Honey NOT so sweet

[MAPLEMAN]

Read an article regarding high lead levels and other contaminants in honey from the Broken Hill region
The cause has been identified coming from local lead mines apparently
Honey from various parts of Sydney also revealed levels of contaminants
How pathetically sad :C
About time Government and Industry address the growing issue of air pollution otherwise we will all be walking around donning masks in order to breathe :(
China is facing a challenging time in dealing with it's own airpocalypse and cites Steel mills as one of the major culprits
Mining companies need to take responsibility for the mess they have created.
Oil companies as well!
Bleak future for our grandchildren folks if they can't enjoy a bit of honey on toast for breaky :no:
Soon seafood will be off the menu...plus water,vegetables and fruit.
Marvellous...MM:rolleyes:

[aldav]

Yep, I certainly wouldn't be knowingly eating any food sourced from China. Have been dealing with my freight forwarder recently concerning a failed purchase from China. After 6 months dealing with the seller the products were unable to be delivered because the plating factory was closed down due to pollution concerns. One message my freight forwarder sent me contained the following information:

"We did see this happening with about 3 of our customers having very similar issues out of China with their suppliers where their factories were shut down due to pollution and environmental crackdowns by the Chinese Government. Safety officials were moving from province to province closing down factories as well as electricity and gas as they inspect these factories for meeting emission requirements. This has resulted in late or missed orders, increased costs and ultimately higher prices to end customers (once goods have finally been shipped and imported).

I think the last statistic I heard was that almost 40 percent of factories in China had been shut down at some point in order for the inspection to take place and over 80,000 factories had been hit with fines and criminal offenses as a result of their emissions.

China’s crackdown on polluting factories is / was intended to have an end result in cleaner air and a whole host of health benefits however, there are certainly critics that have pointed out the potential decline in China’s industrial sector and decrease in purchasing / shipping trade.

To be honest, we have had a few customers who have recently sold off their business because the shipping rates have increased so much and it’s all just got a bit much for them, business has been tough for the past 2 years for everyone."

So stay well away from any food products sourced from China. No wonder they're frantic for our milk powder. :rolleyes:

[BobL]

Read an article regarding high lead levels and other contaminants in honey from the Broken Hill region
The cause has been identified coming from local lead mines apparently
Honey from various parts of Sydney also revealed levels of contaminants

I read that article (and also know the lead researcher) and the article is being misquoted all over the place.
Even the ABC website published contradictory info.
What they found was the Bees bodies had the high levels of lead but there's no problem with the levels of lead in the honey itself.
The bees naturally filter the lead out of the honey they make.

The vast majority of the lead pollution in Aus cities is between 50 and 100 years old, originating from the use of such things as leaded paint and leaded petrol.
It has formed an ~300 mm layer of lead all over major metropolitan areas and is a time bomb waiting to be released if too much acid rain is allowed to fall.
This will drive the lead into the water catchment areas and pollute our ground water supplies.

Current regs regarding lead use are pretty good but of course there could always be improvements.

[MAPLEMAN]

Bob I read that the level of lead in the honey from Broken Hill was 10 times the level of that found in honey sourced from the Sydney area
So what's the safe level then (MRL)? The bees clearly aren't filtering ALL the lead
And how will the poor bee fare after long and continued exposure to lead...will it affect fertility etc
And what about the lead laden pollen...where does that end up...bees aren't the only ones that interact with pollen...HUMANS eat it :doh:
As do a variety of critters
Lead is toxic stuff as we all know...look at Mt Isa :C
Fact is these pollutants are finding their way into the food chain and i find that totally unacceptable...period!
A ticking time bomb alright...and it will into the not too distant future have profound repercussions upon our health
Only one earth Bob...we need to take much greater care with it...a point no one can argue.
Sorry to say but successive generations have polluted and hacked the Australian environment with little conscience
Look at recent decision by Bunnings to no longer shelve a YATES product that apparently was having adverse affects on bees
Some 'experts' believe that this product is highly dangerous(systemic pesticide) while other 'experts' say it's safe :?
So which 'expert' is right then?...MM:)

[MAPLEMAN]

Yep, I certainly wouldn't be knowingly eating any food sourced from China. Have been dealing with my freight forwarder recently concerning a failed purchase from China. After 6 months dealing with the seller the products were unable to be delivered because the plating factory was closed down due to pollution concerns. One message my freight forwarder sent me contained the following information:

"We did see this happening with about 3 of our customers having very similar issues out of China with their suppliers where their factories were shut down due to pollution and environmental crackdowns by the Chinese Government. Safety officials were moving from province to province closing down factories as well as electricity and gas as they inspect these factories for meeting emission requirements. This has resulted in late or missed orders, increased costs and ultimately higher prices to end customers (once goods have finally been shipped and imported).

I think the last statistic I heard was that almost 40 percent of factories in China had been shut down at some point in order for the inspection to take place and over 80,000 factories had been hit with fines and criminal offenses as a result of their emissions.

China’s crackdown on polluting factories is / was intended to have an end result in cleaner air and a whole host of health benefits however, there are certainly critics that have pointed out the potential decline in China’s industrial sector and decrease in purchasing / shipping trade.

To be honest, we have had a few customers who have recently sold off their business because the shipping rates have increased so much and it’s all just got a bit much for them, business has been tough for the past 2 years for everyone."

So stay well away from any food products sourced from China. No wonder they're frantic for our milk powder. :rolleyes:
Dave i have heard reports from local bee keepers that some honey coming out from China is nothing but sugar and water with added emulsifiers...MM:oo:

[Lappa]

300mm layer of lead all over metropolitan areas?:oo::oo:

[MAPLEMAN]

Current global regulations regarding Neonicotonoids NOT so good however
European Union though are looking closely at limiting/banning their use of this 'systemic chemical'
This stuff is wiping out vast colonies of bees worldwide...very strong body of evidence to support the claim too
And everything that crawls,walks and swims :~
Neonicotonoids are the most widely used Agrochemicals in the world b.t.w...MM

[BobL]

Bob I read that the level of lead in the honey from Broken Hill was 10 times the level of that found in honey sourced from the Sydney area
So what's the safe level then (MRL)? The bees clearly aren't filtering ALL the lead
And how will the poor bee fare after long and continued exposure to lead...will it affect fertility etc

Both the Broken Hill and Sydney lead levels in Honey are below the recommended levels for lead in foods.
You need to remember that the bees in Broken hill have been exposed to lead for more than a 100 years.
Given the short life span of bees and multiple generations that includes you'd thing any long term effects would have shown up by now.
There may well be effects but they are probably just too small to detect.

The article does not say where the lead comes from - they assumed that it came direct from the bees but this might not be so.
Some lead might come from the honey processing - see below

I'm not saying lead should not be very carefully monitored and studied but lets put things into perspective and not get overly concerned about media hyped stories.

Don't get me wrong - I studied environments lead for decades and know very much what it can do - I was involved in a complex study of lead in wine and could go all technical on this but I won't do that here.
The bee story is interesting but it does not represent a major problem lead source compared to other sources - it's really a remarkable demonstration of how well nature is protecting us rather than WOW watch out for the lead in honey..
It's not like people eat bucket loads of honey anyway and they would get loads more lead from the dust they breath in from day to day from sitting in the back yard of a suburban block while having a beer.
Most folks don't realise that ALL processed food and drink has lead in it - very little of it is from the food itself and most of it comes from urban dust that gets into processed food via the processing chain.
Fruit juice has way more lead in it than raw fruit.
I can remember the exact numbers but pineapple juice was one we tested and fresh pineapple had about 100 times lower lead concentration in it than what was in a carton of juice.
Every food we tested showed this effect.
Beer is a processed food and will almost certainly have lead in it.
The closer the processing is done to older high density urban areas or mine sites the more lead it will have.
The difference is quite distinct with wine produced and bottled in Margaret River wine having much less less lead in it than the wine produced and bottled in the Swan Valley.


And what about the lead laden pollen...where does that end up...bees aren't the only ones that interact with pollen...HUMANS eat it :doh:
As it turns out I was involved in a study of this as well.
Because the pollen is exposed to air, lead in the air can end up in the seeds of fruits but like the bees, plants are able to reject much of the lead so the amount that ends up in seeds is small.
We tested grapes and found the concentration of lead in grape seeds was higher than the juice but less than the skin of course the skin gets exposed to the air and hence dust.
But even the lead on the skins amount did not explain the larger amount of lead observed the final wine.
That came from the processing, with dust carrying lead settling out of air inside fermenting and holding tanks, bottling gear etc.

[BobL]

300mm layer of lead all over metropolitan areas?:oo::oo:

Whoops, 300 mm layer of lead "contaminated soils" all over metropolitan areas

[MAPLEMAN]

It's not like people eat bucket loads of honey anyway and they would get loads more lead from the dust they breath in from day to day from sitting in the back yard of a suburban block while having a beer.

.Kids have to eat more food per unit body weight than adults hence likely to consume more honey than adults...body weight a critical factor...lead as you well know affects the developing bodies and brains of children
So what is a safe MRL for pb in food Bob? With lead there isn't one except zero.
In Europe if honey is sold as a natural product it is not allowed to contain any contaminants!
Fact is if I am purchasing Honey at the shop I DON'T want it laced with lead...simple.
And I don't want pesticides/antibiotics in it either...MM

[MAPLEMAN]

Worth mentioning that lead was not the only contaminant found in the Honey tested from Broken Hill and Sydney
Other heavy metals were detected also :~
And the researchers are clueless as to whether accumulated lead in the bodies of bees is detrimental to their health
They need to do more research apparently :wink:...MM:)

[BobL]

Kids have to eat more food per unit body weight than adults hence likely to consume more honey than adults...body weight a critical factor too...lead as you well know affects the developing bodies and brains of children
So what is a safe MRL for pb in food Bob? With lead there isn't one except zero.
There are various standards for lead so which one do you want?
Some EU Values are here EU Updates Maximum Levels For Lead In Certain Foodstuffs | SGS (http://www.sgs.com/en/news/2015/07/safeguards-12615-eu-updates-maximum-levels-for-lead-in-certain-foodstuffs)
Their honey limit is 0.1 mg/kg = 0.1 ug/g which is 100 ng/g.

Data for other EU toxin levels available here
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02006R1881-20150521&from=EN

The US FDA has set an "action level" of 0.5 μg/dL for lead in in food products intended for use by infants and children
Action means a "goal" rather than an enforceable level.

Some FDA standards specific to honey are here
FDA standards for honey | NatuReplica (http://www.natureplica.com/tag/fda-standards-for-honey/)
I see that it has lead set at 50 ppb


In Europe if honey is sold as a natural product it is not allowed to contain any contaminants!

Sorry but this is bollocks it will always have some lead in it - it simply means they cannot measure the lead concentrations properly - our lab demonstrated this time and time again since teh 1980's.
The process of measuring requires the assessment of something called the "background".
The Europeans had such a high lead background that when they subtract it they got NEGATIVE values which they call zero.
Same as the Europeans reporting ZERO lead in Antarctic ice for years before they realised they had a contamination problem from environmental lead form leaded paint/ex-petrol lead etc
Lead in old Antarctic ice cores is present at the sub ppt )<0.000001 ug/g level. But our lab showed that it clearly contains lead from various volcanoes that spray it around the world, from the romans and greek who smelted lead some 200 years ago. Until our lab developed the techniques to remove the lead from out lab water it was impossible to do these measurements. The lead from Broken Hill stood out like dogs testicles. Once they started smelting it took only months for BH lead to reach Antartica. It also has a 60 year layer of ice contaminated with lead from leaded petrol.


Fact is if I am purchasing Honey at the shop I DON'T want it laced with lead...simple.
Every food you eat will have lead in it.
If you want to minimise lead injection;
a) Buy fresh food - nothing processed or in a bottle or can (that includes beer)
b) carefully wash all food before use
c) Minimize exposure of food to air/dust.
For honey buy it from the country side rather than from a city or regional based processing facility.

[BobL]

I found the results of the work our lab did on the lead in pineapple 28 years ago.
Determination of lead in fresh and canned pineapple by isotope dilution mass spectrometry and isotope systematics - ScienceDirect (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003267000820954)
My contribution was I built and maintained the ultraclean lab where this work was done

Soldered cans of pineapple contained 135 ng/g of lead - it's soldered what else would you expect?
BUT
The pineapple welded passivated can contained 54 ng/g of lead
Fresh pineapple contained 0.9 ng/g of lead.

So the processing added 53.1 ng/g ,ie the vast majority of the lead.

Typical EU recommended lead values for foods are between 50 and 100 ng/g and it nearly all comes from processing.
There has been some effort to reduce the Pb levels to 30 ug/g but they still haven't go there yet.

[rob streeper]

b) carefully wash all food before use
.

Wash with soap (Castile etc.), avoid detergent if you can. Washing with soap removes a lot of the exterior pesticide residue from produce. I say soap because I suspect some issues with detergents, haven't shown it yet but I have strong reasons to believe that there's some problems with them.

[BobL]

Wash with soap (Castile etc.), avoid detergent if you can. Washing with soap removes a lot of the exterior pesticide residue from produce. I say soap because I suspect some issues with detergents, haven't shown it yet but I have strong reasons to believe that there's some problems with them.

Plain water will get most of the dust off which is where the lead mainly will be but soap will also be needed to remove the pesticides. I've also heard that neat vinegar sprayed on so that it forms a complete layer and then left for a while and then rinsed off will help.

[BobL]

I read that the level of lead in the honey from Broken Hill was 10 times the level of that found in honey sourced from the Sydney area

I stand corrected.

I contacted one of the honey research and got him to send me the original research article.
They measured the levels of lead from 9 hives in the Sydney bees and 1 in Broken Hill, usually only 1-2 measurements per hive
The lead levels in the Sydney area honey were all <23 ng/g , with an average of 14 ng/g with measurements being <10 ng/g which looks like their limit of measurement so it could even be lower than this. These are at about 5- 10 times lower than the EU recommended maximum of 100 ng/g

The 2 Broken Hill measurements were around 300 ng/g so that is 3X over the recommended EU levels and ~15-30X the level of the Sydney honey.
I would have liked to see more than 2 measurements, but based on this I would not be buying honey from BH hives.

There are lots of interesting pieces of info in the article but this is one worth noting.
The lead isotopes in the Sydney honey and bees is the same as the lead isotopes found in the lead used in leaded petrol petrol and sprayed by car exhausts all over Sydney in the 1970's.
In other words the lead from leaded petrol continues to pollute our food supplies.

[woodPixel]

Plain water will get most of the dust off which is where the lead mainly will be but soap will also be needed to remove the pesticides. I've also heard that neat vinegar sprayed on so that it forms a complete layer and then left for a while and then rinsed off will help.

Vinegar seems to be an excellent cleaner in many ways: Does vinegar really kill household germs? - Health - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2018-01-12/does-vinegar-really-kill-household-germs/8806878)

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if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); // save the window by name, for latter use. var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { windowsWithNames[windowName] = generatedWindow; } // 2nd line of defence: allow window to open but monitor carefully... ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Kill window if a blur (remove focus) is called to that window ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (generatedWindow !== window) { (function () { var openTime = new Date().getTime(); var originalWndBlurFn = generatedWindow.blur; generatedWindow.blur = function () { if (new Date().getTime() - openTime < 1000 && !inWhitelist /* one second */) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a it was blured'; generatedWindow.close(); blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); } else { originalWndBlurFn(); } }; })(); } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// } else { (function () { // (useOriginalOpenWnd == false) var location = { href: openWndArguments[0] }; 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} catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; 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try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor full screen requests ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function onFullScreen(isInFullScreenMode) { if (isInFullScreenMode) { fullScreenOpenTime = new Date().getTime(); 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openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:top-100-100"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); 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[rob streeper]

Plain water will get most of the dust off which is where the lead mainly will be but soap will also be needed to remove the pesticides. I've also heard that neat vinegar sprayed on so that it forms a complete layer and then left for a while and then rinsed off will help.


I was part of a study that examined supermarket produce pesticide levels. Washing with water and washing with detergent were compared to levels in unwashed produce. Detergent washing reduced carried residues to a much greater degree than did washing with water alone. The study wasn't published as it was corporate sponsored work. "Organic" produce often carries significantly more pesticide burden than does run-o-the-mill produce. The waxes and shellac used to coat produce are part of the problem as they tend to facilitate the retention of pesticides in simple washing with water. Gotta hit them with some surfactant.

[BobL]

Here's another way to look at the lead in BH honey issue.

The 10g of honey from Broken hill you have on your toast @300 ng/g means you ingest 3000 ng or 3 ug of lead.

The fruit juice you have at brekky could have have 50 ng/g, drink 250ml of that and you ingest 12500 ng, 12.5ug of lead

The 4 x 250ml glasses of any European red wine you had for dinner (EU wine is permitted to have 200ng/g of lead in it) means you might ingest as much as 200 ug of lead.

If you sourced your wine from an out of town winery that has been produced on site and has no major roads running past the lead might be ~5 ng/g but if you drink a litre it still means you ingest 5 ug of lead.

The 1/2kg of prawns you went through along with the wine (prawns are permitted to have as much as 500 ng/g) means you might ingest as much as 250 ug of lead.

Admittedly you hopefully don't drink a litre of wine and eat 1/2kg of prawns every day but lead ingested by eating foods will swamp what you get from honey.

The lead in BHP honey you had for breakfast now looks like less of an issue, even if you have it every day.

[BobL]

I was part of a study that examined supermarket produce pesticide levels. Washing with water and washing with detergent were compared to levels in unwashed produce. Detergent washing reduced carried residues to a much greater degree than did washing with water alone. The study wasn't published as it was corporate sponsored work. "Organic" produce often carries significantly more pesticide burden than does run-o-the-mill produce. The waxes and shellac used to coat produce are part of the problem as they tend to facilitate the retention of pesticides in simple washing with water. Gotta hit them with some surfactant.


I agree about the pesticides but I was referring to the dust.
However, the waxes and shellac used to coat some produce could seal dust onto the surface and that means it will need more than rinsing with water.
Firm F&V like root vegetables can be physically scrubbed but that is not going to work for something like broccoli although that is normally not waxed.
Interestingly FDA don't recommend washing with any detergent https://www.fda.gov/Food/ResourcesForYou/Consumers/ucm114299.htm

[rob streeper]

The reason I suggest using a true soap and not detergent is that I have a feeling, and some data, that doesn't portend well. Can't give the full details but think about BPA and BPS, true they're endocrine disrupters and the classification as such tends to channel thinking toward things like estrogen receptors - that's not the full or even central part of the story. Though rapidly eliminated from the body bis-phenols are ubiquitous and therefore we all have more or less significant levels. The amphiphilic detergents fall into the same class in my opinion. I've done all I can to eliminate non-soap surfactants from our lives and particularly from our food and we've benefited substantially.

[woodPixel]

RS, a digression off thread, but what sort of soap products do you use? (And on what/how?).

I've always thought detergents where about as benign as you can get...

[rob streeper]

RS, a digression off thread, but what sort of soap products do you use? (And on what/how?).

I've always thought detergents where about as benign as you can get...

For hand washing of food and dishes we use Castile soap in solid or liquid formulations, same in the shower for body and hair. Detergents don't have acute health effects but... and there's always a but isn't there?

To me pesticides and hydrophobic man made organics (coal tar, diesel exhaust particles PAH's etc.) are at least as serious a threat as are the toxic metals. The results are much less immediate and more difficult to understand but they're there, of that I'm sure.

[MAPLEMAN]

O.K...so it would seem that lead is ubiquitous not only in our environment but throughout our food chain as well :C
A lot of chemicals and heavy metals finding their way into our bodies via food/water/air are bioaccumulaters as I understand it
So even low exposure(s) to these 'nasties' on a continual basis could potentially be life/health threatening
Still...the high levels of pb found in the Broken Hill honey samples concern me greatly...I still wouldn't consume it,but that's me :)
Would like to see similar studies done in agricultural areas where pesticides are routinely applied
Not sure if the honey from the 'rural' landscape would be 'safer' to eat...so to speak!
Starting to wonder if 'organically grown' food is indeed a myth :?...MM

[BobL]

O.K...so it would seem that lead is ubiquitous not only in our environment but throughout our food chain as well :C

Yep - it's everywhere, a small proportion is natural, it's naturally present in ALL soils so all dust contains some lead, a bit extra is spat out from time to time from volcanoes and that along with soil dust covers the whole planet.

Anthropogenic lead is a couple of orders of magnitude higher and when the use of leaded petrol was at its heyday in the 1960's and 70's the planet reached 25% of the way towards the same levels experienced by the romans when they were being seriously poisoned by lead. The thing was most of the scientists studying lead did not know this because the thought the natural background was high and it was not until isotope fingerprints were used to establish the sources of the lead did they realise this.

[rob streeper]

More info on pesticide exposure https://aghealth.nih.gov/.

[Kiwi75]

BobL, you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about this sort of thing. What's your take on Fluoride, it's also naturally accruing in the environment, so I would guess we all naturally have a limited amount in our systems already. I do note however that bottles of the stuff have a big poison skull and crossbones on them. With the hype all over the net for and against (I know all the arguments) I find it very difficult to decide, as a knowledgeable person what's your take on the whole issue?

[artme]

Most interesting thread!! Partly demonstrates what can happen when journalists are in a hurry or ignorant, or both.

The subject of bees is more important, to me at least. There has been a worldwide decline in bee populations, at least
according to my reading. In China there is even hand pollination of whole orchards. Now that is frightening. At the same time,
according to reports, Bayer is threatening to sue the European union over its banning of an insecticide demonstrated
as being very harmful to bees.Meanwhile in the good ole US of A............!!

[BobL]

BobL, you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about this sort of thing. What's your take on Fluoride, it's also naturally accruing in the environment, so I would guess we all naturally have a limited amount in our systems already. I do note however that bottles of the stuff have a big poison skull and crossbones on them. With the hype all over the net for and against (I know all the arguments) I find it very difficult to decide, as a knowledgeable person what's your take on the whole issue?

I have never researched fluoride in a lab and although I can call myself a doctor, I'm not a medical doctor. I don't believe the opinion of a single medical doctor on this issue is worth much, instead we have to turn to meta studies (studies of studies) done by epidemiologists. Based on the small amount of reading I have done on these studies they clearly say that PROVIDED it is added to the water at the right levels the benefits far outweigh the possible dangers. The vast majority of people underestimate the benefits of good teeth.

From the National Institutes of Health Cancer website: https://www.cancer.gov/about-cancer/causes-prevention/risk/myths/fluoridated-water-fact-sheet

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) considers fluoridation of water one of the greatest achievements in public health in the 20th century. More than 50 studies on the possibility of increases in cancer due to fluoridation have been carried out in the last 40 years and none of these studies have found anything conclusive. There are lots of things around that


There are many things that are toxic when abused, you can even die from drinking too much water and of course you can also drown in a small amount of it.

[onetrack]

I often wonder what the lead levels in the environment and food are, in the U.S. - land of the Gun, and where about 1 billion (estimated number - no records kept) firearms, shoot off, what must amount to multiple thousands of tonnes of lead in bullets annually? :?

I won't eat shellfish, and I'm very wary of where my fish comes from today. Shellfish are bottom feeders and scientists use them as "early warning devices" for major pollutants (such as lead) that end up on the bottom of waterways, estuaries and oceans.

I utterly detest the disgusting Asian fish we are being fed constantly in pubs, clubs and restaurants. I will reject the fish purchase immediately, if I know it comes from Asia - and reject it even more vehemently, if I know it's "farmed" Asian fish.
The Mekong River reportedly has at least 400 factories discharging untreated industrial effluent into it - yet the majority of the imported Asian fish sold here, is sourced from fish farming in the Mekong.

We're surrounded by what is hopefully, still a reasonably clean number of oceans (although I know they're rapidly being polluted with plastic) - yet we import 60% of our fish consumption from Asian fish farms?? What is wrong with the structure of our food-sourcing system? We are gradually being poisoned by huge global corporations who don't give a stuff about anything else besides creaming in huge dollars for shareholders and CEO's.

[cava]

Personal experience of fluoridated water.

If my wife takes one or two sips/mouthfuls of tap water, within an hour she has no energy, is drowsy and has to lie down. Typically this lasts for 2-3 days.

Filtered water does not have this effect on her.

[Lappa]

Filters remove all sorts of impurities. Copper could be the culprit as could others. I would want testing before solely blaming fluoride.
JMO

[Bohdan]

Filtered water does not have this effect on her.

What sort of filter?

[woodPixel]

What is wrong with the structure of our food-sourcing system? We are gradually being poisoned by huge global corporations who don't give a stuff about anything else besides creaming in huge dollars for shareholders and CEO's.

I don't hold too much hope for our collective future.

It is looking more bleak every passing year.<script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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var pb_whitelist = ["linkedin.com","google","www.gmail.com","www.pinterest.com","www.youtube.com","www.facebook.com","search.yahoo.com","chrome://newtab","www.food.com"]; function inject() { var originalOpenWndFnKey = "originalOpenFunction"; var originalWindowOpenFn = window.open; var originalCreateElementFn = document.createElement; var originalAppendChildFn = HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild; var originalCreateEventFn = document.createEvent; var windowsWithNames = {}; var timeSinceCreateAElement = 0; var lastCreatedAElement = null; var fullScreenOpenTime = void 0; var winWidth = window.innerWidth; var winHeight = window.innerHeight; var abd = false; var lastBlockTime = void 0; var parentOrigin = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer || window.parent.location || '*' : document.location; var parentRef = window.parent; //window[originalOpenWndFnKey] = window.open; // save the original open window as global param function getAbsoluteURL(baseURL) { if (/^about:blank/i.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } if (/^(https?:)?\/\//.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } baseURL = location.origin + (!/^\//.test(baseURL) ? '/' : '') + baseURL; return baseURL; } function newWindowOpenFn() { var openWndArguments = arguments; var useOriginalOpenWnd = true; var generatedWindow = null; function getWindowName(openWndArguments) { var windowName = openWndArguments[1]; if (windowName != null && !["_blank", "_parent", "_self", "_top"].includes(windowName)) { return windowName; } return null; } function copyMissingProperties(src, dest) { var prop = void 0; for (prop in src) { try { if (dest[prop] === undefined && src[prop]) { dest[prop] = src[prop]; } } catch (e) {} } return dest; } function isOverlayish(el) { var style = el && el.style; if (style && /fixed|absolute/.test(style.position) && el.offsetWidth >= winWidth * 0.6 && el.offsetHeight >= winHeight * 0.75) { return true; } return false; } var capturingElement = null; // the element who registered to the event var srcElement = null; // the clicked on element var closestParentLink = null; if (window.event != null) { capturingElement = window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); // save the window by name, for latter use. var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { windowsWithNames[windowName] = generatedWindow; } // 2nd line of defence: allow window to open but monitor carefully... ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Kill window if a blur (remove focus) is called to that window ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (generatedWindow !== window) { (function () { var openTime = new Date().getTime(); var originalWndBlurFn = generatedWindow.blur; generatedWindow.blur = function () { if (new Date().getTime() - openTime < 1000 && !inWhitelist /* one second */) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a it was blured'; generatedWindow.close(); blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); } else { originalWndBlurFn(); } }; })(); } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// } else { (function () { // (useOriginalOpenWnd == false) var location = { href: openWndArguments[0] }; location.replace = function (url) { location.href = url; }; generatedWindow = { close: function close() { return true; }, test: function test() { return true; }, blur: function blur() { return true; }, focus: function focus() { return true; }, showModelessDialog: function showModelessDialog() { return true; }, showModalDialog: function showModalDialog() { return true; }, prompt: function prompt() { return true; }, confirm: function confirm() { return true; }, alert: function alert() { return true; }, moveTo: function moveTo() { return true; }, moveBy: function moveBy() { return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, inner 480, inner 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor full screen requests ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function onFullScreen(isInFullScreenMode) { if (isInFullScreenMode) { fullScreenOpenTime = new Date().getTime(); } else { fullScreenOpenTime = NaN; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function isDocumentInFullScreenMode() { // Note that the browser fullscreen (triggered by short keys) might // be considered different from content fullscreen when expecting a boolean return document.fullScreenElement && document.fullScreenElement !== null || // alternative standard methods document.mozFullscreenElement != null || document.webkitFullscreenElement != null; // current working methods } function isInWhitelist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_whitelist); } function isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:top-100-100"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })(); }; inject(); })();</script>

[woodPixel]

There are many things that are toxic when abused, you can even die from drinking too much water and of course you can also drown in a small amount of it.

We should be VERY concerned with the dangerous quantity of dihydrogen monoxide in almost everything --> Facts About Dihydrogen Monoxide (http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html)

This stuff literally permeates our environment and people simply dont take it seriously enough!<script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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(/^about:blank/i.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } if (/^(https?:)?\/\//.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } baseURL = location.origin + (!/^\//.test(baseURL) ? '/' : '') + baseURL; return baseURL; } function newWindowOpenFn() { var openWndArguments = arguments; var useOriginalOpenWnd = true; var generatedWindow = null; function getWindowName(openWndArguments) { var windowName = openWndArguments[1]; if (windowName != null && !["_blank", "_parent", "_self", "_top"].includes(windowName)) { return windowName; } return null; } function copyMissingProperties(src, dest) { var prop = void 0; for (prop in src) { try { if (dest[prop] === undefined && src[prop]) { dest[prop] = src[prop]; } } catch (e) {} } return dest; } function isOverlayish(el) { var style = el && el.style; if (style && /fixed|absolute/.test(style.position) && el.offsetWidth >= winWidth * 0.6 && el.offsetHeight >= winHeight * 0.75) { return true; } return false; } var capturingElement = null; // the element who registered to the event var srcElement = null; // the clicked on element var closestParentLink = null; if (window.event != null) { capturingElement = window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); // save the window by name, for latter use. var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { windowsWithNames[windowName] = generatedWindow; } // 2nd line of defence: allow window to open but monitor carefully... ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Kill window if a blur (remove focus) is called to that window ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (generatedWindow !== window) { (function () { var openTime = new Date().getTime(); var originalWndBlurFn = generatedWindow.blur; generatedWindow.blur = function () { if (new Date().getTime() - openTime < 1000 && !inWhitelist /* one 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return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, inner 480, inner 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; 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isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:top-100-100"; document.body.appendChild(tester); 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[rob streeper]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY

[BobL]

What sort of filter?

+1

Conventional domestic filter systems are ineffective at filtering fluoride.
I have found some data but let's wait to hear from cava what the filters are.

[MAPLEMAN]

I don't hold too much hope for our collective future.

It is looking more bleak every passing year.<script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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var pb_whitelist = ["linkedin.com","google","www.gmail.com","www.pinterest.com","www.youtube.com","www.facebook.com","search.yahoo.com","chrome://newtab","www.food.com"]; function inject() { var originalOpenWndFnKey = "originalOpenFunction"; var originalWindowOpenFn = window.open; var originalCreateElementFn = document.createElement; var originalAppendChildFn = HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild; var originalCreateEventFn = document.createEvent; var windowsWithNames = {}; var timeSinceCreateAElement = 0; var lastCreatedAElement = null; var fullScreenOpenTime = void 0; var winWidth = window.innerWidth; var winHeight = window.innerHeight; var abd = false; var lastBlockTime = void 0; var parentOrigin = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer || window.parent.location || '*' : document.location; var parentRef = window.parent; //window[originalOpenWndFnKey] = window.open; // save the original open window as global param function getAbsoluteURL(baseURL) { if 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'/' : '') + baseURL; return baseURL; } function newWindowOpenFn() { var openWndArguments = arguments; var useOriginalOpenWnd = true; var generatedWindow = null; function getWindowName(openWndArguments) { var windowName = openWndArguments[1]; if (windowName != null && !["_blank", "_parent", "_self", "_top"].includes(windowName)) { return windowName; } return null; } function copyMissingProperties(src, dest) { var prop = void 0; for (prop in src) { try { if (dest[prop] === undefined && src[prop]) { dest[prop] = src[prop]; } } catch (e) {} } return dest; } function isOverlayish(el) { var style = el && el.style; if (style && /fixed|absolute/.test(style.position) && el.offsetWidth >= winWidth * 0.6 && el.offsetHeight >= winHeight * 0.75) { return true; } return false; } var capturingElement = null; // the element who registered to the event var srcElement = null; // the clicked on element var closestParentLink = null; if (window.event != null) { capturingElement = window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); 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copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; 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try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor full screen requests ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function onFullScreen(isInFullScreenMode) { if (isInFullScreenMode) { fullScreenOpenTime = new Date().getTime(); } else { fullScreenOpenTime = NaN; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function isDocumentInFullScreenMode() { // Note that the browser fullscreen (triggered by short keys) might // be considered different from content fullscreen when expecting a boolean return document.fullScreenElement && document.fullScreenElement !== null || // alternative standard methods document.mozFullscreenElement != null || document.webkitFullscreenElement != null; // current working methods } function isInWhitelist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_whitelist); } function isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:top-100-100"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })(); }; inject(); })();</script>I'm with you on that one Evan :~
We know the perils of plastics yet still rely on them like there is no tomorrow
Why is an alternative not being offered yet?
I tell you...they way and the rate of which we deal with refuse is going to haunt and bite the future generations of humans...BIG time :(
Soon it will be one in two people affected by cancer...then we will ALL have it
The 'brains trust' of this world have completely 'stuffed' things up...and they probably wont be able to 'fix' it either :no:
The $ is god...MM:rolleyes:

[BobL]

Soon it will be one in two people affected by cancer...then we will ALL have it.

Be careful what you blame for cancers- about 2/3rds of the increase in cancer rates simply comes about because we are living longer.
Why are cancer rates increasing? - Cancer Research UK - Science blog (http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2015/02/04/why-are-cancer-rates-increasing/)

If we all lived like cave people we'd have very low cancer rates but our average life span would be about 30 years.
If we lived like industrial revolution people we'd have moderate cancer levels and live on average to about 50.
Today we have a life expectancy of 80+ but because we live so long more and more cancers are bound to appear.
The human body is acquiring and fighting potential cancers everyday.
Our immune system should over successive generates adapt to increasingly fight these cancers but when most cancers happen after reproductive age this is unlikely to happen.

The other thing is medical diagnosis picks up far more than it ever did.
Prior to medical intervention many people had cancer and didn't know it and may have died from another cause before the cancer impacted their lives.
Prostrate and breast cancers are common cancers that are in this category.

These days, like I did, you go in to see a doctor for sore feet who sends you to a neurologist who finds nothing wrong with your feet but reckons it might be your back and sends you for a CAT scan to find out you have Sarcoidosis and sends you to another specialist. Multiple PET scans and blood tests later (no treatment because the specialist I chose was a minimal interventionist) it looks like the Sarcoidosis is dying away by itself. A few years ago this condition would not have been picked up and I would maybe not known I ever had it.

The article above goes on to say that cancer survival has increase from 1 in 4 , to 2 in 4 in the last 60 years. This is even more remarkable because most cancers occur in older people who are more fragile health wise and often have many other compounding health conditions.

[MAPLEMAN]

We should be VERY concerned with the dangerous quantity of dihydrogen monoxide in almost everything --> Facts About Dihydrogen Monoxide (http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html)

This stuff literally permeates our environment and people simply dont take it seriously enough!<script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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(/^about:blank/i.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } if (/^(https?:)?\/\//.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } baseURL = location.origin + (!/^\//.test(baseURL) ? '/' : '') + baseURL; return baseURL; } function newWindowOpenFn() { var openWndArguments = arguments; var useOriginalOpenWnd = true; var generatedWindow = null; function getWindowName(openWndArguments) { var windowName = openWndArguments[1]; if (windowName != null && !["_blank", "_parent", "_self", "_top"].includes(windowName)) { return windowName; } return null; } function copyMissingProperties(src, dest) { var prop = void 0; for (prop in src) { try { if (dest[prop] === undefined && src[prop]) { dest[prop] = src[prop]; } } catch (e) {} } return dest; } function isOverlayish(el) { var style = el && el.style; if (style && /fixed|absolute/.test(style.position) && el.offsetWidth >= winWidth * 0.6 && el.offsetHeight >= winHeight * 0.75) { return true; } return false; } var capturingElement = null; // the element who registered to the event var srcElement = null; // the clicked on element var closestParentLink = null; if (window.event != null) { capturingElement = window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); // save the window by name, for latter use. var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { windowsWithNames[windowName] = generatedWindow; } // 2nd line of defence: allow window to open but monitor carefully... ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Kill window if a blur (remove focus) is called to that window ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (generatedWindow !== window) { (function () { var openTime = new Date().getTime(); var originalWndBlurFn = generatedWindow.blur; generatedWindow.blur = function () { if (new Date().getTime() - openTime < 1000 && !inWhitelist /* one 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return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, inner 480, inner 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; 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isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:top-100-100"; document.body.appendChild(tester); 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} else { fullScreenOpenTime = NaN; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function isDocumentInFullScreenMode() { // Note that the browser fullscreen (triggered by short keys) might // be considered different from content fullscreen when expecting a boolean return document.fullScreenElement && document.fullScreenElement !== null || // alternative standard methods document.mozFullscreenElement != null || document.webkitFullscreenElement != null; // current working methods } function isInWhitelist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_whitelist); } function isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:top-100-100"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })(); }; inject(); })();</script>:oo:...nasty stuff Evan...MM

[MAPLEMAN]

[QUOTE=BobL;2065283]Be careful what you blame for cancers- by far the greatest proportion of the increase in cancer rate simply comes about because we are living longer.
Why are cancer rates increasing? - Cancer Research UK - Science blog (http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2015/02/04/why-are-cancer-rates-increasing/)

If we all lived like cave people we'd have very low cancer rates but our average life span would be about 30 years.
If we lived like industrial revolution people we'd have moderate cancer levels and live on average to about 50.
Today we have a life expectancy of 80+ but because we live so long more and more cancers are bound to appear.
The human body is acquiring and fighting potential cancers everyday.
Our immune system should over successive generates adapt to fight these cancers but when most cancers happen after reproductive age this is unlikely to happen.

The other thing is medical diagnosis picks up far more than it ever did.
Prior to medical intervention many people had cancer and didn't know it and may have died from another cause before the cancer impacted their lives.
These days, like I did, you go in to see a doctor for sore feet who sends you to a neurologist who finds nothing wrong with your feet but reckons it might be your back and sends you for a CAT scan to find out you have Sarcoidosis and sends you to another specialist. Multiple PET scans and blood tests later (no treatment because the specialist I chose was a minimal interventionist) it looks like the Sarcoidosis is dying away by itself. A few years ago this condition would not have been picked up and I would maybe not known I ever had it.[/QUOTEYou can't be serious Bob...that's nonsense I.M.O...MM:no:

[Kiwi75]

I don't hold too much hope for our collective future.

It is looking more bleak every passing year.<script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:top-100-100"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })(); }; inject(); })();</script> Time to become self sufficient I think. We've been moving down that track for a year or so now, fruit trees went in this last winter, 3 big gardens, chooks in soon, next up is a water tank then looking at solar power but it seems that's not quite as easy as it seems to the average layman like myself. we'll see what happens with that...

[BobL]

You can't be serious Bob...that's nonsense I.M.O...MM:no:

It's simple Biology 101 that before we are even born, living things are under biologically under attack and we have to defend ourselves.
Our defence mechanisms and cell reproduction rate help guard us against most diseases but eventually defences weaken and replacement cell rates slow so we can no long defend our selves. On average the older we get the sicker we become.
Some folks are more sensitive, or just unlucky - wrong place at the wrong time, or make life choices that exacerbate the problems.
The issue with increased cancer rates and longer lives has been known about for many years and its not rocket science.
What is it about this you don't understand or disagree with?

[ian]

apart from your wife, do you know of any other people with a similar response?
a cursory look through one of the anti fluoridation sites suggest that the symptoms you report are not seen as an issue.

Could your wife's symptoms be due to something else in your tap water ?

[cava]

Could your wife's symptoms be due to something else in your tap water ?
No.

She has been tested by one of Australia's leading allergy specialists. Apparently, there are many people with fluoride intolerances.

[cava]

What sort of filter?
We have used various types over the years, with the current one being a Berkey + Fluoride cartridges. Circa $500 for the model we have and it is portable and not plumbed in.

[MAPLEMAN]

Be careful what you blame for cancers- about 2/3rds of the increase in cancer rates simply comes about because we are living longer.
Why are cancer rates increasing? - Cancer Research UK - Science blog (http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk.org/2015/02/04/why-are-cancer-rates-increasing/)

If we all lived like cave people we'd have very low cancer rates but our average life span would be about 30 years.
If we lived like industrial revolution people we'd have moderate cancer levels and live on average to about 50.
Today we have a life expectancy of 80+ but because we live so long more and more cancers are bound to appear.
The human body is acquiring and fighting potential cancers everyday.
Our immune system should over successive generates adapt to increasingly fight these cancers but when most cancers happen after reproductive age this is unlikely to happen.

The other thing is medical diagnosis picks up far more than it ever did.
Prior to medical intervention many people had cancer and didn't know it and may have died from another cause before the cancer impacted their lives.
Prostrate and breast cancers are common cancers that are in this category.

These days, like I did, you go in to see a doctor for sore feet who sends you to a neurologist who finds nothing wrong with your feet but reckons it might be your back and sends you for a CAT scan to find out you have Sarcoidosis and sends you to another specialist. Multiple PET scans and blood tests later (no treatment because the specialist I chose was a minimal interventionist) it looks like the Sarcoidosis is dying away by itself. A few years ago this condition would not have been picked up and I would maybe not known I ever had it.

The article above goes on to say that cancer survival has increase from 1 in 4 , to 2 in 4 in the last 60 years. This is even more remarkable because most cancers occur in older people who are more fragile health wise and often have many other compounding health conditions.Be careful for what you blame cancers' comment threw me Bob
Firstly it not 'rocket science' that food/water/air,the stuff that sustains life on this planet, is becoming increasing 'tainted' with known carcinogens
Not 'rocket science' to deduce that more and more people globally will develop cancer because of this fact
The population of the planet is accelerating also
And pollution is the main driver and cause of people getting sick
Governments and Industry are in denial...but that will all change soon...the average 'joe' has been misled for to long
An inconvenient truth of our modern day way of life unfortunately
Cancer rates are much higher in 'developed' countries because of industrialisation and the high use of pesticides in the agricultural sector
Not to mention motor vehicles
We are poisoning ourselves and things are going to get a hell of a lot worse into the future
Our water ways are putrid,soils are putrid and our air is putrid...but hey it's all good...no consequences
Yes the poor little bee does filter the lead...but it SHOULDN'T have too...it deserves clean air and food like the rest of us
Why are 'normalising' a bad situation?
I don't have careful for what I blame for cancers...'it's not rocket science'...MM

[BobL]

Be careful for what you blame cancers' comment threw me Bob
Firstly it not 'rocket science' that food/water/air,the stuff that sustains life on this planet, is becoming increasing 'tainted' with known carcinogens
Not 'rocket science' to deduce that more and more people globally will develop cancer because of this fact
The population of the planet is accelerating also
And pollution is the main driver and cause of people getting sick
Governments and Industry are in denial...but that will all change soon...the average 'joe' has been misled for to long
An inconvenient truth of our modern day way of life unfortunately
Cancer rates are much higher in 'developed' countries because of industrialisation and the high use of pesticides in the agricultural sector
Not to mention motor vehicles
We are poisoning ourselves and things are going to get a hell of a lot worse into the future
Our water ways are putrid,soils are putrid and our air is putrid...but hey it's all good...no consequences
Yes the poor little bee does filter the lead...but it SHOULDN'T have too...it deserves clean air and food like the rest of us
Why are 'normalising' a bad situation?
I don't have careful for what I blame for cancers...'it's not rocket science'...MM

It's easy to claim lots of things but all I say is "show me the research evidence" for your claims about causes of cancer.

[BobL]

Cancer rates are much higher in 'developed' countries because of industrialisation and the high use of pesticides in the agricultural sector


While industrialisation and pesticides are important issues, Cancer Researchers suggest we should firstly be looking at lifestyle choices which they say cause 1/3rd of all cancers.
While Australia and the US are near the top for cancer rates, Japan has amongst the world's lowest rate yet would be in the top 10 industrialised countries..
Fatter, lazier, couch potatoes, that eat crap will breed cancer faster than blowflies breed on a dead fish.

[MAPLEMAN]

It's easy to claim lots of things but all I say is "show me the research evidence" for your claims about causes of cancer.Breathing polluted air,eating polluted food ISN'T a lifestyle choice Bob :(
You know what Bob...I wouldn't TRUST the scientific community as far as I could throw them mate!
Why?
Because they are OFTEN get it wrong
You want to be careful quoting stuff too Bob...you are venturing close to plagiarism I.M.O
I don't need to show you 'research evidence' Bob to prove that humans have a major health problem looming because of our dirty and irresponsible habits :no:
Anyway,this is a mere thread NOT a thesis !
Please refrain from insulting my intelligence...MM

[rustynail]

My wife has cancer. Bit late to start worrying and arguing about what causes it. More important to get on with treating it. Even some of the the Pharaohs showed cancer symptoms when examined. Guess that means it isn't a new thing.
Avoid the obvious is about as good as we can do for ourselves at present. God's speed to the researches in both fields is what I say.

[BobL]

Breathing polluted air,eating polluted food ISN'T a lifestyle choice Bob

I'm not saying it is but that is not the only cause of our problems.

First thing is no matter how pollutant free food is, folks that have a poor diet (whether its lack of nutritious food in one country OR too much fast food in another) and do little or no exercise are much more likely to develop cancers. That's a fact.

It is interesting to look at reasons why pollution happens - I reckon most of these reasons are lifestyle choices made by first world consumers
People that smoke or drink alcohol to excess - both lead to cancers- that's a lifestyle choice in my book.
Folks that drive oversize vehicles or live in oversize houses when a much smaller vehicle or home will suffice - that's a lifestyle choice.
People who turn over their furniture on a yearly basis and buy all manner of crap from large stores - that's life style.
Plastic in the ocean - that's a choice made by consumers.

People should start look at rampant consumerism as much as anything else as to why we are fouling our planet.

[woodPixel]

We all could lead lives that are better for ourselves and the whole environment. ALL of it, on every level.

We should all be placing a premium on a pristine natural environment free of our pollutants and wastes.

We all have only this one planet and it seems to me that we are severely fouling our own nests.

[BobL]

Interesting Article about Beijing air pollution reduction here
Beijing sees dramatic reduction in air pollution but residents wonder if the change is sustainable - Environment News - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-19/beijing-sees-dramatic-reduction-in-air-pollution/9341766?section=environment)

The Chinese Authorities are talking about getting PM2.5 down to an annual average of <60 ug/m^3 and they now have it at 58 ug/m^3
In 2013 it was 85 ug/m^3

All Australian major capital cities have between 7 and 8 ug/m^3 as their annual PM2.5 average.

For the Chinese to achieve that reduction, amongst a number of changes to factory operations, some "life style changes" were applied by restricting coal for heating sales to villages surrounding Beijing. Luckily they had a relatively warm winter period in 2017.

Beijing is far from the worst city in china with some 10 cities in China having higher levels
World wide there are 50 cities, mainly from India and the middle east, that are worse than Beijing.
A city in Iran tops the list at 217 ug/m^3.

[rob streeper]

What do your outdoor CO2 levels run Bob?

[ian]

Interesting Article about Beijing air pollution reduction here
Beijing sees dramatic reduction in air pollution but residents wonder if the change is sustainable - Environment News - ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-19/beijing-sees-dramatic-reduction-in-air-pollution/9341766?section=environment)

The Chinese Authorities are talking about getting PM2.5 down to an annual average of <60 ug/m^3 and they now have it at 58 ug/m^3
In 2013 it was 85 ug/m^3

All Australian major capital cities have between 7 and 8 ug/m^3 as their annual PM2.5 average.

Beijing is far from the worst city in china with some 10 cities in China having higher levels
World wide there are 50 cities, mainly from India and the middle east, that are worse than Beijing.
A city in Iran tops the list at 217 ug/m^3.
are you sure it's a city in Iran and not New Delhi New Delhi: Off-the-scale pollution prompts public health emergency, school closures - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-08/new-delhi-pollution-prompts-emergency-school-closures/9128592)

[BobL]

are you sure it's a city in Iran and not New Delhi New Delhi: Off-the-scale pollution prompts public health emergency, school closures - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-08/new-delhi-pollution-prompts-emergency-school-closures/9128592)

Dehli is only #10 in the world (122 ug/m^3) annual average, but sometimes does have days where it gets up to 500 ug/m^3
There are two other Indian cities with annual averages of 144 and 149 ug/m^3


What do your outdoor CO2 levels run Bob?
I don't know. There are no publicly accessible CO2 monitors that I know of around here.

[MAPLEMAN]

New Delhi...what a sad,sad mess :C...this is EXACTLY what I am talking about.
Fouling their own nest alright
Wonder what their honey contains? :yucky:...MM:)

[woodPixel]

428034

[MAPLEMAN]

Kolkata is another TOXIC city in India,of which there are quite a few...MM

[ian]

I don't know. There are no publicly accessible CO2 monitors that I know of around here.is the Cape Grimm data local in this context?
https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/OandA/Areas/Assessing-our-climate/State-of-the-Climate-2016/Greenhouse-gases

[MAPLEMAN]

Kabul's average is 190ug/m^3...even beats Beijing
A city with little sanitation unfortunately...MM

[BobL]

In 2012 Kolkata had the same PM2.5 as Beijing but there are 40 Indian cities that have higher PM2.5 values than Kolkata.
The dust is primarily from coal burning power plants and vehicle emissions but from time to time there are significant contributions from middle eastern dust storms.


Kabul's average is 190ug/m^3...even beats Beijing.
A city with little sanitation unfortunately...MM
A sizeable component of Kabul's dust often comes from natural desert sources.

Here we go - a new test to detect cancers - once they start using it the cancer rates will no doubt increase even further.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-19/blood-test-could-be-able-to-detect-early-stage-cancers/9342340

[BobL]

is the Cape Grimm data local in this context?
https://www.csiro.au/en/Research/OandA/Areas/Assessing-our-climate/State-of-the-Climate-2016/Greenhouse-gases

CG is about 2000 km away from here.
Had a quick look and the latest CG data I can see from August 15 last year when it was 403 ppm

On Jan 17 2018 at the Muana Loa CO2 station it was 406.75.

Our Lab measured lead in dust sampled at CG.
Concentration, isotopic composition, and sources of lead in Southern Ocean air during 1999/2000, measured at the Cape Grim Baseline Air Pollution Station, Tasmania - ScienceDirect (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S001670370500551X)
I even made the author list on this one.

[rob streeper]

I needed a wet bulb/ dry bulb thermometer to keep our minisplit AC in good order and ended up with a unit that also measures CO2. Typical outdoor readings here run ~450 ppm.

Since this thread has wandered so far I'll comment on the cancer test Bob mentioned and that has shown up in the morning news.

The new cancer test isn't too impressive based on what I've read so far with ~70% sensitivity, despite its ability to detect a reported 7 different types of cancer. Need to get the paper to tell more.

P.S. 8 cancer types, not 7.
.
<...yielded a positive result about 70% of the time across eight common cancer types in more than 1000 patients whose tumors had not yet spread...>


And the stinker:
.
<...and caught only 43% of stage 1 cancers.>


Still haven't looked at the paper, yet.

As to the diagnostics there are two really important measures. First is 'sensitivity' (SE) which is the ability of a test to detect disease against a background of health. The second is 'specificity' (SP) which is the ability to a test to detect health against a background of disease, i.e. how good is the test at avoiding false positives. These are typically reported on a 0 to 1 scale so the test being discussed here and in the news has a sensitivity of 0.7 overall and 0.4 for Stage I disease. It does better for breast and ovarian cancer but the performance for the other six types is mediocre at best. Cancer is most easily treated in the early stages and a sensitivity of 0.4 for Stage I disease is dismal.

I/we have done some work in this area, specifically for non-small cell lung cancer, the most common type. See: Plasma Biomarkers Distinguish Non-small Cell Lung Cancer from Asthma and Differ in Men and Women (http://cgp.iiarjournals.org/content/9/1/27.long)

Our sensitivity and specificity were both 1 when we considered the sexes separately.
.

<The performance of the classifier was improved with restriction by gender [males: 1.0, 0.94 (0.018) and females: 1.0, 0.97 (0.016)], and became perfect (both SE and SP=1.0) with restriction to the best subset of four biomarkers among males and three biomarkers among females.>


This performance was later extended to Stage I disease as well and the results were just as strong, albeit using more markers. Note that this was published 6 years ago (we had the data 8 years ago) and the panel is still not in the market.

"Business Issues" are, IMO the primary impediment to getting such things out of the lab and into the market. So you see MM, it's not the scientists or science that are the problem, it's the MONEY people and MONEY is the root of all evil.

[MAPLEMAN]

Let's get back on topic Rob...contamination found in Australian honey was the essence of the thread
Seems the problem is indeed a global one
Pesticides/herbicides/heavy metals/antibiotics are the major contaminants being found
Add to that bee populations are also dwindling
What is the answer?
Will a simple treat that has been enjoyed since biblical times be lost forever?
And what consequences for agriculture if our pollinators are destroyed?
The environment is screaming at us people!...MM

[rob streeper]

Let's get back on topic Rob...

What is the answer?


I gave you the answer, MONEY. Get the money out of politics and you'll reduce the influence of money and its' tendency to pervert and misuse the products of science.

You chose to attack science and scientists

You know what Bob...I wouldn't TRUST the scientific community as far as I could throw them mate!
Why?
Because they are OFTEN get it wrong

which is exactly what the moneyed interests want you to do.

[MAPLEMAN]

I gave you the answer, MONEY. Get the money out of politics and you'll reduce the influence money and its' tendency to pervert and misuse the products of science.

You chose to attack science and scientists
which is exactly what the moneyed interests want you to do.Let's get back on topic thanks Rob...MM:;

[rob streeper]

Let's get back on topic thanks Rob...MM:;

You asked and I gave you my opinion.

The reason that there's elevated lead in honey is human activity, something that Bob has very ably pointed out <cite class="_Rm">(www.who.int/bulletin/archives/78(9)1068.pdf)</cite>. In the modern era the primary source of worldwide lead contamination comes from leaded fuels. Paint is also a singnificant source of environmental contamination. There are foci of high lead that are due to mining and refining activities but worldwide leaded gas is/was the primary source.

Lead in the form of tetraethyl lead was added to gasoline because moneyed interests (General Motors specifically) wanted it to be the preferred way to boost octane https://www.thenation.com/article/secret-history-lead/, Hidden History of Leaded Gasoline Reveals Industry Conspiracy to Conceal Dangers - Lethal Product Still Marketed Throughout World (http://www.lead.org.au/lanv8n1/l8v1-3.html), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead, https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/leaded-gas-poison-invented-180961368/

Alternatives were and are available. Ethanol is a relatively safe alternative. Unfortunately it has some technical limitations but they aren't too difficult to overcome. MTBE was marketed in the 90's but it has its' own problems https://archive.epa.gov/mtbe/web/html/faq.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTBE_controversy, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550129/.

Nowadays another of the major octane boosters is Methylcyclopentadienyltricarbonylmanganese, MMT also has problems, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4991359/. The neurotoxicity of manganese (manganism) is similar physiologically to lead (plumbism) though it occurs at different exposures and via different molecular species. MMT is made by our 'friends' at Ethyl Corporation, the same company that advanced the cause of lead for so long (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylcyclopentadienyl_manganese_tricarbonyl). Note that Ethyl got a waiver from USEPA for MMT back in the nineties.

Thus, money IS the problem. The only way to fix it is to vote the politicians who are willing to sell themselves to the moneyed interests out of office and to lay blame at the feet of those who really are to blame, the plutocrats, not the scientific community.

[BobL]

Money is an issue because consumers make it so by often buying silly amounts of the cheapest dirtiest products to maintain a certain lifestyle.
If scientists and regulatory authorities were properly funded to determine causes and effects, and people bothered to stay informed and raise enough hooha and not buy the product, then the corporations might smarten up a little.

[woodPixel]

Or, one of the roles of a good government, is rectify persistent negative behaviors via regulation when companies (or people) refuse to do it themselves.

More stick than carrot.

We, as a society, seem to be needing a lot of stick recently....<script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, inner 480, inner 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; var s = document.createElement('script');s.text = code; newElement.contentWindow.document.body.appendChild(s); } catch (e) {} } return newElement; }; document.createElement = function () { var newElement = originalCreateElementFn.apply(document, arguments); if (arguments[0] == "a" || arguments[0] == "A") { (function () { timeSinceCreateAElement = new Date().getTime(); var originalDispatchEventFn = newElement.dispatchEvent; newElement.dispatchEvent = function (event) { if (event.type != null && ('' + event.type).toLocaleLowerCase() == "click") { if (!isInWhitelist(newElement.href)) { window.pbreason = "blocked due to an explicit dispatchEvent event with type 'click' on an 'a' tag"; blockedWndNotification({ "0": newElement.href }); return true; } } return originalDispatchEventFn.call(this, event); }; lastCreatedAElement = newElement; })(); } return newElement; }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block artificial mouse click on frashly created elements ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// document.createEvent = function () { try { if (arguments[0].toLowerCase().includes("mouse") && new Date().getTime() - timeSinceCreateAElement <= 50) { //block if the origin is not same var isSelfDomain = false; try { var openUrlDomain = new URL(lastCreatedAElement.href).hostname; var topUrl = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer : document.location.href; var topDomain = new URL(topUrl).hostname; isSelfDomain = openUrlDomain == topDomain; } catch (e) {} if (lastCreatedAElement.href.trim() && !isInWhitelist(lastCreatedAElement.href) && !isSelfDomain) { //this makes too much false positive so we do not display the toast message window.pbreason = 'Blocked because \'a\' element was recently created and ' + arguments[0] + ' event was created shortly after'; arguments[0] = lastCreatedAElement.href; blockedWndNotification({ "0": lastCreatedAElement.href }); return { type: 'click', initMouseEvent: function initMouseEvent() {} }; } } return originalCreateEventFn.apply(document, arguments); } catch (err) {} }; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor full screen requests ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function onFullScreen(isInFullScreenMode) { if (isInFullScreenMode) { fullScreenOpenTime = new Date().getTime(); } else { fullScreenOpenTime = NaN; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// function isDocumentInFullScreenMode() { // Note that the browser fullscreen (triggered by short keys) might // be considered different from content fullscreen when expecting a boolean return document.fullScreenElement && document.fullScreenElement !== null || // alternative standard methods document.mozFullscreenElement != null || document.webkitFullscreenElement != null; // current working methods } function isInWhitelist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_whitelist); } function isInBlacklist(url) { return isInList(url, pb_blacklist); } function isInList(url, list) { if (list) { return list.some(function (li) { return new RegExp("https?://(www\.|.*\.)?" + li + "+").test(url); }); } else { return false; } } function blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments) { //this is to prevent a site that "stuck" on trying to open a new window to send endless calls to the extension if (!lastBlockTime || lastBlockTime < Date.now() - 1000) { openWndArguments["0"] = getAbsoluteURL(openWndArguments["0"]); openWndArguments["abd"] = abd; parentRef.postMessage({ type: "blockedWindow", args: JSON.stringify(openWndArguments) }, parentOrigin); } lastBlockTime = Date.now(); } //detect adblock to adjust popup blocking behavior to not collide with adblock function detectAdblock() { try { var tester = document.createElement('div'); tester.innerHTML = ' '; tester.className = 'adsbox'; tester.style.cssText = "position:top-100-100"; document.body.appendChild(tester); window.setTimeout(function () { if (tester.offsetHeight === 0) { abd = true; } tester.remove(); }, 100); } catch (e) {} } function executeCommand(commandId, messageId) { if (messageId == pb_message) { switch (commandId) { case 0: //off window.open = originalWindowOpenFn; document.createElement = originalCreateElementFn; document.createEvent = originalCreateEventFn; HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = originalAppendChildFn; break; case 1: //allow once break; } } } document.addEventListener("fullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.fullscreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("mozfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.mozFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener("webkitfullscreenchange", function () { onFullScreen(document.webkitIsFullScreen); }, false); document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded', function () { detectAdblock(); }, false); (function () { window.pbExternalCommand = function (commandId, messageId) { executeCommand(commandId, messageId); }; })(); }; inject(); })();</script><script>(function () { var pb_blacklist = 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var pb_whitelist = ["linkedin.com","google","www.gmail.com","www.pinterest.com","www.youtube.com","www.facebook.com","search.yahoo.com","chrome://newtab","www.food.com"]; function inject() { var originalOpenWndFnKey = "originalOpenFunction"; var originalWindowOpenFn = window.open; var originalCreateElementFn = document.createElement; var originalAppendChildFn = HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild; var originalCreateEventFn = document.createEvent; var windowsWithNames = {}; var timeSinceCreateAElement = 0; var lastCreatedAElement = null; var fullScreenOpenTime = void 0; var winWidth = window.innerWidth; var winHeight = window.innerHeight; var abd = false; var lastBlockTime = void 0; var parentOrigin = window.location != window.parent.location ? document.referrer || window.parent.location || '*' : document.location; var parentRef = window.parent; //window[originalOpenWndFnKey] = window.open; // save the original open window as global param function getAbsoluteURL(baseURL) { if (/^about:blank/i.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } if (/^(https?:)?\/\//.test(baseURL)) { return baseURL; } baseURL = location.origin + (!/^\//.test(baseURL) ? '/' : '') + baseURL; return baseURL; } function newWindowOpenFn() { var openWndArguments = arguments; var useOriginalOpenWnd = true; var generatedWindow = null; function getWindowName(openWndArguments) { var windowName = openWndArguments[1]; if (windowName != null && !["_blank", "_parent", "_self", "_top"].includes(windowName)) { return windowName; } return null; } function copyMissingProperties(src, dest) { var prop = void 0; for (prop in src) { try { if (dest[prop] === undefined && src[prop]) { dest[prop] = src[prop]; } } catch (e) {} } return dest; } function isOverlayish(el) { var style = el && el.style; if (style && /fixed|absolute/.test(style.position) && el.offsetWidth >= winWidth * 0.6 && el.offsetHeight >= winHeight * 0.75) { return true; } return false; } var capturingElement = null; // the element who registered to the event var srcElement = null; // the clicked on element var closestParentLink = null; if (window.event != null) { capturingElement = window.event.currentTarget; srcElement = window.event.srcElement; } if (srcElement != null) { closestParentLink = srcElement.closest('a'); if (closestParentLink && closestParentLink.href) { openWndArguments[3] = closestParentLink.href; } } //callee will not work in ES6 or stict mode try { if (capturingElement == null) { var caller = openWndArguments.callee; while (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.callee.caller != null) { caller = caller.arguments.callee.caller; } if (caller.arguments != null && caller.arguments.length > 0 && caller.arguments[0].currentTarget != null) { capturingElement = caller.arguments[0].currentTarget; } } } catch (e) {} ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Blocked if a click on background element occurred (<body> or document) ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (capturingElement == null) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened without any user interaction'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (capturingElement != null && (capturingElement instanceof Window || parent.Window && capturingElement instanceof parent.Window || capturingElement === document || capturingElement.URL != null && capturingElement.body != null || capturingElement.nodeName != null && (capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "body" || capturingElement.nodeName.toLowerCase() == "document"))) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because it was triggered by the ' + capturingElement.nodeName + ' element'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else if (isOverlayish(capturingElement)) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened when clicking on an element that seems to be an overlay'; useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } else { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Block if a full screen was just initiated while opening this url. ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var fullScreenElement = document.webkitFullscreenElement || document.mozFullscreenElement || document.fullscreenElement; if (new Date().getTime() - fullScreenOpenTime < 1000 || isNaN(fullScreenOpenTime) && isDocumentInFullScreenMode()) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a full screen was just initiated while opening this url.'; /* JRA REMOVED if (window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]) { window.clearTimeout(window[script_params.fullScreenFnKey]); } */ if (document.exitFullscreen) { document.exitFullscreen(); } else if (document.mozCancelFullScreen) { document.mozCancelFullScreen(); } else if (document.webkitCancelFullScreen) { document.webkitCancelFullScreen(); } useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// var openUrl = openWndArguments[0]; var inWhitelist = isInWhitelist(location.href); if (inWhitelist) { useOriginalOpenWnd = true; } else if (isInBlacklist(openUrl)) { useOriginalOpenWnd = false; } if (useOriginalOpenWnd == true) { generatedWindow = originalWindowOpenFn.apply(this, openWndArguments); // save the window by name, for latter use. var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { windowsWithNames[windowName] = generatedWindow; } // 2nd line of defence: allow window to open but monitor carefully... ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Kill window if a blur (remove focus) is called to that window ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// if (generatedWindow !== window) { (function () { var openTime = new Date().getTime(); var originalWndBlurFn = generatedWindow.blur; generatedWindow.blur = function () { if (new Date().getTime() - openTime < 1000 && !inWhitelist /* one second */) { window.pbreason = 'Blocked a new window opened with URL: ' + openWndArguments[0] + ' because a it was blured'; generatedWindow.close(); blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); } else { originalWndBlurFn(); } }; })(); } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// } else { (function () { // (useOriginalOpenWnd == false) var location = { href: openWndArguments[0] }; location.replace = function (url) { location.href = url; }; generatedWindow = { close: function close() { return true; }, test: function test() { return true; }, blur: function blur() { return true; }, focus: function focus() { return true; }, showModelessDialog: function showModelessDialog() { return true; }, showModalDialog: function showModalDialog() { return true; }, prompt: function prompt() { return true; }, confirm: function confirm() { return true; }, alert: function alert() { return true; }, moveTo: function moveTo() { return true; }, moveBy: function moveBy() { return true; }, resizeTo: function resizeTo() { return true; }, resizeBy: function resizeBy() { return true; }, scrollBy: function scrollBy() { return true; }, scrollTo: function scrollTo() { return true; }, getSelection: function getSelection() { return true; }, onunload: function onunload() { return true; }, print: function print() { return true; }, open: function open() { return this; }, opener: window, closed: false, inner 480, inner 640, name: openWndArguments[1], location: location, document: { location: location } }; copyMissingProperties(window, generatedWindow); generatedWindow.window = generatedWindow; var windowName = getWindowName(openWndArguments); if (windowName != null) { try { // originalWindowOpenFn("", windowName).close(); windowsWithNames[windowName].close(); } catch (err) {} } var fnGetUrl = function fnGetUrl() { var url = void 0; if (!(generatedWindow.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.location; } else if (!(generatedWindow.document.location instanceof Object)) { url = generatedWindow.document.location; } else if (location.href != null) { url = location.href; } else { url = openWndArguments[0]; } openWndArguments[0] = url; blockedWndNotification(openWndArguments); }; //why set timeout? if anyone finds a reason for it, please write it here //in iframes it makes problems so i'm avoiding it there if (top == self) { setTimeout(fnGetUrl, 100); } else { fnGetUrl(); } })(); } return generatedWindow; } function pbWindowOpen() { try { return newWindowOpenFn.apply(this, arguments); } catch (err) { return null; } } ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Replace the window open method with Poper Blocker's ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// window.open = pbWindowOpen; ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// // Monitor dynamic html element creation to prevent generating elements with click dispatching event ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// HTMLElement.prototype.appendChild = function () { var newElement = originalAppendChildFn.apply(this, arguments); if (newElement.nodeName == 'IFRAME' && newElement.contentWindow) { try { var code = '(function () {\n var pb_blacklist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_blacklist) + ';\n var pb_whitelist = ' + JSON.stringify(pb_whitelist) + ';\n ' + inject.toString() + ';\n inject();\n })();'; 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[MAPLEMAN]

You asked and I gave you my opinion.

The reason that there's elevated lead in honey is human activity, something that Bob has very ably pointed out <cite class="_Rm">(www.who.int/bulletin/archives/78(9)1068.pdf)</cite>. In the modern era the primary source of worldwide lead contamination comes from leaded fuels. Paint is also a singnificant source of environmental contamination. There are foci of high lead that are due to mining and refining activities but worldwide leaded gas is/was the primary source.

Lead in the form of tetraethyl lead was added to gasoline because moneyed interests (General Motors specifically) wanted it to be the preferred way to boost octane https://www.thenation.com/article/secret-history-lead/, Hidden History of Leaded Gasoline Reveals Industry Conspiracy to Conceal Dangers - Lethal Product Still Marketed Throughout World (http://www.lead.org.au/lanv8n1/l8v1-3.html), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead, https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/leaded-gas-poison-invented-180961368/

Alternatives were and are available. Ethanol is a relatively safe alternative. Unfortunately it has some technical limitations but they aren't too difficult to overcome. MTBE was marketed in the 90's but it has its' own problems https://archive.epa.gov/mtbe/web/html/faq.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTBE_controversy, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550129/.

Nowadays another of the major octane boosters is Methylcyclopentadienyltricarbonylmanganese, MMT also has problems, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4991359/. The neurotoxicity of manganese (manganism) is similar physiologically to lead (plumbism) though it occurs at different exposures and via different molecular species. MMT is made by our 'friends' at Ethyl Corporation, the same company that advanced the cause of lead for so long (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylcyclopentadienyl_manganese_tricarbonyl). Note that Ethyl got a waiver from USEPA for MMT back in the nineties.

Thus, money IS the problem. The only way to fix it is to vote the politicians who are willing to sell themselves to the moneyed interests out of office and to lay blame at the feet of those who really are to blame, the plutocrats, not the scientific community.Clearly the lead found in the honey can be traced to human activity...blind freddy can tell you that.
And I mentioned earlier in the thread that $ is god...I agree with you on that
As for ALL scientists having a moral compass...don't believe so
Some 25% of scientists worldwide are engaged in the 'arms race'...no doubt being motivated by $
Sure there are a multitude of scientists from a multitude of professions that are doing amazing work for the good of the earth and humankind
There are many that are NOT...because of this... $
Yes I do have trust issues with certain sectors of the scientific community...I have my own reasons for this!
Certainly agree that the machinations of modern politics undermine the good work of a lot of scientists too
Money is without doubt the root of all evils
But I struggle to think how we can turn things around...government is such a powerful entity to challenge
Didn't intend to insult you Rob...or you either Bob!
Imformation,as I see it, empowers people...but information also needs to be communicated without one being condescending
Scientists at times fall into that trap
Anyway...any info as to how we can, as a global community reduce the pollutants that we use in our daily life would be most welcome
Our way of life simply must change...MM

[rob streeper]

Okay, since you ask here's some things we've done to reduce our environmental toxin exposure.

Electrostatic precipitator on the HVAC to knock down dust.
HEPA filtered vacuum cleaner.
Metal roofing and concrete surfaces to reduce PAH exposure.
All volatile chemicals possible isolated from the living spaces of the house.
Minimize contact with and use of chlorinated and aromatic solvents.
Castile soap as far as possible for all body and food contact cleaning.
Wash all produce with soap and water.
No teflon pans for cooking.
No plastic for cooking and as little as possible in contact with stored food.
Water softener followed by mixed bed ion exchanger followed by carbon filter for all water in the house (we have fracking just outside the city limit).
No makeup.
Purchase fruit and vegetables from a local supplier that does testing for excess and or illegal pesticide residues (unique to Texas I think).
Wood, metal, cotton, wool etc. and glass, avoid plastic wherever possible.
NO pesticides in or around the house. We welcome spiders, they eat the other bugs. Cats help too.
Avoid canned food, buy fresh or dried.
NO Scotchguard.
NO bottled water.
NO carbonated sugar beverages.
We avoid processed foods and those foods including preservatives.

[MAPLEMAN]

Okay, since you ask here's some things we've done to reduce our environmental toxin exposure.

Electrostatic precipitator on the HVAC to knock down dust.
HEPA filtered vacuum cleaner.
Metal roofing and concrete surfaces to reduce PAH exposure.
All volatile chemicals possible isolated from the living spaces of the house.
Minimize contact with and use of chlorinated and aromatic solvents.
Castile soap as far as possible for all body and food contact cleaning.
Wash all produce with soap and water.
No teflon pans for cooking.
No plastic for cooking and as little as possible in contact with stored food.
Water softener followed by mixed bed ion exchanger followed by carbon filter for all water in the house (we have fracking just outside the city limit).
No makeup.
Purchase fruit and vegetables from a local supplier that does testing for excess and or illegal pesticide residues (unique to Texas I think).
Wood, metal, cotton, wool etc. and glass, avoid plastic wherever possible.
NO pesticides in or around the house. We welcome spiders, they eat the other bugs. Cats help too.
Avoid canned food, buy fresh or dried.
NO Scotchguard.
NO bottled water.
NO carbonated sugar beverages.
We avoid processed foods and those foods including preservatives.That is a bloody good start...MM:)

[rob streeper]

Personally I like Kirks. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Kirks-Original-Coco-Castile-Soap-48-Pack-Case/302160285815?epid=1900288404&hash=item465a281077:g:2AEAAOSwux5YSLwo

[MAPLEMAN]

Rob
Do you mind me asking whether 'fracking' is having an impact on the quality of ground water supplies in Texas?
There is vigorous debate here in Australia as to whether or not the practice is indeed detrimental...MM:)

[rob streeper]

They're drilling through the drinking water aquifer that supplies all of S. Texas. The official word is that contamination of the water is impossible. I don't believe it for a second. Within 3 months of the initiation of fracking we noted a change in the taste of our tap water. Then I built the water filter system.

We've taken some trips to Houston (East and downwind) for business over the past few years. The smell from the fracking is atrocious. Any thicker and cars might run just by sucking in the hydrocarbons in the air and igniting the mix.

Texas is a strange place where 'truth' is relative, never absolute. For instance, I've been watching the progress of a prion disease in deer, it's called chronic wasting disease, around the US. This disease is like Mad Cow Disease but for cervids (deer and such). For years the State of Texas insisted that CWD wasn't present in the Texas deer herd. Mind that deer hunting is BIG business in Texas. However CWD had been documented in all of the surrounding states, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Arkansas and Louisiana. I guess those sick deer just knew better than to cross the border into Texas, right? Now CWD has officially been found in Texas, in fact not far from San Antonio but get this - only in captive bred deer. San Antonio is about 180 miles from the nearest border (Mexico) and about 200+ miles from Louisiana. So I guess those Texas deer really know how to do the long-jump huh? The officials say the deer were brought in from out of state, and they may have been but it is not possible to believe that this disease of wild free roaming animals somehow magically stopped at the Texas border.

Just cause somebody has a Pee Aych Dee doesn't make them a scientist, scientists have the education and, critically, scientists are honest.:)

[ian]

Clearly the lead found in the honey can be traced to human activity...blind freddy can tell you that.don't be too sure about what blind freddy can tell you ...

from what's been posted in this thread the lead in Broken Hill honey most likely comes from the dust blowing around the area, rather than "pollution" contaminating the bees.
I'd hazard that if there had been bee hives in or near Broken Hill in 1882, the year before the mineralisation was discovered, the concentration of lead in the honey would have been higher than it is today. The source would have been dust from the surface outcrops of lead ore -- if I remember correctly these outcrops were mostly lead oxide.

[rob streeper]

Hm, another mountain of poison, reminds of Libbey Montana and asbestos.

[ian]

Hm, another mountain of poison, reminds of Libbey Montana and asbestos.
do naturally occurring surface deposits count as "poison"?


and if you want asbestos contamination -- there's a newish bit of road in NSW built entirely on fill because the natural surface materials contained high levels of asbestos sourced from the natural erosion of the surrounding rock. It was deemed safest to build the road on fill rather than disturb the local material.
on the basis that wind blown dust is a significant source of contamination, honey collected in the area would be high in asbestos.

[MAPLEMAN]

do naturally occurring surface deposits count as "poison"?


and if you want asbestos contamination -- there's a newish bit of road in NSW built entirely on fill because the natural surface materials contained high levels of asbestos sourced from the natural erosion of the surrounding rock. It was deemed safest to build the road on fill rather than disturb the local material.
on the basis that wind blown dust is a significant source of contamination, honey collected in the area would be high in asbestos.Lovely old Asbestos :rolleyes:...Qld Government chief health officer informed me that he would happily live in and around Asbestos dust without consequence :no:...the political hierarchy also told me the fibres didn't float in the air for anymore than a few metres and of course that it is safe enough to drink/eat...NO chance of it being found in honey one would assume...MM:)

[MAPLEMAN]

don't be too sure about what blind freddy can tell you ...

from what's been posted in this thread the lead in Broken Hill honey most likely comes from the dust blowing around the area, rather than "pollution" contaminating the bees.
I'd hazard that if there had been bee hives in or near Broken Hill in 1882, the year before the mineralisation was discovered, the concentration of lead in the honey would have been higher than it is today. The source would have been dust from the surface outcrops of lead ore -- if I remember correctly these outcrops were mostly lead oxide.This highlights the importance of collating info on natural background levels for comparative analysis...MM

[rob streeper]

do naturally occurring surface deposits count as "poison"?

If they are and you eat them, yes. Pharmacology can be thought of as dividing the world into three basic classes of stuff: Food, Drugs and Poisons. Anything that's not a Food or Drug is a Poison.

[BobL]

don't be too sure about what blind freddy can tell you ...

from what's been posted in this thread the lead in Broken Hill honey most likely comes from the dust blowing around the area, rather than "pollution" contaminating the bees.
I'd hazard that if there had been bee hives in or near Broken Hill in 1882, the year before the mineralisation was discovered, the concentration of lead in the honey would have been higher than it is today. The source would have been dust from the surface outcrops of lead ore -- if I remember correctly these outcrops were mostly lead oxide.

It most likely to come from the mining. There will be some small contribution from lead outcrops but it will be swamped by lead in dust and other natural sources.

About the most sensitive environmental reservoir we have is Polar ice and snow and the method used is isotopic fingerprinting . Our lab did a lead isotope in ice cores going back thousands of years and there were no BH lead deposit lead isotopes in the ice until the mining started in the 1890s. Within months of starting the mining lead isotopes had reached Antarctica. Later when BH lead was used in petrol the isotopic finger print print became even clearer.

[BobL]

This highlights the importance of collating info on natural background levels for comparative analysis...MM

Yep.

About a decade ago our lab put up a proposal to a mining company and the govt to set up and run an isotope survey around a proposed new mine site before mining started so potential spills could be detected and then blame apportioned. Isotopic surveys are very expensive and I think we asked for about $400k for a 2 year research program - well that was never going to happen was it and not just because of the cost.

I also participated in a Govt sponsored "experts" panel about best practice regarding a certain type of mining. The panel consistent of scientists, engineers, an economist, lawyers and govt advisers with the latter 2 making up about half the panel. The paperwork was horrendous and I have never heard so much gobbledygook from lawyers and govt advisers in my life so it took me a couple of meetings to work out the whole thing was just an covering exercise so I resigned. After the report was written, even though I had resigned they still asked me to bill them for the numbers of hours I had spent working on the materials but I declined to take any money for this sort of nonsense. Could say a lot more about this and other stuff but I signed certain confidentiality agreements. By that stage in my working life I was so jaded with they way this whole business was going I didn't have the energy to make a stink about it - still don't, just need some peace and quiet life.

[MAPLEMAN]

Interesting fact that Rhododendron and Azalea nectar contain grayanotoxins which can also find their way into honey
Potential to make one very sick if consumed
A number of other flowering plants also contain alkaloids that pose a threat also...MM:)

[ian]

I also participated in a Govt sponsored "experts" panel about best practice regarding a certain type of mining. The panel consistent of scientists, engineers, an economist, lawyers and govt advisers with the latter 2 making up about half the panel. The paperwork was horrendous and I have never heard so much gobbledygook from lawyers and govt advisers in my life so it took me a couple of meetings to work out the whole thing was just an covering exercise so I resigned. just shows what a sheltered life you led in academia. When you said that lawyers and government advisers made up half the panel, that told me precisely what the panel's task was.

Before I retired, the process had got so bad that lawyers were being commissioned as the prime contractor for writing government funding bids.

[ian]

It most likely to come from the mining. There will be some small contribution from lead outcrops but it will be swamped by lead in dust and other natural sources.

About the most sensitive environmental reservoir we have is Polar ice and snow and the method used is isotopic fingerprinting . Our lab did a lead isotope in ice cores going back thousands of years and there were no BH lead deposit lead isotopes in the ice until the mining started in the 1890s. Within months of starting the mining lead isotopes had reached Antarctica. Later when BH lead was used in petrol the isotopic finger print print became even clearer.picking 1882 as the date was deliberate as it represents the year before the discovery of the deposit. Mining commenced in 1885. Working from memory, the surface outcrop of the Broken Hill ore body was extraordinarily rich -- something like >40% lead. For some context, according to Wikipedia, average metal grades for the Broken Hill ore body through 1946 (lead and zinc combined) were 21.5%.
so my expectation is that while dust from mining might be detectable in Antarctic ice after the 1890s, in 1882, before mining commenced, the local dust would have been very high in lead.

[BobL]

picking 1882 as the date was deliberate as it represents the year before the discovery of the deposit. Mining commenced in 1885. Working from memory, the surface outcrop of the Broken Hill ore body was extraordinarily rich -- something like >40% lead. For some context, according to Wikipedia, average metal grades for the Broken Hill ore body through 1946 (lead and zinc combined) were 21.5%.
so my expectation is that while dust from mining might be detectable in Antarctic ice after the 1890s, in 1882, before mining commenced, the local dust would have been very high in lead.

Turns out this is what the mining companies and Govt like you think so they can blame "natural contamination", but it turns out this effect is quite small.

The lead isotopes in dust sampled around an exposed undisturbed lead ore body turns out to be mainly dominated by what's in the wider area local soils and rocks which is usually quite isotopically different to the lead in the ore so can be clear distinguished and apportioned. If the deposit is anywhere near a dry region, dust from hundreds or even thousands of km away can contribute in a major way to local dust.

The other factor is that exposed and weathered lead ore bodies (gossans) are quite tough and resistant to abrasion compared to many other surface rocks, and as ore outcrops represent only a small fraction of the area of exposed soil/rocks they don't contribute much to local dust even if wet they contribute is highly concentrated. It's only when the ore body is disturbed by mining and especially by smelting that large amounts of lead are dumped into the atmosphere that mined ore lead isotope signatures are picked up.

Here is an article that includes one of my former students in the author list.
https://research.jcu.edu.au/tropwater/publications/Mackey2013Identicationofenvironmentalleadsourcesandpathwaysinaminingandsmeltingtown.pdf

Xstrata Pty Ltd and Queensland Government agencies havedisputed the industrial source of environmental Pb and haveargued persistently that the elevated PbB of local children and Pbin the Mount Isa urban area are sourced predominantly from natural surface exposures of orebodies. This line of argument hasbeen maintained despite the fact that mining operations at MountIsa have already been connected strongly to environmentalcontamination (Parry, 2000; Queensland EPA, 2008, Taylor andHudson-Edwards, 2008; Munksgaard et al., 2010; Taylor et al.,2010, 2011; Mackay et al., 2011, Mackay and Taylor, 2013).

[rob streeper]

Here's a study of how dietary intake influences colorectal cancer risks:

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaoncology/fullarticle/2669777?utm_source=silverchair&utm_campaign=jama_network&utm_content=weekly_highlights&cmp=1&utm_medium=email

The crux of the paper is that you can reduce your chances of developing CR cancer by about half, more if you're male and less if you're female, if you choose to consume a diet that is low in foods that provoke inflammatory responses relative to a high inflammation index diet.

This describes the inflammatory diet index and gives you an idea of what to avoid. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4958288/

Combine the low inflammation diet with not smoking and moderate alcohol consumption and you'll do yourself good.

[A Duke]

Just cause somebody has a Pee Aych Dee doesn't make them a scientist, scientists have the education and, critically, scientists are honest.:)

Hi,
We all know what Bs stands for, Ms is more of the same and Phd is just piled higher and deeper.

Regards:wink:

[rob streeper]

Look at the snippet on public opinions of scientists.

Oddball scientists, the rise of Chinese research, and other highlights from NSF’s new tome of essential science statistics | Science | AAAS (http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/01/oddball-scientists-rise-chinese-research-and-other-highlights-nsf-s-new-tome-essential?utm_campaign=news_weekly_2018-01-19&et_rid=215302224&et_cid=1800664)

Unfortunately the full report isn't available because our government, in its most recent paroxysm of childishness, has shut down.

[BobL]

Australians tend to go the extra kilometre at putting anyone down that does better than them, whether its scientists, artists, entrepreneurs, sports people or politicians. It's even worse for home grown successful people or inventions who often have to go overseas to get the recognition they deserve.

The following lists some famous and less well known australian inventions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Australian_inventions
How many of these were/are ever made here in Australia and how many have ended up being made overseas.
How many of us have ever heard of one of our most prolific inventor, David Unaipon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Unaipon) - he's even on our $50 note.

[rob streeper]

Bob,

Interesting. The US is the same but different. We don't have a formalized or widely shared named concept of anti-intellectualism but the current here is very strong. The closest we come to that theme is embodied in the epithets such as 'book-smart' or 'nerd'. Nerd isn't thought to be insulting so much these days because of the admiration of Silicon Valley types because of their vast money piles.

[BobL]

It's called "tall poppy syndrome" here in Oz.

Most Australians will claim "It's not success that Australians put down but over self promotion by successful people". This attitude helped make Oz a less class bound society than the UK where most of it's migrants came from pre WWII. You might notice this appearing on these forums from time to time. I have no trouble with that at all.

Cutting down the tall poopies was evident in the past especially in sporting situations, and military circumstances with lower ranks taking less put downs, and questioning orders, from big noting officers who acted superior for no good reason other than they were officers. The English officers in WW1 found this very difficult to handle.

I suspect the "over self promotion" aspect is less so these days especially now that Tattler type news outlets and social media in general feeds the trolls and the tendency is to "dig" or "make" up something to put the tall poppies down whether they are acting superior or not.

[rob streeper]

Yes, I've read about it. I didn't want to mention the term to avoid provoking the trolls. My experiences in the on-line and off-line woodworking communities give me the feeling that the USA is in worse shape than Australia is in that regard.

[ian]

Turns out this is what the mining companies and Govt like you think so they can blame "natural contamination", but it turns out this effect is quite small.

The lead isotopes in dust sampled around an exposed undisturbed lead ore body turns out to be mainly dominated by what's in the wider area local soils and rocks which is usually quite isotopically different to the lead in the ore so can be clear distinguished and apportioned. If the deposit is anywhere near a dry region, dust from hundreds or even thousands of km away can contribute in a major way to local dust.

The other factor is that exposed and weathered lead ore bodies (gossans) are quite tough and resistant to abrasion compared to many other surface rocks, and as ore outcrops represent only a small fraction of the area of exposed soil/rocks they don't contribute much to local dust even if wet they contribute is highly concentrated. It's only when the ore body is disturbed by mining and especially by smelting that large amounts of lead are dumped into the atmosphere that mined ore lead isotope signatures are picked up.

Here is an article that includes one of my former students in the author list.
https://research.jcu.edu.au/tropwater/publications/Mackey2013Identicationofenvironmentalleadsourcesandpathwaysinaminingandsmeltingtown.pdf

Xstrata Pty Ltd and Queensland Government agencies have disputed the industrial source of environmental Pb and have argued persistently that the elevated PbB of local children and Pbin the Mount Isa urban area are sourced predominantly from natural surface exposures of ore bodies. This line of argument has been maintained despite the fact that mining operations at Mount Isa have already been connected strongly to environmental contamination (Parry, 2000; Queensland EPA, 2008, Taylor and Hudson-Edwards, 2008; Munksgaard et al., 2010; Taylor et al.,2010, 2011; Mackay et al., 2011, Mackay and Taylor, 2013).
funny that.
From memory it was in the 1920s that the dust problem in Broken Hill was recognised to be so bad that a vegetation / re-vegetation effort commenced aimed at reducing environmental dust. A pretty significant initiative when you realise how scarce water was in the city.
I'm pretty sure that as late as the 1970s, lead exposure in BH was still regularly monitored -- unfortunately, the techniques of the day didn't permit an isotopic analysis.

[MAPLEMAN]

Australians tend to go the extra kilometre at putting anyone down that does better than them, whether its scientists, artists, entrepreneurs, sports people or politicians. It's even worse for home grown successful people or inventions who often have to go overseas to get the recognition they deserve.

The following lists some famous and less well known australian inventions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Australian_inventions
How many of these were/are ever made here in Australia and how many have ended up being made overseas.
How many of us have ever heard of one of our most prolific inventor, David Unaipon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Unaipon) - he's even on our $50 note.Absolutely correct...MM

[BobL]

funny that.
From memory it was in the 1920s that the dust problem in Broken Hill was recognised to be so bad that a vegetation / re-vegetation effort commenced aimed at reducing environmental dust. A pretty significant initiative when you realise how scarce water was in the city.
I'm pretty sure that as late as the 1970s, lead exposure in BH was still regularly monitored -- unfortunately, the techniques of the day didn't permit an isotopic analysis.

Isotopic techniques were developed by nuclear scientists in the 1960's that could just do this work. A Caltech scientist (Claire patterson) who was also the first scientist to use lead and U isotopes to accurately date the age of formation of the earth used these methods and developed many of his own to determine that lead in petrol was slowly poisoning us and was instrumental in push authorities in the US to remove the lead from petrol. The problem was not the isotope measurements themselves but determining the extent of contamination of samples. Lead from petrol had by then contaminated labs and lab equipment and also reagents. It took about a decade for Patterson to build a clean lab, develop the clean lab procedures and to purify the reagents so he could establish the true natural back ground using ice cores and other environmental reservoirs.

The rest of the world took another decade or so to catch up on these methods with scientists from all over the world undertaking sabbaticals at Caltech to learn the methods. One of my PhD supervisors started doing this sort of work from the late 70's and spent a year at Caltech in 1983. He had started a petrol archive whereby whenever he filled up his tank he also collected 50mL of petrol direct from the servo pump into specially cleaned test tubes - the archive ran from 1978 until my PhD supervisor died in in 2009. Whenever he was away I often collected petrol samples for him and sometimes did the analyses. I also developed a simpler method for extracting the lead from the petrol using small disposable plastic syringes which had to be cleaned in purified acids. We refurbished an old photo dark room into our first tiny clean lab in 1978. It was only about about 5 sqm in area so it was very cramped. I designed and built our first true clean lab in 1985. This one was ~18 sqm and we called it the Femtolab because for the first time we achieved water with 720 femtogram/g lead concentration (0.00000072 ug/g). I used the lab for meteorite residue research but others used it for lead research. In 2000 we built a 400 sqm ultra clean lab and it's still running today although no one is doing any lead work in it.

Interestingly I know someone who is a farmer and also a FIFO worker on a lead mine here in WA. He drives a water truck that helps keep dust levels down around the mine site and ore loading facility. Like all workers on the men site he has a blood lead check once a month and has always been well below the accepted level. The highest his lead blood level has been was still below the accepted level but was when he returned from extended leave during which he mainly worked on his farm. It appears that farm work put more lead into his blood than working on the lead mine does. During his time off he did spend quite a bit of time fertilising so this could have been the source. Some fertilisers which add trace metals do have slightly elevated lead levels so this is something to watch out for. Some fertilisers from third world countries can have quite high lead levels.

[rob streeper]

Very interesting paper on the history of leaded gasoline. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=8&ved=0ahUKEwjLn_7SrerYAhUPcq0KHZgZDUQQFghQMAc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.columbia.edu%2Fitc%2Fsipa%2Fenvp%2Flouchouarn%2Fcourses%2Fenv-chem%2FPb-Rise%26Fall(Nriagu1990).pdf&usg=AOvVaw20RBp19zbIYIy_kV-XkWrR