Square Head Nails

[Chris Parks]

Mrs P has asked me to fix an old table that was imported to this country from NZ in the early 1900's. it has square head nails in it with heads like a conventional bullet head nail not a clout. I most probably only need a dozen at the most about 50mm long, apart from the dodgy, rusted offerings from Ebay with nearly all having flat heads does anyone know where I can get some in Australia.

[jmk89]

Chris

Any chance of a picture of the original nails? I'm not quite able to picture them from your description.

Cheers

Jeremy

[NCArcher]

Do they look like this Chris?
Mustad nails Australia (http://www.farriershop.com.au/mustad-nails/)

[Chris Parks]

Sort of, a couple of pictures for you but you can't see much except for hammer marks where the builder was either having a bad day or he just hated the table:D


430693 These are the biggest ones at the base and head of the two pedestals.

430694These are the size I am after

430695The stretcher that was here is missing


430696It was attached by nails through this skirt

430697Another picture of nails

430698One of the gap that has happened over the years between the support blocks and the pedestal and if I can't close it up by careful application of a big hammer and a block of wood I may have to break them and make new ones, hopefully saving the nails.

The nearest thing they resemble is a nail out of a nailing gun and it may come to that yet.

More photos for full disclosure..

430699430700430701

[jmk89]

Perhaps some of the nails from Goods and Chattels (https://www.goodsandchattels.com/Fasteners-Screws/Finishing-Nails/View-all-products.html?redirected=1) would suit

[Chris Parks]

Thanks Jeremy, they should do it.

[NCArcher]

I think you might have nailed it Jeremy :D

[Chris Parks]

Very Droll Tony, get back to work.:)

[aldav]

Could they possibly be horse shoe nails? They look like they have a tapered top.

[Robson Valley]

I doubt the horse nails.
In early Canada, they were sheet cut nails, very much the shapes of modern casing and finishing nails
with a relatively small but square-shouldered head.
I had some pop up out of a little bedside dresser. Never did anything with it.

[auscab]

does anyone know where I can get some in Australia.
I’ve never seen any new old stock except for the odd box on eBay or at auctions . Mainly screws though . What I do is make them when I need them . Just buy the right size and re head them . If it’s the round head Late Victorian or Edwardian type it shouldn’t be to hard at all. You just make a basic heading plate , which is just a hole in a steel plate for a short run. Re shape the heads using an anvil of some sort and the heading plate . I’ll see if I can find the nail type I think you have and try and show you . I had a few in my hands two days ago but they were all straightened and put back into the base of the Cedar chest of drawers I was working on . That sort of nail is a round wire or shank nail and the head is round but with four sloped sides like a roof . Sort of .

[Xanthorrhoeas]

These are called cut nails or dress nails. The only manufacturer that I know of is in the USA Welcome to Tremont Nail Company - Steel Cut Nails for Authentic Restoration Projects and Remodeling (http://www.tremontnail.com/)

If the Goods and Chattels ones aren't large enough and you only need a few I can probably find some for you. I had about 10 kg of these - original, unused 19th century cut nails about 1 inch long. However, the 2011 flood made a real mess of them so I only bothered to try to save a few with phosphoric acid for the rust. Because of that mine are grey/white.

[Chris Parks]

Thanks for the kind offer but they need to be about 50mm long.

[ian]

Hi Chris
are these sort of what you are looking for Square-Cut Nails - Lee Valley Tools (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=40387&cat=1,250,43298,41306,41324)
To save on postage, if you can wait till July, I can bring some back with me then.
alternatively, I could post a few now and bring the balance back in July.

[auscab]

No Guys! I'm disagreeing with these suggestions going by .

Its a Jacobean revival table . Built in NZ . If you compare to AU its somewhere between 1915 and 1935 . I'm rough on Jacobean revival dates for Victoria so I may be out a little . Clipped flat sided nails with rose or square heads were 50 years before this table . Three and four sided rose heads on round wire nails were from 1890 on roughly . Stamped cross hatched flat heads on round wire type shanks were from the 1920s on
" roughly ".
If Chris takes a nail out, It wont be a square or rectangular shank but a round wire . Id bet a lot on that . $22 roughly .

I wouldn't be paying and shipping Poor Victorian copies . Those things don't resemble real antique nails . Nail making didn't change much from Antiquity through until roughly 1780 on ,it was a hand and hammer operation. From around 1840 / 50 with new mechanisms it changed rapidly every ten or twenty years or so until the 1930s I think ? And none of them look exactly like those not hand made new options.

Here is a pair of original 1890s to 1915 nails on the right, one lying down the other standing . And on the left a pair of new bullet heads the same , The one standing, I re headed in a heading plate today . Using a flat square punch helped me out . Not perfect but with a bit of experimenting you could get there . Just showing what I think you should do Chris .

Rob

[Chris Parks]

Thanks for as all the offers of help I do appreciate it. I can't see any percentage in pulling a nail out due to the damage that would cause but I tend to agree with Rob that they are round and not cut nails. It is no master piece of antiquity so I might just finish what I can, I have to see Rob in a few weeks and I might grab a few nails from him then. I can finish it so all it needs is four nails putting in so a few weeks won't matter.

[auscab]

I have nails Chris . Plenty of the ones in the picture. I have a nail and screw collection some where .Originals taken from furniture repairs and wrecks . They date mainly from 1670 through to 1880 . Its small amounts of each for the study of them . Ive been trying to figure out how to display them for years .They were in the bottom of my bench for many years and I took them out six months ago and am yet to find what I did with them. I do have some jars and boxes with some types of old ones as well . I may be lucky and come across them within a week or two . I moved workshop and a lot of what I shifted is still in three 40 foot shipping containers , so there in one of them .

Rob

[auscab]

I found my Antique Nail and Screw collection today . Incredible where it turned up . Never thought of looking for it where I did end up looking and I just came across it by accident .
These are the ones I collected over 39 years of restoring, for mounting some how or displaying on boards ? Not sure .
There is some interesting details to study about hand forged Nails.
And the introduction of machinery to produce nails and screws after that.
I took some pictures of some of them for show and tell .

430998 430999

These below are some Ci 1900 round wire with stamped rose head I think they could be called . They must have been a machine stamping the heads by then I think ?

431004 431003

These little ones below came from a Cedar chest of drawers that was very early Tasmanian . Around 1810, they held the drawer guides to the runners. They were so primitive looking with there extra wide heads all slightly different from each other and so different from what I saw in typical English furniture chests from that date I though they may have been produced locally at the time the cabinet maker needed them ?
431005

These are around 1870 to 80 machine stamped shank off a sheet or punched through a die from sheet with the two head types you see ,the left two has the head made as part of the stamping from the sheet iron, the other three on the right second pic are stamped the same but the head is punched later . Probably by hand and hammer ? every head is different . The right picture has more stamped shank but probably a more even stamped head . Machine or hand held top former held and hit ? The far right nail almost out of the picture is from the roof of a St kilda home built in 1875.

431006 431007 431008

This below is hand hammered shank with hand formed head as seen in a lot of 1780s furniture around the base of late 18th C chest of drawers.
431009

These are Japanese taken from a Ci 1700 Mingi chest . I was told by the restorer who worked on the piece. The heads are flattened and then rolled back over the nail shank I think . Real different !

431010 431011

An interesting Screw with a octagonal shank ?
431012

And some typical pre 1840 cut screws. All have blunt ends and look hand worked ?

431013

There is a lot of 1840/ 50 nails in there that are pre mechanism and these whether 1750 or 1850 are pretty much the same . Hand hammered shank with a head hand formed in a heading plate. Its not until machinery gets involved that you see changes occur that mark out progression from there.

Plenty more nails and screws in there of different dates

Rob

[Jim sweeney]

gday mate go to your nearest saddlery and get a box of horse shoe bales they are drawn out square , a bit exy at $35 a box but it’s what the Japanese use for their little tool boxes , it’s good they still make the old stuff , if I could find some cheap at a garage sale I would buy the lot as they are secure being square and give a nice finished look left exposed , don’t you think.

[JayGee59]

CHRIS: We used to pull these out of an old barn across the road from where our house was and an old neighbor explained the process to us from when he was a kid "heading nails" in a HOME production process. SO, I tried to find you a video and here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-QnjN5TMWsk The nails are fairly easily made if you've ever had any experience at all in heating metals. Give it a try then you can really impress the owner you're doing the refurbishing for, plus, you might make a few extras and put them in a jar for use at shows and let tourists buy them for souvenirs. It might pay for your booth space.

[Old-Biker-UK]

Rob - Thanks for that, really interesting. I spent most of my working life as a museum conservator & came across plenty of 'old' nails & screws, should have started a collection!
We had a identification service in the museum, quite often people would bring in a blacksmith-made nail from their roof and ask us how old it was! I would explain that it could be any time from late Roman to a couple of weeks ago...

JayGee - that video just about nails it :U (sorry, I will get my coat)

mark

[Chris Parks]

Thanks for all the input, I was at Auscab's place the other day and he showed me how he resolved the issue with a bullet head and a linisher which will be good enough for this job. It was only a 2000km drive and I learned what to do first hand.

[Chris Parks]

I may as well continue the next question here. If you look at the above photos in the first post you can see that the stretcher between the two vertical pedestals at just above floor level has twice been joined by dowels to the pedestals and a better way needs to be used. I have filled the dowel holes in both the stretcher and the pedestals and my current thinking is a semi loose tenon to do the job properly. I can't see any viable way to do that by hand as the stretcher is too long to hold vertically and I am a short . I think if I used a Domino to insert loose tenons, glued one end of the tenon so the assembly can be pulled apart and fixed the unglued end from underneath with a screw which won't be seen is a possible method. Anyone have any alternative ideas?

[auscab]

Domino would be good Chris. Not sure what you mean by gluing one end or fixing with a screw . Id just take a column off the table top and domino , even home made wider domino's or standard ones in a few places. And glue it back together with a clamp pulling the two bases back together as the column that was taken off is re affixed. I'd use two pack glue if possible . Or Titebond . Or Hide glue if you want and its tight joinery, and your real quick at assembly .
Rob

[Chris Parks]

Rob, what I was thinking was to glue one end of the tenon in the pedestal and assemble the whole lot then put a screw from underneath the stretcher into the tenon so it can't be seen. This would mean the assembly would be prevented from pulling apart but it could be pulled apart by removing the screw.

BTW I found a corner block from that cabinet in my car, let me know if you want it.

[ian]

Hi Chris
I'm not sure that I endorse the idea of using a screw to secure one end of a loose tenon (with the other end glued in place.)
I understand your reticence to replace dowels with dowels, but I don't really think that a screw will be suitable.

As Rob suggests glue and a clamp, and if you really need "braces", perhaps add a peg to create a pegged mortice and tenon

[auscab]

Yeah like Ian says Chris . A screw is not so good down there . They wiggle and jiggle and make things worse in time . Down there should be all glued up tight and the two 45 degree braces glued and nailed back in place under the top . Glue them in and let the glue set then add nails or screws . What ever was there before . Trying to secure them as glue is drying can move a good joint and it ends up being out . Sometimes in gluing stuff like this up an x brace made of two sticks can be nailed on where ever it works . That holds it all square . When every thing is on and dry it comes off and the nail holes puttied up coloured and polished away .

The glue block . Text me a pic of that or email please.

Rob

[peterp]

I will try to add a photo of some nails I have that my son collected from an Adelaide farmhouse built about 1870. I only have a few but if you want any let me know.432328

[Chris Parks]

Peter, thanks for the kind offer but I have worked out the supply problem, Rob (Auscab) showed me a trick with a linisher to modify bullet head nails which will do the job nicely.