dumb TV antenna question

[Trav]

I'm relying on you guys (and girls) to save me again.

Story - just bought a new house. It already has an antenna on the roof with cabling running down to two points in the house. Reception from these points is absolutely terrible. Not even recognisable.

I had the foxtel guy out yesterday to connect the pay TV, but he was too busy to accept my offer to fix the free to air.

The antenna only has horizontal bars - not vertical and horizontal like most of the other antennas around. It does, however, have a booster box on the mast. This runs down to the roof level where there is a F connector splitter. Then two separate cables running down into the house.

Questions:

1. does the type of antenna make a difference?

2. the picture is so terrible, that I am hardly sure if it is actually working at all. When I pull the plug out of the TV, the picture goes to complete static.

3. Given I have only moved 2 streets across, I presume I wouldn't need to re-tune the picture on the TV, just fiddle with the aerial until it gets a better reception. Is that right?

4. Apart from trying to match the angles of the other antennas in the street, are their any tricks to getting better reception?

5. Unfortunately, a STB is not an option as I already have many, many devices plugged into the amp and SWMBO wants something simple that she understands.

Thanks

Trav

[JDub]

Hi Trav,

Will answer your PM here because I cant send them yet again (arrrggghhhh!):mad:



I didnt end up doing anything with the existing outside aerial, instead I just bought and digital set top box and connected it to an powered aerial I already had (the type that look like bunny ears but you plug it in)

I now have crystal clear reception and it only cost me about $100. Downside is I have yet another remote control to loose behind the couch ( and as you said it is one more confusing thing to operate).

I may hook up a outside aerial one day but it is low on the list of things to spend money on;)


Joel

[spartan]

I had a situation not too different from this. After much investigation it turned out that the problem was the coax terminations in the wall plates and splitters in the ceiling.

If you have a setting of antenna rabbit ears I'd use them to check the potential of the reception in your new place. Theoretically, you should be able to get a better picture with your main antenna than the rabbit ears. If you can't then start looking for obvious faults.

As far as boosters are concerned be aware that they simply amplify the signal. This will include amplification of any noise. So you may get a stronger picture but it will not make it perfect.

[Gumby]

When I put a booster on mine because of a poor signal in the foothills, I also had to install a filter which stopped the noise bars on the lower frequency channels (CH 2 for instance)

[Clinton1]

Trav,
I usually work on larger antennas - so hope this helps.
1. The large antenna you describe is for the lower frequencies only. Higher frequencies have the smaller antenna - often with a 'reflector" behind them in the form of a v shaped wire screen. Your antenna will only work for the frequencies it is designed for. i.e. if Canberra has SBS (for example) on the higher freq, then you will only get very poor, or nil, reception at the higher freq. Most areas have a requirement for both antennas.

2. When pulling the plug out (I'm assuming you mean the coaxial :D ) the picture goes to static - yep, the antenna works, however poorly. The problem may be in the antenna, the booster, the splitter, the coaxial connections or the coaxial. Or the whole thing may be poo, and the coaxial connector may be acting as the antenna. Simple hey.

3. That seems right - no need to retune unless moving to an area in which the stations are on a new frequency, unless your telly didn't hold the settings in memory.

4. Yes. Isolate the problem. Unfortunately without lots of mucking around, its really difficult to isolate where the problem is. A visual inspection of all the cable connections would be a start. Look for loose connections and corrosion on the joins. Is the antenna on the roof or in the roof? The antenna will not work under a metal roof. Raising/realigning the antenna may help if it improves the "line of sight" to the transmitting antenna. Remove the "Booster box" and the splitter. Each addition to the circuit will add complexity and more things to go wrong. Remember that each cable join/connection will halve the signal strength as it passes through. Make each change and then check before making the next, its a process of elimination.
Without expensive test gear, you may find it is simply better to get a quote to replace boxes and redo the wiring. Antennas you can do youself cost effectively. Cabling is a lot of mucking around and needs the connection crimper. A professional job is worthwhile here. Box (booster/splitter) selection needs pro advice.
Sorry if you need to replace it, and hope you get it worked out.

[Trav]

Thanks all. I think I may pull it all apart on the weekend and try and find a problem.

Cheers

Trav

[outback]

Not being scared to make a fool of myself, I offer the following.

if the masthead amplifier is indeed just that, and I don't doubt it is, do you have a power supply hooked up to it?

[Trav]

Well, you ask all the difficult questions outback! :D

No, there does not seem to be any power supply connected to it. The coax comes from the aerial, into this box half-way up the mast, then down to a f connector splitter, then into the house.

No power supply etc.

If that stops it being an amplifier, what is it?

Trav

[jshaw]

Trav, when we moved to our place in Stirling last year there was a horizontal, unpowered antenna in the garage so I stuck it up and greatly improved over our bunny ears. Now only have a colour to b&w flicker on Ten and the whole thing goes pretty poor in wet weather. We watch Ten through the VCR which seems to boost the signal enough to solve the flicker. From previous experience replacing the coax cable can work wonders. Do you have line of sight to Black Mountain? If so, good reception should be possible.

Cheers,
John

[outback]

Most likely an unpowered amplifier. :p

Someone who actually knows what he's on about will tell me I'm wrong, but what the hell.

I did my own setup, I use two separate antennas, both phased arrays, one for VHF one for UHF. Remember I'm in the middle of nowhere, the TV signal takes so long to get here, I only get last weeks news. :D

Each antenna goes into the masthead part of the amplifier, then a single run of coax down to the house to the rear of one TV, here there is the power supply for the amplifier, coax goes into the power supply, here thre is an option to split the signal to two separate Tv's, which I do.

[bennylaird]

I'd say the previous owner packed up your power supply when he left. Usually it's a plug in pack with an inline conector to pass power to the amp via the coax.

What brand is the masthead amp?

Without power it's an attenuator. Just reduces your signal.

[Trav]

Thanks all.

John - no line of sight to Black Mountain. The house, if anything, looks south (and is in Waramanga, just over from you in Stirling).

I can get OK reception with rabbit ears - not good enough that I want to use it very often - hence the move to foxtel.

Perhaps it is time to replace the coax. But for $100, I might be able to get a STB, so who knows.

Outback - I had heard (perhaps incorrectly), that the vertical parts of a combination antenna were for UHF, and the horizontal parts for VHF. As I only hvae the horizontal parts, does that mean that I can only get VHF, hence the crap reception?

Benny - I'll check the brand on the weekend. I'll also have a look to see if there was somewhere for a powerpack.

Cheers

Trav

[bennylaird]

Here's a ref for the Kingrays.

http://www.gme.net.au/matv/power_supplies.php

The power supply should look like this:

[Trav]

Thanks Benny

Definitely don't have something like that.

Cheers

Trav

[outback]

I'm in way over my head now, but might as well get shot as a sheep and not a lamb.


It depends.

In different areas the broadcast is vertical and some horizontal. You probably have a combo type antenna, that is, it does both. When you travel around, and I mean long way around, you will notice someone has the same antanna as you, but mounted at 90 degrees to what yours is. It just means that is the way the signal is broadcast.

Sounds like you really need a power supply for your amplifier, I reckon Benny smacked it fair over the head when he said the previous owner cleaned up when he moved out.

[bennylaird]

The Horizontal and vertical you mention is the polarisation of the signal. A radio wave has an electric field and a magnetic field. These are separted by 90 degrees along the line of propagation. Lost yet? They tend to use different polarisation between areas just to cancel out itterference from distant transmitters.

All you need to do is look at everyone elses and make sure it is the same. Sure it will be and as you can get some signal with a pair of wabbit ears then there must be lots of signal around.

You may be able to get a good reception purly by bypassing the amp. Just make up a short lead to connect the antenna to the feed past the amp and see what it's like.

[knucklehead]

Trav, becarefull that the box on the antenna is an masthead amp. Many antennas have a balin in this spot.

If this is the case it probably has a connection between the co-ax cable and some ribbon cable going to the antenna elements. If it is just a balin have a look inside. It may have obvious signs of damage or water ingress.

In short look of the simple stuff first. Many guys will sell you a new antenna and amp to fix it only to find the problem is a $2 connector.

[Tankstand]

Trav,

You can't just plug in a STB (Correct me if I'm wrong here folks!). They also need a reasonable signal. I have always had dodgy reception on Ch2, I bought a STB and it couldn't tune in Ch2 either because (as it told me )the signal strength was less than 50%! (Took that sucker right back!)

Thank heavens for Foxtel Digital!

Crystal clear Ch2 and SBS! (Unless there is a storm somewhere!)

[Clinton1]

bennys talking my language! !!

[doug1]

Trav

You need to be a little carefull with the ampliier, depending on its model number and maker it may need different types of power supply, they are not universal

get a model number off it first if you can , then can probably find the power supply you should have attached to it.

They usually plug in behind the tv to the coax and send power back up the coax.

If you had good reception a couple of streets away it shold be reasonably easy to fix this one if the antenna is suitable for where you are

Doug

[bennylaird]

A masthead amp will only amplify the signal the antenna can pick up so it's not a miracle worker. Be sure your antenna is suited to the channels you want to pick up. Channel 2 is in the lower range and needs the longer antenna elements whereas SBS is higher and requires the shorter elements. You can buy a high gain antenna that cover the full band or separate antennae. Also the transmitters are not all on the same mountain so you can improve reception by using multiply antenne each aimed in the right direction, usually and overkill. Other problems are valleys and large trees. Trees make great antenna and shield your signal. Signal that passes and is reflected back to you causes ghosting, two pics side by side on the same screen.

Best advice is spend a little and get an installer to set it up. He will know the area and have a signal meter if he is any good and will set you right for years to come.

Next step is to start playing in the roof with distribution amps and splitters etc to get the whole house wired with Foxtel and HD TV to every set, a second Foxtel bos is only $20 a month extra and worth it when you have a few kids in the house. Only trouble is:

Turn off the Bl--dy TV and get out to the shed and enjoy your woodwork instead!!!!!!

[Trav]

Thanks all - esp Benny. Good advice.

I wandered into Dick Smith's today and had a look at their aerial setups etc. I actually spotted the booster that I have - it is a kingray - and noticed that it had a power supply exactly as you pictured Benny. As that power supply is nowhere to be found, I may need another one.

I ahve also learned that the coax cable has a join in it - conveniently placed which is good. I am thinking it may be easier to replace all the coax wire - it only seems to be a few $ per metre.

I will also have a look and check the condition of all the other connections etc.

Hopefully I will be able to report back on Monday. It is, however, meant to rain this weekend again. Wonderful. Great moving weather.

Cheers

Trav

[Iain]

Kingray amps work on a multitude of voltages dependant upon the model, Set top boxes do not necesarily require high signal, depends upon the quality of the unit, mine is an Emtech and works as low as 30db microvolt, normal TV will start to fall off at about 50dbmv.
A balun is generally a smallish device in many forms and is usually within 150mm of the antenna.
If you wish to upgrade the antenna consider a log periodic which is 75ohm and does not require a balun=less to go wrong, more compact, higher gain.
Replace coax with at least RG6 dual shield but preferably quad use F type spli
tters if you want other points, twist on fittings are available from most TV outlets and do not require any special tools.
Kingray also have different powered amps from 10db to 40db, bigger is not always better and too much power to the front end can cause damage or similar results to lack of signal.
Amps like to be run at maximum output for optimum performance, not like your stereo which will distort at high levels, these are operational amps and work in a different manner.

[ChrisH]

The box on the antenna mast may not be an amplifier at all, Kingray also have diplexers which are a non-powered gadget to combine separate VHF and UHF antennas into one downlead to the TV.

However considering it sin't working properly, I'd guess it is an amp and needs a power supply.
Kingrays are almost all 22 volt AC but newer ones are 17 volt AC. I believe they all work OK with the 17 volt power pack.

go to Kingray's website for details of which models use which power supplies.

First just to check, bypass the amp by connecting the input to the output at the amp, if pic is good you may want to forget about the amp and just connect the cable direct to the antenna.

You really need to find out what channels are broadcast on UHF and VHF so you can decide if you have the antennas you need or not.

Chris

[Trav]

Thanks all.

I have done some more research that I thought I would share with people. I had to move house on the weekend, so I didn't get a chance to try and fix my reception problems, so this is all theory at the moment.

For anyone who is having reception problems, these two documents look pretty useful in identifying and resolving the problems.

http://www1.electusdistribution.com.au/images_uploaded/tvrecepe.pdf

and

http://web.acma.gov.au/radcomm/publications/better_tv_radio/BTRbookl.pdf

I understand that my antenna is a UHF only antenna, but that I have a repeater station close (direct line-of-sight) by that transmits all the 5 main stations in UHF frequencies. But I am finding it really hard to work out what these frequencies are - or if this info is entirely correct.

The box on the amp is certainly a masthead amplifier, but there is no power supply, so it simply serves as an attenuator at the moment. Wonderful. I also have the crappest cable imaginable I suspect. However, much of the info on this subject suggests that these amps may be more trouble than help. I think I will disconnect it and see if I can improve the situation.

Can someone confirm the best type of coax cable in this situation? Is it RG6?

More info to come as I find it. I would appreciate any info on how to find the frequencies that all the stations are transmitted on in Canberra - Mt Taylor in particular.

Cheers

Trav
(reception noob)

[doug1]

This may help
source thread: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=7806

Now for something coming from a non-antenna installer. For best results, it is good to have a proper UHF antenna and VHF antenna that is digital ready. It also is good to have high-quality cables (eg. RG6) BUT I have recieved digital TV (from Tuggeranong Hill (all UHF)) with a $15 DSE UHF/VHF Antenna.

So I suggest that you try to get another type of antenna (indoor or out but not the one you have (which sounds the same as mine). It's not good for VHF. Even simple rabbit ears would be better). One antenna that you could use for indoors is a Fracco (pardon the spelling). I think Gadget sells them (PM him).

Also, with a cheap indoor antenna, you have to do a lot of tweaking to get good reception. This involves moving the antenna around a lot and making sure the reception on each channel is good.

BTW. Signal Strength isn't the best indication of your reception. It's the actual quality that matters with Digital TV (eg. I have had 50-60% signal strength with around 80-90% quality (with a VisionPlus DVB-T)).

Just for reference, here is my signal strength/quality readings:
----------Black Mountain-----------
SC TEN VHF6 Strength: ~95%Quality: ~23db
ABC VHF9A Strength: ~78%Quality: ~19.1db
WIN and PRIME Not avalible due the VHF antenna being old (doesn't really matter. It picks up ABC from Black Mountain which is good when the ABC Tuggeranong Hill transmitter dies)
SBS UHF30 Strength: ~83%Quality: ~20.1db
----------Tuggeranong Hill-----------
SBS UHF57 Strength: ~90%Quality: ~22db
ABC UHF59 Strength: ~90%Quality: ~22db
SC TEN UHF62 Strength: ~77%Quality: ~18.7db
WIN UHF65 Strength: ~84%Quality: ~20.5db
PRIME UHF68 Strength: ~88%Quality: ~21.5db

All readings are from using a DVICO FusionHDTV Digital TV card, mostly RG5 cables. newish Hills UHF antenna and a old VHF antenna which is not digital ready. Readings are from the suburb of Fadden.

end copy

Doug

[Iain]

For best results, it is good to have a proper UHF antenna and VHF antenna that is digital ready.
Doug
That is one of my pet hates, what the hell is digital ready, just a left handed wank inspired by marketing gurus to sell what is no different to other antennas.
Either an antenna is cut for specific frequencies or it is not and to get someone to buy a new antenna 'for digital' is nothing short of a rip off.
Antennas are usually cut for specific bands being:
Band 2... channel 2-5
Band 3... Channel 6-12 (digital VHF starts at 6)
Band 4... Channel 24-34
Band 5... Channel 35-69
These are also available in combinations, eg 4-5 3-4-5 3-4 and as stated earlier a log periodic is a very compact antenna with an ectremely high gain, but will not go below channel 6, which for digital is not a problem.
As for signal strength on STB's when they read ??% signal strength, this is an extrtemely nebulous figure, eg: 60%, but 60% of what????
Ideally you need a signal strength meter for an accurate reading, or better still a spectrum anyliser to get the best signal with minimum distortion, but at about $3k not a viable option unless you know how to drive one or have the use for one.
And RG6 quad is about the best coax to use, cheaper from a TV repair shop than BUnnies and probably better quality, and if using splitters go for 'F' types, wall plates make sure thay are not the isolated variety if using an amp as they won't work.
Doug, those db figures are way too low for operating any TV system, ideally for TV the optimum strength is 75db, below 50db things start going snowy, my STB will work at 30db but will freeze and pixellate and that is one of the better ones.
I don't really know what those figures are indicating :confused:

[reybec]

i don't know about foxtel but when we had optus tv connected we were getting absolute crap picture from the antenna (a palm frond had fallen down & broken it) beforehand.

after optus was connected the reception on all channels even the free to air was perfect using the same antenna because it run through a cable apparently.

[Iain]

Pretty sure Optus run free to air as part of the service.

[Trav]

Foxtel only provide SBS and ABC free to air channels in Canberra at the moment. I think some of the other states get nine as well. But not in Canberra. I wish that they would hurry up and get the other free to air channels - it would stop me having to fiddle around with the antenna etc.

TRav

[Trav]

Thanks all.

I had a look on the weekend. I definitely have a masthead amp in the loop, but no power supply. I removed the amp from the loop and the reception immediately improved. Out of sight improvement on 7 and 9, but 10 was still pretty poor. I get ABC and SBS through foxtel, so I am not worried about them.

Of my two antenna sockets in the house, one was working well and the other was diabolical. I followed the cable through, thinking there might be some kind of break etc in the wire. I found the photo at the bottom. I couldn't beleive it. It looks like they hvae ripped it out of a light fitting. So it looks like I need to go and buy some new cable this week as this join was halfway along.

I think I might invest in a digital receiver - that should clear the remaining image problems for me. The main issues are now with ghosting, not poor reception.

Trav

[Iain]

That join looks OK to me :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
If the cable is OK get two F connectors and a joiner and put it back together, if it's crap just replace it with RG6 quad, when we go full digital it will be to your advantage.

[Trav]

Thanks Iain. Am I right in understanding that you need a special crimping tool in order to put an F connector on the coax? Or can I just do it with pliers? Also, does it matter where the silver shielding goes?

Thanks

Trav

[Iain]

Get twist on connectors and beware of the foil, some is insulated on one side and you will not get a connection.
I always remove the foil for this very reason, also make sure that the connectors match the coax as RG6 and RG59 are different diameters, and quad is thicker again so be sure to ask for the right one.
The joiner is a standard fitting and will connect either.
The type of coax should be stamped on the outer shield.
If you send me a PM with your address I will send you a couple of connectors and joiners, I still have a few.

[outback]

Trav, I think your'e just being fussy now. :rolleyes:

[Barry_White]

Thanks Iain. Am I right in understanding that you need a special crimping tool in order to put an F connector on the coax? Or can I just do it with pliers? Also, does it matter where the silver shielding goes?

Thanks

Trav

Trav a set of RG6 crimping pliers will set you back about $30.00. Both Dick Smith and Bunnings carry them. If this is a permanant home and you want it to work properly I would use RG6 cable and use F Connectors you can buy proper cable strippers also from Dick Smiths.

Attached are pics of Wall Plates, F Connectors, Crimping Pliers a Cable Stripper and an F Connection Splitter.

[Trav]

Thanks Bazza

It is a permanent home (for a few years at least) - so I think I will invest in new cable and appropriate tools.

Outback - I know :D. Sometimes I just ask for the unreasonable. Like being able to see which team is actually batting in the cricket. :D

Trav

[Trav]

I had a closer look at the cable last night. It seems to be RG 75 - I did a search but didn't come up with anything.

How does this compare to RG 6 or even RG 59?

Thanks

Trav

[Barry_White]

I had a closer look at the cable last night. It seems to be RG 75 - I did a search but didn't come up with anything.

How does this compare to RG 6 or even RG 59?

Thanks

Trav

Trav

Nothing compares to RG6. It was developed for the digital era and is the only cable used by the professionals.

It is quad shielded. The other stuff will work but the difference in cost is minimal.

It is a whole system when used with F connectors.

When I built my house the only thing that was available was single shielded cable. About 2 years ago I rewired my house with RG6 and all F connectors.

I have eleven TV points in the house and I set it up with a distribution amplifier in the the roof. The signal comes into the house straight into the Video Recorder and then out of the video up to the roof to the distribution amplifier and from there it goes to the various TV points through out the house. I even have one in the garage/workshop which is detached from the house.

The benefit of this is I can watch a Video or Pay TV at any point in the house from the one source.

[Iain]

Congratulations to the previous owner :rolleyes:
RG75 is 50 ohm coax for two way radio work, complete mismatch here I'm afraid.

[Trav]

Thanks Baz and Iain.

Sounds like I need to get some new coax this wekeend too!

Cheers

Trav

[Trav]

would ahve run the coax this weekend except it bucketed wqith rain all bloody day. :(

Perhaps next weekend.

Iain - your package arrived - thanks.

Trav

[Trav]

I finally got around to buying some RG6 quad shield the other day to replace the dodgy coax cable in the roof. I ran a new line down direct to the TV and the picture is not almost perfect. A little ghosting etc, but nothing a bit of fiddling with the antenna won't fix.

That means I can watch the cricket on the weekend. What a relief!

Particular thanks to Iain, Barry and Benny for their help on this one. Iain - your package was perfect - I need to chase it all through the walls yet, so I will hang onto the cutter until then.

One further question if I may. Is there any reason I shouldn't use the excess RG6 cable to make a few fly leads? They certainly must be better than the dodgy ones I have now.

Also, will RG6 work as a digital coax cable (ie to carry digital audio from my DVD player to the amp) or is it not suited to this type of application. I only hvae 2 optical inputs on my amp, but want to connect my foxtel and PS2 through these connections, and perhaps use the digital coax for the DVD player. But only if the quality is the same.

CHeers

Travis

[Iain]

Yes and Yes.
In fact some of the skinny white fly leads are so crappy that anything can get in, digital coax leads are the same, in fact, some will sell you 'digital coax' at mega bucks and it is exactly the same, you can get RCA plugs for coax or just get a 'F' to RCA adapter and use the same fittings as you have now.

[Trav]

Brilliant

Thanks mate. Have a good weekend. Roll on the cricket!

Trav

[iamskippy]

I have moved into a house that has no external aerial.

I was told that you can purchase a small adaptor plug and use the foxtel connection as a normal aerial. Is this the case … is it a simple exercise?

Any assistance greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Barry_White]

I have moved into a house that has no external aerial.

I was told that you can purchase a small adaptor plug and use the foxtel connection as a normal aerial. Is this the case … is it a simple exercise?

Any assistance greatly appreciated.

Thanks

That would not be correct unless you are subscribing to Foxtel in which case I believe you can watch free to air TV through the Foxtel connection.

[bennylaird]

If it's the satellite antenna it will be about as much use as a coathanger for free to air. (so may work fine, lol)

Just get Foxtel, then you don't have to put up with 7 or 10.

[bennylaird]

Yes and Yes.
In fact some of the skinny white fly leads are so crappy that anything can get in, digital coax leads are the same, in fact, some will sell you 'digital coax' at mega bucks and it is exactly the same, you can get RCA plugs for coax or just get a 'F' to RCA adapter and use the same fittings as you have now.

Maybee we should highlight those crappy white leads sold in most supermarkets etc.

Don't bother!!! Fencing wire would be better at least it wouldn't break.
:D :D :D

As soon as you see one you have probably found the problem to bad reception. Common prob is the bodgy joins in the connector, designed to be used for one plugin then self destruct.

Do yourself a favour and don't try and cut costs with your cabling, get quality and that way you can veg out watching tv.

[lnt9000]

If it's the satellite antenna it will be about as much use as a coathanger for free to air. (so may work fine, lol)

Just get Foxtel, then you don't have to put up with 7 or 10.

Yeah right get foxtel, and watch repeats, adds, etc, your no better off than watching 7 or 10, at least your not paying to watch adds!!

If you have a sat dish Installed then buy yourself a sat decoder for fta services, shouldn't cost any more than $200.00, then you can point it at:
C1,B1,PAS2,PAS8,NSS6,AS4,B3 ETC, and receive many many stations that you can flick through with the remote and annoy the hell out of your partner, although it helps if you speak other lanquages as there are a lot of ethnic channels, and if you get tired of climbing the roof to turn the sat dish to point to another satellite then get a motek(motor which turns your dish approx $120.00) the picture is digital and crystal clear, for a detailed channel list go to :http://www.lyngsat.com/asia.html

(Rg6 quad shield) wow must be good stuff they have actually shielded it four times?? couldn't they get it right the first time??
Beware there is a lot of rubbish rg6 out there, some of the older coax manufactured with a real wire furry and 1mm centre conductor was and still remains the bees knees.:)

[Iain]

Now tell him how easy it is to align the dish without a meter or squawker:rolleyes:
Heard a caravan salesman telling a retired couple about sat TV, just point the dish at the sky and away you go, and even about some dead spots in the outback where there is no sat reception (must be the UFO's blocking the signal).
These people have no idea how to point an antenna yet alone a dish:eek: