even more perfect.
Back in January we speculated that we were suffering from the virus but mostly dismissed the possibility as unrealistic because at the time it was present only in China. Now we're all but certain that we had it. As serological tests become more widely available we plan to get checked. I did have the foresight during the worst of our disease to take a nasal mucous sample which I have stored frozen for PCR. The United States was caught completely flat-footed in this instance, a totally unprepared clown show.

[rob streeper]

Roche test sounds good, let's see how expensive and available it is. Pharma giant Roche gets US go-ahead for Covid-19 antibody test | World news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/03/pharma-giant-roche-gets-us-go-ahead-for-covid-19-antibody-test)

[FenceFurniture]

The United States was caught completely flat-footed in this instance, a totally unprepared clown show.Not sure why you'd say that Rob.

472951

[jmk89]

Just caught up with this thread.

Let me add my best wishes for a good recovery, Rob and Mrs Rob

[Fekit]

Hi rob, hopefully everything works out mate.


Back in January we speculated that we were suffering from the virus but mostly dismissed the possibility as unrealistic because at the time it was present only in China.

That is what I suspect happened here, although we had a milder strain of the virus, which was reported in Wuhan at the time. The symptoms were as described for a mild case and lasted for quite a few weeks. I'd like to note that I don't know anyone who hasn't had it. I would also like to note that I know of a family, first hand, who contracted a virus with exactly the symptoms of mildish Cov19, they all got tested. The results revealed an unknown upper respiratory tract viral infection, that was in mid January when Cov19 was largely a Chinese thing albeit we recorded our first on the 6th of January.

[Handyjack]

I heard DT say America was the envy of the world. Not sure why though? Perhaps because of more cases and deaths?

Thank you for the first hand in sight.

[FenceFurniture]

I heard DT say America was the envy of the world.At face value, that statement is correct. Not sure what era he was referring to though.

[Fuzzie]

..... I'd like to note that I don't know anyone who hasn't had it. I would also like to note that I know of a family, first hand, who contracted a virus with exactly the symptoms of mildish Cov19, they all got tested. The results revealed an unknown upper respiratory tract viral infection, that was in mid January when Cov19 was largely a Chinese thing albeit we recorded our first on the 6th of January.

This fits in with the date of one of our early high profile cases. Tom Hanks arrived here in early March, and was diagnosed a couple of weeks later with Cov19. Just saying, coming from LA where it might have already been circulating widely is suspicious.

Get well and stay well all!

[rob streeper]

473104

I just came across this. The original is dated 5/4. Looks like things may get considerably worse.473105

[FenceFurniture]

I haven't read this yet, but the headline is somewhat concerning:
Researchers find new coronavirus strain '''more contagious''', potentially impacting COVID-19 vaccine search - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-06/new-coronavirus-covid19-strain-mutation-hits-vaccine-research/12218834)


Rob, I've been meaning to ask you about your exposure at the conference. You said there were people sneezing all around you at a function. How widespread was the sneezing - can you roughly estimate a number and within what distance proximity?

The reason I ask is because it seems a little unusual that so many people would be at the same stage of their infection at the same time. That would indicate that they all more or less got infected at the same time too. That would then raise the question of where they had all been to get infected at the same time, and also qury the incubation period.

[FenceFurniture]

473104

I just came across this. The original is dated 5/4. Looks like things may get considerably worse.473105Yes I saw that graph. There has been no explanation as to why the number of deaths in the USA is going to dramatically worsen to perhaps 3000 per day. All I've heard is the fact, not the reasoning. Do you have any clues?

[woodPixel]

You know, I often laugh and poke jest at the people of the USA - but this is getting serious and is no longer a joke.

The people of the USA need to wake up to themselves and take a strong and considered look at its leadership.

It is about to throw people over a cliff.


It doesn't take much imagination to think through the implications. Looking back in a generation and it would be clear that this could be the beginning of the end for them.

Does this empire end, not with a bang, but whimper?

[rob streeper]

Yes I saw that graph. There has been no explanation as to why the number of deaths in the USA is going to dramatically worsen to perhaps 3000 per day. All I've heard is the fact, not the reasoning. Do you have any clues?

Hi Brett,

The data at this point appear to show that a number of demographics have enhanced liability to death because of Sars2. Among them are the usual suspects of age, cardiovascular and respiratory disease sufferers of course but somewhat surprisingly it appears that mortality correlates strongly with BMI and, this being America, there is also a strong racial mortality bias disfavoring African Americans. Socioeconomic status also appears to increase morbidity and mortality. In the US we have something like 60-70% of the population falling into the overweight or obese ranges of BMI. Race, SES and BMI are also strongly correlated. The population of the southern states, especially those comprising the former Confederacy, has a very large population of people that have one or more of the demographic characteristics that are inversely correlated with survival of Covid-19. At the moment there is a large outbreak in the Four Corners area (Colorado, Utah, New Mexico and Arizona), an area with a large Native American population.

The ineluctable truth of this epidemic is that those closer to the bottom of the various social hierarchies are suffering disproportionately and will in the end likely bear the majority of the brunt of the scourge. This situation is disgusting.

[rob streeper]

The people of the USA need to wake up to themselves and take a strong and considered look at its leadership.


In my experience most don't have the education and basic understanding of how society works to be able to make such a decision. All of the partners (including SWMBO but excepting me) in our current business enterprise are first generation immigrants and most of them have expressed surprise at how poor the educational system is here. The international educational attainment rankings don't lie.

The top tier educational institutions are world class, the rest (the majority) are not.

[Bushmiller]

Rob, I've been meaning to ask you about your exposure at the conference. You said there were people sneezing all around you at a function. How widespread was the sneezing - can you roughly estimate a number and within what distance proximity?




Whilst I am mindful that symptoms and indeed lack of symptoms are not fully understood with this virus, I had not thought that sneezing was a prime indicator. Coughing (dry cough) certainly is one.

Regards
Paul

[rob streeper]

The sneezing wasn't a chorus but there was quite a bit going on and the venues were packed shoulder to shoulder, a couple of hundred people present at each. At the time SF was having a flu outbreak and I remember thinking "Great, now I'm going to get the flu". Unfortunately it was much worse. Among the sneezers the younger people (<35 y.o.) were notable for their failure to cover their mouths while sneezing or coughing. Same on the plane out there, young slobs snotting over everything.

[Bushmiller]

Among the sneezers the younger people (<35 y.o.) were notable for their failure to cover their mouths while sneezing or coughing. Same on the plane out there, young slobs snotting over everything.


Yuk!

Regards
Paul

[Mobyturns]

The ineluctable truth of this epidemic is that those closer to the bottom of the various social hierarchies are suffering disproportionately and will in the end likely bear the majority of the brunt of the scourge. This situation is disgusting.

Hi Rob, not good to hear you have been through this, but great that you are now in recovery and hopefully helping to build the "herd immunity." I too have suspected that CV-19 has been about in the wider population, especially in areas with high international tourist visitor numbers, for a while before WHO and other authorities responded. My 93 yo father-in-law passed whilst in hospital for a heart issue in late Feb with very similar symptoms to CV-19. We are yet to be tested, but medical authorities familiar with his case say it was not CV-19.

As for the situation in the USA it is a very sad situation to see so many avoidable deaths occurring. Yes the situation is disgusting, and a very sad indictment on federal leadership, but also a strong correlation to "unequal" access to health care. Sadly the US's obsession with "freedom" also places your population at huge risk. With freedom comes responsibilities and obligations to the welfare of the wider community.

[AlexS]

Rob, thanks for your informative posts, not just about your first hand experience of the disease, but your commentary on the social factors.
Talking to my daughter in Boulder, CO, it seems that the actions of the various governors early on have had a large effect on the seriousness or otherwise of the outbreaks in each state. Would you care to comment please?

[rob streeper]

Hi Alex,

The loosening of strictures on social movement will increase both the number of cases and the number of deaths. There have been comparisons of the dynamics of spread in Kentucky and Tennessee showing that early quarantine measures suppress spread of the virus. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/23/us-coronavirus-outbreak-tennessee-kentucky
As municipalities around the country and world relax these rules the numbers will increase. It is possible that the increasing temperatures as summer comes on will tend to limit transmission but the rate of infections will catch up in the fall.
At this point each person needs to make their own choices, government has abandoned us to our fates.

[woodPixel]

Reading about the endless troubles within the USA Novel Coronavirus (COVID-19) (https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/) seems like the USA is a failed state.

The actions of every level of governance are unbelievable. The reactions of the population are mind boggling. The way companies are fleecing both government and employees is scandalous. The absurd unfairness dished out to the people is incredible.

Have to admit - I think there is a collective insanity.

It's like watching a huge 5000-car train wreck.... it keeps going and going and going.

.... and going....

Can it be that the people actually think this is good? Its like watching those videos of North Korea where everyone is smiling while Glorious Leader is present, but they are emaciated and sweating with fear.... except the people of the USA actually have True Believerism... they actually believe this fraud? They can't see the reality of what is about to hit them?

[Pagie]

Here I know one person that has had his rent go up by 35% and the goverment do nothing.

[rob streeper]

seems like the USA is a failed state.


I wouldn't call the US a failed state. In my estimation the elements of state power rest on three legs.

The first and most important is possession of 'the bomb' and the means to deliver it. Going along with this of course is a powerful military as a necessary but not sufficient condition.

Next is financial power. The US dollar is still the default currency of the world and will likely remain so for some time due to the size of the US economy.

Finally is the technological base. In this area the US still is supreme but the competitors are much closer and are surpassing the US in many important areas. Since the 80's the US has disinvested in support of broader higher education with the result that there is now a notable shortage of technical people in many areas of science and technology.

As US superiority in the intellectual areas is surpassed the power of the state will depend more and more on 'the bomb' and the money sector. Recent events have shown the money markets have numerous weak points - black swans have been showing up with increasing frequency in recent decades, many foreseeable but some not. The military arm depends critically on science and technology and as the scientific capability of the nation erodes due to under-investment the competitors will eventually surpass the US.

Ultimately though demographics will win and the new focus of world power will be in the East, can't say when but it will be a while.

[Chesand]

Ultimately though demographics will win and the new focus of world power will be in the East, can't say when but it will be a while.

That is exactly what we have to be wary of.

[Cgcc]

The other thing I can't believe, woodPixel, is their gun culture.

They really have come to believe that their gun culture is their effective guarantee against tyranny. There seems to be fond imaginings of some scenario where the US military will be persuaded to turn against its citizens (what?) but beaten back by civilian militias.

Really, if you got to the scenario where the military or police were willing to enforce a dictatorship, how much of a resistance do you think your average crowd of civilians with AR-15s would last against tanks, helicopters, trained snipers, drones, and generally a modern military. Look what they did to the Iraqi insurgents. IEDs were the only thing that were effective in that scenario. Firing a firearm just identified your location. The gap is getting greater all the time between what a modern military can do and your average civilian.

Although I would like to see much in America, their gun culture just terrifies me on an intellectual level. I can't see myself ever travelling there. After Sandy Hook, geezus, mass shootings of toddlers and primary school kids, it became clear the USA will not change for at least a generation.

[Lappa]

I communicate with my sister in California regularly and it appears the Governor is doing a great job - ignoring Trump and keeping the restrictions in place.

[Fuzzie]

...... There seems to be fond imaginings of some scenario where the US military will be persuaded to turn against its citizens (what?) but beaten back by civilian militias.
.....

Now let me see. A government led by Donald. What could possibly go wrong?

[Bushmiller]

I wouldn't call the US a failed state. In my estimation the elements of state power rest on three legs.

The first and most important is possession of 'the bomb' and the means to deliver it. Going along with this of course is a powerful military as a necessary but not sufficient condition.

Next is financial power. The US dollar is still the default currency of the world and will likely remain so for some time due to the size of the US economy.

Finally is the technological base. In this area the US still is supreme but the competitors are much closer and are surpassing the US in many important areas. Since the 80's the US has disinvested in support of broader higher education with the result that there is now a notable shortage of technical people in many areas of science and technology.

As US superiority in the intellectual areas is surpassed the power of the state will depend more and more on 'the bomb' and the money sector. Recent events have shown the money markets have numerous weak points - black swans have been showing up with increasing frequency in recent decades, many foreseeable but some not. The military arm depends critically on science and technology and as the scientific capability of the nation erodes due to under-investment the competitors will eventually surpass the US.

Ultimately though demographics will win and the new focus of world power will be in the East, can't say when but it will be a while.

Rob

That sums it up exactly: It is also a shocking reality. The style may have subtly changed, but otherwise not much has changed since previous dominant empires sought to dictate to the world. Some were successful for a while such as the British Empire, the Roman Empire, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Chinese (they are positioning for a second bite of the apple) and some not so successful including France under Napoleon and Germany under Hitler. However I draw your and other readers attention to my long time signature and the words of Lord Acton or was William Pitt, the elder?

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

Some were successful for a while such as the British Empire, the Roman Empire, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Chinese (they are positioning for a second bite of the apple) and some not so successful including France under Napoleon and Germany under Hitler.So if we call the USA a dominant "empire", and acknowledge that they have actually been quite successful in dictating to the world (Chinese nationals who learn to speak English do so with an American accent - impact of the WWWeb), we also have to acknowledge that out of the countries your list, they have only outlasted Hitler's Chermany :D (France has colonised much of Africa and the South Pacific).

[rob streeper]

their gun culture.



The problem of gun violence is rooted in economic disenfranchisement. Resistance to tyranny is invoked, in most cases, speciously. The motivator IMO is atomization of the society and an 'Every man for himself' type of thinking. Most of the people in this category are disgruntled white guys holding on to the bottom rung of the economic ladder who use their guns as a kind of psychological security blanket. Look at the videos, most are in such poor physical shape that they struggle to pull themselves up off of the couch and are by no means fit enough to fight any battles.
The US has become a collection of individuals at the instigation of decades of poor government policy. Every rat is fighting with every other rat for the scraps from our masters table and some of these rats are armed and angry.

[FenceFurniture]

Most of the people in this category are disgruntled white guys holding on to the bottom rung of the economic ladder who use their guns as a kind of psychological security blanket. Look at the videos, most are in such poor physical shape that they struggle to pull themselves up off of the couch and are by no means fit enough to fight any battles.Hmmm. You must mean these boys.

473207

[rob streeper]

Summer weather apparently offers little protection. Impact of climate and public health interventions on the COVID-19 pandemic: A prospective cohort study | CMAJ (https://www.cmaj.ca/content/early/2020/05/08/cmaj.200920)

[yvan]

Hmmm. You must mean these boys.

473207

Yep, these guns are really the sort of weapons needed to combat Coronavirus. Bore 19 weapons I would guess ?!!!

[woodPixel]

Rob, I hope you get better soon. There is nothing worse than chasing off a long illness.

Not so long ago (so it feels!) I managed to catch the Bird Flue (H1N1) while taking my daughter to the hospital (glandular fever). She'd run herself into the ground with study.

I was there about 4 hours, tops. It was a quiet night, so there was no waiting in ED, straight in, bed, doctor, blood tests, diagnosis, out.

Shortly after I had the worst flu I've ever had in my entire life. It was horrendous. All descriptions of the effects would fail the Naughty Words lists of the forum. A swab test at the doctors confirmed the DNA was "the one from the hospital". THANKS medical system!

It was like a continuous and violent tequila hangover, during a heavy metal concert, while being beaten by blunt cudgels.... all while the room felt it went from Arctic freezing to Saharan heat.

It took weeks to get over properly.

Rob - give us updates. There are many here keen to hear of first hand experiences.

[rob streeper]

Another experience.

Paul Garner: For 7 weeks I have been through a roller coaster of ill health, extreme emotions, and utter exhaustion - The BMJ (https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/05/05/paul-garner-people-who-have-a-more-protracted-illness-need-help-to-understand-and-cope-with-the-constantly-shifting-bizarre-symptoms/)

[rob streeper]

This sounds familiar.

medRxiv 2020.02.28.20029181; doi: Highly ACE2 Expression in Pancreas May Cause Pancreas Damage After SARS-CoV-2 Infection | medRxiv (https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.02.28.20029181)

[rob streeper]

Some more showing Covid 19 induced pancreatitis.

Pancreatic injury patterns in patients with COVID-19 pneumonia Redirecting (https://doi.org/10.1053/j.gastro.2020.03.055)

COVID-19 presenting as acute pancreatitis Redirecting
(https://doi.org/10.1016/j.pan.2020.05.003)

[rob streeper]

and hyperglycemia

Hyperglycemia and the novel Covid-19 infection: Possible pathophysiologic mechanisms doi: 10.1016/j.mehy.2020.109699 (https://dx.doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.mehy.2020.109699)

[woodPixel]

Kawasakis in kids. Sterility in some men. Low sperm counts in others. Heart damage, lung damage, brain injuries....

Mutations... long term hiding... people getting "reinfected".

The gift that keeps on giving! :C

[rob streeper]

Pancreatitis and associated hyperglycemia now resolved. Also feeling stronger and rebuilding lost muscle mass. GI problems mostly resolved and vision near normal.

[Pagie]

Glad to hear you are on the mend.

[D.W.]

I communicate with my sister in California regularly and it appears the Governor is doing a great job - ignoring Trump and keeping the restrictions in place.

that's a bad joke. Newsome is incompetent, but he's lucky that foreign tourists don't see california as the same tourist destination that they see NYC. The epicenter of NYC (which includes where many work) is a huge tourist destination. I can't think of much other than a few points around LA (small areas that aren't economic centers, like hollywood) that attract tourists.

Trump incompetence doesn't make Newsome competent. They're both dweebs for different reasons.

Newsome has mastered never telling the truth or answering any question directly, though. Early in his career, he made the mistake of telling fibs to adam carolla (that he grew up poor when in fact, his dad was general counsel at a large corporation and his parents were divorced. So he claimed his mother's means made him poor when they didn't). He's full of stuff like that.

We can see the nastiness of trump, he shows it to everyone. People like Newsome are no better.

[woodPixel]

@Rob, any update on how you're doing mate?


I think of you poor buggers over there and the ... troubles... there are.

My son said to me only this morning that 1% of people in the USA now have the lurgie. Seems that 99% to go isn't such a welcoming number.

All, be safe.

[ian]

My son said to me only this morning that 1% of people in the USA now have the lurgie. Seems that 99% to go isn't such a welcoming number.
In the now closed thread on a very similar topic, BobL posted that serum testing in LA area about six weeks ago, indicated that around 1 in 8 persons had been exposed to Covid-19. BobL was projecting more than 40 million infections.
Myself? I think the actual number exposed is likely to be more than 100 million.

[FenceFurniture]

We can only hope that whatever the number is, it is +1 :;

[Lappa]

Interesting update from the US

“The news today is that hospitals are no longer to send their covid data to the Center for Disease Control but to the administration - this is a huge mistake as the CDC has opened its databases to all the researchers and modelers and this is how all the predictions are made. The administration database will not be open to researchers or modelers - we will see but it is most likely an attempt to hide the truth from the American public.”

[FenceFurniture]

Anything to get re-elected. Absolutely ANYTHING.

[ian]

Anything to get re-elected. Absolutely ANYTHING.
Today, in a non-woodworking discussion group I saw an election result where all the Republican State Governors -- who collectively control the slate of Electoral College votes -- can ensure Trump's re-election by not allowing their state's Electoral College votes to be counted. The Democrats need 270 EC votes, but if the Republican Governors direct, perhaps I should say persuade, the EC voters to spoil their ballots then the result comes down to a vote in Congress where each state gets just one vote. Trump then wins 26 to 24.

I've also seen a prediction (on Legaleagle.com ?) where Trump wins by making it too hard for democrat supporting voters to vote. Doing so in a few states would allow Trump to win without "cheating" as the US constitution doesn't guarantee equal access to the ability to vote.

[FenceFurniture]

Today, in a non-woodworking discussion group I saw an election result where all the Republican State Governors -- who collectively control the slate of Electoral College votes -- can ensure Trump's re-election by not allowing their state's Electoral College votes to be counted. The Democrats need 270 EC votes, but if the Republican Governors direct, perhaps I should say persuade, the EC voters to spoil their ballots then the result comes down to a vote in Congress where each state gets just one vote. Trump then wins 26 to 24.You mean the Federal Congress? Who is the person that votes?

[ian]

You mean the Federal Congress? Who is the person that votes?
Like most things in the US, it's complicated

The 12th Amendment to the US Constitution (which overrides the process set out in the Constitution itself) provides

For an Electoral College to elect the President and Vice-President of the US.
The numbers of members of the Electoral College was "frozen in stone" back in 1911 when the size of the House of Representatives was fixed at a maximum of 435 representatives. The addition of new states (e.g. New Mexico and Arizona in 1912, and Alaska and Hawaii in 1959) and the tripling of the US population since 1911 has largely decoupled Hose representation from State population. In addition to the electors representing the number of Representatives each State is entitled to, each state also gets two votes for each of its two senators.

Importantly, while individual voters in each state get a say in who is elected to the Electoral College, they don't actually vote for the President and Vice President and their decision is not final. The actual decision on how Electoral College votes are applied is up to the person who is State Governor at the time.

So the process of selecting the members of the Electoral College is controlled by the State Governor who in theory governs each state. Currently there are 26 Republican State Governors. The argument presented on the non-woodworking site postulates that if the democratic nominee does NOT secure the 270 Electoral College votes required to ensure election via the Electoral College process, then the Constitution kicks back in and the "president" is selected by the House of Representatives voting one vote per state (50 votes in total) and Trump wins 26 to 24.


It is only a convention that the US populace is allowed to vote for members of the Electoral College who go onto cast votes for the President / Vice President. As far as I can see there is no Constitutional requirement that a State's Electoral College representatives be selected by "the people".

Likewise, as far as I can see, there is no constitutional requirement that the winner takes all system apply to electoral college votes.


The above is separate to the other possibility that the ability of likely democratic leaning voters might be frustrated by lengthy poll delays that do not apply to likely republican leaning voters.

[FenceFurniture]

the Constitution kicks back in and the "president" is selected by the House of Representatives voting one vote per state (50 votes in total) and Trump wins 26 to 24.The part I can't get hold of is who is the one person per state that votes? A congress-person? If so who determines which 50 of them out of the 435 get to vote? In CA for example, as the most populous state, there are 53 members of Congress. One of them gets to vote and the other 52 don't? Who determines who that one person is?

If it was the Senate I could understand it because it would be the Senior Senator from each state (which may or may not be in Republican hands - the State Governors can easily be a different flavour to the Senators).

[FenceFurniture]

In any case, however that scenario might work, if it was taken then a couple of things might happen:
1. The protests over George Floyd may look like a Sunday picnic compared to what might happen if the voting books are effectively cooked, and
2. It seems likely the the Democrats will not only retain the House but also win the Senate as well - currently 2 Independents, 45 Dems, 53 Publicans, so the Dems need to win 5 Senate seat to gain control with Ind support, or 6 for absolute control. That would make another Impeachment extremely likely ASAP, and I doubt they'll have to search too hard for grounds. Being so early in the cycle they could take the proper amount of time this time around, and also control the calling of witnesses in the Senate. To get to a conviction vote of 67 may well still be problematic, as I don't see the Dems picking up around 20 Senate seats (of the 35 up for election, 12 are currently Dems, so they'd have to win 20/23 - nup).

Mind you, there might be enough Publican Senators who have had enough of the BS by then, and are willing to follow Romney's brave example.

[ian]

The part I can't get hold of is who is the one person per state that votes? A congress-person? If so who determines which 50 of them out of the 435 get to vote? In CA for example, as the most populous state, there are 53 members of Congress. One of them gets to vote and the other 52 don't? Who determines who that one person is?as far as I can tell, the decision of who the "House by State vote" is cast for is up to the discretion of the State's Governor.


If it was the Senate I could understand it because it would be the Senior Senator from each state (which may or may not be in Republican hands - the State Governors can easily be a different flavour to the Senators).
Under the 12th Amendment, each state senator gets to cast one vote for the Vice-President -- therefore the total is 100 votes. And an absolute majority (more than half the Senate membership) is required to confirm the VP.

[ian]

In any case, however that scenario might work, if it was taken then a couple of things might happen:
1. The protests over George Floyd may look like a Sunday picnic compared to what might happen if the voting books are effectively cooked
be careful using the words "effectively cooked"

as far as I can see, the States retain significant power and it would all be perfectly legal. And the US tends to favour "black letter law". If something is not explicitly illegal, then it's all a OK.

[FenceFurniture]

as far as I can tell, the decision of who the "House by State vote" is cast for is up to the discretion of the State's Governor. Well that could get very interesting. There are a number of Publican Governors that have denounced Trump. This list (https://www.usatoday.com/pages/interactives/elections/trump-support/) is a bit old I think (some of them are no longer in office - maybe it was after 2016 election?). However, a number of them are still there, and I doubt they have improved their opinion of him....it would only take one dissenter for 25-25, and two for 26-24 t'other way around.

I would be absolutely certain that if he does lose, and concedes defeat, that he will not attend the inauguration of Biden or co-operate with the handover. Doing so would be an act of maturity from a man-child.

This morning I had cause to be writing about so called "Pacific Jarrah" or Manilkara bidentata. It occurred to me it should be Trump's favourite tree...Biden? Tat-a! :D

[FenceFurniture]

Larry Hogan (Maryland Gov, Rep) might just be a fly in Trump's ointment:
The truth about Trump from one Republican governor - The Boston Globe (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/20/opinion/truth-about-trump-one-republican-governor/)

His term doesn't finish until 2023, but he can't stand again, due to term limits, so he could do as his conscience tells him too without too much fear of recriminations.

[D.W.]

Anything to get re-elected. Absolutely ANYTHING.

welcome to politics in the USA. meddling in the last election was overlooked as it was assumed it would sink Trump.

Then it was suddenly an issue worth addressing after the election because of the outcome (though it didn't have anything to do with the outcome).

States here keep their own data, it's not hard to get it if you want to see something from it. I suppose CDC is under direction of the executive branch.

We have three branches here.

The fourth branch (the voting branch) will solve this problem in november.

[D.W.]

Today, in a non-woodworking discussion group I saw an election result where all the Republican State Governors -- who collectively control the slate of Electoral College votes -- can ensure Trump's re-election by not allowing their state's Electoral College votes to be counted. The Democrats need 270 EC votes, but if the Republican Governors direct, perhaps I should say persuade, the EC voters to spoil their ballots then the result comes down to a vote in Congress where each state gets just one vote. Trump then wins 26 to 24.

I've also seen a prediction (on Legaleagle.com ?) where Trump wins by making it too hard for democrat supporting voters to vote. Doing so in a few states would allow Trump to win without "cheating" as the US constitution doesn't guarantee equal access to the ability to vote.

You can ignore that sensationalism, it'll never happen. Trump is down 15 points in the popular vote and you can't win the electoral vote. Hypotheticals about what may happen or "could" be legal are just sensationalist trash. pro wrestling what if type junk.

[D.W.]

Larry Hogan (Maryland Gov, Rep) might just be a fly in Trump's ointment:
The truth about Trump from one Republican governor - The Boston Globe (https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/20/opinion/truth-about-trump-one-republican-governor/)

His term doesn't finish until 2023, but he can't stand again, due to term limits, so he could do as his conscience tells him too without too much fear of recriminations.

A republican in maryland isn't really a republican. I don't know how familiar you are with the states, but republicans in maine and maryland aren't really republicans. They're registered republican to avoid running against democrats in primaries.

Maryland is a very wealthy state with only a small rural minority. The state itself is dependent heavily on federal funds and federal contracting. Maine is an oddball state - it's like a different country. Anti business (not a criticism of them, that's just their M.O. up there -everything local and anything that looks corporate is generally kicked out of the state) and individualistic but not in a MAGA type sense - more like in a throwback sense.

Biden is the next president. I wish the DNC would've taken candidate selection a little bit more seriously - we've had too many elderly and virtue signal politicians lately.

[D.W.]

..
so he could do as his conscience tells him too without too much fear of recriminations.

That's a quaint notion, and very naive.

[D.W.]

be careful using the words "effectively cooked"

as far as I can see, the States retain significant power and it would all be perfectly legal. And the US tends to favour "black letter law". If something is not explicitly illegal, then it's all a OK.

The reality of how it works is this:
* 48 states cast all of their electoral votes for the majority or plurality winner in an election
* maine and nebraska have slightly different rules (neither has many electoral votes).

Win the electoral college, and you win the election. The hoopla about this or that delegate turning, etc, is just that. If biden just stays quiet, he wins easily because all of the delegates in swing states will go the opposite direction vs. last election.

Citizens in states will not tolerate anything else with their electoral votes other than what was done before.

[D.W.]

...Romney's brave example.

That's funny, too. Romney, Bushes and Trump all hate each other. They have since primaries of the last election.

Romney and his relatives made money stripping value of every company they've come across away from all of the people who work for the companies so they can retain that value for themselves or establish an increased profit pattern and upsell the company on a follow-up deal (which permanently eliminates the employees and workers chance of ever being treated like humans again).

He's not that virtuous.

[FenceFurniture]

That's a quaint notion, and very naive.It does happen. Prolly not in the US these days though.



The fourth branch (the voting branch) will solve this problem in november.
Biden is the next president. Well the rest of the world certainly hopes so - and not necessarily because Biden is a good choice - he's just "the other guy"; the Non-Trump candidate).



we've had too many elderly and virtue signal politicians lately.Agreed. The next POTUS needs to be a highly skilled negotiator (with the US Public first so they calm-TF-down, then the ROtW so we can calm-TF-down). I'm not sure if that's Biden, but I don't think it was Warren or Sanders.



He's (Romney) not that virtuous.I'm not saying he's virtuous, or indeed that I either like or respect him - I'm very glad he did not become POTUS. Just saying he was the only one with the guts to stand up to Trump and the GOP in the impeachment, knowing full well he was the only one and that his voted counted for jack. The rest hid under their desks like scaredy cats in a thunderstorm.



The reality of how it works is this:
* 48 states cast all of their electoral votes....................
Win the electoral college, and you win the election. The hoopla about this or that delegate turning, etc, is just that.
In a normal situation yes, but these are bizarre times on a number of fronts. We've already seen him speculating about a 20 year (or something) Trump dynasty. Certainly hope it's the case that the election is conducted/won/lost within the usual parameters, otherwise it could get way out of hand over there, which will destabilise the ROtW, and embolden one or two other countries even more.


Citizens in states will not tolerate anything else with their electoral votes other than what was done before.So what would they do? Storm the WH as an anarchic mob? They tolerated Trump getting the EC votes with a 3mill popular vote deficit, and they tolerate the various gerrymanders, and they seem to tolerate the guff about mail voting being a bad thing even though the chief whiner does it, and they even tolerate having to queue for hours to vote a few times each election cycle, so.....
(by contrast - and this is with compulsory voting here, as it should be - it takes me about 10-15 minutes to vote including travel to/from, and plus Sausage Sandwich purchase and consumption time).

[ian]

The reality of how it works is this:
* 48 states cast all of their electoral votes for the majority or plurality winner in an election
* maine and nebraska have slightly different rules (neither has many electoral votes).

Win the electoral college, and you win the election. The hoopla about this or that delegate turning, etc, is just that. If biden just stays quiet, he wins easily because all of the delegates in swing states will go the opposite direction vs. last election.

Citizens in states will not tolerate anything else with their electoral votes other than what was done before.
what if in Republican controlled states it is easier to vote in the those counties that are Republican strongholds -- i.e. there are more places to cast your ballot -- than it is to vote in those counties that are Democrat strongholds -- i.e. as a Democrat supporter you have to queue for hours to cast your ballot.

Trump wins the "popular vote" and the EC because not enough Democrat supporters can afford to stand in line for 5+ hours to have their vote counted.

Source: Super Tuesday fury as ‘thousands of voters’ in black and Latino neighbourhoods forced to queue for hours in Texas | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/super-tuesday-results-2020-primary-texas-voter-suppression-lines-long-wait-queues-a9373886.html)
"Voters from predominantly black and Latino neighbourhoods were forced to wait for hours to cast their ballot in Texas (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/Texas) on Super Tuesday (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/super-tuesday) after long lines were reported at some polling stations.
Election officials in the Houston (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/Houston) area were forced to send in additional voting machines as thousands of people reportedly waited for up to five hours to vote at one station.


The long waits came after the closure of hundreds of polling stations across Texas by the Republican (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/republicans)-led state government since 2012."

In that scenario, would the "Citizens" in those states actually object to the practice?

[woodPixel]

Trump wins the "popular vote" and the EC because not enough Democrat supporters can afford to stand in line for 5+ hours to have their vote counted.

Source: Super Tuesday fury as ‘thousands of voters’ in black and Latino neighbourhoods forced to queue for hours in Texas | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/super-tuesday-results-2020-primary-texas-voter-suppression-lines-long-wait-queues-a9373886.html)
"Voters from predominantly black and Latino neighbourhoods were forced to wait for hours to cast their ballot in Texas (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/Texas) on Super Tuesday (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/super-tuesday) after long lines were reported at some polling stations.
Election officials in the Houston (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/Houston) area were forced to send in additional voting machines as thousands of people reportedly waited for up to five hours to vote at one station.
The long waits came after the closure of hundreds of polling stations across Texas by the Republican (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/republicans)-led state government since 2012."

In that scenario, would the "Citizens" in those states actually object to the practice?

I read the authorities used the opportunity to check each (Black/Latino) person for outstanding warrants! What a system! Nothing toxic there....



...by contrast - and this is with compulsory voting here, as it should be - it takes me about 10-15 minutes to vote including travel to/from, and plus Sausage Sandwich purchase and consumption time....

Well, that's what's wrong with the whole bloody USAnian voting system.... no frickin sausage sandwich. Idiots. ;)


On another slightly less harsh matter, I remembered the picture of some months (weeks?) ago of some prime libertarian comrades showing their dissent on mask wearing and being "told what to do"..... Wonder how many now have COVID19 or are dead of it? THAT would interest me.

"Give me liberty and give me death!" .... "err, OR death... not and... or" something something....


The more I read, the more I'm convinced that the USA is a failed state in the last stages of implosion.

[Greg Ward]

Failed State?
Imploding?
What?
Obviously you don't own Apple or Netflix or Facebook or Caterpillar or Tesla shares or understand the military power of the US.
We've had more political angst in Australia in the last ten years than a few years of Trump has generated in the US.
I'd suggest you spend the time in the garden and stop reading if that is your conclusion.
Regards
Greg

[FenceFurniture]

We've had more political angst in Australia in the last ten years than a few years of Trump has generated in the US.Jeez, I dunno about that Greg. Yes we've had some instability with the merry-go-round of PMs, but we've still only had one change of Govt since after 2007. Trump has managed to (deliberately, I might add) divide the country in two (or more?) in just three years, and purely for his own purposes. I've no doubt there were some cracks already there - probably some big ones, which is how he got up in the first place, but it seems to me that there are very bitter divisions now. That's lead to those outrageous scenes of mobs storming state houses of parliament armed to the gills with assault weapons.

Think it might be a while before dissatisfaction with our Govt comes to that.

[Lappa]

I just watched the news and heard the US had just had 67,000 new infections ( a record) then saw a guy in a US supermarket pull a gun because he was asked to wear a mask, saw a hall full of teenagers crowded together and refusing to follow directions and wear masks or socially distance; saw an adult saying it was all a conspiracy so she would never wear a mask then saw a medical guy saying if they would only listen re wearing masks and socially distancing they would have some hope of virus control.

I think there may be some truth in Woodpixel’s post.

[Tccp123]

Let's build a wall around Victoria!

[Fuzzie]

477156

[woodPixel]

I made a mistake. The USA isn't imploding.

Its disintegrating.

[Tccp123]

I made a mistake. The USA isn't imploding.

Its disintegrating.


But what about Victoria? The police have apprehended them trying to sneak into Queensland (god's own country) and I read that in SA they had to use police dogs to track them down!! These people are a menace!!!

[Greg Ward]

I always say to my wife, you can't take an single or even several incidents and generalise them.
I don't think she understands either, or maybe she doesn't want to.
Relax, The US is not imploding, it's just going through what freedom allows, if you want control by an authoritarian government, just go to Cuba and see what 50 years of socialism has spawned.
Relax
Greg

[Tccp123]

, if you want control by an authoritarian government, just go to Cuba and see what years of socialism has spawned.

Or failing that (because of COVID travel restrictions) just go to Victoria to see the same thing...

[woodPixel]

Anyone heard from Rob?

I dont know so many people there. Only a few. Some are completely unaffected and others are buggered.

There are thousands of personal stories on Reddit where people have retold their experiences. Grim, terrible, sad stuff.



But what about Victoria? The police have apprehended them trying to sneak into Queensland (god's own country) and I read that in SA they had to use police dogs to track them down!! These people are a menace!!!


Well, tongue in cheek, its probably the first time in history that Qld is facing voluntary immigration ;)

Honestly though, its getting out of hand. Aussies are acting like a bunch of numbats. Seriously, sneaking over a closed border during a global pandemic? In any other age you would have been SHOT.

I thought and felt Aussies were smart, resilient, hard, compassionate and look after their mates. We are instead acting like a bunch of frightened children and COMPLETELY screwing our mates in the process. Some of the stories in the last week are mind boggling.... hanging off backs of trains, sneaking down dirt back-roads, fake address changes for drivers licences, fleeing Melbourne to SA at the 11th hour like the idiots from Wuhan.

My statements above about the USA are what I fear for ourselves. We are not learning. We are not being smart, or sensible, or proper. Its shameful.

If we don't behave, then Ze Authorities will start to get... stroppy.

[FenceFurniture]

Anyone heard from Rob?Last email was 7-10 days ago. He's flat tack with his business.

[Tccp123]

If we don't behave, then Ze Authorities will start to get... stroppy.

Tried to cross a border lately? They are patrolled by men with guns! Unlike US citizens we have been disarmed and are at the complete mercy of the government. That's exactly why the US constitution allows citizens to bear arms, to counter corrupt government.

[Chief Tiff]

Tried to cross a border lately? They are patrolled by men with guns! Unlike US citizens we have been disarmed and are at the complete mercy of the government. That's exactly why the US constitution allows citizens to bear arms, to counter corrupt government.

I don’t have a problem with the above. We got the government we voted for as citizens; and although I’m sketchy on Australian political history I don’t think we’ve ever had a government that would be described as “corrupt”.

Both the State and Federal Police are enforcing the borders and no policeman on border control can fire on anybody attempting to break quarantine unless there is a clear and obvious threat to life. Their Use Of Force procedures and Rules Of Engagement are very clear on these things. What they will do is hunt them down and lock them up; hopefully with a large gentleman who thinks they’re very pretty. As does his mate.

[AlexS]

Tried to cross a border lately? They are patrolled by men with guns! Unlike US citizens we have been disarmed and are at the complete mercy of the government. That's exactly why the US constitution allows citizens to bear arms, to counter corrupt government.

Worked well there, hasn't it?

[D.W.]

I just watched the news and heard the US had just had 67,000 new infections ( a record) then saw a guy in a US supermarket pull a gun because he was asked to wear a mask, saw a hall full of teenagers crowded together and refusing to follow directions and wear masks or socially distance; saw an adult saying it was all a conspiracy so she would never wear a mask then saw a medical guy saying if they would only listen re wearing masks and socially distancing they would have some hope of virus control.

I think there may be some truth in Woodpixel’s post.

Thanks to the world of cell phones, you can see the three worst people each day out of 350 million and get some kind of false idea that's sort of a normal thing.

I'm 43, almost 44 - my entire life until a couple of years ago, either my dad owned guns and I lived with my parents or I owned guns (I turned them into guitars - in my single life, I had a target shooting hobby and reloaded. It was great. very similar to woodworking, in fact - building things, testing them out, etc. Now that I'm married with kids, I don't have time to just blow a day on that like I used, so trade for guitars makes sense. Like most men, I have no real regard for safety, so the lack of guns now makes me feel no different).

All that said, I catch public transportation in the city and I have seen small-time drug deals late at night (as in person to person) maybe twice. I have never once seen a gun brandish or used, or even heard gunfire. Cherry picking individual events and making it out like that's what it's like to live here is just farce.

What you're more likely to find here is neighbors talking to each other, not discussing politics, and perhaps doing a socially distanced event outdoors. The world of selected news stories is make believe.

Trump is a stump, but the idea that somehow the country is much more divided than it was under bush, or clinton or obama is false. The delivery system to pound people with stories can sure drive someone nuts if they want to dwell on a certain subject. I think that's a shame. Life is better without politics in general, especially on any kind of regular basis. My rule (as a centrist) is that if either political party gets on TV, nothing substantive will be said, so I change the channel. It never really has any effect on whats' going on at my doorstep. Just like listening to news about shootings between drug dealers in chicago.

25 years ago, I did have an uncle shoot himself. That sucked. I think he was finding a way out no matter what, though.

[Bohdan]

Thanks to the world of cell phones, you can see the three worst people each day out of 350 million and get some kind of false idea that's sort of a normal thing.


True. But how come we don't see these people in other parts of the world to the same extent.

[D.W.]

Maybe the rest of the world wants none, and we're OK with one or two in 350 million per day.

I'm sure you'll see these things in other parts of the world like russia or brazil, and once in a while in canada (though I think they have a tenth of the population that we do).

If anything like this happens in china, I don't think the video will ever get out - that's for sure.

[FenceFurniture]

Maybe the rest of the world wants none, and we're OK with one or two in 350 million per day. The very fact that it's "ok" to have one or two events per day speaks volumes about what is regarded as part of "normal", and how people in the Americas (both continents) seem to accept gun related violence as a "normal" part of "life". They appear to have become blasé about gun violence.

I don't know where this site (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country) gets its data from, but it is probably at least indicative. No data on Bolivia, but it's probably red too.


Have a look at the bubble chart here, below the table (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate) (which is declared as "incomplete" - no Russian stats, just for one omission.
477187

Compare Europe's stats to the US. Significantly larger population (+40%?) in Europe in a similar geographical size.

[D.W.]

The very fact that it's "ok" to have one or two events per day speaks volumes about what is regarded as part of "normal", and how people in the Americas (both continents) seem to accept gun related violence as a "normal" part of "life". They appear to have become blasé about gun violence.


Give the drama queen stories and admonishing a rest. Please.

[FenceFurniture]

I can't see anything dramatic in looking at statistics, except the figures themselves.

[aldav]

Cherry picking individual events and making it out like that's what it's like to live here is just farce.

Although it's nice that you personally haven't been touched by any of the worst atrocities of the gun culture in the US it's disturbing that you're apparently prepared to accept them as an unavoidable side effect of the citizens 'right' to own guns. Whilst we have episodes of 'baddies' shooting one another up here (like you we tend to be a little relaxed about this) the incidence of disgruntled/mentally unstable individuals murdering multiple innocent victims is virtually nonexistent compared to the appalling record in the US. I can only conclude that there are far too many ordinary citizens in the US who are in total denial of the real risk posed by the virtually uncontrolled ownership guns, either that or they're prepared to accept the murder of innocents as an acceptable trade off to maintain their 'rights'. Personally I'm happy to have a much reduced chance of being shot, either intentionally or by accident, in the first place.

[FenceFurniture]

Personally I'm happy to have a much reduced chance of being shot, either intentionally or by accident, in the first place.Does that mean you won't be going to Parliament House armed with an assault rifle if mask-wearing becomes mandatory?