Getting a better Energy deal - WHAT A JOKE! [Archive]

FenceFurniture

5th October 2017, 06:14 PM

I have been with AGL for Gas & Elec for some years. After the July 1 price skyrocket I decided to look into things. AGL had been giving me a paltry 6% off Elec and 2% off Gas. We are never late - in fact the account is usually still in credit AFTER the bill has been presented to us, because I pay in advance every fortnight.

I wrote a spreadsheet so that I could compare some different suppliers rates. This is a bit tricky because they all calculate things differently, with different rates and thresholds. Some discount usage AND daily supply and most just discount usage. Then of course the rates all vary with postcodes and so it goes on. It is an absolute minefield, and if you are not bent to be good with detail and numbers then you will undoubtedly be ripped off.

The Energy Companies are playing us for mugs, pure and simple.

I have to say that you REALLY need to be on your game to get the best deal. I am 100% certain that there are many older people being absolutely gouged by these miserable mongrels. It is unconscionable.

To be frank, I believe that the Energy companies have now reached the heady depths of the banks, and may indeed be acting in an even worse manner.

The sequence of events that has unfolded is truly astonishing. So much so that I ended up writing to my two local Members (State & Fed), a Senator, the Prime Minister, and the head of AGL Marketing. Bloody AGL wrote back apologising for "any inconvenience caused". Boy did they get a hot response to that. "Incon-bloody-venience? Is that what you think 30 or more hours of my time wasted is????"

I would estimate that there have been in excess of 40 phone calls, and so far this has taken up around 35-40 hours of my time, over the last 6 weeks. I wish I had kept diary notes from the start, but one does not expect such a fiasco to unfold. Especially when one is reassured every step of the way how EASY this is going to be. John Elliot response to that!

When you decide to leave a retailer, because another offers you a better deal, the victor sends the vanquished a "notice to quit" if you like - you know "nyaa nyaa we have the poor bastard now, so cease and desist". When that happens the Vanquished have a Retention Team that have better discounts than the Sales Team can offer. They have to call you within the 10 day cooling off period for the Victor, and sweet-talk you into staying with these better rates.

In my case, AGL were the Vanquished, and Origin were the Victors. After my initial call to AGL my Gas discount went from 2% to 16%, and then in a subsequent phone call it magically became 20% (without saying anything), and Elec went from 6% to 24%.

Now I happened to know that they can do better than that, through a friend who went through the same process. He said that the Retention team called him and offered him 25% off Gas and 32% off elec.

So I told AGL that I knew they could do better. "Sorry, can't give you that until you actually leave." SO I have to waste Origin's time and effort, oh, and considerable hours of my own.

Well what a sorry bloody chain of events that started. I am now 4 levels of management (AGL) up from the usual call centre. Just cockup after cockup after cockup, and they are still happening. Got the latest call from AGL this arvo, after someone read my email. The upshot of that was that my Gas was still going to Origin, and that I had until close of business today to stop it. Earlier in this call I said "I know this call with you is not the last call I will have to make". She said she thought it actually would be. No more than 5 minutes later she was proved wrong (when it surfaced that the Gas was still going to Origin).

We agreed that I would call Origin to stop the transfer, and that she would call me back in 30 minutes or so.

So I rang Origin and explained to the chap what was going on, and did Origin have a retention dept? Yes. Ok why don't you call them, and tell them they need to talk to me because right now I'm ready to throttle AGL. OK.

Finish up I got a better deal on the Gas & Elec than what Origin originally tempted me away with. This deal was marginally cheaper than AGL's best offer on Elec, and marginally more on Gas so I have now made a final decision to make the move to Origin for both.

When the AGL "4 levels up" lady rang back to see how I went she sounded quite disappointed that I had done exactly the opposite of what I had set out to do (cancel the move to Origin with just hours to spare). I think the "4 levels up" people expect to always be successful.

TOUGH LUCK! :((:~:((

She knew she didn't have leg to stand on though.

FenceFurniture

5th October 2017, 06:15 PM

A very very brief overview of events:
Electricity:
AGL improved my rates
Not good enough so I get Origin to take over
AGL Retention offers the rates I knew they could, so I stay with AGL
Oops, AGL were too slow with that so the Elec is still actually going to Origin.
AGL close my Elec account, which was still $100 in credit after billing. $100 moved to Gas account.
AGL to organise getting the Elec back in January next year - I AM ASSURED IT WILL BE EASY
Rang Origin, spoke to their retention team, got even better rates
Bugger it, I'm going to stay with Origin

Gas:
AGL improved my rates
Not good enough so I get Origin to take over
AGL Retention offers the rates I knew they could, so I stay with AGL
Oops, some kind of giant cockup discovered today, so the Gas is still actually going to Origin in a week or so.
Rang Origin, spoke to their retention team, got even better rates
Bugger it, I'm going to stay with Origin

FenceFurniture

5th October 2017, 06:17 PM

This is the email that I sent.

TO THE PERSON THAT READS THIS:Make sure Michael Briggs (AGL marketing Manager) gets this email - he needs to know what a fiasco he is presiding over, and how much time & money it is costing AGL, and the rest of the country. All for nil result, I might add.

Mr Briggs

I am currently going through the extraordinarily painful experience of getting a better energy deal (Gas & Elec) from AGL. The facts are as follows:

I have been with AGL for many years and was getting a paltry 6% discount on Elec, and an even worse 2% on Gas, both from AGL.
I spent many hours researching all the various suppliers, created a sophisticated spreadsheet to compare everything. This research involved numerous phone calls to the various energy suppliers, as well as about 10 hours of internet research.
On 23rd August I rang AGL to see what they could do, and was immediately offered 25% of Elec and 16% off Gas. I said to that person that I knew they can do better than that - and so can other energy cos - as I have a friend who gets from AGL 32% & 25%, respectively. This was about the third time I had called AGLon this subject, for various reasons.
I was told that I actually have to leave AGL to get those rates. HOW RIDICULOUS! "Ok, I'm going".
I had cause to ring AGL again to say that I was definitely leaving to go to Origin, so what can AGL do? "Nothing", but I was told that my gas discount was in fact 20%, not 16% as I had been advised verbally and by email.
So then I have to ring Origin to get the move across to them happening.
This involved a further 4 phone calls to them because there was a problem with my gas meter not being on the Jemena database. Origin told me that they had to cancel the gas transfer.
So then I had to make 3 phonecalls to Jemena to get the meter sorted out (the gas has always been connected here, and is currently being used - just an administrative cockup - something I am even more familiar with now!
Then "Josh" from Jemena had to drive from Sydney to Katoomba - a 3 hour round trip - just to read my meter - he had no other business up here.
The next week Josh was back here again to read the meter - I have no idea why. Probably because Origin had requested a new meter reading because now they had the authority to take over the gas account. At least he had other business in the area this time.
I had to ring Origin again to make sure of what was happening with my accounts. I was told that everything was now ok to transfer to them.
All this time I had been expecting the AGL Retention Team to call me and make me the offer that I knew they could have made some weeks beforehand - if MANAGEMENT WAS EVEN HALF AS SMART AS THEY THINK THEY ARE!
As time was getting away, and I had not heard from AGL I decided that I had better go to Centrelink to cancel my two payments to AGL. I did not want to be in a position where I had to get money back - I can only imagine what a mess AGL would make of that. Total time for this was 85 minutes.
Finally, on Saturday 23rd September "Tony" from AGL Retention called me to make the 32% & 25% discount offer to me. I accepted these offers. I was assured that everything would go smoothly and that I would not notice any differences or changes, except for the discounts applied. How vastly wrong that turned out to be.....
On Monday last, 2nd October, I received an email from Origin to say that my electricity account was now with them. WHAT?
I then had to ring AGL to find out what the hell was going on. After waiting my time in YET ANOTHER AGL PHONE QUEUE the call centre person said I would have to speak to Dispute Resolutions, so I go back onto a queue. Disputes said I would have to speak to Management as this had been going on for so long. I go back into the queue again. I have had a tooth extracted a couple of days previous to this, and have discovered another one is loose, so I AM IN NO MOOD FOR THIS! Sorting out other people's cockups is never good, but particularly not at the moment.
Finally I get the doubtful pleasure of speaking to "Cam" from AGL "management". I do not know what the criteria is to be a manager, but Cam is hopeless and with the personality of a goldfish. He offered not a word of apology, and presented an attitude of "look, this is how it is - if you want me to fix it then say so". I was told by Cam that I would have to go to Origin for one billing cycle of electricity, and then I would be back at AGL. I told Cam what I thought of his performance - very clearly. I am quite certain that this is my second encounter with Cam in recent times.
I have received an email this morning confirming that I will be back at AGL for Elec from 28/1/2018.

I am extremely confident that this will not be the end of this ridiculous stream of cockups. This could have all been avoided if your team was able to offer me the 32% & 25% discounts that I told them I knew about, in the very first place.

If you want confirmation of what I have said, then check the phone call recordings - that's what they're for - and there sure is plenty to choose from in recent weeks.
You will find that I am usually calm, reasonable, rational and courteous, although yesterday I finally took a bit of a holiday from that.

AGL's absurd Management policies have wasted the following:

about 25-30 hours of my time, involving some 30 or more phone calls to various energy suppliers. Most of those calls were to AGL, and second most were to Origin.
about 2-4 hours of Origin's time in taking over an account that they then lost, retrieved, and lost again.
about 5-6 hours of Jemena's time, including a ridiculous trip from Sydney to here just to read a meter.
Now I know AGL doesn't care less about wasting all of the above - that's very obvious, BUT think selfishly....
about 4-5 hours (probably more) of AGL's time has also been spent on achieving ABSOLUTELY NOTHING! At the end of the day(sssss) there is absolutely no change - I am still with AGL, just getting a fairer price from the previous gouging.
So this has cost AGL I suppose in excess of $120 in wages FOR NOTHING.
It has cost Jemena probably $150 or more FOR NOTHING
It has cost Origin probably $80-100 FOR NOTHING
If I put $15 per hour on my time, then a total cost for this fiasco, for all concerned, would be around $750-900. THAT'S FOR ONE CUSTOMER!!

WAKE UP AND STOP WASTING THE COUNTRY'S HUMAN RESOURCES!
"Everyone else is doing the same" is not an excuse!

While I'm about it, get rid of that stupid talking head that constantly yaps at us when we are on hold (which is for a VERY long time). Every 10 seconds he tells us how wonderful AGL is - and you know what? I AM NOT CONVINCED - nor is anyone else! Just play some music, and forget the self congratulations - it's tedious, tiresome, and irritating, or do you not understand this? It's actually self-sabotage.

No doubt I will not get a response - that would take some bottle. I will be sending this story to my local members, and to the Prime Minister - I know he has a soft spot for an AGL story.

A very frustrated and cranky

FenceFurniture

ajw

5th October 2017, 06:35 PM

I went through the same thing. Threatened to leave, got a slightly better rate. Then actually left, and got the retention team who offered a reasonable discount. Took several hours, but saved hundreds of dollars. It's absolutely ridiculous. I don't know why we need "retailers" of electricity. The so-called competition only works for those with the stamina to go through the process. I know of people who are paying full rate, because they simply don't have the capacity to "work the system".

My contract expires in November, so I'm gearing up for the same stupid waste of time again. I'm hoping to be a bit quicker about it this time though. I'll switch to an alternative retailer up front, and then deal with the retention team. This will cut out some of the steps.

I share your frustration.

ajw

tonzeyd

5th October 2017, 06:44 PM

atleast you guys have a choice, in WA its Synergy for your Electricity. I hear rumours that this will change soon... I eagerly await the day that happens.

We have a few options for gas but its much of a muchness between the providers

Chris Parks

5th October 2017, 07:53 PM

Brett, wind up Fairfax and the SMH, you have all the facts so it should be easy for them to write the piece. They also do a comment for publication thing that might work. I got 20% on electricity with a tiered discount rate the last time we changed but when the last changes came through I noticed they had changed the tier arrangement removing and blending two of them so I gave them the finger and I am installing solar at the moment. Before it gets commissioned I am going to change supplier and see if I can screw them down further.

Simplicity

5th October 2017, 07:57 PM

Brett,
You a gifted with a very markable skill.

You could have all the work you want.
At a very reasonable rate I'm sure.

Cheers Matt

FenceFurniture

5th October 2017, 08:01 PM

Uncle Al

5th October 2017, 08:29 PM

A very interesting process you have been through Brett. About 4 years ago I embarked on a quest to reduce electricity prices, (no gas in my area) receiving considerable price reductions for my efforts from Origin Energy, whom I had been with ever since buying the property about 38 years ago.
About 2 - 1/2 years ago, I had a solar electricity system installed, which created another round of price investigation, especially with the rates offered for the feed-in tariff.

In researching the various offers on the net, it became obvious that I could obtain better pricing.
Ordinarily, one would contact the selected new supplier and let them do all the necessary changes, but I got a touch curious, and rang Origin and asked the question - "Am I in a current contract with you?" (Answer was 'No'), and then "What do I have to do when I change to another provider?"

Well, didn't that start a bit of a chain reaction! The lass offered to match the new providers offer, which I declined, as the new provider had been pro-active with their pricing. No sense accepting the same pricing as their opposition, they have to have a better offer to make it worthwhile. Cutting a long story short, I was contacted by Origin's retention people, and ended up with a considerably better offer than anything offered on line.

I know I have enjoyed very good rates up until the latest price jump that occurred a couple of months ago, and it is now time to do some more investigation. One bonus has been the doubling of the feed-in tariff in the last couple of months, but a full survey of offers as Brett has done is now a necessity.

Going off grid and relying on battery back-up isn't cost effective at the moment, but may become viable in a few years time.

If you don't ask, you will not get any reductions, regardless who you are with!

Alan...

Mr Brush

5th October 2017, 08:40 PM

Much the same story here. Contract coming up for renewal, so shopped around for better prices. Got substantially better discounts from a number of other players, then contacted AGL to see if they would match these to retain my business. Was told that their current (uncompetitive) offer was the best they could do, and that they weren't interested in discussing this further. Duly changed suppliers, then for the following 3 months received multiple calls from AGL (to the point of becoming a nuisance) offering discount inducements to go back to them.

I only managed to stop them calling by speaking to a supervisor, telling her in terms too rude to repeat here just what a stupid business model they had, and that I wouldn't go back to AGL if they were the last supplier left on earth.

Happily let your customers go, then run around like crazy trying to get them back??? Who are these idiots?

FenceFurniture

5th October 2017, 08:41 PM

Cutting a long story short, I was contacted by Origin's retention people, and ended up with a considerably better offer than anything offered on line.I know, and in my opinion, this is dishonest BS. In other words "we'll gouge you for everything we can, until you can prove otherwise - then we'll listen to you and give you better rates". Brand loyalty. Pffffft!

Going off grid and relying on battery back-up isn't cost effective at the moment, but may become viable in a few years time.Yep. Two more years to get the tech right, another 1½-2 years for the poor sucker early adopters to pay for the R&D, and we should be ready to rock.

FenceFurniture

5th October 2017, 08:43 PM

.... telling her in terms too rude to repeat hereOhhhh, go on....don't be chicken.

Enfield Guy

5th October 2017, 09:22 PM

The power business is a market based thing. The price fluctuates from minute to minute. It is my very strong view that the general public should automatically receive the best price available within that market without having to negotiate that price. We, as individuals have little power or opportunities to negotiate.These are essential services.

Chris Parks

6th October 2017, 12:47 AM

Chris you may find that Origin is the best deal, wrt FITs. It is a combination of what you pay and what you get, as you know, and my research showed Origin had the best all round deal with Solar. You may have to start with Origin, pretend you are leaving, and stay with Origin. When I say "pretend" you actually have to activate the leaving process. It's bloody ridiculous the amount of time they all waste.

How many panels are you putting up?

We are putting up 28 x 290 watt Samsung panels for a start but one thing I am doing is getting full data logging to see what happens as decisions can't be made without data. The ideal is not to feed in anything but that ain't gonna happen as supply and demand within the house goes up and down. I looked at this some years ago and dismissed it but the price of panels has plummeted and at todays electrical supply rates the pay back period will happen in my lifetime where a few years ago that was debatable even for a small system. Batteries aren't a starter at the moment as Al has said, they are simply too expensive and the total current draw from today's batteries is pretty dismal as well, no way can batteries supply a house if the power is cut, you would be lucky to boil the kettle and run a few lights at the same time.

Uncle Al

6th October 2017, 09:46 AM

Batteries aren't a starter at the moment as Al has said, they are simply too expensive and the total current draw from today's batteries is pretty dismal as well, no way can batteries supply a house if the power is cut, you would be lucky to boil the kettle and run a few lights at the same time.

Add a 4.8Kw water heater to the mix and the batteries would flatten quick smart!

Alan...

david.elliott

6th October 2017, 11:34 AM

We have a few options for gas but its much of a muchness between the providers[/QUOTE]

We're on bottled gas, and then it's only used for the gas cooktop...so a bottle probably every 18 months ish...

While SWMBO is "shopping" I entertain myself by being nabbed by the Kleenheat teams that are there... let them go all through the story, nodding and making eye contact as appropriate, and stringing it out for as long as I can. You can't ask questions though...as that would be a give away...

Then when they get to the "close" I ask, "Will this also apply if I'm on bottled gas?"

Priceless...! You'd have thought considering the area we're in a Q about bottles would be scripted for these kids...

Bohdan

6th October 2017, 12:01 PM

The ideal is not to feed in anything but that ain't gonna happen as supply and demand within the house goes up and down.

If you have an off peak electric hot water system look at installing a diverter which will send any excess power to your hot water system rather than into the grid. The off peak will then only be used to top up the hot water if required.

In my case I have the off peak turned off for 6 months of every year. I also use the excess power to boost my hydronic heating in winter.

FenceFurniture

6th October 2017, 01:23 PM

You'll probably need extra panels when you buy an electric car.

rrich

6th October 2017, 02:43 PM

Here in Huntington Beach we're at a latitude of about 34°, North. The last I heard the sunshine factor was estimated at 79%.

So I was looking at solar for the rooftop. The house and garage is almost 210 Square Meters. The slope of the roof is close to 40°.

Solar City (Now owned by Tesla?) is offering a glass shingle that looks like black slate and would be a reasonable fit for the neighborhood. There are two types of these glass shingles, generating and non. The prices are reported to be very similar.

Using their calculator, and without a 'Power Wall' the cost would be over $56,000. I'm not exactly sure what the total generating capacity but I've been told very close to 12 KW. A typical home installation is usually 3 KW or so. That works out to about 20 years of selling the KW to the local power company to break even. I'm 75 YO and when paid off I'll be 95. My electric bills are typically less than $80 during the non-air conditioning months and might go as high $200 during the 3½ months the A/C is running.

Yeah I thought about it but it isn't a wise investment. And, unlike some areas of Europe, the power company will buy the excess generated at wholesale rates or $0.06 per KW.

FenceFurniture

6th October 2017, 02:57 PM

My electric bills are typically less than $80 during the non-air conditioning months and might go as high $200 during the 3½ months the A/C is running.

Yeah I thought about it but it isn't a wise investment. And, unlike some areas of Europe, the power company will buy the excess generated at wholesale rates or $0.06 per KW.If that's $200 per 3 months then it's cheap as chips compared to here.

What do you pay per kW in peak times? I'm paying 21.4c pkW after discounts, so you must be paying significantly less than that. Furthermore a bill of $80 in the non-AC months is crazy good (again, if it's for a quarter). We pay ~$1 a day just for the supply charge - without any usage whatsoever........that's $91 per quarter before we plug in.

Chris Parks

6th October 2017, 03:27 PM

If you have an off peak electric hot water system look at installing a diverter which will send any excess power to your hot water system rather than into the grid. The off peak will then only be used to top up the hot water if required.

In my case I have the off peak turned off for 6 months of every year. I also use the excess power to boost my hydronic heating in winter.

Can you link to the one you have Bohdan as the one I looked at was a $1000 and the savings do not add up.

Chris Parks

6th October 2017, 03:31 PM

You'll probably need extra panels when you buy an electric car.

That will be the child's problem as much as I would like it to be mine, I would have an electric car in a heart beat but the wallet says no go. A Tesla P100D sounds quick enough to me.

Chris Parks

6th October 2017, 03:38 PM

Bohdan

6th October 2017, 04:13 PM

Can you link to the one you have Bohdan as the one I looked at was a $1000 and the savings do not add up.

The one that I have can only divert 2.5Kw at a time and in the time that I have had it (about 4 years) it has diverted ~$500 worth of electricity each year (I have a 4.3Kw system).

If you can get one that diverts a larger amount off a larger system I think that the payback would be even quicker.

This (https://www.immersun.co.uk/how-immersun-works/) is the unit that I have and it cost about $1000 4 years ago but it appears that they are no longer in business.
Their replacement from the people that I got mine from is now the Sunmate (http://www.australianwindandsolar.com/aws-sunmate).

Chris Parks

6th October 2017, 11:22 PM

Thanks Bohdan, I will look into.

Bushmiller

7th October 2017, 08:22 AM

Interesting discussion. Interesting in that the rate of under 22c/KWH that Brett has negotiated (at considerable time and effort) is significantly less than the cost of electricity going back a few years. And yet there is much hype about the escalating cost of electricity.

It is also interesting that these retailers of electricity have so much wiggle room to be able to offer these discounts. It has long been my contention that the retailers and the wholesalers for that matter were creaming the money in at the expense of the general public. The sad part of the wholesalers was that they were not maintaining their systems to a satisfactory level or upgrading the systems in anticipation of new technologies, such as solar (rooftop). Now they cry poor.

Also interesting that the government in particular is so quick to decry the profit that the power generators are making. It doesn't really matter what business you are talking about, but if there is not something in it for everybody it's going to go pear shaped. Over the last fifteen years profit in the power generation market has been made for three years in the example I am talking about (without going into too much details as that starts to breach confidentiality) and two of those years have been 2015 and 2016 (probably 2017 as well). During those times of loss the generators endured, although I don't know how. They were part of the competitive market which includes all Eastern states, including Tasmania. This is the same market with the same rules for all these years.

We should also note that the competitive market for electricity is the market that the government put in place. Their rules.

During all those years of financial loss the government did not step up and say "you poor blokes," but as soon as profits are made the attitude is that "we can't have this." Like I said, everybody has a right to run a viable business. There have been claims of huge costs of electricity at the generation end. This is true: It lasts ordinarily for about five minutes and occurs only occasionally. I don't think it has happened in the last six months, but in the previous six months it happened on multiple occasions. I suppose it never suits the people who are brandishing these figures to add that sometimes the cost of electricity at our end goes minus. The generators have to pay to stay online! Again this doesn't last for long, but if we feel it necessary to mention the high price surely we should be mentioning the low price too. Otherwise we are cherry picking to suit our agenda.

Currently, and this is just my take on the figures, the average wholesale cost of electricity would be around 8-9c/KWH. It depends which state you live in (I don't mean inebriated or sober :wink: ). South Australia is the most expensive (and always has been) while Queensland is the cheapest (and always has been.)

So to return to the retail price, I would suggest that a trippling of the cost by the time it reaches your house is not unreasonable. Although I am not comparing apples with apples, compare it to the cost of beef. The farmer get $3-$4/Kg, but we pay upwards of $20/Kg in the shop ($10 for mince, $30+ for filet steak). That's a five times increase.

Just to make a last comment, in the cities the retail electricity market is going the way of the telecommunication companies. It is not an option if you live in the sticks. It seems that in comparing products you are always comparing apples with oranges.

Regards
Paul

Regards
Pau

rrich

7th October 2017, 09:36 AM

If that's $200 per 3 months then it's cheap as chips compared to here.

What do you pay per kW in peak times? I'm paying 21.4c pkW

It is a monthly bill. We have a tiered system with the current top tier 26 cents per KWh.

So during the summer $200 might be for one month and $160-$180 for the other two months. They are trying to force a time of day billing system on us. What they do is to raise the normal rates so that the TOD rates look cheap. Which of course they're not. (Have you ever heard of a company trying to save YOU money at the expense of their bottom line?) And we're not even getting kissed. :)

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 10:15 AM

... the rate of under 22c/KWH that Brett has negotiated (at considerable time and effort) is significantly less than the cost of electricity going back a few years. And yet there is much hype about the escalating cost of electricity.That figure of <22c includes GST, to be clear. There was a major price increase (~25% depending on your peak/off-peak split) on July 1 this year, and this was what kick started me into action.

However, the peak price didn't rise all that much. The following figures are for AGL, and without GST and without discounts (given that they vary WILDLY even within the same retailer :~)
Before July 1
Peak 24.64c pkWh
Controlled Load 1 (aka Off Peak) 7.34c pkWh
Combined supply charge 83.59c per day
After July 1
Peak 29c pkWh which is an increase of 17.7%
Controlled Load 1 (aka Off Peak) 12c pkWh which is a whopping increase of 63.5%
Combined supply charge 90c per day which is a modest increase of 7.67%

Now I have no doubt that the retailers will have some bullsh excuse as to why off-peak went up so dramatically in comparison to peak, but I would be deeply suspicious that it is so they can say that peak prices haven't risen all that much and off-peak prices are still low in comparison to peak. Whichever way it is sliced, our usage here ranges about 60/40 to 50/50 for P/OP so the overall increase was huge.

Anyway, to address your point there Paul, the only reason my new rate is less than it has been for the last ? years is because I was only getting a 6% discount when there was apparently much more on offer, unbeknown to me. If I had been previously getting say the 25% that AGL immediately offered me when I first made contact in August then my Peak rate would have been 20.33c pkWh inc GST prior to July 1. In other words only a little less than my new current rate with Origin.

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 10:15 AM

It is also interesting that these retailers of electricity have so much wiggle room to be able to offer these discounts. It has long been my contention that the retailers and the wholesalers for that matter were creaming the money in at the expense of the general public. OF COURSE THEY ARE! BASTARDS! My 94yo mother would have no hope of negotiating a better deal with these mongrels. Firstly she is not an internet person. Secondly it is extraordinarily complex to work it all out (more on this below) and I believe that this could well be deliberate collusion purely for the sake of obfuscation.

I don't know when these larger discounts started coming into play but it has obviously been for a while. This is the part that REALLY irks me. They should be forced to offer everyone the same rates because if that does not happen it just means that I'm getting a better rate than you at your expense. You are unknowingly subsidising me and that is unAustralian, ESPECIALLY given that the most likely people to be on the high rates are those who can least afford it (like my pensioner mother).

Furthermore, it is not like I hadn't had recent verbal communication with AGL before July - in other words they had an opportunity then to offer me a better deal, but kept quiet. Earlier this year (and this just shows the level of mongrel they are) my gas bill was still about $50 in credit after it was issued (because of my advance payments). However, my elec bill still needed about $20 or something to be paid, so the net result is that AGL still have $30 of my money in credit. I forgot about paying the elec and was slugged with a $12.50 late fee on the next bill. Those that know me will understand that I SAW RED.

So I ring them up and the idiot tries to convince me that because they are two different accounts there is nothing that can be done. I said "So I bought a kg of apples from you one day, and overpaid you for them, and the next day I bought a kilo of oranges, and underpaid you for them, but still had overall credit with you, and you think you can justify charging me a late fee for the oranges? You must be bloody joking! Put me through to your supervisor, NOW!" Actually, now that I write that story, that might have been my previous contact with Goldfish personality "Cam", but whoever it was, they begrudgingly agreed to wipe off the $12.50 late fee.

More self-sabotage.

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 10:16 AM

It seems that in comparing products you are always comparing apples with oranges.Grrrrrr! :((:~:(( Another thing that makes my blood boil. If you don't have my reasonably sophisticated spreadsheet at your disposal then you are completely buggered for comparing prices in different scenarios - and I'd not be surprised if I'm the only person anal enough to create such a spreadsheet. There are some online tools, such as https://www.energymadeeasy.gov.au/ which is actually pretty good if you can handle inputting your data a million times. It is not completely accurate, but not too bad.

I have checked energy prices on perhaps 12-15 different companies. They all have different thresholds and different rates for each threshold. So looking at gas, for example, Retailer A may have
up to 20 Megajoules (MJ) per day is 36.5c per
the next 20MJ pd is 34c and so on.

Retailer B may have
a single flat rate across the board (AGL)

So that makes it impossible to compare without a complex calculation (especially as you have to do it over the four seasons of the year).

The next hurdle they throw at us is the discounts. Some discount the usage and the daily supply, but most just discount the usage. You can bet that discount of both means a higher rate to start with, and a higher discount means a higher rate to start with, but it might just be one of the middle rates buried in there so we can't really see it.

Then they have differing contract times, some with breakout penalties, some without. This "contract" is also nothing but a joke. They can still change the prices twice per year without consulting us, and if we don't like the new rates and want to go elsewhere we might have to pay them an exit fee! How the hell is that a contract? It's obscene is what it is. It is a contract that is only in favour of the retailer. All they guarantee the consumer is the discount percentage. THEY CAN PUT THE RATES UP TO WHATEVER THEY LIKE, AS SOON AS THEY LIKE! That of course makes a mockery of the discount.

The only positive thing I can say for AGL there is that at least they have one rate for the Gas MJ usage, and one rate for the Peak kWh usage. They are the only company I have seen that is doing that - they may be another that I have not seen.

Overall however, I would have to say that none of the retailers present an easy to understand, straightforward and completely honest plan. At the end of the day, they need to make a certain margin on the wholesale price to survive. I can't imagine that the margin varies all that much. Some of them, like Dodo, send their call centres to the Philipines. Dodo actually happen to be the cheapest for gas and elec (for the Blue Mntns anyway) but saving the extra little bit is not worthwhile IMO because if I have cause to ring the call centre I will have extraordinary difficulty in understanding what they are saying. Just the way it is. "Sorry, would you mind separating your lips when you speak?"

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 10:24 AM

It is a monthly bill. We have a tiered system with the current top tier 26 cents per KWh. So during the summer $200 might be for one month and $160-$180 for the other two months. Yeah ok, so leaving out exchange rates and differeing cost of living factors (which probably neutralise each other anyway) our elec rates a re fairly comparable.

They are trying to force a time of day billing system on us. What they do is to raise the normal rates so that the TOD rates look cheap. That sounds like what we have always had here: Peak, off-Peak, and for some people "shoulder". Peak is usually 2-10pm but that can vary a little.

And we're not even getting kissed. :):D Vaseline?

Bushmiller

7th October 2017, 10:41 AM

I don't know when these larger discounts started coming into play but it has obviously been for a while. This is the part that REALLY irks me. They should be forced to offer everyone the same rates because if that does not happen it just means that I'm getting a better rate than you at your expense. You are unknowingly subsidising me and that is unAustralian, ESPECIALLY given that the most likely people to be on the high rates are those who can least afford it (like my pensioner mother).

Brett

That is such a good point. It always seems to be that those who are least able to afford are those who end up paying. When you come to negotiation most people are hopelessly equipped to deal with such an event.

This type of scenario has occurred before in other areas: Such as when it was proposed that employees negotiate with their employers for their salary back last century: As somebody said, how is the average bloke going to do that with the likes of John Elliot (hadn't fallen from grace at that stage.)

So yes, the competitive market is not necessarily a win for everybody. It may not be a win for most people unless you have a background in sales and negotiation.

One other issue that I don't think has been addressed in electricity costs is the service charge and in fact it is my understanding that this is an area that is being rorted even more than the KWH rate.

Regards
Paul

BobL

7th October 2017, 11:32 AM

I don't know when these larger discounts started coming into play but it has obviously been for a while. This is the part that REALLY irks me. They should be forced to offer everyone the same rates because if that does not happen it just means that I'm getting a better rate than you at your expense. You are unknowingly subsidising me and that is unAustralian, ESPECIALLY given that the most likely people to be on the high rates are those who can least afford it (like my pensioner mother)

It was part of old school "Un-Australian" behaviour of a "fair go for everyone" but as Paul says, welcome to the brave new world of "Competitive business behaviour". It's the same class of behaviour as "hundreds of brands of breakfast cereal" , ultra complex and confusing mobile phone and internet contracts, etc and no different IMHO to pyramid schemes.

The whole idea is to confuse, baffle, inconvenience, and swamp the consumer with so much BS that the bulk of them give up and consume what is the least inconvenient. It is couched in terms of "offering consumer choice", note how many advertisers of Health Insurance and mobile phone contracts flog this aspect of their services.

OTOH, single fixed prices for everything is seen by many as too socialistic, anticompetitive and leading to a stagnant or even backwards spiralling economy.

Some sort of balance between the two is needed.
Perhaps "negotiating a deal" could be a new subject at school"?
If we wait long enough maybe Trump will introduce this?
No, wait, that would be informing the general population, can't have that can we.

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 11:34 AM

One other issue that I don't think has been addressed in electricity costs is the service charge and in fact it is my understanding that this is an area that is being rorted even more than the KWH rate.Indeed. I think I'm glad you brought that up, but I really must do something about my blood pressure. It may also explain why there was such a modest 7.67% increase in the supply charge (they probably thought they had better put it up too, otherwise we might get suspicious of a rort).

The retailers charge us a daily fee to supply the elec and gas to the property. In fact they do no such thing - it is the wholesalers who supply and do meter readings. In the Blue Mntns that means Jemena Gas and Endeavour Electricity. Indeed, most of the time, once it is connected there is nothing more to do - just read the meter every 3 months. I did have a new meter installed a year ago (dunno why, and I didn't even know until a month ago), and I think this might have been when my meter fell off the database. There was a major problem out on the footpath (in front of here) about two years ago, but I doubt that had owt to do with owt.

I have no doubt that the wholesalers just charge a fee per kWh (which may vary with time of use, how much each retailer buys etc), and have no "per property" supply charge - that could get very cumbersome for them in billing the retailers, particularly with customers flying around all over the place from retailer to retailer.

Imagine how cheap the elec could be without that wasted $750-900 debacle just for me. I'm just one customer out of millions. As I said in the email, I know that AGL doesn't care about wasting other people's and company's time and resources, and you can't factor my time into the cost of elec equation, but it is still ~$500 wasted from energy cos just on my account. Not all people have the same fiasco that I did, but it would be reasonable to assume that there would be some 4-5 hours spent by various energy people on any given account transfer (and cancellation, and transfer again :roll:).

So you could probably say that $100 per transfer is wasted money, plus the time and aggravation of the customer.
"The who?"
"The customer - you know the poor sod that keeps you in business."

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 12:09 PM

OTOH, single fixed prices for everything is seen by many as too socialistic, anticompetitive and leading to a stagnant or even backwards spiralling economy.

Some sort of balance between the two is needed.Yes, and dead easy to do too. Force them (legislation) to all have the same thresholds - if they really need more than one - and to discount the same part(s). That way no spreadsheet is needed - the headline rates will tell us all we need to know. After all, energy supply is a right, it is fundamental to life - just like food supply. It's not like it's some luxury item.

And I certainly agree that they are deliberately making it as complex as possible. You only have to look at the bills to see that. My April to July bill this year is almost unintelligible.

First section is "Previous Balance and Payments" which is a list of my advance payments. They are not in chronological order, two of them have been split into two without explanation (and the dates are not significant either, like July 1). So the total of these is $448.96, but that's the last mention of that figure.
Then, still on the same page, we have "New charges and Credits" (funny, I thought we'd just had Credits, above). There are two sections of four lines each for this because of the price rocket on July 1. At the bottom of this page, even though the details haven't finished yet, we have the account balance and how to pay it taking up the bottom 30% of the page. But wait, there's more.....
So then, because of that premature and ridiculous waste of space on how to pay, we have the last of those 8 lines above, all with repeated headings (unnecessarily)
Then we have two more credits lines, and a total credits, which doesn't include the payment credits, co'z they don't call them credits....are you following? C'mon, keep up....
Then we have the total of charges and credits, but not including the payment credits, and we have the GST.
Then, without mentioning the payments we have an account balance.

That is all spread over 3 pages of confusion, when I could document very clearly in about 60% of one page.

Anyone would think they are trying to confuse me deliberately. :no:

Perhaps "negotiating a deal" could be a new subject at school"?
If we wait long enough maybe Trump will introduce this?Bob, give yourself an uppercut! I'd rather go through this fiasco than have a clown leading the world into an abyss any longer than necessary.

Bushmiller

7th October 2017, 01:06 PM

Bob, give yourself an uppercut!

Is that a discount in excess of 25%? :rolleyes: Or is it the one handed out by a bunch of fives? :(

Regards
Paul

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 01:34 PM

No discount.

Chris Parks

7th October 2017, 03:26 PM

So if I pay a usage fee which I forgot was part of the bill I should be able to negotiate to sell Brett excess electricity from my feedback into the grid, I reckon that is fair.

woodPixel

7th October 2017, 04:29 PM

The cure to high prices is high prices.

A classic economic saying, that one.

I'd say we are witnessing the final death throws of the entire electricity market. Short of government interference, the whole shambles is about to self implode. Which is a good thing.

There must be 1000 IT/tech companies looking a the FAT PROFITS of this industry and thinking... how can we get a cut of that fatted calf.... solar farms, monster batteries, gel/plastic batteries, compressed air storage, hydrolyzation, pumped water gravity systems, hyper-local generation and localised delivery systems OR smart-swapping and distro/saving schemes within tight neighbourhood groupings.... instant-on on-demand peak delivery systems that can stop and start within 5 minutes.

You wonder why AGL wanted out of Coal with Hazelwood/Liddell/etc? It has exactly zero to do with anti-coal. They are doing it for they know their companies have been tied to the post and given their cigarette. They know that if they are stuck with that white elephant they are doomed. They will sell it to the government who will proceed to burn everyone slowly alive with spectacular financial mismanagement. AGL et.al. will, of course, wring their hands in consternation in public, but it will be high-fives behind the doors.

The market always projects and peaks before it collapses. We are at the very top of the post GFC chicxulub tsunami.

Not much one can do about it today, other than turn everything off and screw the bastards as FenceFurniture has done with relentless negotiations.

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 04:45 PM

I have a radical idea for home generated solar but the energy companies won't like it or perhaps they will. I should be able to buy the right to use the network like we have registration on cars, then I should be able to negotiate with someone to buy my excess power that is fed into the grid which I think would be a win for everyone. I bet the energy prices come down then!!I don't think it should matter owt about the energy companies - we have to start thinking about the country's energy needs as a whole - ant mentality, if you like. At the moment we are just rewarding them for bad behaviour, so that will not just continue, it will get worse.

So if I pay a usage fee which I forgot was part of the bill I should be able to negotiate to sell Brett excess electricity from my feedback into the grid, I reckon that is fair.Indeed you should be able to do this. There are plenty of rooves around that are not suitable for solar power - shaded, wrong shape, wrong aspect etc etc. So if you have a neighbour that is one of those unfortunates then I think you should be able to put up as many panels as you can and sell off the excess - even if it means the neighbour stores it in a battery for later use at peak times (this would be in a few year's time, when batteries are commercially viable).

So if the best peak rate the neighbour can get is say 20c, and you can get say 12c selling back to the grid, then sell it to your neighbour for 16c and you both win. Does the Energy co win? Probably not but we would be taking the strain out of the system. Who cares about them anyway - I have as much sympathy for them as I do banks.

Would that lead to a demise of energy retailers? Well I would think that it probably would certainly lead to some thinning of numbers, but that is going to happen anyway as the country goes more solar over the next ten years.

It is inevitable.

After all, W.T.F do they do to earn their money? The get a reading from a wholesaler and turn it into a convoluted bill - that's it. BIG DEAL! At the same time they manage to aggravate half the country. Good riddance I say!

The best advice I can give to anyone is to put up as many solar panels as you can now (i.e. as many as your roof will take), while the installation rebates are still high (they will drop by 1/14th per year for the next 14 years from January 2018). At $700 per kW (not kWh) the rebates are not to be sneezed at. Install an inverter that can easily accommodate a battery in 3-5 years time, when the battery tech is right. The point being that whilst solar panel tech may become a little cheaper or more efficient, it is pretty good now especially with the rebates on offer, and waiting longer for cheaper probably doesn't commercially stack up. Opposite story with batteries though.

That then allows people to get rid of gas heating (and wood fires if they like). It also paves the way for more or less "free fuel"electric cars (I know there are various debates about their virtues, but they will come).

For the uninitiated: do not confuse rebates with Feed-In-Tariffs. Rebates are for installing the panels. FITs are for the excess lecky that you send into the grid.

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 05:13 PM

I'd say we are witnessing the final death throws of the entire electricity market.Yep, and I reckon Mike Baird sold the Poles & Wires at the peak time - they won't be worth a bumper once Solar has a decent take up rate. Maybe I'm missing something, but to me it was an exclusive case of the Govt being ahead of the game of Private Enterprise. Buying the Poles & Wires as the country is transitioning to Solar (inc going off-grid) makes as much sense as keeping Liddel power station going for an extra 5 years at some staggering cost.

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 08:55 PM

Rightio, I thought I might spruce up the spreadsheet and attach it to see if anyone finds it useful - please let me know (it was RATHER a lot of work to make it publishable).

Now I'm going to caveat the hell out of this:

the cells that are pale blue (or should be) are the ones where you can change the data
if you change any other cells then you're on your own baby - I've locked them but anything could happen
the kWh figures shown are my own, and you need to change them to yours, from your last 12 months bills
if you are billed monthly then you need to aggregate three months into one entry
the rates shown are for postcode 2780 (which applies to most of the Blue Mountains)
the rates may or may not be up to date - I got them 6 weeks ago - anything could happen in that time
you may not even have some of those suppliers I have shown
some of the suppliers have a tiered system for Peak usage - the spreadsheet does not allow for that, so bad luck for them for making it more difficult than it should be
if the equations are wrong then suck it up - it was my best effort (and if you're that smart you can create your own)
the low income rebate varies from state to state - do your own research and enter the correct figure, or just delete the one at the top
I do not have a 3-tier meter (which would include Shoulder or Controlled Load 2) - that's why those columns are blank
the best price supplier should get some pale green highlight in their name and the yearly total.
don't forget to delete the "YES" in column A if the supplier does not discount the daily supply charge (there are 3 flagged "YES")
I have unlocked the pale blue cells and locked the sheet - this should make it idiot proof for deleting formulae :roll:
If you are not an idiot :ninja: then you can unlock the sheet and go your hardest. There is no password.

Other than that....bon apetit!

Chris Parks

7th October 2017, 09:02 PM

The saviour for the energy companies is going to be high density housing where apartments etc do not have an individual roof for solar generation. I have just found out that the inverter that we are using can divert excess power to a hot water system or some other load instead of exporting it which makes me a happy camper. It doesn't do it as well as the dedicated units but it will do it. The people who are going to cop it in the neck for electricity are those who can least afford it and that view is starting to be recognised and the political party who decides to bite the bullet and do something about the cost of energy in Oz is going to win power in a landslide.

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 09:18 PM

The saviour for the energy companies is going to be high density housing where apartments etc do not have an individual roof for solar generation.Won't be long before solar paint is available though.

I have just found out that the inverter that we are using can divert excess power to a hot water system or some other load instead of exporting it which makes me a happy camper. It doesn't do it as well as the dedicated units but it will do it.Eggsellent! It will be cheaper than getting the dedicated jobbie though.

The people who are going to cop it in the neck for electricity are those who can least afford it and that view is starting to be recognised and the political party who decides to bite the bullet and do something about the cost of energy in Oz is going to win power in a landslide.Without a doubt (on all counts).

kungsleden

7th October 2017, 11:34 PM

Very good, informative thread. :2tsup:
I am moving back to Woodend (Victoria) end of December. We are considering solar energy, but will need to do it "right", i.e. grid connection or not, buy panels now or wait...
Anyone here willing to answer questions?

Cheers,

Christophe

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 11:53 PM

Delete.

What happened to the delete post button?

FenceFurniture

7th October 2017, 11:56 PM

Anyone here willing to answer questions?We've already wandered a fair way off topic - perhaps start another thread for that.

Sturdee

8th October 2017, 08:47 AM

Brett, while I readily accept your problems with AGL my experience with them was totally different.

I am with them for both gas and electricity and last year I was on a discount of 18 % for gas and 25 % for electricity. As I noticed others were advertising higher discounts of 20 and 30 % and $ 50 sign on bonus I rang them and asked if they could go higher. Immediately they offered 20 and 30 % and when pressed for the sign on bonus they gave the alternative of 20 and 35 %. As the higher discount was more then our first quarter I was happy with that the extra discount keeps going on and on.

Also AGL gives Flybuy points which over a year adds up to a $ 30 savings in my wife's shopping.

So one phone call is all it took for me to get what I want as I got higher discounts then currently available with actually the same rates for usage as the other companies.

Peter.

FenceFurniture

8th October 2017, 10:27 AM

Peter there is no doubt that my AGL experience has been "one out of the box", with some other cockups thrown in for good measure (like my meter not being on the database - that was where things went off the rails).

I am equally sure that plenty of people have had poor experiences with all the different retailers. What it came down to was how AGL handled it - and that was extremely poorly indeed.

Having said all that, the main point here is what we have to go through - with ANY retailer - to get a better deal. I believe that they should be compelled to offer everyone the same deal, whatever that may be and whatever they think they need to do to be competitive. They may not be able to afford to offer everyone a 32% discount on elec (or maybe they can.....), but they can quite obviously afford to offer everyone 25%, but are not until we complain, so what about the poor buggers who aren't in on the joke, like my mother, or who do not have the skills to screw out the best deal (or the damned patience and persistence)?

Fizza says that he has secured an agreement with them that they will write to 2 million households who could be on a better deal. I'll bet that they don't offer the highest (pre-retention) discounts to them though - in the hope that they'll be grateful for being offered a little more than they were getting and will happily accept less than they could bargain for.

Let's face it, this current circus must be costing them all a fortune in human resources with the amount of time they must be spending on the phone. Bloody ridiculous way to run a business if you ask me.

Lappa

8th October 2017, 02:49 PM

Sturdee, if you don’t mind me asking, what are you charges for;

Electricity - kWh and supply
Gas - MJ and supply.

It would appear different postcodes have different rates so it would be interesting to see actual costs.
You can PM me if you prefer.

I’ve been with AGL since Adam was a boy and the best they have done for me was 5% on the Electricity but that was some time ago. Guess I need to have a chat with them :D
I used to get a discount for paying on time by BPay but I got an account keeping fee but when I went to direct debit to avoid the fee, they said I couldn’t have the discount because they couldn’t be sure that the payment would be made on time - go figure??

Bushmiller

8th October 2017, 03:26 PM

You wonder why AGL wanted out of Coal with Hazelwood/Liddell/etc? It has exactly zero to do with anti-coal. They are doing it for they know their companies have been tied to the post and given their cigarette. They know that if they are stuck with that white elephant they are doomed. They will sell it to the government who will proceed to burn everyone slowly alive with spectacular financial mismanagement. AGL et.al. will, of course, wring their hands in consternation in public, but it will be high-fives behind the doors.

WP

Just in the interests of accuracy, Liddell is indeed owned by AGL (They bought Liddell and Bayswater as a package), but Hazelwood is owned by the French company Engie, who also own Pelican Point. Pelican Point and Hazelwood have had their own controversies. Pelican Point is a two unit gas fired station. They had been running two units at half load. Realising this was uneconomic, they moth balled one unit, removed it from the system and ran the remaining unit at full load. When SA had a power crisis they were criticised for not restarting the unit: They couldn't. No fuel and no presence on the schedule.

Hazelwood, which is a very old brown coal station was one of the dirtiest stations in the world, certainly the dirtiest in Australia. Unfortunately Victoria's base load power is based on brown coal stations. However this is a small digression for which I apologise.

The crux of all this is that if you want a competitive market and one that encourages (deliberately) private enterprise, you cant' then turn around and say "that's unfair" or "that's not what we want you to do." In other words you can't have it both ways.

In the retail market there are similar issues. Once you can approach different companies to lock in a better deal to some extent you cannot complain (other than poor performance on a specific instance such as Brett experienced). Of course some people are better shoppers than others. Brett is the electrical retailers worst nightmare while they hope that the majority of their customers are like Brett's mum. In time the better companies will endure and the poor companies will fade away just like with a supermarket, but the rub is that generally we are not so conversant with the intricacies of electricity supply as we are with buying a kilo of bacon.

A competitive market in the electrical generation field has reversed the focus from continuity of supply to price. This is what the governments of both callings have wanted: They should heed the old mantra "Be careful what you wish for."

Regards
Paul

Sturdee

8th October 2017, 03:37 PM

I'm on the rates applicable to Metropolitan Victoria, I know that country and interstate are different as we all have smart meters (and paid for) which will now be introduced nationally.

However here are my rates:

Electricity

Peak 25.05 c per KWH, HWS 16.79 c per KWH and supply charge $ 1.1047 per day all plus GST.

Discount 35 % on the usage rates (prior to the GST) and not on the supply charge.

Gas

First 2950 MJ is at $0.02315, next 2950 MJ is at $ 0.02013, next 2950 MJ is at $ 0.01604, next 5900 MJ is at $ 0.01387 and then the rest is at $ 01292.
Supply charge is at $0.7413 per day all plus GST.

Discount 20 % on the usage rates (prior to the GST) and not on the supply charge.

I get my bills emailed and pay by direct debit and the discount is actually called a pay on time discount.

Of course as I'm an old fellow I also get the Victorian government winter energy allowance on gas and HWS electricity use and the Commonwealth government pensioner rebate.

Trust that this helps.

Peter.

BTW AGL will, if you are on emailed bills and pay by direct debit, give you FlyBuy points on the total amounts paid which in our case gives $ 30 of free grocery shopping a year at Coles. But again you have to ask for this.

FenceFurniture

8th October 2017, 04:04 PM

Electricity

Peak 25.05 c per KWH, HWS 16.79 c per KWH and supply charge $ 1.1047 per day all plus GST.

Discount 35 % on the usage rates (prior to the GST) and not on the supply charge.Here we go again with yet another way to slice up the cat, and come to the same damned result. When I put those rates into my spreadsheet and using my kWh, lo and behold, at $1238 per year it comes in at third place, just behind the AGL Retention rates (32%) at $1196 per year, and $1161 for the Origin Retention rates that I am getting.

This is despite Sturdee getting one of the highest off-peak rates of 16.79, and I think THE highest supply charge of $1.1047, because he also gets THE highest discount I've seen at 35%.

Fair dinkum, it's just bullsh. Obviously these twats work backwards from the $1238 figure with the mantra of
"ok, Sturdee's postcode has to be different to work out but give us the same bottom line....."
"Uhh, why? Why don't we use the same rates is next door?"
"Coz it's energy prices dummy! They have to be different and difficult, other wise people will know what we do - make money for jam."
"But doesn't that cost us more in admin?"
"Relaaaax, the poor sodding customer pays for that too. Relax and enjoy the party"

Peter, another data question if I may: did you have a frightening rise on July 1, mainly in the off-peak rate? I'll wager that your rates were something like 22c/10c/$1 prior to July 1.

Sturdee

8th October 2017, 05:58 PM

THE highest supply charge of $1.1047,

The supply charge, whilst high, I think is the same all Victoria as it covers the supply network and the on going repayment of the smart meters that Victoria installed at the consumers houses. This was also affected by the bush fires payout. This rate is set by the government and not the retailer.

The smart meters charge will affect other states soon as the government will start to introduce them nationwide in December, so prepare yourself for another shock.

Incidentally there was no increase in rates or supply charge in July for me and the rates were the same as is available here from Origin Energy and other suppliers according to my internet searches, using 15 postcodes around Melbourne, at the time.

Peter.

FenceFurniture

8th October 2017, 06:16 PM

After reading this article (https://www.choice.com.au/home-improvement/energy-saving/power-meters/articles/smart-meters-how-do-they-work) on Smart Meters I'm having difficulty in seeing much, if any benefit to consumers. Seems to be more for the Energy Cos, in that they don't have to send around meter readers.

At the moment I'm pretty sure the our Off-Peak (Controlled Load 1) is only for the Hot water service. If a smart meter means that I can use CL1 power for other things (anything consuming elec overnight) then yes there would be a small benefit. Out of the list of "energy guzzlers" that they nominate, only the washing machine would apply to us.

I doubt the neighbours would appreciate me running the thicky/DE overnight.....

Sturdee

8th October 2017, 07:06 PM

The main benefit of smart meters is for the energy companies, who apart from not requiring meter readers, can switch of power remotely to either a meter or specific appliances in your house if you go to special rates. It also allows them to offer different rates for different times of the day.
These are not relevant to me but I had and am still paying for the compulsory installation of them.

fletty

8th October 2017, 09:47 PM

I have only recently retired from this industry and can confirm that, as evidenced by all of the earlier posts, it is an incredibly complex business model and, within that complex model, large and diverse components of it, are contrived to suit various political and social needs. The discussions in the posts above are like studying the very end of a dog's wagging tail and, by that, trying to understand the dog itself?
At this point it is worth introducing the term 'arbitrage'. Arbitrage can be likened to legalised gambling and this is a constant that runs right through this complex model.
This whole model starts with forecasting and buying forward. To create these forecasts, this industry is one of the largest industrial users of pure mathematicians in the country. Their role is to create models that predict future power consumption in incredible detail, complexity and accuracy. It takes into account temperature, time of day, day of the week, season, socio-economic circumstance etc, and I'll discuss just one of many examples of this. On (say) a 40 degree day, the power consumed in a single hour can vary by a factor of up to 10 fold. If the 40 degree hour is at 2 to 3pm on a Sunday in early Summer after a cooler prior day then the power consumed would be 1 UNIT per customer. IF however the 40 degree hour is on a Wednesday between 5 and 6pm after a series of 40 degree days, then the power consumed across the same socio- economic group would be at least 10 UNITS per customer. A different socio-economic group can apply a further multiplier of up to 4. So, let's say you are a retailer, the weather bureau forecasts a 40 degree day, your mathematicians go to work and forecast a power usage of 32.845 MILLION UNITS ( being somewhere between 1 and 40!) for 2 - 3pm. Your purchasing group then go to the market to buy 32.845 MILLION UNITS of power for that hour which might be in 2 hours time.
Now, as a retailer, you know that the mix of your industrial, residential and commercial customers pay an average of $15 per unit for 2 - 3 pm on a Wednesday so your aim is to buy from the generators at a price of less than $15 per unit because the difference will be your profit.
Now, let's say you are one of the multiple generators that this retailer will approach to buy the power for an hour in 2 hours time. You don't know that the retailer is trying to purchase an entire package at less than an average of $15 per unit. As you can see above, I am using anonymous UNITS but my real World experience is that, in relative terms, generators can, and do, offer power at NIL to $10,000 per UNIT for fixed amounts. So, the retailer WHO MUST BUY 32.845 MILLION UNITS tries to buy across all of these offers to get a total of 32.845 MILLION UNITS at less than $15 per UNIT. Traditionally, base load power stations will offer a low price to encourage retailers to buy enough to enable them to keep running their plant continuously and at an efficient operating level because they can't ramp up or down easily. However, 'peaking plant' CAN turn on and off quickly but costs more to generate so they will offer in the middle range of prices but for a smaller volume. Now, let's look at the generator who sells at $10,000 per UNIT to a retailer who can only sell to their customer at $15 per UNIT. This doesn't appear to make any sense but, if the retailer can't get 32.845 MILLION UNITS from other sources, then they MUST buy enough at $10,000 to top up their quantity or they face crippling penalties both commercially and reputationally because there will be blackouts. Is $10,000 a real World number? YES! There is a hydro generator in Australia who can offer power at that sort of price. If a retailer needs them to generate, they push a button, release the water, generate the required units for the required time and then stop. Later, when the high load period has passed, THE GENERATOR will buy power from another ( say) base load generator at say $12 per UNIT and pump the water back up to a high reservoir to await the next high load period and repeat the process at ( say) $10,000 per UNIT again!

Jetlag is setting in so I'll stop for now and continue later this week if anyone is interested. If not, I'll go back to wood work?

(recently returned) fletty

NCArcher

8th October 2017, 10:39 PM

Like the hydro generator Fletty mentioned, there is a private power station in the Hunter Valley that is diesel fired. They charge probably more than the Hydro plant but only have to run for a very short time each year to make money.
Welcome home Mr Flett

Chris Parks

8th October 2017, 10:40 PM

rrich

9th October 2017, 08:41 AM

:d vaseline?

lol!

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 09:25 AM

.... continue later this week if anyone is interested.Yes please.

Some questions come out of what you have written so far:
1. Who is it that buys these "futures" of power? I think you indicated it was the retailers buying from the generators, but where does the wholesaler fit into that?
2. What is the daily supply charge about? Is it a rort or is there actually something of substance to it?

Sounds like even more reason to be on Solar and as little dependent as possible on the grid.

WRT smart meters, I don't quite understand how a retailer can reach out and shut off one particular appliance during a power pre-crisis. For example, in this 1920 house there are two general power circuits, a lights circuit, an oven circuit, and the CL1 Hot Water circuit. To shut down an appliance on the general circuits they would have to shut down the whole circuit.

To the best of my knowledge, and using a pool pump as an example of something that could be shut down (i.e. non-urgent power usage), pool pumps would just be on a general circuit, so how can they be isolated? Or is it the case that they can only shut down a circuit that has dedicated non-urgent appliances on it (or something)? Furthermore, how would the consumer know it's the electricity retailer shutting it down, and not just some power or appliance fault?

There is another aspect that I don't quite understand about the transmission of power (And I turn mean politically). IF SA is using power generated by a plant in QLD wouldn't there be tremendous losses along the grid as it travels such huge distances? What sort of time frames are we talking to send the power along the distances? Surely WA would have to generate 100% of the power it consumes?

swk

9th October 2017, 10:17 AM

Yes please.

WRT smart meters, I don't quite understand how a retailer can reach out and shut off one particular appliance during a power pre-crisis. For example, in this 1920 house there are two general power circuits, a lights circuit, an oven circuit, and the CL1 Hot Water circuit. To shut down an appliance on the general circuits they would have to shut down the whole circuit.

No, the whole circuit doesn't have to shut down. I don't know how any particular smart meter works but if the appliance itself has an appropriate detector, a shut down/start up signal can be sent to the meter* which can selectively switch off the appliance(s) by sending the signal to it (them) via the house wiring (even though you have 240 volts on the wires you can _also_ put other signals on them, do you remember plug in intercoms?). Using digital signalling codes _can_ also allow switching of different appliances at different times (if needed).

* the command signals to the meter most likely will be sent via the digital communications used to send the metering data back and forth. However it can be done just as easily through the electrical lines from the zone substation to address all the meters in a particular area, rather than one by one digitally. In fact, there are old analogue off peak HWS systems from the 90s that work in that exact way.

(what I really mean is, there are plenty of ways to do it, but the appliance in question needs a detector of some sort so it can be remotely switched. Getting the signal to it then is not so hard)

Regards
SWK

swk

9th October 2017, 10:31 AM

There is another aspect that I don't quite understand about the transmission of power (And I turn mean politically). IF SA is using power generated by a plant in QLD wouldn't there be tremendous losses along the grid as it travels such huge distances? What sort of time frames are we talking to send the power along the distances? Surely WA would have to generate 100% of the power it consumes?

A quick answer (I have to run). Bushmiller may elaborate.
Earlier in the thread Fletty talked about Arbitrage

There are actually _two_ electrical markets. One is physical with real electricity flowing about the place. The other is financial with money flowing about the place.
The power generated in QLD (say) will likely be used up near where it is generated (or at least never goes so far as SA) but the market itself allows for a person in SA to "buy" from QLD. Think of it like two big pots. The QLD generator puts his power in to the power pot due to some agreed rules and takes his money out of the money pot according to some other rules (those arbitrage rules). The SA consumer pays his money into the money pot and gets his power out of the power pot and doesn't really care where it really comes from. The money may go from SA to QLD, but the electricity never really did.

Poor old WA "misses" out because, even though it is easy to include them in the money pot, they cant play in the electricity pot unless there are physical wires to join them to the east coast.

Regards
SWK

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 10:44 AM

Ok, so saving elec drain on big usage days to prevent blackouts won't be particularly useful until there are enough smart big drain appliances in the market. That could be "quite some time".

I don't see much future for that up here either. There are very few air-conditioners, almost nil swimming pools (there isn't a pool shop within cooee), and a pretty high take-up of solar panels. Mind you, I doubt we'll have any say in the matter.

Speaking of the take-up of solar panels, my partner's daughter has just had house built in Oran Park - near fletty. This is one of those new Landcom estates, so everything is brand new, fibre to the house and all that.

This is an area that is VERY hot in summer
There are NIL trees anywhere.
I'll wager that 80% or more of the houses have ducted aircon
EVERY house has a black (or near to) roof. :doh:
NONE of the houses have Solar panels:doh::doh:
From any given back "veranda" you have between 3 and 6 black rooves crowding in on you - that's all you can see, apart from kilometres of Colourbond fencing!

When Lola returned from a visit there yesterday, she said "Guess what? I finally saw a roof with a few solar panels today!"

Chris Parks

9th October 2017, 10:48 AM

A quick answer (I have to run). Bushmiller may elaborate.
Earlier in the thread Fletty talked about Arbitrage

There are actually _two_ electrical markets. One is physical with real electricity flowing about the place. The other is financial with money flowing about the place.
The power generated in QLD (say) will likely be used up near where it is generated (or at least never goes so far as SA) but the market itself allows for a person in SA to "buy" from QLD. Think of it like two big pots. The QLD generator puts his power in to the power pot due to some agreed rules and takes his money out of the money pot according to some other rules (those arbitrage rules). The SA consumer pays his money into the money pot and gets his power out of the power pot and doesn't really care where it really comes from. The money may go from SA to QLD, but the electricity never really did.

Poor old WA "misses" out because, even though it is easy to include them in the money pot, they cant play in the electricity pot unless there are physical wires to join them to the east coast.

Regards
SWK

This is how my idea of selling excess power to a selected user works. I export into the grid and it gets pooled and the person buying gets some electricity from the pool not the exact electrons I exported. Some years ago there was an attempt to sell green power at a higher cost, it may still be done for all I know and it worked on the same principal of pooling.

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 10:51 AM

Poor old WA "misses" out because, even though it is easy to include them in the money pot, they cant play in the electricity pot unless there are physical wires to join them to the east coast.Hmmmm :think: As I thought, but in the light of "The money may go from SA to QLD, but the electricity never really did." why would that matter?

Chris Parks

9th October 2017, 10:55 AM

Speaking of the take-up of solar panels, my partner's daughter has just had house built in Oran Park - near fletty. This is one of those new Landcom estates, so everything is brand new, fibre to the house and all that.

This is an area that is VERY hot in summer
There are NIL trees anywhere.
I'll wager that 80% or more of the houses have ducted aircon
EVERY house has a black (or near to) roof. :doh:
NONE of the houses have Solar panels:doh::doh:
From any given back "veranda" you have between 3 and 6 black rooves crowding in on you - that's all you can see, apart from kilometres of Colourbond fencing!

When Lola returned from a visit there yesterday, she said "Guess what? I finally saw a roof with a few solar panels today!"

You're just jealous of life in suburbia :U, be damned if I would go back there to live. Ozzie houses are badly designed but that is for another thread.

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 11:24 AM

Some years ago there was an attempt to sell green power at a higher cost, it may still be done for all I know.It is, and it's ridiculous. You can have the pleasure of paying anything up to an additional 10c per kWh to purchase Green power. How they expect that to have any kind of take-up rate I will never understand. Consider the following:

The best form of Green energy is having your own solar panels (not accounting for the manufacturing foibles of solar panels, and the carbon footprint involved)
Your peak energy costs might be say 22c pkWh
That might result in a 5-7 year payback for your panels (remembering that they only produce power in peak or shoulder)
You elect to pay an additional 10c pkWh for Green energy
That extra 10c would mean that your payback period would reduce 3-5 years if you devoted your philosophical 10c to the panels instead.
That's a pretty stoopid commercial decision to make

Paying the extra money is for people with more money than brains, and is still just rewarding bad behaviour, because I am not at all confident that the retailers would purchase that Green power, as they say they will, particularly in times of high drain. Who holds them accountable?.

It may be that some of those people paying for Green power don't have a viable Solar roof, and they need to feel good and Green, but surely it would be better if their money was sent towards solar panel or battery research?

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 11:33 AM

Chris Parks

9th October 2017, 12:11 PM

What am I missing here?

Big business fears change unless there is a benefit in that change that makes more profit for them because they fear the shareholders will write down the value of their companies. That is one view, there are other reasons as well of course then the executives would lose money so it is in the end a greed system IMHO. That might sound simplistic but get between any person, you or me for instance and their money and the fangs come out.

Bushmiller

9th October 2017, 12:19 PM

A few thoughts off the top of my head that we have to bear in mind when discussing the market as a whole:

WA,NT and some other districts (Mount Isa for example) are not part of the Eastern Seaboard electricity market. They are stand alone.

The Eastern Seaboard is interconnected. There are interconnectors between

NSW and QLD
NSW and Vic
Vic and SA (two)
Vic and Tas.

These interconnectors are limited and have varying capacities. There are often constrained so also cannot always deliver their full nominal power. None of these interconnectors is even remotely capable of delivering all the power to a neighbouring state. So if all the power stations in Victoria shut down SA, tasmania and NSW would be unable to supply the demand. Vicoria would have a blackout and they have the most interconnectors (ie. from three states.

There are in simple terms two markets supplied by the generators: The contract market and the spot market. Wholesalers enter into contracts at fixed prices to avoid excessive cost during times of peak demand. I am not privy to the intricacies of these commercial arrangements, but I am led to believe they are for a minimum of three months typically and could be longer. However not all power is sold like this. The remaining power is sold on the spot market and this is the area that is volatile and so full of controversy. It is the area that is quoted in the media. At any one time the contract area may represent around half of the market bearing in mind that it is fixed and not a function of demand.

I believe this is an area that Fletty can contribute far more than I.

A high demand, say in SA, does have an effect on QLD but not directly. A scenario is that the price rises in SA so Victoria starts supplying via the interconnectors. Victoria buys power from either NSW or Tasmania at a cheaper rate and NSW buys power from QLD. There is a cascade effect.

There are indeed transmission losses. Initially power stations were built at the load centres. However the majority of people do not chose to live next door to a power station and even more importantly, as fuel is the single largest cost in a thermal power station, increasingly in recent times the stations were built close to fuel supplies. Bayswater's coal is delivered by conveyor. Millmerran, where I am employed, sits on top of it's own coal mine and consequently has one of the cheapest fuel sources in Australia. Remember again that all coal fired station burn absolute rubbish quality coal. Today that is as it was not always that way.

Solar power using photovoltaic cells takes up a huge area. Really huge: Acres and acres. The great outback (the desert preferably) would be perfect except that it is in the outback: Miles from anywhere. That means huge expense with transmission lines and voltage losses even at high transmission line voltages up to 500KV (500,000 volts). So solar rooftop is a very good alternative, but again not perfect.

Domestic power comes from the three phase power lines that run down your street. Roughly speaking a third of the houses use each phase (which gives us our 240V). They were designed to deliver power and tend to balance out fairly well. However they were not made to have power fed into them and if all the solar power in the street comes primarily on to a single phase rather than spread evenly there is a resulting imbalance. This is why some antagonists say solar is bad. Unfortunately the owners of these lines have not met up to the challenge and they have not anticipated changes in the nature of supply.

Lastly, solar, until an economic form of storage has been developed and whether it is batteries or something else, only delivers an average of say 25% (that's a figure off the top of my head, but it is to convey an idea) as there is not night time generation, reduced generation leading up to dark and after sunrise and varying amounts dependent on the time of year and cloud cover.

Having said that I am a big fan of solar power. When I mentioned this at work to my boss, he said he was OK with that, but I would be the first to go! :( :D

I know this is a little off the retial topic, but it may be regarded as background information as to why the retailers work the way they do. I hope Fletty will contribute more on that front.

Regards
Paul

Bushmiller

9th October 2017, 12:28 PM

I just forget the numbers now, but Germany is producing more Green power than dirty power IIRC, and one of the Euro countries (maybe Germany again) will be totally self-sufficient on Green power much earlier than any other country - somewhere in around 15 or so years, from memory.

And yet here we are, on the sunniest continent of all, building new estates with no solar panels in sight. :doh: That would be a classic example of needing legislation for mandatory panels on every house. Put in some extra subsidies if necessary. The cost of a 7.5kWh array is around $8-10k after rebates, which is pretty small beer in the context of a new house build costing about $350-400k, especially given that these air-con hungry houses will repay that $8-10k within just a few short years and provide virtually free elec for >20 years after that.

Rather than building new coal power stations, or propping up filthy 50 year old ones for another 5 dirty years, wouldn't it be better to put those massive funds into building community-serving batteries. One very large battery complex in each neighbourhood with solar panels everywhere that is viable? It must surely be cheaper to build one large battery complex than one for every house. It would also be better for drain and distribution I would think (low vol consumer's batteries would be somewhat wasted).

Mass production is the way to get prices down. Battery tech is getting very close now.

What am I missing here?

There would have to be the inevitable exemptions for heritage houses and so on, but they are a pretty small percentage.

For a long time Germany was the leader in solar, but it was only 3-4% of their total. I don't know what it is now. Unfortunately the advantage Australia has is that coal is so cheap. It put solar at a severe disadvantage.

It the power industry we have thought that there would never be another thermal coal fired station built and I suspect not, but Turnbull has, possibly mischiefly, raised the prospect again. As the governments (state) seem reluctant to build stations it will be down to private industry and they will look at the market and say no way: No stability with governments running around like the proverbial chook.

The batteries are not close to delivering economic storage. The Tesla power wall is an emergency back up. The one in SA when complete will deliver 100MW for one hour and then it's stuffed. They have the smallest demand of the mainland states at up to 2500MW (peak). It will help but it is not an absolute panacea.

Regards
Paul

Regards
Paul

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 01:31 PM

The batteries are not close to delivering economic storage. I'm thinking that the tech will probably be right in about 2-3 years and then a couple of years of early adopters so pay for the R&D. That's why I think that batteries will be viable in about 4-5 years.

However, there's a couple of things that could expedite that with some Govt $$ input (perhaps all 3 levels of Govt). It is clear that we are going to have to do something about generating electricity, and very soon. Power stations take years to build (5 years? Longer?). By starting to mass produce batteries there would surely be a speed up in the R&D process. If the Govts were to fairly heavily subsidise the take up of batteries (in other words make the nett price about the same as post-early-adopters price) there would be a much higher take-up rate which would start to become a self fulfilling prophesy. The money for these subsidies would be from what they save in building coal-fired power stations (surely we are looking at some enormous investments, very soon).

My point being that we need the solution before it can be delivered via new power stations.

There would also be a side-benefit for WA - they have significant Lithium reserves (should quell a little of the political wailing and gnashing of teeth). :U

Power generation has been neglected for too long by both persuasions of Govt. SA last summer was a timely warning to everyone, and a glimpse of the future. The blackout may have been for different reasons, but it happened, and should be heeded.

I would have thought that it is because of increased population individual consumers, rather than industry, that we need these new stations. There is, after all, not a great deal of manufacturing happening here now. O'course, Climate Change and record temperatures aren't helping at all, with increased air-con needed.

There would still be a need for (new) industrial strength power, and I don't know what kind of clean generation can supply that. Pumped Hydro running off Solar arrays?

woodPixel

9th October 2017, 01:32 PM

I saw a story last week that said if we have widespread rooftop solar AND pumped hydro in a few hundred dams all our problems can be solved within a decade.

let me see if I can find it.

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 01:37 PM

I saw a story last week that said if we have widespread rooftop solar AND pumped hydro in a few hundred dams all our problems can be solved within a decade.Yes, out of a paltry 22,000 suitable sites nationwide for pumped hydro (which is 100s of times more than we need forever, or something ridiculous like that).

Pfffft. What are we thinking? What would the scientists know? Business & Govt is always right.

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 01:41 PM

Now as interesting as this discussion has become (and should continue), none of this has anything to do with excusing the disgusting behaviour of the retailers, and their rubbery discounts. Regardless, they still have to cope with the vagaries of the system, and could still have "fair to all" consistent prices. I'm sure their mathematicians could cope with working something out.

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 01:51 PM

This one Ev?
Pumped hydro storage 'could make Australia run on renewable energy alone within 20 years' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-21/pumped-hydro-renewable-energy-sites-australia-anu-research/8966530)

This explains Pumped Hydro pretty well:
Pumped Hydro: Australia's energy future? - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-13/pumped-hydro:-australias-energy-future/8267126)

This is excellent - explains the state of things very clearly:
4 Corners "Power Failure" from last May:
Power Failure - Four Corners (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/power-failure/8497716)

Chris, you will be very interested at 41.30 (power sharing)

woodPixel

9th October 2017, 03:30 PM

Yes, that was it.

wind, hydro, solar, wave, thermal, batteries = The future.

coal = death, cancer, poison and pollution.

fletty

9th October 2017, 04:08 PM

WRT smart meters, I don't quite understand how a retailer can reach out and shut off one particular appliance during a power pre-crisis. For example, in this 1920 house.......

As SWK says in a later post, they are not current standard appliances BUT, due to requirements to sell into markets such as California and (from memory) Oregon and several European countries, many appliances already have the necessary internal switching but we aren't aware of its existence! To use 'smart metering' and 'smart domestic networks' we have to stop thinking in current paradigms. I was heavily involved in a global smart grid project which will produce some fantastic results for humankind but ALL of the clever development work was NOT technical because ALL of the necessary technology already exists. The clever work was in human reactions and interfaces. There is a fantastic project currently being built in Stockholm (and I tried unsuccessfully to get it considered for Sydney's Barrangaroo project as well) and I could rave on for hours about it....... but won't here!
The best way I can illustrate it and stay within the theme of this post, is to describe a project carried out here in Western Sydney. A batch of air conditioners was modified by the manufacturer (although I still think that all they did was turn on the feature already hidden inside the unit) and these units were installed in (from memory) 200 homes in the 'hot belt' of Western Sydney. During a hot spell, the network provider could selectively turn off (and on!) the compressor and/or fan. In that way, when the compressor was turned off for 10 minutes per hour, and the fans left on, no customer reported the heat (nor discomfort!) increasing but the peak load on the network was reduced substantially. The key numbers behind this trial are that 92% of Sydney homes have air conditioners AND 27% of the network exists ONLY for peak loads. So IF all of Sydney's air conditioners could have their compressors turned off on rotation for 10 minutes per hour, then this 27% of the network could handle future population growth and not just sit there waiting for about 20 hot days per year? Another use of smart meters relates to my earlier comment about base load generators needing to have a flat load profile. To achieve this, before leaving home, you could load the washing machine and clothes dryer and go to work. The network provider, or even the generator, could see the total network load dropping at sometime during the day (usually between 10 and 11 am) and then remotely start all of the washing machines and especially, the clothes dryers, to even out the load on the network. In this way, the customer would be rewarded by having a lower tariff and the generator would lower the cost of generation resulting from operating at suboptimal loads.
If you want to see where this can lead, get me to tell you about the Stockholm Royal Docks project but make sure you have enough beer and food on hand for a 3 hour discussion on what can really happen IF the networks are able to do what CURRENT technology already allows us to do.
I will probably have more time than expected to write more about this soon because today's doctors visit might mean an operation on my hand and NO WOODWORK for 3 weeks :o
fletty

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 04:23 PM

I will probably have more time than expected to write more about this soon because today's doctors visit might mean an operation on my hand and NO WOODWORK for 3 weeks :oOh dear - the dislocated fingers were not in fact dislocated after all?

fletty

9th October 2017, 04:57 PM

Oh dear - the dislocated fingers were not in fact dislocated after all?

They were definitely dislocated ( I put them back in :tears:) but there appears to be ligament damage :down:

While I was writing my last epistle there were a lot of other interesting points made and they are being made much faster than I can read, let alone reply.
One thing however I must comment on is to caution against using the terms "clean" and "dirty" power. For example, France draws 70+% of its power from nuclear and claims it as clean power. Most green leaning pundits in Australia call that "dirty"? At the recent Copenhagen Conference, Denmark justifiable and proudly advised that they are 100% "clean" and renewable BUT, when the wind doesn't blow, they flick the BIG SWITCH and join the European network that is (from memory again) 22% nuclear? Pumped storage in Australia WAS claimed as green and "clean" and some retail customers even paid more for it BUT, as noted in epistle 1, at the end of the day, power was bought from the cheapest generator, and therefore most likely coal fired, to pump the water back up again!
I have filed some links 'somewhere safe' that are relevant to this I'll see if I can find them and post.
fletty

fletty

9th October 2017, 06:41 PM

Here it is...

https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/worldwide-electricity-prices-how-does-australia-compare/ii

fletty

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 07:15 PM

Here it is...

https://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/worldwide-electricity-prices-how-does-australia-compare/iiNot...quite... but it does yield an amusing message

fletty

9th October 2017, 07:24 PM

Hmmmm, try this one

Worldwide electricity prices: How does Australia compare? (http://www.energycouncil.com.au/analysis/worldwide-electricity-prices-how-does-australia-compare)

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 07:38 PM

Goodo. The original link just needs the /ii chopped off the end.

woodPixel

9th October 2017, 08:01 PM

20.4 cents per kWh is what we pay.

hmmm. Sounds optimistic to me.

IIRC my dad said he was paying 70 odd. He is near Bermagui.

i don't think Ff was complaining about 20 cents!

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 08:27 PM

i don't think Ff was complaining about 20 cents!Indeed not - just the tricky dodgy way they get to it.

FenceFurniture

9th October 2017, 08:29 PM

This is also a good report from 2014:
Power to the People - Four Corners (http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/power-to-the-people/5580878)

fletty

9th October 2017, 08:50 PM

20.4 cents per kWh is what we pay.

hmmm. Sounds optimistic to me.

IIRC my dad said he was paying 70 odd. He is near Bermagui.

i don't think Ff was complaining about 20 cents!

Dont forget that the table is for 2014?

Bushmiller

10th October 2017, 12:25 AM

I trot out with monotonous regularity a chorous of all power generation methods have some fundamental flaw. Hydro-electric power is no exception. The ecology downstream of the dam tends to suffer. Nothing comes for nothing.

I don't know he breakdown for Hydro stations that have the ability to pump water back up to the dam but certainly they can't all do this. My impression is that it only the larger installations. The primary use of hydro power is instant response in times of crisis or high demand.

Incidentally, this is the largest Hydro scheme in the world on the Brazilian/ Paraguayan border. Keep clicking the next page tab for more information.

ITAIPU - largest power plant on Earth - 12 600 MW of Hydro Power (http://www.solar.coppe.ufrj.br/itaipu.html)

There is a line down the middle of the turbine hall with nine machines on one side and nine on the other between the two countries. Interesting statistic is that they can generate full power for 44 days if there is no rain. They have a really big lake!

Regards
Paul

FenceFurniture

10th October 2017, 09:51 AM

Bear in mind that this is an "Opposition" proposal, and as such may never but realised, but it is in today's news (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-10/sa-opposition-releases-$100m-home-battery-plan/9032900).

EDIT: I'd either missed or forgotten the SA is going to build a Solar Thermal Plant at Port Augusta, which will be the world's biggest:
Solar thermal power plant announced for Port Augusta 'biggest of its kind in the world' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-14/solar-thermal-power-plant-announcement-for-port-augusta/8804628)

Bushmiller

10th October 2017, 10:33 AM

Interesting development in SA with the thermal solar installation The questions and comments I would make. Some slightly mischievous and some just curious:

What is the SA government's electrical load exactly?
Does Solar provide it 100% of the time?
What area do the reflector plates occupy?
How does the installation cost compare with other installations?

I work at a small thermal coal-fired power station. It has two units producing a gross output of 870MW. It cost $1.4billion when built in 2004 (completion time). The solar venture is 150MW costing $650million, if it comes in at that. You can see from the comparison cost per MW why solar has difficulty gaining a foothold and why subsidies had to be introduced to increase the volume which in turn reduces capital costs.

Incidentally, one aspect of both solar PV and solar thermal is the maintenance cost. It may be imagined as minimal and in a domestic context probably is, but in an industrial scenario those collectors have to be kept clean: All of them.

Nothing is truly free.

Regards
Paul

FenceFurniture

10th October 2017, 11:25 AM

Incidentally, one aspect of both solar PV and solar thermal is the maintenance cost. It may be imagined as minimal and in a domestic context probably is, but in an industrial scenario those collectors have to be kept clean: All of them.Surely there is more to it than that? Don't we have to consider
Construction/Installation Costs (inc cost of land)
Maintenance costs
Running Costs
Longevity of plant

to arrive at comparable figures?

Apparently a coal fired PS lasts about 50 years (in the case of Liddel, and I think Hazelwood), but maybe your station has a different life expectancy Paul? I have no idea what they expect out of the Pt Augusta Solar Thermal.

Chris Parks

10th October 2017, 11:38 AM

Where is the power going to come from to supply the inter connectors that they propose to build? Is more generating capacity going to be built? This is classic politician thinking 101, look at the government proposal, scratch head and get splinters in the finger tips and get a bright idea that will sell in the affected electorate, in this case SA. So if these transfer lines are built, most probably won't happen but let's shoot for it does, SA starts to need more power to handle the peak load, suppliers pull power and cause shortages on the Eastern seaboard as SA will bid more. yep, that should work!

woodPixel

10th October 2017, 12:40 PM

421752

Burn more coal. Thats the answer. Lets not pursue alternatives, cos CO2 isn't a problem...

BOM drops a special climate statement explaining why it was so hot in September (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-10-05/september-was-a-scorcher-according-to-bom-special-memo/9018402) and
Spring heatwave hits east coast, with temperatures soaring in New South Wales, Queensland and Victoria (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-09-23/parts-of-australia-to-swelter-through-spring-heat-wave/8977640)

and a clanger from yesterday: Its all too late, the runaway heat buildup may be irreverasable and cascade: https://insideclimatenews.org/news/05102017/forest-soil-co2-carbon-global-warming-climate-change-study

We will argue about "cost" of solar, but what is the real cost? I'd argue the cost is the very planet itself. The cost is our grandchildren going through 50 degree days in Sydney: 'Really awful': 50-degree days possible for Sydney, Melbourne, as warming worsens (http://www.smh.com.au/environment/climate-change/really-awful-50degree-days-possible-for-sydney-melbourne-as-warming-worsens-20171002-gyt512.html)

Its time we started getting 100% serious about reforestation and planning enormous carbon sinks. We need to stop producing CO2 - TODAY.

Coal plants are not the answer. Reduced consumption and alternative generation is.

ian

10th October 2017, 12:50 PM

Yes, out of a paltry 22,000 suitable sites nationwide for pumped hydro (which is 100s of times more than we need forever, or something ridiculous like that).

Pfffft. What are we thinking? What would the scientists know? Business & Govt is always right.Well despite your misgivings, in this instance Government is sort of "right".

The "22,000 suitable sites" is almost certainly based on the determination of a bunch of engineers answering the question "where does the topography, rainfall and geology support the construction of a new dam that could be used for pumped hydro generation." Those engineers probably have reservations about the economic, social and/or environmental viability of 21,998 of the sites nominated, but have been discouraged from nominating those sites that would be "unsuitable" if you look beyond simple engineering.

If you think back to the Franklin Dam Federal Election (1983) you will recall the national angst engendered by the Tasmanian Government's decision to develop a hydro dam at one of those 22,000 sites. Since then Governments have been much more "sensitive" to public opinion, and I'd wager real money that any significant pumped hydro system that requires a significant size new dam or three would face great opposition, and not only from the The Greens.

FenceFurniture

10th October 2017, 12:58 PM

Cockups & incompetence are now officially on an industrial scale.

Way back in post #1:

After my initial call to AGL my Gas discount went from 2% to 16%, and then in a subsequent phone call it magically became 20% (without saying anything), and Elec went from 6% to 24%.I had not had my regular Gas bill issued after 16th Sept (when it was due), and last week made a phone call to find out what was happening. They said they would chase it up and have the bill issued. It also surfaced that my Gas Meter had been read on the 14th, 15th and 19th Sept (perhaps they are going over to issuing daily or twice weekly bills for efficiency?).

So at about 9am this morning the bill was emailed to me. It was only for 68 days, up until the 22nd August, not ~16th Sept as it should be. Indeed, I had somewhat over-optimisticaly hoped that they may have been able to issue a "Final" bill, given that (as I understand it) that should be for 3 days later on 19th Sept.

Couldn't be that hard could it? Just a little waffer thin 3 days?

The bill is the usual jumble of lines that are not in any kind of logical order. The viewer that has been paying close attention to this saga may remember that I first contacted AGL on 23rd Aug and that is when the first of the new discounts was to apply from. Also, way back in post #1:

After my initial call to AGL my Gas discount went from 2% to 16% but only from 23rd Aug (I tried for the whole cycle), and then in a subsequent phone call it magically became 20% (without anyone saying anything).
This bill is for 15 days at the pre July 1 rates and old discount, and 53 days at the new skyrocket rates and but old discount (2%).

'Cept it's not. Like Basil Fawlty before me, "for once in my life I'm ahead - oh THANK you mmWAA!" (blowing a kiss skyward) (Mrs Richards/Broken Vase episode).
Just the six cockups in this bill:

All usage charges at a (never before previously mentioned ever ever ever) 15%, not 2% (fine by me)
All usage charges both before AND after July 1 are at the pre-July 1 rates (again, fine by me)

BUT curiously Daily Supply charges are correctly calculated at 15 days pre 1/7 and 53 days post 1/7 (meh)

A ZERO% Pay on time discount from previous Bill is $6.58cr (eh? how does THAT work)
My June 29 payment is split into two mysteriously BUT for once, all my advance payments are listed chronologically
68 days worth of my NSW Gas Rebate is also unnecessarily split into two payments of 15 & 53 days pro rata

The result of their miscalculations is about $40 in my favour (maybe they'll correct that with another bill 1.2, and I have a total of $271.23 credit.

What's next, I wonder?

FenceFurniture

10th October 2017, 01:17 PM

there IS more......

While I was entering the data of that bill into my trusty spreadsheet I noticed two more emails had come through.

Yep, two more bills, the first of which is for the last period of the first 15 days of Sept at a 16% discount - (remember that one?), and the last was for the middle period of final 9 days of Aug but at the last pre-retention discount of 20%.

And STILL no final bill, so they are actually going to send me another bill for 4 days at some point.

I think there must be about 6-8 cockups in that lot above, which makes a mere dozen or so for the day. A superb effort indeed!

fletty

10th October 2017, 01:39 PM

Coal plants are not the answer. Reduced consumption and alternative generation is.

Unfortunately that's not the complete answer either but it is usually at this point in the discussion that hysteria takes over and fact and physics takes a back seat. Having just spent 2 months in Europe, it was absolutely refreshing to see scientists and power engineers taking the lead in public discussion and not politicians, entrepreneurs, idealists and lobbyists.
The facts are that

all current, socially acceptable forms of renewable and/or 'clean' generation require storage to work.
the current storage proposals being enacted in Australia will have minimal positive impact unless there is the generation to charge them
(this is a point that I have not seen publicly discussed anywhere but.....) in Australia, by far our greatest load centres ( Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Gold Coast, Newcastle, Wollongong, Canberra, Geelong) are aligned North to South and so 'suffer' peak loads at identical times
this means that Australia will need much more storage than any other OECD country who can spread their load and generation across time zones,
we may have to spread our load centres by time so that currently available and socially acceptable technologies for generation and storage can cope (ie 3 different time zones for the 3 eastern states!)
Every load vs generation forecast for Australia that I have seen, has us running out of power anywhere from 2020 to 2025. It takes 3-4 years to build a significant solar generator and 8-10 years to build a new but marginally cleaner coal fired generator so, whichever way we go, we are going to run out of power.
we need 'human engineering' decisions and actions NOW.
The only generation and network capacity 'surplus' that we have to work with is lopping off our peak loads. IF we can prevent peak loads then quite a few load vs generation forecasts advise that we don't need to increase generation beyond our current level but nor can we afford to cut any current generation either.
SO, if we were to spread our peak times, (QLD, NSW and Vic on 3 separate time zones!), use (for example) smart meters and/or smart networks to cycle or shed time-portable loads such as air conditioners and clothes dryers we have a chance of avoiding blackouts in a few years.

Now, just another point of caution. All of the countries/societies that we admire and hold up as examples of already solving this parlous situation, have load profiles where WINTER is their peak load period. Copper/aluminium wired networks can deliver anywhere up to 20% more power in winter than they can in SUMMER. WHEN we solve it (because we have to!), we will be the first SUMMER PEAKING society to do so. Others society's successful paradigm changes often don't work here.
So, should we get back on subject now?