No man is prophet in his own country?

[KnifeGrinders]

Can't complain of the volume of orders, but what baffles is that most of them have come from New Zealand, not Australia, despite free delivery within greater Sydney.

When you are serious about getting a sharp edge - our sharpness tester is your #1 instrument.
Keep honing while the sharpness reading keeps improving, and stop when the reading has stopped changing.
At this point, should you continue honing - you will lose the edge sharpness you've just achieved.
At this point the right thing to do is either to change to a finer hone, or just enjoy the best attainable sharpness you've already got.
That simple.

BESS-calibrated sharpness tester tells you the edge apex width without the need for SEM - it acts as your home scanning electron microscope.
The reading of 100 BESS = 1 micron edge apex, 50 BESS = 0.5 micron edge, etc

Want your edge to shave - hone it to under 150 BESS, but want it to split a hair - change to a finer hone at 110-100 BESS and keep honing to 70-50 BESS.
No guesswork anymore - but a clear indicator by the BESS score what to do next.

You hold a blunt blade asking yourself with what grit to start sharpening - a BESS score of over 600 tells you need to set the edge on #220-400, but if the reading on your tester is 400-500 BESS, you are good to start sharpening on #1000 and prolong the life span of this blade by grinding away less steel.

BONUS for everyone who orders today - free extra test media canister for 300 measurements.
Order now >> (http://knifegrinders.com.au/11Shop.htm)


http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/PT50B.jpg

[rob streeper]

Interested but need to see some data first. Waiting in anticipation...

[KnifeGrinders]

Though pictured with a knife, the BESS edge sharpness tester works with woodworker's blades just as fine.
We only distribute it in Australia and New Zealand, it is manufactured in the US by Edge On Up.
Rob, as you are in the US you will get better price from the Edge On Up of course - freight is a pain for us downunder.

More info is here: BESS Certified Edge Sharpness Tester (http://knifegrinders.com.au/11Shop_BESS.htm)

[rob streeper]

I'm looking at their website. Lot's of claims but no data, I really am sold on data.

From the look of this page: Purchase (http://www.edgeonup.com/Purchase.html) I can get away with a test fixture and some of their test medium because I already have a 0.05 gm. resolution top loading balance.

Can you provide any data?

[KnifeGrinders]

I probably didn't read your question right.
Are you are after the research data the instrument concept was built on?
I know that Mike Brubacher had carried out a study together with the Arizona State University SEM lab, and established relationship between his instruments reading and the edge apex width; based on these data the BESS scale was developed. Understandably, the research data will hardly ever become available online.

I have some numbers, but obviously Mike will tell you better - you can cetainly email him at Edge On Up
But I would start from the data available at the BESS forum www.bessex.com (http://www.bessex.com)

[BobL]

I'm not concerned with the same level of sharpness like some other folks on these forums but if I was to invest in one these, the sort of data I would find useful is;

1) What is the single point reproducibility of the system at varying degrees of sharpness? Eg std deviations of repeat tests on the same point on a blade at various sharpness levels?
2) how many points along a blade are needed to adequately test sharpness. I can't imagine one or two points especially on longer blades being sufficient?
3) How many times during a sharpening process is testing recommended?
4) Is it possible once you have a successful sharpening protocol to not test at all, and still achieve optimum sharpness?

[EDIT] I had a quick look at some of the vids - worth a look if you are into that level of sharpening.

[rob streeper]

Sounds right. If you want to sell the device I'd suggest posting a technical description along with some data showing how well it works. I've looked at what is available on the company website and it really doesn't help me understand anything about the method. Since this is a relative measure the reproducibility of the measurements using some standards would be very helpful.

WWF members who're interested making and using tools are intensely interested in sharpness. Questions such as 'How sharp is sharp?" and "Which method produces the sharpest edge?" are often discussed here.

A significant proportion of users of WWF are very technically minded and a well designed study of the usefulness of this instrumentation would attract a lot of interest.

[rob streeper]

Bob put's it nicely. I had a feeling he was composing as I was typing.

[rob streeper]

Here I am, deep in my cup and ready to bite but Amazon lists the test media as "Out of stock".

[KnifeGrinders]

The KN100 Operating Manual is especially rich in research and theory data, it is not about the KN100 only - available at the Edge On Up library www.edgeonup.com/Library.html (http://www.edgeonup.com/Library.html)

The questions you've brought up are among discussed by technically-minded woodturners and sharpeners at the BESS forum www.bessex.com (http://www.bessex.com/)
You don't really expect me to summarize that forum contents here, do you?

[rob streeper]

Just scrolled through the KN100 download, no data but a lot of discussion.

It would be nice, and would likely help your sales, if you or edgeonup produced a white paper detailing some testing results.

[KnifeGrinders]

You are right, of course, about the "white paper".
I will check with Mike what he can share.
He frequents the BESS forum as well, and can be chat to directly.

[rob streeper]

Here's the patent. https://www.google.com/patents/US20160069785
I'm somewhat surprised that it was granted as the preferred embodiment is pretty vague in that it doesn't teach the method of the invention insofar as the technical description of the fluorocarbon coated/treated monofilament test material.


Several variations of common and inexpensive test lines or filimaments were analyzed, explored and tested. Samples of cotton and other fabric thread yielded non-repeatable results. Generally, thread is a possible alternative media, but has been found to not be as good as monofilament or fluorocarbon infused monofilament fiber. Thus thread is not a preferred test media. It is also contemplated by the inventor that the sharpness testing system may be a system where a monofilament fiber is utilized as test media and the filament fiber may consist of some percentage of the filament fiber being fluorocarbon.
Monofilament fibers are viable test media. Nylon monofilament fiber returned consistent test results. Fluorocarbon coated monofilament lines are an improvement over standard nylon monofilament fibers. Continuously infused or impregnated fluorocarbon lines perform the best, and are a second preferred test media, with respect to test repeatability and breadth of scale. The most consistent results of sharpness testing are obtained using continuously infused or impregnated fluorocarbon monofilament line as the test fiber or test media.

[KnifeGrinders]

I've checked the other most renown sharpness tester CATRA website, but cannot see anything on tolerance tests or detailed technical info
www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/st.htm (http://www.catra.org/pages/products/kniveslevel1/st.htm)

This doesn't excuse neither them nor us, of course, but maybe this is a common business practice of what to make available in the public domain?
Other sharpness testers around, like CATRA's, cost tens of thousands of dollars, and only Mike Brubacher let me and hundreds of hobbyist and professional sharpeners around the world have a reliable tester at their homes.

Technically, sharpness is determined by the edge width and radius at its apex.
Many are still under impression that it could only be measured by a scanning electron microscope or at least a metallurgical microscope and some professional with a degree. Not after Mike Brubacher gave us his BESS calibrated edge sharpness tester. Score on this tester can be interpreted into the edge apex width in microns.

It is available right here in Australia, can be yours for a handful of peanuts and can be operated even by a kid, as some of you might have seen at the last Sydney Knife Show where my 10-year-old son was taking sharpness measurements when we adults were all busy with customers - the kid on the photo

http://knifegrinders.com.au/photos/SKS2017.JPG

[KnifeGrinders]

Happy to announce that as we chat, another PT50 sharpness tester has just gone to an Australian home - thank you, James at Newcastle!
James, you at a stretched arm's reach to a realm of sharp edge discoveries.

[KnifeGrinders]

I'm not concerned with the same level of sharpness like some other folks on these forums but if I was to invest in one these, the sort of data I would find useful is;

1) What is the single point reproducibility of the system at varying degrees of sharpness? Eg std deviations of repeat tests on the same point on a blade at various sharpness levels?
2) how many points along a blade are needed to adequately test sharpness. I can't imagine one or two points especially on longer blades being sufficient?
3) How many times during a sharpening process is testing recommended?
4) Is it possible once you have a successful sharpening protocol to not test at all, and still achieve optimum sharpness?

[EDIT] I had a quick look at some of the vids - worth a look if you are into that level of sharpening.

This sharpness tester is spot sampling.
Though a BESS calibrated edge sharpness tester is a great tool to determine the degree of sharpness, by itself it is not sufficient to verify quality of the whole edge as it samples only one point on the edge, even when you take a couple of measurements at its different portions.

Measuring sharpness at the same spot of the edge is all needed for guiding your sharpening session in the right direction.

The professional edge sharpness tester PT50B has 5 BESS of resolution (+/- 0.05 micron edge apex width).
The industrial edge sharpness tester PT50A has 1 BESS of resolution (+/- 0.01 micron edge apex width).

5 BESS of resolution is more than adequate for all the sharpening discoveries and perfecting your sharpening process.
(But for knives in my own collection I use the PT50A :rolleyes: )

"3) How many times during a sharpening process is testing recommended?"

We are talking here about refining a deburred edge, obviously.
Before I got my first PT50, I used to overhone & overstrop the edge past that sweet point of the maximum sharpness.

When I am sharpening in a "study mode", trying a new abrasive or working on changes to the sharpening routine, I may test as often as after every 1-2 passes to catch the tendency and breaking points.
Usually on abrasives down to 3 micron grain I test after every 2-3 passes.
Further in the para-micron and submicron range, after every 1-2 passes.
It depends not only on the abrasive grain size, but also whether it is a paper wheel, a rock-hard felt wheel, a leather wheel, or a strop - we have sets of them with various grits abrasives.

"4) Is it possible once you have a successful sharpening protocol to not test at all, and still achieve optimum sharpness?"
Yes.
After a sharpening protocol has been established and proved, I pass it to my team to follow, and we measure sharpness just twice - before and after sharpening.
We have a BESS Universal licensee obligation to give customers true and accurate sharpness scores

http://knifegrinders.com.au/Home/BESSslip.png

[rob streeper]

Another useful and potentially lucrative document to produce would be a compendium of your various sharpening protocols along with your instrumental data.

How do the various sharpness measurement results correlate with real world utility? For instance, a very sharp knife blade for a machine may be useless in practice if it isn't used to cut material with physical properties similar to the test material used with the instrument.

How does the measured sharpness vary with grind angle, all else held constant?

Can the instrument reliably and repeatably assess edge retention?

[KnifeGrinders]

Can you help me make a decision with a task we see daily?

Suppose you have set edge on 2 blades, and going to deburr and hone them:
one scores 160 BESS, i.e. has about 1.5 micron edge apex, scraping shaving your forearm;
the other scores 110 BESS i.e. has near 1 micron edge, smooth shaves with, but not against the hair grain.

Suppose you have the same grit honing compound on the wheels we use:
a Tormek leather wheel, a paper wheel, and a flint-hard felt wheel.
On which wheel will you hone which blade?

Tell me your best answer, and I will tell you what our protocol is based on the the sharpness tester readings.

[rob streeper]

I don't work with razors, nor do I sharpen them. I polish carving chisels using the Tormek leather profile wheel. I have heard it suggested that knives are best polished on hard paper wheels. I've never heard of flint hard felt.

[KnifeGrinders]

Well, I knew the same little in the beginning.
These may well be chisels or knives, doesn't matter.
Suppose number one is not shaving at all, just scraping - but you aim to get the both blades razor sharp.
Don't want to take a guess, from your experience and what you know about sharpening?
Anyone?

[rob streeper]

Your challenge raises a number of points that have been discussed at great length on this forum in various threads.

At this point, nobody has offered an answer for a whole variety of questions about the concepts of sharpness in a quantitative way including:

1) How sharp is sharp enough?

2) Is optimal sharpness for one use optimal for other uses?

3) How is sharpness measured?

4) What is the trade off between sharpness and durability for any particular application?

5) How is optimal sharpness attained?

6) How do the physical properties of the material constituting the sharpened tool influence real world performance?

Unfortunately no one has offered anything other than a miasma of personal experience and opinion in answer to any of these questions.

Can you show us how the instrument on offer is really anything more than a way of testing how good edges are at cutting fishing line?

[KnifeGrinders]

Half of your questions have been put too broad to answer, and some confuse sharpness and cutting performance.
There is no trade off between sharpness and durability for any application, you might have meant the edge angle - any can be made equally sharp.
Blade geometry, angle and profile (other than radius at the very edge apex) have no bearing on BESS scores as such.

My "challenge" can be solved with common sense and everyday sharpening experience everyone on this forum surely has.

As to yours "Can you show us how the instrument on offer is really anything more than a way of testing how good edges are at cutting fishing line?" - this is exactly what this thread is all about.
Please keep posting

[rob streeper]

Half of your questions have been put too broad to answer.

Okay, so as to the other half?


There is no trade off between sharpness and durability for any application, you might have meant the edge angle - any can be made equally sharp.

Interesting assertion.


My "challenge" can be solved with common sense and everyday sharpening experience everyone on this forum surely has.

If the answer is truly common sense why the insult? "Well, I knew the same little in the beginning."

[KnifeGrinders]

No insult was meant, mate - I meant your words on not knowing paper and felt wheels - I knew the same little about them in the beginning.

When I shaped my sharpening hobby into a business, I had to move from benchstones and strops to powered wheels, and from guessing to quality control tools like the BESS sharpness tester, microscope and others.

Yet that task we are talking now about can be solved with common sense, but the solution can be proved with instruments only.
And a sharpness tester helps to better sharpening, for yourself or businesses.

Honestly, this thread is not as much about selling the instrument - here I share my experience with the instrument I found useful.
I have limited experience with sharpening your tools, but thought you guys might benefit as well, as hundreds of woodworkers who already use this sharpness tester can't be wrong.

[rob streeper]

The woodworking community typically uses diamond plates, stones of various kinds +/- strops and or devices like the Tormek. As I mentioned, I'm not interested in knives or razors though there are some users here who are. My feeling is that they are more likely to be familiar with the paper and felt wheels. If these wheels are truly useful for woodworking tool sharpening tell us how and show us some examples.

You're selling the product and I want to know more. Unfortunately you've not answered my interest.

[rob streeper]

No insult was meant, mate - I meant your words on not knowing paper and felt wheels - I knew the same little about them in the beginning.

When I shaped my sharpening hobby into a business, I had to move from benchstones and strops to powered wheels, and from guessing to quality control tools like the BESS sharpness tester, microscope and others.

Yet that task we are talking now about can be solved with common sense, but the solution can be proved with instruments only.
And a sharpness tester helps to better sharpening, for yourself or businesses.

Honestly, this thread is not as much about selling the instrument - here I share my experience with the tool I found useful.

I'm all for instrumental analysis.

This is a screenshot of the data page of a study I've been doing of the hardness of saw blades. This is about 1/8th of the full page (62 X 626). Unfortunately it's so big now (1.38MB) that I can't practically post it in its entirety. Nonetheless I have posted the results of my work.


422010


Show us some of your data.

[KnifeGrinders]

I recognise your doubts, and remember mine before I bought the tester for myself.
Australians are in a better position, thanks to a hire option we offer - no such thing in the US.
You can hire the BESS sharpness tester from us for a cost of a pack of Marlboro, play with it for a month, and either return or keep...

[rob streeper]

At first I didn't so much doubt but truly wanted to know more about the instrument. Now, in the face of your resistance to producing data, I doubt.

[Lappa]

Interesting discussion but shouldn’t the first post have been placed in the Market place as it was obviously a sales pitch?. Even the sold to “James in Newcastle” fits that bill.
I have no problems with discussions on sharpening techniques but please Knifegrinder, stop the sales pitch or put it in the appropriate area.

[KnifeGrinders]

Lappa, the little margin I have from selling these instrumets isn't even worth the label "marketing" - some beer money, maybe.
I started using this sharpness tester the next year it was invented, when no one knew much about it, and quickly became the BESS convert. Nowadays it is used all over the places, but Australia - I do recommend it, whatever my recommendation is worth.
Basically, I've said all I wanted and don't mind this thread to be locked or moved or what is appropriate.
Heading for my workshop now...

[rob streeper]

I had a look through the Bessex forum that Knifegrinder posted above and the closest I see to technical evaluations are these very superficial threads.

Victorinox sharpening experiment (http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=40)

Lasting Cut 8" Chef's Knife (http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=55)

Duplicating the Lasting Cut Chef's Knife Edge (http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=68)

Blade Angle Finder (http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=109)

Work Sharp Cullinary (http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=152)

I'd never heard of removing burrs from knives by rubbing on blue jeans.

[KnifeGrinders]

For those who may be interested,

Our study on traditional sharpness tests coupled with the edge apex width in microns and BESS score is coming in the November issue of the Australian Knife Magazine.
The Australian Knife Magazine is available via subscription at www.isubscribe.com.au (https://www.isubscribe.com.au/Australian-Knife-Magazine-Subscription.cfm?UniqueId=j6shc5m1rg000hm70242y&affid=771)
Individual issues of the AKM can also be bought through eBay.

Our full-scale study on honing knives on paper wheels is scheduled for publishing in the December issue of the US Sharpener’s Report (https://sharpeners-report.com/).
The findings we made in that study using Mike Brubacher’s sharpness testers coincide with Tormek engineers approach to honing chisels on leather wheel.

[BobL]

The Australian Knife Magazine is available via subscription at www.isubscribe.com.au (https://www.isubscribe.com.au/Australian-Knife-Magazine-Subscription.cfm?UniqueId=j6shc5m1rg000hm70242y&affid=771)

Our full-scale study on honing knives on paper wheels is scheduled for publishing in the December issue of the US Sharpener’s Report (https://sharpeners-report.com/).

Interested yes, but not at $32 for the AKM subscription, and US$26 for the USSR.

[FenceFurniture]

This is nothing but a Sales thread, and has been reported as such.

[rob streeper]

I did too.

[FenceFurniture]

Lappa, the little margin I have from selling these instrumets isn't even worth the label "marketing" - some beer money, maybe.Doesn't matter if you are selling at a loss...it's still inappropriate marketing.


You can hire the BESS sharpness tester from us for a cost of a pack of Marlboro, play with it for a month, and either return or keep...
It is available right here in Australia, can be yours for a handful of peanuts $250 is a Handful of peanuts? A packet of Marlies costs $40?

Yer full of it!

[elanjacobs]

I'm with the others. We want data. So far all I've seen here is anecdotal evidence (at best) and marketing hype.

This forum might cater to hobbyists, but there are many people here with decades of experience across a wide variety of industries who see straight through the buzz words.

[KnifeGrinders]

Those calls for "data" honestly baffle me.
The instrument gives you an edge sharpness score, which is a number on an international BESS scale.
It is like asking for a data behind a Rockwell hardness number - it is just a number on an agreed scale, HRC scale or other.

[elanjacobs]

No, we're asking for data on the instrument; tolerances, repeatability, etc

[KnifeGrinders]

The professional edge sharpness tester PT50B has +/- 5 resolution on the BESS scale (+/- 0.05 micron edge apex width).
The industrial edge sharpness tester PT50A has 1 BESS of resolution (+/- 0.01 micron edge apex width).

5 BESS of resolution is more than adequate for all the sharpening discoveries and perfecting your sharpening process.
Learning is simple: keep testing an edge at the same spot till the BESS score repeats itself within +/- 5, which is the instrument resolution - took me about a dozen measurements.

Off to my workshop now, please ask if anything unclear, will be back online after 8PM

[doug3030]

Ok so if I order one for $250, one of two outcomes is possible:

1. it works and it helps me sharpen my blades, or
2. it doesn't work and it results in a sharper decision-making process next time.

Either way something gets sharper.

Cheers

Doug

[rob streeper]

I've started doing some experiments with this technology. At the time this discussion began I bought the ATF10 aluminum test fixture on Amazon.
The BESS DoubleX Test Medium was, and still is, out of stock

423070


so I made some educated guesses and bought some substitute media. Results so far indicate that the basic idea works. I'm preparing a separate thread detailing my work.

P.S., I started the thread, look here: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f127/experiments-bess-system-217638#post2052913