what type of flooring for a balcony ?

[oldbones]

the boss is impressed by my next mission - a 7m x 3m 1st floor balcony which she can sit on when it is fine and sit under when raining (only occasionaly in VIC), comfortably supping her G&T.

my plan is to tile the balcony floor.

the advice needed from you learned guys is what type of sheet flooring material to use underneath the tiles, any special fixing tips, any additional treatment recommended (plus where to source).

i'm planning to use 190 x 45 F7 treated pine joists at 450 centers across the 3m spans.

also, would a 2% floor slope be okay from your experiences ?

this is a great site !

[ausdesign]

From our experience hardies compressed sheet is a good product for this type of application, with plenty of instructions available for the diy person.
Joist spacings 453mm.
190*45 f7 just over strenghted but the sheet and tiles will add to stability
2 deg. slope is fine - minimum 1:100
recommend a 10mm 'drip' overhang on sheets & tiles.

Doesn't sound like it but any deck over 4 meters above g/l has special reg's on handrail design.

[mic-d]

You could use 15mm Hardipanel compressed sheets if you have 450ctrs. 190x45 seasoned f7 is OK for joists according to the tables and 2 x 190x45's for the bearers(load width of 1800 and span of 2700) should be more than adequate. 1% is the minimum fall, so 2% will be OK but I wouldn't go any more.

Cheers
Michael

[mic-d]

Is there an echo in here?
:D

[ThePope]

Though it's a bugger to work with, quite heavy and difficult to cut (hire a wet saw recommended) it's about the only choice you have for an exterior tiled timber deck. To reduce the amount of cutting, when you set out your joists do it to suit the width of sheets you plan on using.

Plently of good information available from Hardies on the product:

http://www.jameshardie.com.au/Products/FlooringAndUnderlays/HardiePanel/
http://www.jameshardie.com.au/Products/FlooringAndUnderlays/HardiePanel/TechManual/

ps: just looking at their sheet sizes they have a 3000*900 which would be ideal in your case. BUT !!! you'd need to make sure you could get it onto the deck, due to weight of sheet you want a few mates to help out.

[ausdesign]

I agree with 'the pope'. A few mates, a few eskies & fix it down the next day.
Sounds easy but 8/3met. sheets will need some supervision to make sure the 'boss' stacks them in the right place

[Gaza]

USe Fuller preme 303 to stick the CFC to the joists, also maybe put the joists at closer centers (ie 400cc) to reduce bounce, also make sure the tile adhesive is a flexible one to stop the tiles debonding if movement occurs,
You can cut the CFC with a special 71/4 C.Saw blade, good idea to have vacum hooked up to reduce dust.

When fixing sheets use a drill bit to pre drill the CFC and counter sink the heads, use a Gal screw.

[Pulse]

I've just finished a very similar deck 4m high with a laundry underneath.

A few things I learned:
1. Get the sheets delivered onto the deck. I had to send the guys back because there is no way to lift a 80kg sheet up a ladder.
2. Use 403mm joist spacings as Gaza advised. It allows 1200mm wide sheets to be used and gives a stiffer floor.
3. Use 50mm 14G type 17 Galvanised batten screws and countersink them. They have 5mm internal hex drive.
4. They are hard to cut, a wet saw would be great. I used a masonry cut off wheel in a circular saw with 4 passes and a lot of dust.
5. Make sure you use the joint sealant as described in the manual. I had no trouble with leaks in the few months it took me to waterproof it.

Here are a few photos, BTW if anyone near Tamworth enjoys tiling let me know... the job for next weekend.

Cheers
Pulse

[oldbones]

thanks all - hardies compressed sheet looks the way to go - good stuff.

read their teccy manual and seems straightforward for an external water resistant use
(though i'd not enjoy going the fully waterproof option - feels like expensive/hard work)

if i get my act together i "should" be able to get away with using full sheets and just a few notches here and there. thanks for the warning on cutting this stuff. 3m*1.2's with 402mm centers could work nicely.

i've poor access round the back of the house so i just need to work out how SWMBO is going to lift the 100kg sheets up 3m !

feels like the mates/esky route could definately be the go!

will keep you posted when the permit comes through and the fun starts.
(did i say i was building it over a 2m (empty) pool ?)

[seriph1]

all I know is - our wives must never meet! :D:D:D:D - If mine heard what youre doing, well ...... you know what I'd be building next!

[seriph1]

ummm if you had 450 centres, and the sheets were 900 wide, you wouldnt need to cut them, except at the ends, which you might even be able to avoide, given the range of sizes it comes in (provided you design around the sheet sizes)

[Wildman]

Hardi panel is great stuff, expensive but great stuff. I have just put 18mm in my bathroom floor and while it is 33Kg/square metre, heavy enough, it feels much heavier as it is awkward to manoeuvre, rock solid though, feels like a concrete floor. Go the smallest sheets you can get to fit easily unless you have a mechanical means of lifting them, two short sheets with a join will be a lot easier to lift than one long sheet. The best way to cut with home tools is a diamond blade on an angle grinder, masonry disk creates lots of dust and is slow. Wear a respirator (a proper one) and make sure you have pre filters or you will block up in no time. Diamond blade goes through it like butter, very quick and easy (luckily I only had to cut the hole for the central heating, get sheets the right size in the first place). Also buy a handful of cheap counter sink bits, I could not find carbide tipped ones and the panel blunts normal bits very fast (anyone know where you can get carbide ones?). I only just got the bathroom (3000x1800mm) countersunk with 450mm spacings of screws and one countersink bit. It is now completely stuffed. If you need to cut a bigger round hole, forget a tile hole saw which is an option in the manual, mine got 1/3 of the way through before being destroyed, just go the multiple holes and knock it out with a hammer route. Make sure you glue the panels together like they say if you are tiling as you dont want the panels to move independently. It is unlikely but the epoxy they recommend (hydrepoxy 501) is easy to mix and use and is not expensive compared to the sheets!
Cheers
Ben

[oldbones]

clearly experience far outweighs what you read!

3m*1.2m*15 sheets must weigh ~100kg.
hoisting up onto a bunch of FJ's 3m above a 2m empty pool = tricky !
SHMBO might even break a nail.

feels like the 0.9's would work better and sod the extra joins.

anyone found a cheap source in SE melbourne?
seemed too much trouble for the local bunnies to give me a price on the phone .....

[Wildman]

I got a quote from Bunnings but it took 2 days just for a that and they were a few dollars per sheet more than the place I got it from. I got it from the Lafarge PlastaMasta centre in mountain highway in Bayswater. They dont stock it but it only took two days to arrive. Dont try to pick it up yourself unless you have a big trailer or a truck, get them to deliver it but be prepared to help unload it.

Personally I would not be trying to lift sheets even half that size up that high unless your mates are much taller and stronger than mine. Can you get a forklift or some other form of mechanical help in place? You would not want to drop one, the pool would not be happy.

Cheers
Ben

[oldbones]

wildman, thanks for the tip.

i need to give the whole delivery/lifting thing some more serious thought as access is tight (and rough). even craning in could be a saga !
my mates are as wimpy as me so they wont be that much use either, even after a slab.

good idea to suggest a fork-lift - might be the go if i flattened the ground off a little.

i guess that, unlike say plasterboard, these sheets are very strong and can handle acute loads on edges/corners etc so will accommodate the push and shove of maneouvering into place.

hope you are saving up for your girls first woodwork tool set !

[Dr Dee]

Oldbones,
I renovated a dbl story house some years ago when I was fitter and more agile, but still had some dodgy moments getting large sheet material up. Ended up getting smart by putting 3 lengths of timber (ex formwork) to act as a sliding ramp and using an old sheet of plywood as a skid plate. It was fairly steep but worked like a charm and safe. Tie 2 ropes off to somewhere solid on the upper level, toss them down mid way between the ramp boards, place the plywood sheet on the rampwith the ropes behind, place the heavy sheet (do one at a time) on top of the plywood, toss the ends of the ropes back up top and then start pulling with one person per rope. The whole lot slides up, and you only have 1/4 weight per rope because it is doubled.

Hope this helps - simple and safe and worked for me.

cheers

[Wildman]

The panels are very strong, however they are still relatively brittle. Dont drag it on a corner or it will get damaged and if you dropped one, it will probably break. Also be aware that due to how they are constructed, if they are going to break, they will just snap without warning rather than fail gracefully like under reinforced concrete (all concrete should be under reinforced btw so the steel fails first and gives warning, cracks etc. Over reinforced concrete fails suddenly and quickly). You only have to worry about this during transport and installation, once in, they exceed the requirements for domestic floor loading as it is primarily designed for commercial applications.

You have the option to use 15mm if you have 450mm joists, it is lighter (by 5Kg/m2), however big sheets will be more likely to be damaged during installation and it is actually more expensive than the 18mm as it is used less.

My daughter laughed for ages when she saw me covered in tile dust and wearing a dust mask (once she realised it was me), hopefully she continues her interest in my garage work! She is only 4 months old so I still have some time....

Cheers
Ben