Talcum powder as grain filler with shellac

[Lyle]

Could I ask for help ang guidance in using talcum powder as a grain filler.
Do I add it to a shellac and sand back,then repeat as required?
I am wanting to seal/fill some silky oak.
Or isthere a better commercial product.
I want to have the finish as "clear as water" as possible.
Any advice or guidance appreciated.
Thanks in advance

[Claw Hama]

The benevilant dictator has this in his very good book.
He sugests to use it in the early stages, a teaspoon to 100ml of shellac.
If you want to get into some nice finishes or just want a great reference book,
purchase one from him. Great to keep on the shelf.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

[Chief Tiff]

A Polishers Handbook (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/book.html)

[Cliff Rogers]

Read thess pages.
U-Beaut Polishes - WHITE SHELLAC (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dewaxed.html)
TALCUM POWDER (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/talc.html)

[Lyle]

Thank you for your replies.
Despite multiple "hints" prior to Chrissie,I only got a lump of coal,not the polishers guide...��
Looks like I'll have to get it myself. Maybe my birthday pressie to me.. ����
Does the guide go into "when things go wrong and troubleshooting ".

[auscab]

I don't want to show any dis respect for the forums products .
But can any one tell me how and why Talcum powder as a grain filler has worked for them in some time saving obviously well working way .
How was it applied and how fast did it speed up the process of filling a lot of tiny holes to firmly bring it up to the level of the final top finish ?

Traditionally Pumice was used .
There's a big difference between Pumice and Talc . Talk is soft and slippery . Pumice is rough and solid . One gives way to pressure more than the other .
Ive tested Talc in the grain compared to lots of Pumice embedded within shellac and with Silica , Ground sand, embedded within shellac . The Talk was crap . With pressure applied from a screw driver forced across the surface it caused de lamination . The other two worked well .
Has any one seen remarkable results from grain filling with Talk ? With Pumice and Silica the result was huge . Testing on a good test subject . Open grain US White Oak .

Rob

[Lyle]

Hello Rob.
Was the pumice etal ground into as fine a powder as the talc. Did you add it to the shellac as per the same as the talc mix?
With the delamination, was that under a shellac finish or some other type?
Thanks
Lyle

[Claw Hama]

Hi Rob
I used it at school back in the 70's, worked fine then. Talc is generaly or was, powdered alum stone or some
might call it soap stone. I don't think it was as abrsive as the powdered pumice.

[auscab]

Hi Rob
I used it at school back in the 70's, worked fine then. Talc is generaly or was, powdered alum stone or some
might call it soap stone. I don't think it was as abrsive as the powdered pumice.


Hi Claw . :)

Worked fine by doing what and how ?
How did you know the grain was filling faster than just bodying up using shellac and a rubber doing circles and figure eights ?

[auscab]

Hello Rob.
Was the pumice etal ground into as fine a powder as the talc. Did you add it to the shellac as per the same as the talc mix?
With the delamination, was that under a shellac finish or some other type?
Thanks
Lyle


Whats etal Lyle ?

The Pumice method shown to me was using a sprinkle every now and then during bodying up . So after the first fast brush coat and before finishing off. If you went to quick you could see a build up so you backed off . The Pumice is fine but nothing as fine as Talc . This was shown to me by old Polishers in a cabinet making workshop doing antique restoration . The polishers were the sort of old guys who started the trade as boys between 1914 and later .

A guitar makers method of grain filling with Pumice I looked into a little was very different to this . Rubbing pumice on raw wood with a rubber. I never quite got it and didn't need to . The first method above worked but was slow going . It did noticeably speed things though .

Then with the guitar addiction I had going for a while taking me further from my furniture roots I read further ways . Filling the grain with two pack glue and a credit card . These guys I watched did a lot of that . Working in such a way with horrible two pack is bad enough with a knife while gluing up bits . Squeezing it all over a job sounded like madness to me . I did try it once and that was enough . I still have the table I tried it on . Could never sell it it looked so bad. I sell a lot of tables . I know how to get them saleable . I just gave up on that one . Got lazy with it . To fix it I need to re plane it all out .

I built a guitar and french polished it bodying only with shellac filling the grain . No pumice

Ive done that a thousand times like that or with pumice on Tables and furniture restoration .

The credit card method with epoxy ( two pack ) had me thinking though so I started playing with open grained Oak , credit card, and oil based sanding sealer . First I made a heavy mix of talc mixed with sanding sealer and squeezed it into the grain with the credit card . I basically filled the grain totally and when dry sanded it flat . Then gave a coat of sanding sealer and polished . The dry very quickly polished shiny Oak had no strength with that much Talc filler . Any pressure de laminated the polish from the wood . I believe the talc was the problem .

So I tried the same with Silica . Its a similar thing to Pumice . This worked .The stronger material stood up to the job . No problems . It gives fast grain filling and is good on flat stuff . No good on legs and carved things . Takes to long to apply and get off clean with a full grain .

So its worth remembering, I thought .

I don't use it much though . If its Antique repairs I'm doing I get by with shellac and pumice if I really need it . The bodying with the shellac the right way is the key to fast grain filling . You hardly need Pumice except on very open grain stuff .

And on my new tables sanding sealer put on right and cut back well then shellac fills very fast . Shellac and bodying right finishes it off if its low.

Id say what I was doing with Talc was a bit extreme to its probable intended use by most . Id still like to know if or how it can be used to give a good fast result .




Here is a thread I did on a Mahogany table resto filling with Pumice a while back . Big Job !
Mahogany Extension Table Restoration (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f173/mahogany-extension-table-restoration-218733)

I put most of my new stuff up on instagram .

under
robertbrownfurniture

Rob

[Lyle]

Thanks Rob. etal is a shorthand for "and all the others".
Thanks for your replies.
I normally use wipe on poly as my finish.
I am looking for a grain filler to suit the wop.
I'll try the talc in some shellac and see how I go.
Lyle

[Lappa]

Lots of commercial ones available such as Feast Watson Sanding Sealer, if you don’t want to go down the road of mixing your own.

[auscab]

Thanks Rob. etal is a shorthand for "and all the others".
Thanks for your replies.


Your asking woodworkers for advice using shorthand ? F=or Fu===== sa==ke why ?

Any one who can really help you has spent more time looking in the bottom of an empty can than knowing anything about shorthand !

:)

[Lyle]

It isn't really shorthand but a common term used...... Oh never mind.... :rolleyes:
Thanks for all the replies.
I'll certainly try some of the suggestions.
AND I'm going to see if anyone in our group has the book. I'd like to check it out before getting it.
I might even try to get a demo day on finishing for our club.
Lyle

[Chief Tiff]

It isn't really shorthand but a common term used...... Oh never mind....

AARRGGHH!!!
Now you’ve awoken my inner CDO* spelling and grammar Nazi! :doh::doh::doh: It’s TWO words (albeit one is an abbreviation) and as they are in a foreign language (Latin) it usually written in italics.

My thanks to Auscab et al who have supplied some interesting new info on this topic. I have the Polishers Handbook and find it most informative. Except the jokes. They may be bon-bon factory rejects.


*CDO is like OCD, but has the letters in the correct alphabetical order. As they should be.

[homey]

Digressions aside, many thanks to Rob for the very interesting and helpful info. :2tsup:

Brian

[Lyle]

I guess I am trying to find a silver bullet finish or technique.
But as I am improving my skills it seems you just keep trying to get better tools and such.
I am really appreciative of all the help from all on this forum. :2tsup:
Lyle

[Cliff Rogers]

So going on what Rob auscab has found, maybe this is worth a try. TRIPOLI POWDER (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/tripoli.htm)

[Claw Hama]

Lyle, yes use the same way you would normaly with shellac, circles, figure eights etc, just the same but the slightly thicker mixture should
fill the cracks faster. I don't usually use fillers, I just do more coats and sand between. If the timber is that cracked etc I most probably would
not use it to start with. Cedar is a little anoying sometimes but mostly just more coats and sanding. Slower is usually better, the same with abbreviations. Long hand is better than short :?:question: Neils book is great, I might only get it down every two years but has lots of very helpful
information it it from someone who knows how to do it.

[auscab]

I guess I am trying to find a silver bullet finish or technique.
But as I am improving my skills it seems you just keep trying to get better tools and such.
I am really appreciative of all the help from all on this forum. :2tsup:
Lyle


Are you polishing just using shellac Lyle?

As in stain or leave natural . Coat and build up with shellac . Then finish off with oil , and or wax ?

Forgetting the Talc / Pumice thing for now.
Grain filling with shellac has a lot to do with the way you use it . Once you figure it out things get a lot easier.
Just Shellac fills grain . The circle and figure eight work you do while bodying up is what does it . Its pushing the soft shellac sideways into the grain holes.

If you just give something 20 brush coats and sand back, it doesn't work for a number of reasons I wont go into .
But if you did give something 20 brush coats and then after it dried you tried to wash it off with Metho . Turning the shellac soft and rubbing in circles, You would see the shellac go flat and sideways fill the grain and if you stopped at the right point and straightened off you would have a pretty good place to re start the polish job . A thin job with the grain full is what a polisher is aiming to do . Never Thick and gloopy .

When I worked in the workshop where we did tons of stripping and re polishing , we had a 40 ft shipping container load from the UK to work through each year. And all the local restoration that would come in . The amount of times we stripped and saw the grain choke and fill this way while washing off a polish job . We would stop and talk about it . We were using stripper though not Metho to strip . And unfortunately the pieces were then to be deep sanded , stained , grain filled and french polished. It's what made it sell in the mid 70s. All Victorian Mahogany and Walnut mostly . With a bit of Bazillion Rosewood , Oak and the rest .

So there's an easier way than that and that is . Seal in your colour job if there is one with a couple of brush coats , let it dry . Then start putting on shellac to fill the grain . You just lay on quite a bit . If its with a rubber I might go 6 wet coats , letting the last just dry enough so the next will go on and not wipe off the last . With those on the timing is the next important step . let all the dry come back the next day and you've wasted the effort .
Attack it to fast and the whole lot may wipe off with a wet rubber .
Let it sit between 5 to ten minutes at most and with a wet rubber start off straight then go into rounds and eights on the soft stuff underneath . You have to push firmly and work the stuff without ripping it up . The friction and the pressure will be pushing the soft stuff around . You cant really see it . A fresh dip of shellac on the rubber keeps it sliding . If its a table you give the top a break and do the rails then legs then back to the top .

You can only go for so long adding and working before the job is so sticky a fly would get trapped if it landed on it . Any more and you risk pulling the polish off back to raw wood . You let is sit for a day .

Next day give it a rub back with 400 grit and a linseed oil and turps soloition 20/ 80 . Cut it back as hard as you can without touching the colour job / stain or wood .

Then give it another Body, the same as the last . With the first body you will hardly notice a difference with the open grain . It is there but not for you to see yet. When you finish this second body you will now see a difference .

It only takes three good goes on most woods .

Cut back hard with the O/T mix and 400 on the second body next day . Then do the third .

At the end of this you will be pretty happy with your self .

You should have a full grain and a thin job .

Let it dry , Next day a cut back and with much thinner polish the finishing off starts . Its a small version of the bodying with much thinner shellac ,. It gets a lot thinner towards the end and I use linseed oil to get it sliding and shining .

One thing I rarely use for this is a bleached or Blonde shellac by its self . Never liked the way it works.
Flake or button shellac works better but the colour of it only suits Mahogany or Red cedar work . Red/ Brown and dark .

I do use a lot of blonde though because I'm polishing colours I don't want to see go Amber . So I always add some flake to the blonde . 10 to 20 % . It works better , is stronger and at that strength its not changing the colour .

Happy new year .

Rob