OSMO PolyX RAW oil - playing around with it

[FenceFurniture]

I've wanted to have a go with Osmo PolyX RAW oil ever since I saw a workbench finished with it at the Kyneton Lost Trades Fair in March this year. The benchtop was American Ash - a very pale timber with some thin black figure through it. It looked really good - just like raw timber as the name implies. There have been times when I have been disappointed with how dark some timber goes with other oils (some of the red fence palings goes almost black and featureless).

It's not the easiest product to get hold of, but amongst the resellers was Illawarra Woodworking School, although it is not listed on the IWS website (https://woodworkschool.com/). So I ordered a can from there by email and Chris Parks was kind enough to pu on his next visit there, and hand it over last Saturday.

It is not cheap, but no decent finish is. A 750ml can is $65, so $86 per litre. Livos Oils are $35 for 250ml in small quantity, so Osmo is well below that. Pretty sure the last time I purchased Rustins Danish (an old favourite) it was $40 for a litre. (but Rustins has a short shelf life before Polymer chains form into unusable gluggy lumps, even in a collapsible bag)

Now this Osmo product is a bit different to others. It is a blend of oils and waxes, and some fairly high smelling chemicals and so needs to be used in a well ventilated room. When I opened the can I wasn't sure if the smell was fly spray or Airfix glue from my childhood! It looks like white enamel paint, and has Titanium Dioxide as the white pigment. Glider (Mick) suggested that it might be an emulsion, and that may just be spot on Mick. It doesn't appear to need much if any stirring - I did, but the consistency in the can was uniform right from the start - no sediment at the bottom. It is very viscous, and has to be really worked off the brush to get an even spread. I did not purchase the very expensive roller or brush. I just used a normal brush to spread the "oil" evenly, and then clothed it down with t-shirt material for an even finish (the same as I do for most oiling).

It claims to be resistant to wine, beer, cola, coffee, tea, fruit juice, milk and water, and is suitable for floors because it is so hard wearing. Hence why it was used on that bench, and why it sounds good for a table. The can also states “When dry it is safe for humans, animals and plants and is suitable for children’s toys.” But does that mean it’s food safe?



Ingredients list: Oils (Sunflower, Soyabean, Thistle), Waxes (Carnauba, Candelilla), Paraffins, Titanium Dioxide, Siccatives (drying agents), and water repellent additives. Disaromatised White Spirit (benzene free).


I think they need to disaromatise a couple of other things in there too…..


“Caution: for wardrobes, cupboards and drawers, only one thin coat should be applied with a cloth”. Now I have no idea why, but it does tell me that brush on-cloth off is within spec. :;


Storage: Shelf life is 5 years or more (CRIKEY!) if lid is tightly closed. That implies after it has been opened - FANTASTIC! If thickened by frost it will become normal again after a day or so.




....to be continued....

[FenceFurniture]

Sunday arvo I sanded up some boards for some testing. I have some amazingly highly figured Blackbutt boards (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f14/extraordinary-blackbutt-boutique-timbers-221514#post2088568) that I am particularly keen to see the Osmo on, as they will be for a Dining Table for himself and so I have a very high vested interest in the end result!


The other boards I am testing it on are:


She Oak (very orange colour)
Ironbark (stripey with blonds and reds)
Sydney Bluegum (paler orange/red)
Blackwood (the darkest of the test boards)




On the 2m long Blackbutt board I marked off 5 x 400mm sections:

One to be left unfinished for colour comparison,
one for my current home made WOP (based on BLO so a slight orange tint),
and 3 for Osmo. The first will be as directed (sand to 240, two coats 24 hours apart), the second will be sand to 240, Oil, sand 500/800/4000, oil again, and the third is sand up to 4000 and oil twice.


The Europeans seem to have this thing about stopping sanding at 240 grit. Maybe it’s because most of their timber is soft, and there’s not much point going more than say 400, but I don’t think they could have seen what happens to a piece of Eucalyptus when it is sanded up through the grits to 4000. The process is an amazing revelation of grain. Starting from about 320 each grit reveals more and more of the beauty of the timber. Off the thicknesser I go 120 or 150 then 180-240-320-500-800-1500-3000 and then finish with a sponge impregnated with 4000 grit. The timber is shiny and all the chatoyance is revealed, particularly from 800 onwards.


I guess you have to do it a couple of times to understand how good it looks. Some say that this polishing (say from 800 up) is really just burnishing the timber and that it won’t accept the finish penetrating into the surface (I reckon that's tosh - wood is porous). Well that is why I am doing one section as 240-Oil-500/800/4000-oil. It will allow any extra penetration that occurs at 240 grit, and then will be able to be compared to 240-oil-oil.

[FenceFurniture]

At this point (Tuesday) I have completed the two coats on all but one section, which is the sand to 4000, oil twice section.

I will take some pics to show the results as best I can, but you are going to have to rely on my assessment of it for the most part - it is very difficult to capture an image that works like the human eye does. In the case of quilting (Blackbutt) one has to move around the board to get the effect so a still photograph can never convey that.

I will have to wait for some sunlight so i can get consistently well lit pics, and that may take a day or two atm. Thursday looks promising.

In the interim, here are my thoughts on it.

On the Ironbark board - if I told you it was still raw timber you'd believe me - and that is the whole point. Even with a naked eye there is hardly any difference between two coats of Osmo and nothing but sanding (up to 4000). It has imparted a satin finish but the timber was fairly polished from the sanding (a pic will show that). Worthwhile.

On the Blackwood board - a terrible result! No chatoyance at all, and it can be seen on the unfinished section. Blackwood must be reasonably open grained, and the grain has filled up with Tit Dioxide white lines. The timber is dead looking. Don't do it!

On the She Oak board - another bad result. S.O. is very tight grained, and it now looks like it has just come home from a day at the cricket - a thin milky film over the beautiful grain, just like defeated zinc cream on human skin at the end of a hot sweaty day! The sanded but unfinished timber looks FAR superior. Don't do it!

On the Sydney Bluegum board. Very fortunately this is at least passable (because it will be the middle board of the table with Blackbutt either side of it). Somehow the "defeated zinc cream" didn't happen, but I have only applied one coat to this board so far. Passable - so far.

On the Blackbutt board. There are a number of different results here, and I'm yet to do the second coat on one of the sections, but:


Sanded 240, Oil, Oil. Has good 3D in the quilting. Only slightly darker than the section without any oil (but not as remarkable as the Ironbark). The quilting probably has the better contrast between the sides of the "ridges" which slightly accents it a little more. Worthwhile.

Sanded 240, Oil, sanded 500/800/4000, Oil. Looks so similar to the previous one that it is obviously not worthwhile doing the extra sanding - the surface feels the same on both of them too. The oil sits on top of the timber as a film, but is hard to see because the timber is so blonde. Worthwhile, but some wasted effort.

Sanded to 4000, Oil, Oil. Well this one is a bit of a surprise. As noted above I haven't done the second coat yet, but the timber has taken a slightly darker colour than the two methods above. It is noticeable, and about halfway between the colour of the above and the home made WOP tint. It is also much smoother than the 240/oil/4000/oil, but that may change after the second coat.
Sanded to 4000, HM WOP. A BLO tinted result that I am familiar with (and don't want on the Blackbutt). I want to make some HM WOP based on Tung Oil and see what that yields.


In about a week I want to test the different sections with red wine for varying lengths of time (10,30,60,120 minutes and overnite). A week should be long enough to fully cure.



It is my intention in the near-ish-ish future to start another thread comparing a whole bunch of finishes - different oils, Polyurethane, WOP, HM WOP, maybe shellac (although I'm pretty schlack at that :D )

Pics of results on Thursday with half a chance.

[FenceFurniture]

So far, the summary seems to be that Osmo can give a good result, but is highly dependent upon timber colour (but not always) and whether or not the grain is open. Certainly the blonder the timber the better the chance of a good result.

[FenceFurniture]

Just now I put the second coat on the outstanding 2 areas, which was the sand to 4000-oil-oil Blackbutt and the Sydney Bluegum. I think the Bluegum is still going to be ok. That patch of BB is definitely a slightly more tan colour than the other two patches, but not necessarily in a bad way.

Some more observations:

1. On the can it says "High Solids" and it sure is. Apart from being very viscous, the solids will dry white in any cracks or small holes. Where once I had a few little black worm holes I now have white holes that look more like craters in chalk with their concave white surfaces. What were obviously worm holes now look like non-descript voids. With fine cracks it depends on the width of the crack - I have some that are now dotted lines. Another coat would fill them up even more, but at the moment they look a bit weird. Normally an oil will just penetrate in to the crack - it's the viscosity that suspends it and leaves the solids behind.

2. Similar story with any tear out. These boards were not prepped up as they normally would be. They will have to have quite a number of passes on a drum sander to eliminate the tear-out first, and then some filler will be needed for the cracks (they are unavoidable in timber like this, but that is the challenge). There are many patches of the quilting that have torn out on the thicky, and they have also filled up with Tit Ox (there must be a gag in there somewhere). They look, ahhh, pretty ordinary, but normally they wouldn't or shouldn't be there. On the section that has the HM WOP the tear out is nowhere near as accented - just a bit darker.

3. On the two BB sections that were already completed the surface was a little rough. The first section was only sanded to 240 anyway, but this Osmo sits right up on top of the timber like a lacquer or Polyurethane etc. The brush I used was a super cheapy because I finished with a light cloth stroke. There were still brush lines there (or the cloth imparted them), and so these two sections were a bit rough for my liking. I sanded them with 3000 grit. This did not alter the gloss level (still satin) but it significantly improved the surface to the touch - it feels silky now. At the moment it may just be the 240-oil-oil section that is showing the quilting best, because of that increased contrast on either side of the "ridges" that I noted earlier.

Also note that is is fairly cool in the shed - around 10-12°. I put the heater on for a good long while before any of the oilings over the last few days, and left it on for 3-4 hours afterwards. The coldness of the boards would certainly make this stuff even more viscous, so the boards needed to be deeply (not just the surface) warmed up to avoid being a cold-sink. I refer back to Osmo's "frost" caveat.

[cava]

Crikey, 4000 grit sanding. The highest I have is 2000 (which I have never used), and I thought that overkill.

[FenceFurniture]

Use it and weep at what you've previously missed George!

[qwertyu]

Thanks for sharing your observation!

[hurcorh]

Interesting tests. I've used Osmo Polyx Raw on American White oak. Sanded to 180, applied 1 coat with a roller as per directions, very light 400 grit sand and a second coat buffed in and excess removed. I'm in the boat of not oversanding for penetrating finishes especially for this type of application with Raw where you don't want to enhance the timber.
As you found out, this is not suited for darker timbers. Ash, oak and maple take to this finish well but any darker you start to notice imperfections in your work and an overall 'milky' look that just doens't work well. The website even states "and is most suited to light coloured wood species"

In my opinion I would not use this product if trying to achieve maximizing chatoyance in any timber. Standard polyx does an excellent job of this. Polyx Raw isn't meant for enhancing the wood at all.
Here's the AM Oak table I did. First picture is about 1 week after application. Second picture is about two months later. Significant yellowing which I was not expecting.

436685436686

[VikingCode]

It is not cheap, but no decent finish is. A 750ml can is $65, so $86 per litre. Livos Oils are $35 for 250ml in small quantity, so Osmo is well below that. Pretty sure the last time I purchased Rustins Danish (an old favourite) it was $40 for a litre. (but Rustins has a short shelf life before Polymer chains form into unusable gluggy lumps, even in a collapsible bag)


Not that long ago I did a video on what hardwax oils are, as well as their comparative price per m^2 coverage, which you can see the results here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q-1IYHbiCP9pFz-gxNSlQgwLly_C4ypQkJvlmWXzrGI/edit?usp=sharing

PolyX is "expensive", but its all relative. Feast Watsons clear poly is actually more expensive.


The Europeans seem to have this thing about stopping sanding at 240 grit. Maybe it’s because most of their timber is soft, and there’s not much point going more than say 400, but I don’t think they could have seen what happens to a piece of Eucalyptus when it is sanded up through the grits to 4000.

The way most (all?) HWO's penetrate in seems to be blocked by sanding "too high". On harder timbers, OSMO australia recommend no more than 180g, though I haven't had issues with 220g abranet on furniture. Fiddes HWO worked OK, but was a bit funny on the sample hairy oak pen I tried it on, which was sanded to 600g.

I haven't actually used PolyX raw, just Satin (3032) and Fiddes Hardwax Oil. In terms of application, 5-6mm nap microfibre roller for flat surfaces gives a great finish, possibly the best. I like the Monarch Razorbacks (https://www.bunnings.com.au/monarch-razorback-100mm-mini-roller-kit_p1662796) over the rollers from OSMO - handle is more comfortable anyway. Use a sparing amount of finish, with a reasonable amount of pressure, and you'll get great results.

The next best results are from white scotchbrite pads, again sparingly used and worked into the grain. IMO don't wipe it off after that. You're just wasting finish if you do. It takes a bit of practice to get the right amount with the scotchbrite pad, but works great on carvings, spindles, and other difficult-to-roll surfaces.

[Mr Brush]

Not sure why you'd use the Polyx Raw on darker timbers, as it's loaded with white stuff. I keep the standard Polyx Satin 3032 for anything darker than mid-tone, and just bought a small can of the Polyx Raw for light timbers like rock maple, ash, etc.

White scotchbrite pads are good, but I've just acquired some of those Monarch microfibre rollers to try as well. For first coat sand to 240 grit, apply very sparingly with scotchbrite pad/roller, allow to dry. One thing I need to try is maybe a second flood coat gently rubbed in with 400 grit W&D, then wipe the excess off. Not sure how long to leave the first coat before trying this?

[qwertyu]

Where do you guys buy white scotch bite pads? Is there a reason to use white over other scourer pads?

How about these non-abrasive pads?
https://www.bunnings.com.au/scotch-brite-155-x-100mm-non-scratch-scourer-pads-6-pack_p4460590

[hurcorh]

Where do you guys buy white scotch bite pads? Is there a reason to use white over other scourer pads?

How about these non-abrasive pads?
https://www.bunnings.com.au/scotch-brite-155-x-100mm-non-scratch-scourer-pads-6-pack_p4460590

I use the bear-tex pads from the sandpaperman. Can't comment on the ones you listed i haven't felt them in person.

[VikingCode]

Where do you guys buy white scotch bite pads? Is there a reason to use white over other scourer pads?

How about these non-abrasive pads?
https://www.bunnings.com.au/scotch-brite-155-x-100mm-non-scratch-scourer-pads-6-pack_p4460590

CWS have them (https://www.cwsonline.com.au/shop/item/scotchbrite-pad-white-150x230mm) - I cut them up to about 50mm x 75mm, makes a good applicator that way.

Do not get the "No4" rollers from CWS though. They're really bad quality - drop lint everywhere, don't spin easily on any of the roller frames I have, and did a terrible job distributing finish. I had to sand back the coat to fix it up!

[FenceFurniture]

Ironbark. This is a defect-free board. Sanded to 800 then 3000, oiled twice, then buffed with 3000 again briefly. There is no finish on either end for about 90-100mm (and the board is about 115mm wide). The ends are glossier than the oiled middle, but even with the naked eye there is very little difference. Where the oil stops at each side there is a build up of excess which would not normally happen (because the oiling stroke would be along the whole board). A very natural look from Osmo is the result.

436799


Just sanding on the left and Osmo on the right.
436797


Osmo detail.
436798

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.
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Sydney Bluegum. Sanded to 800 then 3000, oiled twice, then buffed with 3000 again briefly. Some of the grain has a bit of white in it, but not too bad. Normally, I would use a different finish but this board will be incorporated with the bland Blackbutt boards, so I needed to find out what it would look like. A fairly acceptable result.

Sanded only on the left, oiled on the right
436801


Osmo detail
436802




She Oak. Sanded to 800 then 3000, oiled twice, then buffed with 3000 again briefly. Looks like zinc cream on a sweaty face, hours later. A terrible result. :puke:

436804

Sanded only.
436805


But, curiously, it really makes the rays stand out from this angle only.
436816

[FenceFurniture]

Blackbutt. As previously stated, I did a number of different tests with the Blackbutt board, because it is the most important.

Raw timber sanded to 800 then 3000.
436822


Sanded to 240, oiled, oiled, then a quick buff with 3000 again.
436823


Sanded to 240, oiled, sanded to 800-3000, oiled, then a quick buff with 3000 again. (this one is actually identical in colour to the previous one - just a very slight difference in photo exposure)
436824


Sanded to 800-3000, oiled, oiled, then a quick buff with 3000 again. This one is just a little darker than the previous two - perhaps it is just this little patch of timber that is darker?
436825


One coat of home made WOP (50% Polyurethane, 25% BLO, 25% Gum Turps)
The light for photos was a little bit variable today, so even though it may not look it, this one is significantly more tinted than the Osmo patches.
436827


I want to try this with WOP based on Tung Oil - the BLO lends an orange tint which I'd prefer to not be there. The WOP does bring out the quilting though (but I'm not sure how it will go with red wine).

Of the three Osmo result on BB, the middle one can be discarded - more work in sanding for exactly the same result.
There is slightly more quilting effect with the third one, because it the raw timber was sanded up to higher grit (3000).
However, because the Osmo Oil sits up on top of the timber so much, the first one (sanded to just 240,oil,oil) is almost the same, and they certainly feel the same. The Oil has filled up the 240 grit scratches in the first one, and then i just buffed (them all) with 3000 briefly after the final oiling.

Even though they say it is not necessary, I think a quick 3000 buff between coats might be beneficial.

[FenceFurniture]

I didn't bother photographing the Blackwood. Trust me - it looks like shight.


Black worm holes turn white.
436829

As does tear out (which wouldn't normally be there)
436830

Fine cracks can become dotted lines because of the high solids.
436831


WOP doesn't do any of that (there is a little residual dust or lint). The tear out is just a little darker, and matt finish compared to semi-gloss.
436832

[FenceFurniture]

The Ironbark board has been finished for 72 hours, so even though I said I would wait a week (and there is no mention of a "fully cured" time on the can), I thought i may as well have a go. If there is a fail point then i can just repeat from there in 4 days time.

Earlier this arvo I put 5 pools of red wine on the Ironbark, and they are to be left for 10-30-60-120 minutes, and overnight. (also on the Bluegum board)

436833


As I was preparing those previous posts I was going down to the shed to wipe up each pool after the number of minutes timed out.

10 minutes - no problem, straight off and feels good
30 minutes straight off, but feels a tiny bit rough in one part of the grain. No stain though.
60 minutes - well I was going to report that this was the fail point, because after I wiped it up the timber still looked a little wet. However, this has now dried out, but is a little rough in the same streak of grain.
120 minutes - not looking too good. Quite obviously a pink stain - will check again when it is fully dry, but this looks like the fail point. However, the Bluegum (a less hard timber) has no stain, wetness or roughness. :shrug:

[FenceFurniture]

I think I am inexorably coming to the conclusion that Osmo PolyX RAW is for even more specific purposes than I first thought. I never expected it to look any good on timber darker than blond, but I hadn't counted on the quality of the timber surface being quite so important. That is, if there are any cracks or worm holes they either need to be filled with clear epoxy, or you have to put up with them being white highlights.

Filling the worm holes in this Blackbutt is not to onerous but there are too many cracks to do because the timber is so curly.

So, for a good result where you can't really see evidence of the Osmo, you need:

Quite pale blond timber (others may work, like the Ironbark, but test check)
no surface checks or holes
fine grained timber
Sand to 240
Oil
Maybe a quick buff with 3000 grit if the surface feels a little rough
Oil
A quick buff with 3000 grit to finish.

[VikingCode]

The Ironbark board has been finished for 72 hours, so even though I said I would wait a week (and there is no mention of a "fully cured" time on the can), I thought i may as well have a go. If there is a fail point then i can just repeat from there in 4 days time.

This is probably my biggest gripe with hardwax oils - information. OSMO are particularly bad in it - each distributor around the world seems to run off a different set of instructions (US satin is different rest-of-the-world satin, 3054 vs 3032)
From the information I've gathered and some tests I've done in the past, depending on the temperature with PolyX you should wait 8-12 days before "use".

Similar to the off-gassing and crosslinking period for polyurethanes, HWOs seem to "transform" after 8-12 days (Fiddes seems to be 6-8 days) and they'll feel different (better) to touch and be far more resistant. I haven't actually tried it with alcohol, but haven't had issues with water, tea, sugary drinks after that time period. Within 2-4 days, it was prone to water rings if not careful.

[FenceFurniture]

Ok, so another test in a week's time (pretty cool here atm).

I just had another look at the 2 hour pool. Colour seems to be back to normal but it is definitely rough to touch. Just the overnite one to check tomorrow.

I was just watching Peter Parfitt testing another Osmo (satin?) and he did a 7 hour wine test almost straight away, with a perfect result. Beats me.

[cava]

Use it and weep at what you've previously missed George!
OK you've convinced me Brett.

Now where can I get some of this magical 4000 grit stuff (cheapish). :D

[FenceFurniture]

What did you sand up?

[cava]

1000

[FenceFurniture]

I mean what timber?

[FenceFurniture]

After the red wine had been on for 24 hours, there was a distinct mark that was quite rough, and upon immediate removal still felt damp. This time the Bluegum also had a slight stain and roughness.

I've brought the piece of Ironbark up to the house so it can cure for a week with a bit of warmth around it. It has dried out now and the visual mark has receded but can certainly still be seen. It is still quite rough to touch.

[cava]

I mean what timber?

Spotted gum and also a non-descript eucalyptus that I cut down a few years back.

[FenceFurniture]

I've brought the piece of Ironbark up to the house so it can cure for a week with a bit of warmth around it.Saturday marked about 12 days curing so I did the red wine test again, leaving it there for 24 hours.

The result was the same as previous - I can see in the grain holes that there are dark stains, and the grain has lifted up to be rough. I can only conclude that either a third coat is needed (probably not a good idea with translucent finishes), or that the claims of being "red wine proof" are somewhat exaggerated.

If a spillage occurs it would be best to wipe it up within the first 30 minutes. I have to think that the slight acidity of the wine eats at the surface a little which allows the stain to penetrate slightly to the wood. It may be that if the grain was filled before applying the PolyX Raw there might be a different result, but Ironbark is pretty tight grained timber.

[FenceFurniture]

Ironbark board with PolyX Raw, but no wine left on it:
437580


2-3 days after PolyX, and 24 hours of red wine:
437581

12-14 days after PolyX, and 24 hours of red wine:
437582



Now if they were floorboards, I wouldn't ve concerned at all, but if it was a table where it is much closer to the eye, and the roughness can be felt, that's different!


However, I'm not going to quit just yet on this $65 can of German technology. This arvo I flipped that board over, sanded it up to 320, did two coats of dilute shellac sanding sealer (which I did not use last time), sanded to 500, and applied a coat of PolyX, which I clothed down shortly after. I will add another 2 maybe even 3 thin coats (as they are after clothing down) and then repeat the wine test in a couple of weeks.

Also, on the right half of the new side, after the sanding sealer I filled the grain with slightly water diluted Timbermate.

[Enfield Guy]

After your finest grit are you wiping over with clean water to raise the grain, and then lightly resending with the finest grit you use?

[FenceFurniture]

Not for those tests. For the other side I have used a sanding sealer first to raise the grain, and rather than sanding with 240 in between I'm using 500. I will also be doing 3-4 thin coats. If that doesn't work then I might wipe it down with Armorall and see if that repels the fluids (it should - I think it's Silicone based).