The Lucky Country

[echnidna]

We used to be known as the lucky country.

I think thats fast fading. There was a time you could change jobs, even trades as long as you were competent to do the work.

But the excessive influence of teachers on our governments means you have to be "trained" at a school nowadays. So what if the qualification isn't worth the paper its written on

Tritonjapan (Steve) said in another thread
"In older cultures, Japanese or European, instead of the jacks of all trades that were required in the pioneering cultures, specialists were called for. There is too much of Theo in me for that. I have no desire to be perfect at anything, I want to be able to do a stack of things reasonably well

All us older aussies know just what Steve means.

Is it possible to recover some of the good old ways?

[ozwinner]

Errh, NO

You need a Uni Degree to flip burgers at Maccas these days.

I, like yourself am multi, multi skilled.
I can do any manual task I am set.
Not too good on the academic side of things, but, give me the raw materials and a plan/drawing, and I can make anything.
Im not bragging either, just a fact.

Al:cool:

[E. maculata]

Yep Bob,
much rather have a jack of all as a day to day co-worker, than a narrow focus specialist, specailists can be called in for the few hours they're needed annually.

[namtrak]

........give me the raw materials and a plan/drawing, and I can make anything.
Im not bragging either, just a fact.

Al:cool:

Excellent, I'll you email you the plans to our house and you can finish the reno for us!!

[lesmeyer]

Al,

not sure if I agree with you being not so academic.
Take your typing skills as an example.
You're almost up to 5000 posts.
Maybe you can become a typist.
Regards
Les
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

[echnidna]

but Al don't have a Tafe degree to prove he can type!!!!!!!!

[Gingermick]

QA systems. Many, many companies around the world will not deal with you unless you have quality assurance systems in place. One would be adequate training / qualifications for the staff doing the work.

[ozwinner]

Excellent, I'll you email you the plans to our house and you can finish the reno for us!!

Email me the plans, and Ill email you the finished reno.

Al :p

[rick_rine]

42% of doctors in Tasmania are foriegners . Why cant we educate our own ? I really dont understand it .
They talk of training all the kids for IT jobs . What about plumbers , builders , joiners , carpenters , tilers , concretors . They say they are teaching beyond the basics . Well gosh just teach them the basics to start with I say . I had a student in yr 10 and I said whats 1 plus 1 and no word of a lie she said " your confusing me " she couldn't answer it . Here in Tassie we are lowest in all 3 major subjects , maths , english and science . But hey we are "literate and can get in touch with our inner feelings by understanding the dynamics of union between the various multi-media graphics .
Gone are the days of learning your times tables by rote .
I'm turning into a grumpy old man I think , must be that lead paint in our cots oz .

[craigb]

Here in Tassie we are lowest in all 3 major subjects , maths , english and science .

Yeah, but you're number one in banjo playing ;) :D

(I'm only joking)

[ozwinner]

I'm turning into a grumpy old man I think , must be that lead paint in our cots oz .

:p Ahhhh, and only 41 too..

Al :D

[DavidG]

Gone are the days of learning your times tables by rote Not true. But it does depend on which school the kids go to.
Public education has failed the kids.
Some private schools still do things the old and tested ways.
That is why the public schools run campaigns against the private schools. They do not like to be shown up. :rolleyes:

The world has become a paper trail. You must prove on paper that you are qualified. The problem has occured since hiring and fireing was taken from the shop floor and handed to a bunch of pencil pushers who would not know what they are talking about.
Having attended many PS meetings over the years, I firmly believe that the less you know the more important you become. ;)

Ok time to go. [Rant off]

[bitingmidge]

42% of doctors in Tasmania are foriegners . Why cant we educate our own ? I really dont understand it .

(snip)

Here in Tassie we are lowest in all 3 major subjects , maths , english and science .

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Rick, speaking as one brain surgeon to another, that's one of the wittiest posts I've seen in a while.

Or do you really not understand the relationship between maths english and science and medical qualifications? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[bitingmidge]

The world has become a paper trail. You must prove on paper that you are qualified. The problem has occured since hiring and fireing was taken from the shop floor and handed to a bunch of pencil pushers who would not know what they are talking about.


I have a number of bits of paper. Quite a large number.
I work with a bloke who also has quite a few.

We were talking only last week about the number of times anyone has actually asked us to produce them. In over thirty years, neither of us has ever been asked to prove we had done what we said we had done, and I reckon that we aren't alone.

Even if you were asked, I bet no one would try to prove the thing wasn't a forgery.

Send $10.00 and I'll fix you up with a custom set of documents to suit whatever job you are going for. The pencil pushers will never know.

Cheers,

P :D

[silentC]

Well, I come from a generation that was born never knowing what it was to be gruntled.

I've got a coupla bits of paper but neither of them has ever made a lot of difference. It gets me the interview but then I have to do the rest. I interviewed a guy once and he had a lovely bit of paper but he couldn't pronounce the name on it, so he didn't get the job.

I yearn for the days you speak of, Bob, although I never really knew them myself, at least not as an adult. Trouble is, there's too much good stuff I'd have to give up too. I hate that cake clause....

[Barry_White]

I wont talk about my 35 occupations I've had in my lifetime that I do not have any papers for but carried out successfully without ever getting the sack.

My grandson was doing a two year Tafe course in computers both in software and hardware and also learning how to write webpages. He became so frustrated with the course because he knew more than his teachers and wasn't learning anything and was showing the teachers how to do things and spent more time helping the other students to do the work.

He ended up leaving before getting his certificate and went and got a job working and running the service dept for a guy building computers, repairing them and fixing up their software problems and setting up networks. He writes professional website on the side.

The biggest problem he has now that he doesn't have his papers.

[E. maculata]

Well, I come from a generation that was born never knowing what it was to be gruntled.


Ahem, speak for yourself o Silent one, I've been gruntled heaps of times, and plan on gruntling for many years to come. ;)

[barnsey]

I got a trade in aircraft instrument making :D

Pretty limited field huh?

Spent 30 years in warehousing and distribution, spoke at syposia, was well regarded as knowing my apples. The best thing I do now is turn all sorts of timber, some for a profit but I love the love jobs as well.

My father was a boilermaker by trade so I have that background as well - built a sabot sail boat at 16 and have rebuilt a number of cars including my 1st car - a Morris Minor.

Qualifications - Trade Certificate - Associate Diploma in Business Administration

The qualifications mean very little - Life skills are something that is totally undervalued - I can read and troubleshoot Cobol and Basic, Heat treat steel and numerous other engineering jobs but not certified, plumbing, electrical, pneumatic. Mind you no-one wants to know these days - coz they want a piece of paper that really just says we've taught them a heap of useless #### and theres no assessment of ability at all.

Okay I'm off the soapbox now and a pox on all those who insist on their little pieces of paper

[silentC]

Ahem, speak for yourself o Silent one, I've been gruntled heaps of times, and plan on gruntling for many years to come. ;)
C'mon Bruce, we don't know we're alive. Haven't you been told? ;)

[silentC]

Just listening to the news on the radio. Govt wants to change apprenticeship visa rules to allow employers to take on apprentices from overseas. Unions say it will deprive local young people of jobs because it will give employers access to cheap labour from Asia and elsewhere. Vanstone says it will help employers who are having trouble finding skilled staff locally. Hello? Skilled staff? Isn't that the point of an apprenticeship - to become skilled?

Hell in a handbasket....

[E. maculata]

C'mon Bruce, we don't know we're alive. Haven't you been told? ;)

I was alive once when I was a youngun but on the way to the snow trudging through 20 miles of freezing schools, my horse died & I had to drop it, then when I finally got there I got six of the best for losing my horse.
I have noticed lately that all my mates are looking like old geezers though...........hmm wonder what's goin on there? :eek:

[silentC]

I have noticed lately that all my mates are looking like old geezers though
Yeah, I've noticed that too. I've got to stop drinking at the Golf Club....

[Ashore]

The Sun Herald ran an article yesterday quoting a mob who do background checks for employers said 1 in 20 had criminal records 60% lied about their criminal record and up to 50% of resumes were falsified in some way including not having a degree etc

This company started off 3 years ago with two workers and now has 55 employees doing checks
I wonder what qualifacations you need to do that



The trouble with life is there's no background music.


Ashore

[shrek]

I have noticed lately that all my mates are looking like old geezers though...........hmm wonder what's goin on there? :eek:

Same thing, and every morning when I look in the mirror, this funny looking old bloke who looks a bit lik my dad keeps looking back.

[Bodgy]

I think we're still, marginally, the lucky country, but not as lucky as we were.

HI works in nursing. She says that the new University trained Sisters are completely useless, as compared to the old apprenticeship scheme who became productive from about 2nd year on job. She also says that these degree nurses have enormous and totally un-realistic expectations of the job. They quickly become frustrated, then dis-illusioned, then leave.

Consequently we have nowhere near enough nurses and those that are there have a mean age of over 50! This makes it's contribution to the gigantic cluster frcc that is today's healthcare.

Nobody can stuff up a working system like government, well meaning do-gooders and status seeking administrators and Union officials. These latter two were desperate to move from 'trade' status to 'professional' and killed the old system stone dead.

[namtrak]

Email me the plans, and Ill email you the finished reno.

Al :p

No worries and I'll email you a photo of the cheque :D

[rick_rine]

I was alive once when I was a youngun but on the way to the snow trudging through 20 miles of freezing schools, my horse died & I had to drop it, then when I finally got there I got six of the best for losing my horse.
I have noticed lately that all my mates are looking like old geezers though...........hmm wonder what's goin on there? :eek:


Oh how I envy your easy childhood . We lived 20 miles from school and the day my horse died I'd only just left home . Had to drag it to school and back home again .
Rick

[womble]

Oh how I envy your easy childhood . We lived 20 miles from school and the day my horse died I'd only just left home . Had to drag it to school and back home again .
Rick


What bliss to have a horse! We had to make do with a unicycle. For seven of us. And it didnt have a wheel! Tell kids today that and they don't believe you...

[jow104]

Well I am an experienced flight simulator and I am just waiting for the day when the air hostess says the Captain has dropped dead can anyone please take over.

Englishmen can still do anything ;)

[rick_rine]

Now the federal Government is talking about visas for "skilled worker " Plasterers , smash repair workers . Well golly-gee surely we should be able to train Australians for these occupations in the lucky country .

[kiwigeo]

I'm hearing alot of talk about teachers being responsible for today's kids not having alot of "basic" skills. Some thoughts:

1 Teachers don't have a lot of control over what they teach..the curriculums are set by higher powers.

2. Teachers arent the only people responsible for a child's education. Education also goes on in the home. In the "old" days children got taught discipline and respect and other basic personal skills at home. For some reason alot of parents have handed that task over to the teachers. It's no wonder teachers are having trouble doing their jobs properly...they're doing their own job as well as that of the parents.

3. How many parents who complain about the standard of their children's schooling actually do something about it...ie, get involved with the school's PTA.

[kiwigeo]

Consequently we have nowhere near enough nurses and those that are there have a mean age of over 50! This makes it's contribution to the gigantic cluster frcc that is today's healthcare.



Bodgy, my wife is also a nurse with a Masters Degree in Nursing and about 24 years experience. She did however get her original practicing certificate in Japan by working her way through a nursing college attached to a hospital (bit like old system here in Oz).

While I agree that the practical skills of nurses entering the work force is not as good as it used to be, the way they've trained has nothing to do with job/salary expectations and its certainly not the main reason nurses are leaving the profession. They're leaving because the remuneration has not increased in line with the demands and responsibilities that come with the job. Add to that the pathetically low nurse to patient ratios in a majority of hospitals and you have to ask yourself why are the nurses that are still in the job sticking it out?

My wife sticks it out mainly because she feels an obligation towards the people she's looking after....I've told her shes crazy but its her call. She'll quit very soon though because of back problems...brought about by never having enough help on hand when patients have to be lifted.

Nurses should be paid alot more and alot of people need to get themselves out of the "Florence Nightingale" mindset....this outdated idea that nurses do nothing except change beds and clean up s%%t.

Cheers Martin

[womble]

I'm hearing alot of talk about teachers being responsible for today's kids not having alot of "basic" skills. Some thoughts:

1 Teachers don't have a lot of control over what they teach..the curriculums are set by higher powers.

2. Teachers arent the only people responsible for a child's education. Education also goes on in the home. In the "old" days children got taught discipline and respect and other basic personal skills at home. For some reason alot of parents have handed that task over to the teachers. It's no wonder teachers are having trouble doing their jobs properly...they're doing their own job as well as that of the parents.

3. How many parents who complain about the standard of their children's schooling actually do something about it...ie, get involved with the school's PTA.


1. true, if a teacher started to teach maths by rote learning as an example they'd be having a chat with the principal pretty soon after...

2. the reason the job of 'teaching' respect etc has fallen to teachers is because many parents don't have a well established value system themselves, plus the role models these days leave a lot to be desired...its a complex issue to be sure

3. ironic that many people call for a return to corporal punishment, so long as their own little angels dont get it because they never do anything wrong. Had an incident with one of the schools here recently with bullying, the parents were quite vocal in threatening all sorts of action for 'unfair' treatment of their kids in a bashing case...apparently didnt know that their children were often in trouble at school anyway for similar actions...

[Bodgy]

While I agree that the practical skills of nurses entering the work force is not as good as it used to be, the way they've trained has nothing to do with job/salary expectations and its certainly not the main reason nurses are leaving the profession. They're leaving because the remuneration has not increased in line with the demands and responsibilities that come with the job. Add to that the pathetically low nurse to patient ratios in a majority of hospitals and you have to ask yourself why are the nurses that are still in the job sticking it out?



Respectfully have to disagree. I'm told that throughout the Uni course the concept of 'professional' is drummed into the students, at Uni they mix with others who have a professional career in front of them. However, once these nurse graduates (having paid for their degree) hit the wards, they are soon dis-illusioned. As you say, the abyssmal pay and hours are a major contributor, their Uni mates are making more $$, progressing their careers and socialising during normal hours. These nurse graduates, however, find that they must perform menial tasks, their chances of advancement are very poor (the Nurse Practitioner concept still has a long way to go) and however experienced and skilled they may be, they are still outranked by a spotty doctor, fresh out of med school. There is no real career structure.

My point is that the apprentice system has its place, and, I beleive, particularly in Nursing. From your first paragraph, I think you may agree.

[shrek]

Nurses should be paid alot more and alot of people need to get themselves out of the "Florence Nightingale" mindset....this outdated idea that nurses do nothing except change beds and clean up s%%t.

Cheers Martin

Trouble is, someone needs to change beds and clean up s%%t.

[anthonyd]

I wont talk about my 35 occupations I've had in my lifetime that I do not have any papers for but carried out successfully without ever getting the sack.


Barry,

That might have worked 'in the old days' but thanks to our friends in the law field and their so called 'progress'. One cannot do that these days.

How about someone who says that they are a electrician when they are not and wire up a house. They might do a perfect job, but when the day comes when someone in that house opens up a light switch and electrocutes themselves guess who is up for neglegent homicide because they traded without the correct papers?

Same could be said for just about any profession - the civil engineer with a degree who's bridge collapsed when a 10 ton truck ignored the sign that dais 5 ton only etc...

Might not even be a criminal offense - how about someone who lies on their resume and says that they have the qualifications to be in maketing (do you actually need something other than a good liver to do this?). So teh company hiures them and at some point they stuff up a multi million marketing campain. Comany does a check and finds out that there resume was false and probably sues for the value of that marketing campain.

In all honesty that piece of paper is not so much to get the job, but also to cover yourself once you have got it.

Myself I am educated as an electronic engineer and I too have never been asked to present the piece of paper.

Most people will probably agree with me that that piece of paper is good for your first job - thereafter your experience and achievements count far for for the next jobs!

[Bodgy]

the qualifications to be in maketing (do you actually need something other than a good liver to do this?).



I say Anthony, steady on old man!

Naturally a good liver is essential to cope with the onerous social obligations. Marketing chaps are all out of the top drawer, you know. You make no mention whatsoever of all the other sterling characteristics required, a total absence of ethics, the ability to seriously present the most ludicrous ideas with a straight face, the talent to always avoid measurement and re-direct blame and, most importantly, to genuinely believe that your activities actually matter and are vital to the success of the business.

How many fellows do you see around that can fit that bill, eh?

God God! The effrontery, I say, 'nother G&T overhere. Was that a horse that just farted or Lady McMahon?........

[Pete J]

Good evening all

I reckon you people are getting old. Like me.

It ain't what is used to be like - is it?

Wasn't it much better in the old days?

No it wasn't. And if we keep on getting better, and better educated as we are as a whole, it will never be like the 'old days'.

Thank heavens.

Regards

[kiwigeo]

Trouble is, someone needs to change beds and clean up s%%t.

Shrek, you miss my point....I said the popular public perception is that this is all they do. Nurses today are expected to have a wider range of skills and take on more responsibilities than their predecessors. I think most people would agree that remuneration should reflect the skills and responsibilities that come with a job. In the case of nursing this isn't the case.

Cheers Martin

[kiwigeo]

My point is that the apprentice system has its place, and, I beleive, particularly in Nursing. From your first paragraph, I think you may agree.

Agree with some of what you say Bodgy but I disagree with the above. The apprentice system probably sufficed in the past but nurses these days are required to have a lot more skills and take on more responsibilites than in the past. As an example...there's a strong move to have nurses take over many of the duties currently carried out by doctors....eg prescribing pharmaceuticals for patients, etc.

Being Japanese, my wife has experienced nursing both in Japan and here in Australia. In her opinion the standard of nursing here is much better and to a large degree its due to the different training the nurses go through..in Japan it's largely an apprentice style system like we used to have here. Here in Australia there's alot more academic training involved.

Cheers Martin

[maglite]

Upon reading some of the lessons that my staff were to undertake at a course designed especially for cleaners, i came across this:

"The correct way to utilise full body mechanical function to successfully yield all contents of a waste receptacle"

A greenie to the first that can tell me what the above actually means!!!

[shrek]

Nurses today are expected to have a wider range of skills and take on more responsibilities than their predecessors. I think most people would agree that remuneration should reflect the skills and responsibilities that come with a job. In the case of nursing this isn't the case.

Cheers Martin

The trouble is, 80 - 90% of nursing is still about changing beds, cleaning up the s%%t, tending to the patients needs and providing direct patient care and you dont need a degree to do these type of duties. What makes a good nurse is his/her attitude to the patients and their caring nature. This cant be taught at university. As far as renumeration goes, a 1st year Registered Nurse has a base salary of $44,000. P.A. plus penalty rates (plus 7 weeks annual leave). Most Nursing staff in the hospital I work at earn about $60 - 70 K per year. While this isn't as much as a lot of people get these days, it isn't peanuts.

Having worked in hospitals for 18 years, in clinical areas and now management, I have witnessed the problems that come with university educated nurses compared with nursing staff who were hospital trained. Earlier this year I was on a ward area when a new graduate nurse came up to the clinical nurse consultant and stated that the patient who they were looking after had soiled themselves and they wanted to know who they had to call to clean them up. You should have seen his face when he was informed that it was his job. That staff member only lasted 6 months before he was able to use his nursing degree to find a job in another area of health. As he said when he left, he didn't spen 4 years at uni to be cleaning up other peolpes s%%t. As I said earlier, someone still needs to clean it up.

[barnsey]

As I said earlier my apprenticeship in aircraft instrument making would be next best to useless these days with the advances in electronic systems etc. That is why the apprenticeship was modified to include a lot of that theory and practice to the trade and you still spent a significant part of your time working under the instruction of qualified people to round out your experience. Don't really see a difference in any trades really, they have changed and they have been modified to adapt to those changes.

The hairy legged bra burners in that trade decided they wanted to get some recognition for their colleagues and hence flogged of all the training facilities from the hospital - bet that got smiles from the polies :rolleyes: Must have been a ball biter of a cost justification document :o

From a hairy legged wood turner - you know I still have to clean up the s#$t

[AlexS]

Upon reading some of the lessons that my staff were to undertake at a course designed especially for cleaners, i came across this:

"The correct way to utilise full body mechanical function to successfully yield all contents of a waste receptacle"

A greenie to the first that can tell me what the above actually means!!!
How to empty the bin

[Clinton1]

Bob,
Those piece of paper aren't imposed by teachers having too much influence on goverment. The whole thing is driven by industry.

For example the "Manufacturing Industry Skills Council Ltd " is the Advisory body that tells the Aust Government (thru Dept Education and the Aust. National Training Authority) what to put in the Manufacturing Trades TAFE courses. They are:
"Manufacturing Skills Australia (MSA) represents over 75,000 manufacturing businesses employing almost one million Australians. We are their voice and the source of information on skills and workforce development through vocational education and training. We assist industries, enterprises, and their workforces to integrate skill development with business goals and support high quality, nationally recognised training products and services." They go on to state that they are a representative body, made up of industry reps and are not-of-profit.
In other words the Manufacturing Industry got sick of the previous "skills and knowledge" trainining providers for their employees and got organised, and set up all the TAFE Courses in Manufacturing. It is industry driven.

Employers know that a piece of paper is only a recognition that you have passed certain benchmarks on Knowledge and Skill in a particular area. From there they then need to know job history and check references to see what you can actually do. There is a difference between Learning and Competency.
Without the piece of paper you run the risk of limiting your job opportunities to those that know you and that you have a good reputation with. Without that qualification you can quickly become irrelevant to employers.

I get a bit shirty when I hear about the "good old days". I missed them when I started out and frankly things have never been better then right now. Low unemployment, good economy and so on. To me the "good old days" set this country up for the high unemployment, recession and high interest rates that made things very difficult for me 15 years ago when I started out and could get no other job than labourer.
We all see things differently I guess.

[anthonyd]

Bodgy,

Sorry just added the marketing thing for humour purposes.

Personally I dont know exactly what marketing do - all I know is that in engineering we strive to ensure that the marketing department do not get access to any magazines since they are normally followed by requests to build all sort of new fangled stuff!

[shrek]

Upon reading some of the lessons that my staff were to undertake at a course designed especially for cleaners, i came across this:

"The correct way to utilise full body mechanical function to successfully yield all contents of a waste receptacle"

A greenie to the first that can tell me what the above actually means!!!

How to successfully manage your time during your toilet break.

[maglite]

How to successfully manage your time during your toilet break.

Close Shrek, but no banana.....sorry :)

[Auld Bassoon]

I had a student in yr 10 and I said whats 1 plus 1 and no word of a lie she said " your confusing me " she couldn't answer it .

Hi Rick!

Sounds like another Blasted Pollie in the making!

I worked in Canberra for a couple of years in the consulting field and met a few; most of whom ought to be introduced to the rude end of a blunderbuss!

No wonder voting is compulsory here...

Cheers!

[jow104]

I want higher interest rates :)

I'm a pensioner. I also paid high inerest rates years ago thinking one day my boat would come in.

Seriously though some things were better in the old days.

[echnidna]

Seriously though some things were better in the old days.

Gotta agree with that John but somethings were pretty crummy too!!

[boban]

Barry,

That might have worked 'in the old days' but thanks to our friends in the law field and their so called 'progress'. One cannot do that these days.

How about someone who says that they are a electrician when they are not and wire up a house. They might do a perfect job, but when the day comes when someone in that house opens up a light switch and electrocutes themselves guess who is up for neglegent homicide because they traded without the correct papers?

Same could be said for just about any profession - the civil engineer with a degree who's bridge collapsed when a 10 ton truck ignored the sign that dais 5 ton only etc...

In all honesty that piece of paper is not so much to get the job, but also to cover yourself once you have got it.



With all due respect to you Anthony, this is not an accurate statement.

I dont care that you criticise lawyers, go for your life. But in order to sue someone for negligence, you need to prove that they were negligent amongst other things. Not that they were not properly qualified.

If you were not negligent you wont be liable for anything other than for offences relating to any trading without the proper qualifications.

[Bodgy]

Anthony.

You say you have little idea about marketing nor what they do, ergo you work for an organisation with an absolutely superb marketing arm.

The absolute, totally focussed, ball breaking, furkin imperative of marketing is not to be measured. If the rest of the company knows not what you do, it becomes a bit hard to measure your effectiveness (or if I was being paid 'efficacious quotient')

They deserve a raise!

[kiwigeo]

The trouble is, 80 - 90% of nursing is still about changing beds, cleaning up the s%%t, tending to the patients needs and providing direct patient care and you dont need a degree to do these type of duties.



Shrek,

A basic practical training based system is ok for basic tasks such as the ones you describe above with the exception of "tending to the patients needs". A patient's needs extend beyond simply looking after the patients physical health. As I've pointed out, the mission statement of todays nurses is not the same as it was in the past.....

How about things like dealing with DNR or hospice patients? How about a working knowledge of the workings of the various right to die legislations in each state? How about medical ethics? How about dealing with a patient and/or his/her family asking questions about death and dying?

These are all issues which nurses in todays hospitals have to deal with and they are issues that get covered as part of university nursing courses.

As Ive said I agree that the level of practical training amongst uni trained nurses needs improvement.....but to me the solution is to fine tune the uni training so that more time is spent in practical training. Doing away with the uni training system all together would IMO be a backward step.

Cheers Martin

[anthonyd]

With all due respect to you Anthony, this is not an accurate statement.

I dont care that you criticise lawyers, go for your life. But in order to sue someone for negligence, you need to prove that they were negligent amongst other things. Not that they were not properly qualified.

If you were not negligent you wont be liable for anything other than for offences relating to any trading without the proper qualifications.

So if tomorrow I decide to practise as a surgeon and someone dies on the operating table all I get is a fine?? Somehow I doubt that!

[anthonyd]

Anthony.

If the rest of the company knows not what you do, it becomes a bit hard to measure your effectiveness (or if I was being paid 'efficacious quotient')


That's why I write software for a living now - projects just can't be measured - a bug could take anywhere from one day to six month to fix! Provided you're moving the mouse you're working:)

[Barry_White]

So if tomorrow I decide to practise as a surgeon and someone dies on the operating table all I get is a fine?? Somehow I doubt that!

Anthony

I suppose that would depend on if you were negligent or not. If you knew what you were doing and you did everything correctly and they died because of any other reason, just so as you had your insurance paid up you should be OK. Just like Boban said you'd cop a fine for practising without a licence. :D:D:D

[Wongo]

I used to teach Anguish to new immigrants. :D What! you want my qualification? You want a piece of me? Here …… bang. :D


Well, a degree for me is 4 years of hard work and discipline. To hire me or not, it is up to you.

[boban]

So if tomorrow I decide to practise as a surgeon and someone dies on the operating table all I get is a fine?? Somehow I doubt that!

Now youre going to extremes. But that said, if you know what you are doing, (which without the necessary training is unlikely for surgeons) you must still prove negligence. With this example I doubt whether a lawyer would have too much trouble proving you didn't have the necessary knowledge to perform surgery.

Hows this example then. You are an overseas doctor who has no practicing certificate. He performs surgery and the patient dies but not due to his negligence (which is analogous to the example of the unlicenced electrician). His acts do not become negligent merely because he has no practising certificate.

Your example was of a job perfectly done by an unqualified person. Where is the liability at law?

PS I didnt read Barry's response before posting this. He puts it well using less words.... I cant help myself....

[Sturdee]

PS I didnt read Barry's response before posting this. He puts it well using less words.... I cant help myself....

But Barry isn't trying to confuse ( others call it adressing ) a jury. :D :D :D


Peter.

[Gingermick]

Now the federal Government is talking about visas for "skilled worker " Plasterers , smash repair workers . Well golly-gee surely we should be able to train Australians for these occupations in the lucky country .

But everyone's got something else to do or they want to do nothing. We have just started a senior engineer from south Africa. Took about a year to get him processed and here working.
To train someone adequately they need supervision and at the moment, no one has time to supervise a junior in my office. .....The daft irony of success.

[lesmeyer]

But everyone's got something else to do or they want to do nothing. We have just started a senior engineer from south Africa. Took about a year to get him processed and here working.
To train someone adequately they need supervision and at the moment, no one has time to supervise a junior in my office. .....The daft irony of success.
Oh NO - not another Japie in OZ. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif
Les

[kiwigeo]

Also a chronic shortage of skilled people in the oil and gas exploration game but in this case it's a combination of three factors:

1. All the most experienced people are the the first to get sacked whenever there's a downturn (never worked out the logic in that).
2. The industry has neglected training up new people for too many years.
3. Consultants like myself don't want to stay in Australia when we can earn alot more working overseas....higher day rates and less tax.