Solid Timber floorboards & acclimatisation?

[vGolfer]

We have been told by a few people that it is a good idea to have your floorboards on site for a couple of weeks just to acclimatise to the conditions of the house before they are actually put down.

We are getting 130 x 19mm Sydney Bluegum floorboards glued and secret nailed on top of yellowtongue.

The boards are being delivered on Monday and there is a spot available on Wednesday for installation. Should I tell them I'd raher wait a couple of weeks or is this a bit of a waste of time?

Cheers

[ausdesign]

For exposed polished floors it is the only way to go [espec. comimg out of winter/spring] - or any time or situation with higher moisture content in the air.
Onsite acclimatisation should include stacking the boards on spacer battens to get air flow.

Besides the end result of any unsightly shrinkage there's the warranty aspect.

[vGolfer]

For exposed polished floors it is the only way to go [espec. comimg out of winter/spring] - or any time or situation with higher moisture content in the air.
Onsite acclimatisation should include stacking the boards on spacer battens to get air flow.

Besides the end result of any unsightly shrinkage there's the warranty aspect.

Thanks Peter, I suspected that was the case. My wife is keen just to get it installed, but I am inclined to wait a bit. Apparently it is a freshly cut batch also.

As far as warranty goes, the company that I am getting the floor from (quite a reputable place) are also installing, so I imagine they wouldn't do anything that would void the warranty.

[ausdesign]

As an aside, its good that the manuf. is doing the installation - warranty wise & possibly experience wise - as a come back.
We come across the occasional situation such as yours where the chippies are using too short a nail - usually gun nails - & relying on the adhesive to do the main work. Any particle board flooring that has been down for a length of time and has dust or a weathering film needs to be cleaned back to ensure the glue takes uniformly & bites into the chipboard. Pre sanding is possibly over the top but .........

[bitingmidge]

Just to add to the fire, this week's experience:

A friend is currently building a flash house extension to my design, (2 bedrooms and a LARGE living area = $750k's worth - if you have to ask how much it'll cost, you can't afford me to work for you!) The builder is a VERY good old-school timber worker, and very fastidious, and has just had his first floor failure in 30 years.

KD Blackbutt flooring glued and secret nailed on ply floor, very high humidity, lots of rainfall. Flooring was onsite for about a week, but still bundled and covered.

Laid, sanded, first finish coat, and POP! A nasty ridge appeared in the middle of the floor! About 12 metres and no expansion joint, will do that every time.

He has probably gotten away with it all these years because :
A) the timber was not quite as dry on delivery
B) he'd previously broken the bundles and stored indoors

The floor now sports a cork expansion joint in the centre, and should give no further troubles.

cehers,

P

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

The there's the less obvious opposite type of "failure." I learned about this one on my 3rd or 4th floor. :o

Like vGolfer, the boards were fresh from the kiln, worse, they were laid in the middle of the wet season after only a week onsite in the orig. bundles. My boss at the time wanted to wait but the owner prevailed against all his advice. Come that summer, gaps appeared at every T&G joint... only a mm or so but very noticable on a polished floor. Of course, the owner jumped up'n'down in a hissy fit but the boss simply said "I told you so" and then quoted a ridiculous figure to fix it. Which they paid. Damn, I miss that bloke! :D

[vGolfer]

I have convinced the missus that we are better off waiting the extra couple of weeks.

The boards are getting delivered on Monday - I'm going to unpack them and lay them around parts of the house - we're not living in the house just yet, so it's not a drama.

Floor due to get laid on November 14. Woopee!

Now we have to decide on the finish. I'm gunning for the high gloss - the wife wants satin. I just think the high gloss gives a more striking look.

[elphingirl]

The advice we got when purchasing timber floorboards, was that the store for few weeks advice was not always accurate. It really depends on the moisture content of the timber when delivered, and the relative humidity on site. Factors like whether the house is sealed make a huge difference when the humidity is 70% outside. They said that if the subfloor is dry, and the house is sealed, that often they put the timber straight down - especially for wider boards.

But, hey they are doing for you, so it is their problem to solve.

Cheers
Justine

[Gaza]

130 x 19mm Sydney Bluegum floorboards glued and secret nailed

I think you findit will be top nailed, as boards over 85mm need to be top nailed.

In regards to aclization good idea to leave for at leats a week, and it depends on the quality of the procducer, the biggest issue is the use of AC this is what causes the most problems.

[vGolfer]

They have told us they will be secret nailed.

[Gaza]

Mate,

They must have no idea, because you must top nail boards over 85mm it is common that installers will first sercte nail as a way of pulling the boards togther, then to go back and top nail. I perfer not to use the secrte nailer as a way of clamping the 6in board as it does not get it tight enough.

Dont take my word for this ring Boral timber or even Timber advsior centre in Syd (as melbournes just closed).

You will have trouble if you dont top nail!!!!!!

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

AFAIK there are two different base methods of secret nailing. The first is simple tongue-nailing or end-nailing. This is a cheap'n'nasty method,that should only be used on very narrow boards in the 2 1/2" to 3" range max. Care needs to be taken to avoid splitting the tongues or protruding nail heads which prevent the joint from closing tightly... but apart from that any idiot with a properly adjusted nail-gun can do it.

The second involves prying up a small section of top-grain, nailing, then gluing the strip back down. This is a slow method that demands above average skill to result in a good finish. My old boss was an expert, I never became proficient.

There may be other ways, but I reckon they'll only be variations of one of the above. Unless you consider using Liquid Nails a secret? :D


Either way, if a floor's gonna be secret-nailed, it certainly won't be by me. ;)

[E. maculata]

What Gaza said rings extremely true, no reputable Manufacturer of Aussie flooring I'm aware of recommends secret nailing anything over 80-85mm, far too much too ask of poor ole nails.

[vGolfer]

What Gaza said rings extremely true, no reputable Manufacturer of Aussie flooring I'm aware of recommends secret nailing anything over 80-85mm, far too much too ask of poor ole nails.

We are dealing directly with a fairly large Boral dealer, so I guess they must have some clue. This is the first I have heard about warning against secret nailing wider boards. I'll have to bring this up with them I guess...

[glock40sw]

All Australian hardwood flooring is coverd by Australian Standard AS2796.1 & .2 1999.
It will tell you that moisture content must be 9 to 14 % at time of installation.

It also states that boards over 85mm in cover width shall be top nailed (face nailed).

Boards with a cover width less than 85mm may be secret nailed or top nailed.
No manufacturer of hardwood timber flooring will honour a garantee if the 130mm wide boards are secret nailed. the holding ability is no where near enough for this material.

Have you ever seen a 130mm floor blow???
Pray you never do...It is not a pretty sight to see walls pushed 200 mm beyond the floor on each side.

If you don't want problems with the floor, topnail it and sleep well at night.

Or go with secret nail and end up with ulcers from worry.

Some of us here do this for a living (timber flooring manufacture and installation). We do know what we are talking about.
This sort of advise that is given freely here on this forum, would cost you an arm and a leg out in the big bad world.
It is up to you if you want to partake of said advise.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton.
Quality control technician.
Kiln drying Manager.
Dry products supervisor.
Timber floor inspector.
Australian Hardwood timber flooring manufacturer.

[Gaza]

When installing boards wider than 85mm we try to secrete nail first with the gun, this works if the boards are nice and stright, the floor pulls togerther neat, but if the boards are not stright, (this can occur from being stacked on site incorreclty), we use a floor clamp or chesile to pull the boards together.

Once a section of floor is installed we run a chalk line down the joists and then top nail down the line so that the nails are stright and neat.

I have sacked guys because they did not top nail before going home at night, it is the kind of thing i have bad dreams over, a floor poping and moving, 6in floors will move more than 4in as the board moves across its width, the wider the board the more possible movement.

Also dont use std liquid nails, build bond or any other ridged setting construction adhsive, and when top nailing use either "T" nails or ND brads. not "C" series

Its upto you, listen if you want but give Boral a ring on Monday monring and ask them the question.

The timber floor industry is full of a lot of crap tradesmen and flooring shops, i am not saying i am the best, but after writting almost 20,000 word thesis on it, and working in the industry i do have some small idea,

You can download the draft Aust Std from www.timber.net.au (http://www.timber.net.au) which has a table regard board widths and fixing methods.


Regards, Trevor
Grafton.
Quality control technician.
Kiln drying Manager.
Dry products supervisor.
Timber floor inspector.
Australian Hardwood timber flooring manufacturer.

The company that Trevor runs is one of the leaders in dry hardwood products and has been in the business for a long time, if you listen to any one you should listen to him.

[vGolfer]

I appreciate the advice guys. I didn't mean to come across as though I thought I knew better - it was just the first I had heard that it wasn't a good idea to secret nail 130mm boards.

Lucky for me I found this out prior to the boards being laid. I'll definitely be in touch with the installers to find out what they say. The installers have been organised by the Boral flooring showroom, so I am assuming they know what they are doing. Perhaps I shouldn't assume so much.

Cheers

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I appreciate the advice guys. I didn't mean to come across as though I thought I knew better - it was just the first I had heard that it wasn't a good idea to secret nail 130mm boards.

I don't think you did come across that way, nor do I think anyone intended to "slap you down." We're a contentious lot and just come across that way at times. ;)

I wouldn't worry unduly about your floor, as it's the manufacturer's who've arranged the installation. But I would definitely still check up on what sort of warranty is offered, if only for better peace of mind. Boral's a fairly large company and may run a tighter "risk margin" than smaller companies because they can afford the occasional warranty job.

[Dan_574]

go with a satin finish, gloss shows up dust and dirt more

[glock40sw]

G'day vGolfer.

Please don't think that I was having a go at you.
I wasn't.
I just wanted to state the facts.

It would be wrong of me to let you continue with an installation that could cause you extreme financial difficulties further down the track.
I try to help where I can with info that I know.

Your installer should check the moisture content of the flooring when it arrives on site. Then he can decide if it needs time to climatise or be layed direct from the pack.
We dry to a lower average to allow direct from pack installation.
However, if the flooring is going to a location that is on the coast or north QLD, Then climatisation is required.

Please use Bostick Ultraset or Sika T55J adhesive. For christ's sake do NOT use MAXBOND or LIQUID NAILS. Water based adhesive is a huge NO-NO as well.

When piling for climatisation, please place short boards across the rows of long boards to allow air to flow under and over the rows. Just block stacking it in the rooms does buggerall.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[attie]

"It will tell you that moisture content must be 9 to 14 % at time of installation."

Trevor, for all the years I installed flooring not once did I ever climatised it onsite. We relied on you guys to provide the product to the above standards and not once did I ever have a problem. Pleased to see the others pick up on the secret nailing in the wide boards, I would never secret nail a board over x 2". To do so is surely looking for trouble, satin A was my favourite and I guess you are familiar with it. Personally I don't think Boral would give a rats about gauranteeing their work as they are a big company with plenty of legal advise to get out of it. Also I personally don't like the look of wide floor boards, x 3" and under, maybe 4", gives character to a room

[vGolfer]

Just a bit of an update on this. We got in touch with the installer and queried him about secret nailing the 130mm boards. He said that is a legitimate point but said that by mass glueing Bostik Ultraset using a trowel (rather than a strip of glue) and also powercleats into Yellowtongue, this will make cupping of the boards very unlikely. He said that the more likely thing to cause cupping would be moisture and this can happen just as easily when the boards are top nailed.

I am basically paraphrasing what the guy said, but I must say I am still a little uneasy. We have some friends that had 130mm boards glued and secret nailed about 12 months ago and I must say the look great. I just don't want to be paranoid of problems occuring.

I'm a bit in two minds now...

[glock40sw]

G'day All.
I've just got back from a 2 day timber flooring conference.
I asked some of the people there about secret nailing 130mm boards.
Two of the blokes that know me said that I needed hitting up the side of the head for even asking such a stupid question, as I already know the correct answer.
ie: glue and topnail only.

A few said that they do secret nail and trowell glue. But only for jobs that are 110% right for it and they make the owners sign a no fault clause noted in front of and signed also by a J.P.

So...there you have it, boys & Girlies.

Make your choice and pick your poison.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor.
Grafton

[farm0089]

Hi All,

We are in the final stages of our renovation. The builder have incorrectly installed our floorboards, he secret nailed our 135mm boards against our instructions to top nail it.

The builder has agreed to fix it by top nailing it as is by calculating the distance between each joise. My concern is that you have to be very accurate to do this. Any difference is the gap is multiplied by the number of joise.

Also the boards are on chipboard base, so there is even no chance for me to lift one of the boards to check if the nails got on the joise.

Are my concerns justified?

I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this or advice.

Thanks.

Francis
0418-100881

[Shedhand]

Hi All,

We are in the final stages of our renovation. The builder have incorrectly installed our floorboards, he secret nailed our 135mm boards against our instructions to top nail it.

The builder has agreed to fix it by top nailing it as is by calculating the distance between each joise. My concern is that you have to be very accurate to do this. Any difference is the gap is multiplied by the number of joise.

Also the boards are on chipboard base, so there is even no chance for me to lift one of the boards to check if the nails got on the joise.

Are my concerns justified?

I would appreciate anyone's thoughts on this or advice.

Thanks.

Francis
0418-100881If your builder fixed the boards contrary to your instructions then he should lift the boards and do them as per your instructions at his cost.

[ThePope]

and what's the theory behind lifting the entire floor Shedhand.
he's making good on his mistake by renailing so I can't see any problem if done properly.

[Markw]

Could I suggest making the builder use 50mm nails (or longer??) for the rework. That way you can check from the underside, assuming that this is not onto a concrete slab, that the nails are into the joist and not just the chipboard. :rolleyes: You may have been played for the fool once, don't let it happen again.

BTW - This should not be regarded as a mistake, when a builder is specifically instructed to carry out a job in a certain way he/she should either comply or state that he will not perform the work in this fashion. That way you get someone who will. To perform the work contary to instructions should end up with some form of penalty, preferably financial. Instructions and variations should also be given in writing so that no excuses tolerated.

[noodlenut]

Please use Bostick Ultraset or Sika T55J adhesive. For christ's sake do NOT use MAXBOND or LIQUID NAILS. Water based adhesive is a huge NO-NO as well.

Oh Bugger...
I've posted a thread in this forum asking about filling my 130mm Blackbutt boards and was having a browse when I read this thread...Bugger...

It appears I've broken two of the golden rules. One, I had a box of liquid nails left over after putting down the yellow tongue so being a tight ##### owner builder guess where that is now... then I thought the C bradder I bought for the fix out would do quite nicely throwing a 38mm brad through to hold the boards while the glue set - less time, smaller hole to fill...
Yessss that'll do me nicely, I said, idiot.
Now half way through, is it worth ripping the bloody lot up and starting again or do I change adhesive for the remaining and hope the kitchen will help keep this section of the floor on the deck???

Of course I will blame the minister for home affairs for pressuring me to finish the bloody thing thereby not allowing me enough time to research...

Noodles

[Pulse]

I love this thread,

just thought I'd share a story about a popped floor in Paddington Bowling Club restaurant (in Sydney). There is a single run of flooring for about 50 metres, with the restaurant at one end. Down the middle of the restaurant is a ridge of popped boards about 6 inches high and 3 feet wide. Very funny watching the waitresses stumble on it every time. Bit annoying when one of your chair legs sits on it though.

Cheers
Pulse

[glock40sw]

Now half way through, is it worth ripping the bloody lot up and starting again or do I change adhesive for the remaining and hope the kitchen will help keep this section of the floor on the deck???
Noodles

G'day.
I'd swap glue and keep going.
Flooring that has been torn up and relaid looks wrong.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[BillyBudd]

Hey VGolfer,
you are right to be concerned by the supplier's statement that "whatever you do moisture will cause pointing/cupping"...this is the first excuse they'll use if anything does go wrong...(nuthin to do with us or the boards..Its the moisure in your house mate!). If you live in East Sydney they'll probably be right.

Anyhow, all the advice on this message board is excellent but the humidity level in your house/subfloor and how it varies across seasons will be a big determination of how flat your floor stays. You will always get some shrinkage and swelling, although this will be a lot less if you run reverse cycle airconditioning in your house most of the year.

THe best way to reduce cupping is to cut and lay your boards unfinished and upside down, screwing down every 5th one. Then leave for 6 months to acclimatise. Then unscrew, flip and nail/glue and finish.

I'm assured this works but of course no sensible Minister for Home Affairs would ever put up with this for 6 days let alone 6 months so am not speaking from personal experience here...

Anyhow, whatever you do, if things do go horriby wrong you see your boards starting to cup, either ignore it (and just like rising damp it will go away) or go buy a small humidity controlled dehumidifier ($500) and stick it in your subfloor. :-)

[glock40sw]

THe best way to reduce cupping is to cut and lay your boards unfinished and upside down, screwing down every 5th one. Then leave for 6 months to acclimatise. Then unscrew, flip and nail/glue and finish.

Ummm... NO.
I've seen a 130mm floor that was cut in ,laid upside down for 3 months and then flipped over and nailed off.

It looked like corragated iron. You could not walk on it the cupping was so bad.
For a good floor install, do the correct procedures for installation. DO NOT cut corners. Use membranes. Climatise only if needed. allow enough expansion joints (cork or gaps). use the correct fixings. use the correct adhesive. Don't try and save a few nails be spreading them out too far. DO NOT use liquid nails or water based glues. Only use the recommended adhesives.Get a Pro. Ensure that the installer is going to do the floor the way YOU want it. NOT the way he wants to lay it. Research the subject. Ask questions from people who know what they are talking about. NOT from a builder. NOT from an architect. NOT from a mate. BUT from a hardwood flooring professional or manufacturer.
Correct Hardwood Flooring installation is so easy.
It is the lack of site preparation and installation skill that causes the problems.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[ThePope]

This man speak the truth...

Does your company have a good quality guide available on the net covering the ins and outs of flooring trev ?
Seems to be a need for one going by all the queries here.

[glock40sw]

G'day,Your holyness.:D
No, we don't.
We rely on the resources of Timber Queensland and TRADAC for all the info relating to flooring installation. They have far more experience in this field than I do.
I was only talking to our largest customer the other day. He was saying that he has no trouble at all with our flooring, yet other manufacturers were doing resupply for faulty flooring.
We have probably the tightest quality control for flooring that you can get.

EG: we run an inline moisture meter behind our moulder. every stick of flooring gets checked for moisture content. Any that are too dry or too wet get sprayed with black paint for the entire length of the piece. This makes it unusable for flooring. We split it on a sawbench and use it for edge protector strips to stop rope or chain damage to the good flooring.

We have on our main flooring production line, 6 qualified timber graderman. So each stick of flooring passes through these blokes hands and eyes. What one might miss, the next will get.

Sure it all costs money, and we don't sell the cheapest flooring. But we do sell quality.

Hooroo.
Regards, Trevor
Grafton

[ThePope]

jesus you're certainly thorough.

trouble is all that goes out the window somewhat when it gets on site and into the wrong hands :)

but you've done all you can at your end...

[E. maculata]

We have on our main flooring production line, 6 qualified timber graderman. So each stick of flooring passes through these blokes hands and eyes. What one might miss, the next will get.


Trevor


How the heck do you get all 6 to stay in the one spot long enough to do any work Trev?

[glock40sw]

How the heck do you get all 6 to stay in the one spot long enough to do any work Trev?

Ban smoking on site...