Sanding LOTS of 85year old VJ's & Weatherboards ... what to buy ?

[SteveAndBelle]

Hi,

My wife and I recently purchased an 85 year old Queenslander with 11 foot ceilings, VJ's all 'round inside and weatherboards on the outside (duh).

It's in reasonable condition as it is however we're planning to do LOTS of work to it (structurally and cosmetically) over the next few years (5, 10 or even 15 years) to return it's original beauty.

This includes sanding ever last piece of timber inside and out to prepare the house for some nice new paint to replace the current (lead-free) stuff that's just starting to flake off in places.

Now, the big question. If cost wasn't an issue which sanders could anyone suggest for the job taking into account the fact that I'd prefer the equipment to last many, many years after the 5-10 years of hardcore renovations to the house ?

I know I'll probably need a big tough belt sander (for the VJ's) & probably a large disc sander too (for the weatherboards) but which brands/models would be the best suited for ripping paint off as efficiently as possible ?

Also, can anyone recommend any other types of sanders or other tools I may need to finish the job off before applying the paint ? Dust Extractors for instance ? Any ideas ??

[Robert WA]

I am a firm believer in scrapers for paint removal. If you go that way, the Bahco, formerly Sandvic, is as good as they get.

Rob.

[SteveAndBelle]

Scrapers, really ? To do every interior and exterior wall of the house right down to the timber (without going too overboard) ?? Wow.

I might buy myself one and see how it works on a bit of 'test' wall. Thanks for the input !

[Trav]

Hi SteveAndBelle

Sounds like you are pretty keen on sanding. I can't imagine why! Sanding is the work of the devil if you ask me. I can't stand it - especially on walls.

Hvae you thought about over-painting the walls? I use this stuff called 3 in 1 that can be painted over gloss enamel, and then simply apply acrylic paint over the top of that. It will save you 10,000 years of sanding, not to mention tonnes of dust in your lungs.

If you are that keen on sanding, I suggest that you might like to use a random orbital sander - that will minimise any marks left behind. But for such a large job, a 1/3 or 1/2 sheet sander will be cheaper as you can use lots of different types of sandpaper and buy it by the roll. ROS need to use the velcro pads.

I have a makita 1/3 sheet and it is great. I also have a GMC ROS which isn't too bad. Best thing is that if it drops dead within 2 years, take it back and they will give you a brand newy.

If you want good gear, look at festool etc, but they are much more $$.

I saw a neat little bosch cordless sander the other day at bunnings - I almost bought it. But I couldn't think of a use where cordless would be a real advantage.

Buy lots of dust masks, or look for a sander with good dust extraction and a vac.

Trav

[ian]

we're planning to do LOTS of work to it (structurally and cosmetically) over the next few years (5, 10 or even 15 years) to return it's original beauty.

This includes sanding ever last piece of timber inside and out to prepare the house for some nice new paint to replace the current (lead-free) stuff that's just starting to flake off in places.

Now, the big question. If cost wasn't an issue which sanders could anyone suggest for the job taking into account the fact that I'd prefer the equipment to last many, many years after the 5-10 years of hardcore renovations to the house ?

Also, can anyone recommend any other types of sanders or other tools I may need to finish the job off before applying the paint ? Dust Extractors for instance ? Any ideas ??I'm taking you at your request that cost not be an issue.

I'd get a bunch of Festo sanders and a Festo dust extractor. (Oh, I wish I wish I was on commission)
Of the sanders I've used the Festos have the least vibration (it's longer before your hands go numb) and the best dust collecion. The dust collection is so good that you probably don't need a mask, and you can certainly be painting in the next room. Although a Festo collector can be fitted with two hoses, if you and your wife are both doing a lot of sanding at the same time you'll probably end up with two vacs.

For your job I'd probably get an agressive rotary sander, possibly the RAS115 (because it's less than half the weight of the larger RAS180), or a random orbital sander either the ROTEX RO150 three-in-one or a WTS150/7 (coarse sanding) and an ETS 150/3 (fine sanding) — I'd pass on the Rotex RO125 so I could standardise on 150mm size paper.
As an alternative I'd look at how well a 1/2 or 1/3 sheet orbital sander fitted the boards I needed to sand.

You'll also need a triangular sander of some sort to get into those areas a circular sander can't, and possibly a profile sander for joints.

Lastly, I'd stay with Festo papers, as the abrasive used and hole seems to work better than the alternatives I've tried.

The above will probably cost over $3,000 — now remember you said if cost was not an issue ...

For cheaper alternatives, I'd stay with the Festo dust extractor (either a CT22 or CT33) as I've not heard of a unit that's as good and significantly cheaper. Whislt a sander and integrated dust bag is way cheaper than an extractor, the ones I've used are nowhere near as good as a vac for collecting the dust.
Most of your sanding will be of vertical surfaces, so I'd pay a reasonable amount extra for a lower weight sander. I'd also be fussy about how easy it is to hold the sander on its side.

You might also consider a room size air filter which you'd leave on in the area being treated for some hours after you finished sanding.
Most of your sanding will be of vertical surfaces, so I'd pay a reasonable amount extra for a lower weight sander. I'd also be fussy about how easy it is to hold the sander on its side.

You might also consider a room size air filter which you'd leave on in the area being treated for some hours after you finished sanding.
on


Finally, get yourself some anti vibration gel filled gloves. Bicycle gloves seem to be the best deal.

ian

[SteveAndBelle]

Whoa Ian, thanks for the info !

Based on what you've said I'll look into the whole Festo range sometime over the next week or so and investigate the models you're talking about. If $3000 makes the job as easy as it can be plus gives me power tools that are built tough enough to last for years to come, so be it. I have absolutely no problem forking out the cash, it just means that I will need to save up a bit more that's all.

The Festo dust collection sounds perfect as although we'll probably still want to wear those crappy paper masks (just for effect;) I didn't really want to go to the extremes of full respirators. I might pass on the 'room sized air filter' though ... that sounds a little too extreme :)

If, however, I fork out the money and buy all this stuff and it all turns out to be junk (which I highly doubt from other reports I've read on Festo tools) I will have to add them to my 'never-buy-again' list along with all the expensive yet very poor quality Sony products I've bought over the years which aren't ever compatable with any other brand and the house full of useless Fisher & Paykel products that simply don't last. I've been burnt far too many times in the past so everything I buy now NEEDS to last, whatever the expense !

I refuse to be a part of the 'throw-away' society we're all guilty of helping to create (sorry Trav) so I just can't be tempted by the GMC's, XU1's and any other 'cheapie' tool with amazing full replacement warranties. Great idea but just not for me sorry.

I'm tho fool though because I wont be the one who dies with the most toys ... I'll still be saving up for them ;)

Thanks guys.

[SteveAndBelle]

Ian,

I couldn't help myself :) I've been checking out the Festo stuff online and I'm very impressed however I need a bit of clarification on a few things.

You said, "Although a Festo collector can be fitted with two hoses, if you and your wife are both doing a lot of sanding at the same time you'll probably end up with two vacs". Does that mean I would have to buy two CT22's or 33's ?

If I was to buy a WTS150/7 for me to rip through all the big stuff plus an ETS150/3 for the wife (her next birthday present ;) to follow me around to finish off the job and a CT33 to collect the dust I'm looking at a tad over $2K. That's fine, however without knowing what it's like to actually use these tools I'm finding it difficult to justify spending and extra grand on a 2nd CT33 so both sanders can be connected to their own collectors even though each collector can handle two tools. The sanders are fine at $1000 but to blow a further $2000 on dust extraction to me (Mr. Uneducated) seems extreme.

Could you shed some light on that for me please ?

Also, is there anything wrong with using a belt sander to rip the paint off ? I've been told be a few people (who may or may not know what they're talking about) that a belt sander is the way to go to get VJ's back to clean timber ... but I dunno. I thought using a belt sander vertically might be a little difficult and also result in holes being 'dug' into the timber. Know what I mean ?

[ian]

I really should have gone to bed before now ...
dust extractors Festo hoses are about 3m long so your working radius ends up being about 1.5—2m, less if you're working up near the ceiling. This puts the wife's and her sander pretty close to you, possibly too close for you both to work efficiently, especially if one is covering the ground faster than the other. Also I'm not sure how well the tool switching works with two similtenous tools. If you went for two, you might get size unit smaller than the other

sanders For removing lots of old paint, you might be better off with a RAS115. I'd talk to Festo and organise a visit to one of their demo centres. I've got a Makita belt sander, but find the ROTEX easier to use when working vertically.


ian

[sol381]

Not too sure about insiide work but doing the weatherboards on my place and robert is right, the bahco scraper is the go. If you have thick paint this thing will rip the boards back to the dawn of time. Cost aboUT $30but well worth it and faster and cleaner than a sander. You will need a grinder but dont get a large one. They are too heavy and youll be stuffed iin no time. ASlso most boards are only 135-140 cover so youre wasting your time with anything moe than a 5 inch grinder. I have a 125mm makita and its superb, About $90. If the paint is solid use 24 griit disca. It will rip the paint straight off but amazingly still give a smooth surface. I tried 40 and 60 grit like a was advised to and they just didnt work.
If you dont want to spend thats much on sanders buying festool , check out the milwaukee range. Equal to if not better and less expensive.
stef

[rmcpb]

Choice of sander is secondary in my opinion to that of a dust extractor. Remember, many of the old paints were lead based and you don't want to breath the dust in. If you have kids, keep them away till all dust is cleaned up and make sure you are using a good dust mask, with real filters, while sanding even with a dust extractor.

The idea of over painting is great, especially if the original paint is still good. That would reduce the amount of stripping you have to do if you only have to sand the degraded surfaces.

Good luck and keep safe.

[SteveAndBelle]

Yes Rob, even though we've done a few tests on the paint in various places around the house and found there to be no lead anywhere (previous owners had kids and painted the place a fair while ago methinks) I still agree with you with regards to dust extraction as I don't really think filling my/our lungs with paint & wood dust would be too healthy. Ew.

The 'scraper' method is an interesting one as it would reduce the need to deal with dust full stop. I will have to give it a try as I still can't picture the kind of results I'd get. Hmmmm. It's only a $30 investment so I may as well give it a go before I take the plunge and blow big bucks on the sanders & extractors etc.

Thanks guys.

[Andy Mac]

Hi Steve and Belle,
I guess the lead paint thing is still an issue, even if the latest coats on the house weren't. Apparently the dust will settle and stay in the soil, garden beds and lawn. And consider the neighbours too. I had a bit of a scare while sanding inside a previous house, and went for a blood test...elevated levels of lead were found:eek: .
I prefer to strip paint now using one of those heat guns: probably expensive to run, but they do a great job, all the paint bubbles up and is EASY to scrape. Hanging onto a sander or grinder all day is not a lot of fun, but if you do, wear a real mask, not a poxy little disposable one.

Cheers,

[SteveAndBelle]

Thanks Andy. Whenever I did the lead test I made sure I scratched through all the possible layers of paint and went right down to the timber to be sure I could get an accurate result. To be 100% sure the test was 'true' (as much as you can be sure using a few of those $30 testing kits from Bunnies) I waited a while and then used the 'control' stick supplied. Each time I got an instant positive response on the stick so I knew the test kit wasn't 'stale' of faulty. That was enough to satisfy me that all layers of paint and even the timber underneath was about as lead free as you could get it.

Whoever painted the place last time must've really stripped it down to bare timber before they applied the paint because I couldn't detect any lead even in the grooves of the VJ's or the nooks & crannys of other areas ! Must've taken ages and/or cost them a fortune ... but that's good news for us I suppose ;)

The 'heat scraper' method was one of my first thoughts but I'm not too sure how 'safe' they are. I've used one of those $100 electric jobbies in the past when doing up a dodgy old post-war place with my dad but it just didn't seem to do the job well enough so we went back to using a very dodgy disc sander/wire brush setup. The disc sander/wire brush method was OK but was very rough which was fine on the old post-war place (which had really roughly cut weatherboards to start with) but our new place is of a higher quality with much nicer timber all 'round. I've since seen professional painters use the hardcore gas powered scrapers and was very impressed with how easy & quick they were to use but I've also seen a couple of beautiful old QLD'ers get burnt to the ground in under 10 minutes due to people using these things so I'm hesitant to take that any further ... unless some of you can add your comments to this ?!?

Also, I'm concerned that the fumes from 'melting' paint would be more dangerous to your health than dust particles but again, I'm not educated in this enough to know the goods and the bads. At least you can 'see' dust particles and can deal with them accordingly. You can obviously over ventilate the area you're 'scrapring' when using a heat scraper thingy but is that really enough to keep nasty chemical fumes out of your lungs ? As you say you've got to consider the neighbours too !

Maybe we should sell up and just buy a brand new brick & tile place ;) I'm kidding, really !

[Garves]

Hey Stef, what size Bahco scraper did you use. I need to do a few weatherboards also. The weatherboards are pretty rough because they have been under aluminum cladding for what i reckon might be up to 15 years. Do you have any tips for using it or is it just a matter time and hard yakka?
Pete

[markharrison]

As others have noted here, the more aggressive random orbit sanders like the Festool RO150, Makita BO6040 and Metabo will do all the work you want. Belt sanders are not that easy to use in fact. I also recommend a detail sander to get into the grooves. I have a Metabo (http://www.metabo.com.au/metabo/au/en/produkte/triangularbaseplatesanders/300wattelectronictriangularbaseplatesanderdse300intec_6_00311_52.html)and it has been a champ. The Mouse type sanders though are easier to hold.

For a completely different alternative, there is the Metabo LF 724S (http://www.metabo.com.au/metabo/au/en/produkte/paintremovers/710wattpaintremoverlf724s_6_00724_19.html) paint stripper. This is a specialist tool designed for just what you want to do. Remove a lot of paint from a broad flat surface. I have one of these and have used it in my house renovations. It takes a little practice to get a good finish (don't start in the middle of the wall for your first attempt) but the best thing is that it creates chips which you suck up with your dust collector, not dust. Not only that, it is very fast.

Mine is for sale as I have finished with it. I have no intention of renovating any more houses! Send me a PM if you're interested. You will save a lot on the new cost.

I bought the Carbatec duct collector/vacuum (http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=180_350_1870_1872). It has also been a champ and I would not hesitate to recommend it and mine has had a real workout. You can save some serious coin on this versus the Festool equivalent.

By the way, the recommendation of the Bahco scrapers was a good call. These are far and away the best there are. I used these on their own and in conjunction with an electric heat gun (I bought a Makita). I can't recommend them highly enough.

[gsouth]

When we were looking at sanding our place for painting I had a lead expert come in and check it - place was built inthe 60's and yep sure enough there was a mild lead paint used....as an undercoat only (the pink stuff they used to use)
His suggestion if I chose to do it myself was to use wet and dry and sand it wet. The lead dust is deadly and it takes a LOT of effort to make sure you get it ALL out afterwards - he would never recommend dry sanding anywhere there is a hint of lead - the advice he gave me was backed up by another person I knew in the paint industry (nothing like a 2nd opinion) who basically said that if we had, or were thinking of having kids the dust is very dangerous even in small amounts...

Geoff

[Ratbag]

Here's my twopenn'orth.

For weatherboards: A nice, slim VARIABLE SPEED grinder of 4 1/2" to 5" with 24 grit Carborundum Discs is about perfect: choose one that you think you could safely use with one hand up a ladder. It needs to be used with a deft, light touch. Modern plastic paints are marvellous. You only need to remove loose, flaky paint and any oxidised, chalky deposits and lightly abrade the rest to provise the correct "key" for acrylic finishes. Anything more is unnecessary and obsessive. The elasticity-plasticity of good quality modern finishes are such that they will only require a regular water blast to stay in good condition and to prepare for subsequent recoats. Invest in a proper quality respirator, coveralls and a beanie and don't let the dust inside (both airborne and in/on you). Hosing it all down before, during and after will help suppress airbourne dusts. You can prepare a house exterior in less than a day with this method, provided there's not much filling and resanding to do. Repaint with the best quality paint available. Cheap paint is a false economy.

V-joint linings: Try to avoid at all costs sanding interiors. Buy the last fellow's Metabo Raint Remover. I'm on my 4th. house with mine & I swear by it. It's a sort of micro-adjustable plane based on an angle grinder but with a machined alloy head. It can be adjusted to remove individual layers of finish. I kid you not. I modified mine to fit a CT22 extractor. Used with care it will also reach into 90 degree vees, but I regard doing so as unsafe. This is where those marvellous abovementioned Sandvik/Bahco Carbide scrapers come into their own. Provided you don't try scraping any nails they'll last & last. They can be used with or without hot air and or chemical strippers, as you own individual circumstances determine. I find the smallest model scraper with the triangular/teardrop heads used "dry" the most useful for my (140 Y.O. extremely heavily painted architrave and window mouldings) own circumstances. You will still require follow up sanding. A combination of Rotex/Deltex/Duplex ans quality extraction or equivalents will take care of any paint residues for a "Bare wood" finish. Forget orbitals: they are just too slow & crude. The rationale behind using the Metabo is simple. It would take me some 10 to 20 times as long to remove the paint in my workplaces with sanding alone. Also, sanding is just so damn dusty. Lead or no, paint is nasty stuff, and I still recommend all the safety gear anyway. Spending 3 grand on hardware, and only a few dollars on personal protection and safety is infantile.

Also a word about the historical integrity of your woodwork. Even with paint finishes and coverings, your woodwork will have acquired an certain aged patina, all too easily damaged or erased by overzelous sanding. It's sometimes better to leave paint residues in grooves and nailholes of interior paintwork rather than sand all the way back to "new" timber. This will become your signature of a sympathetic restoration to subsequent owners, and will enhance the value of your home.

[bitingmidge]

Dash it all, this is an old thread, but who knows... someone may read it in the future.

Ratbag is 100% absolutely correct from a number of perspectives:
DON'T remove the paint from the VJ's, there's absolutely no need to do it, even if the surface is crook in places.

Sand by all means, fill the cracks if you have to... but you'll just waste enormous amounts of effort and bugger up what you have.

If you want a new look, then go and build a replica house!

I'm rather fond of a couple of tricks:

1) a light sand after a good scrub
2) fill any bad movement cracks with polystuff
3) a nice primer if necessary (I prefer it sprayed)
4) Satin walls (as close to flat as you dare), semi-gloss above the picture rails in the same colour as the walls (not historically accurate, but gives a slight variation in the colour to the eye) and dead flat ceilings.
5) I like to use the same colour for the trims including picture rails in full gloss.

If you want to do a complete "restoration" that's even more reason NOT to strip the paint off!!

Cheers,

P
:cool:

[Tools]

If you decide you want to remove all of the paint,get hold of a radiant paint remover.They will remove the paint without burning it or the timber underneath,and are safe for use on lead paint.And they don't get hot like a heat gun will.

Tools