1900s homemade cabinet - touching up the finish

[Lappa]

I posted in the Pics forum photos of a cabinet made in Holland by SWMBO's grandfather. I'm repairing the top which had split back into its three sections.

The timber is quite pale but the finish dark


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I'm I'm not sure what the timber is but this a pic. of the front in full light

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The finish rubs off when a rag dampened with metho. is rubbed on it (tried on the back) so I believe its shellac. There are some scuff marks that I want to touch up and maybe given the whole unit a brighten up but without destroying its "uniqueness", so what is the best technique?

Cheers

[Blackout]

To this very amateur person it looks like an oak.
I'm cleaning 100+ yr old English table and using scourer with meths. Any serious knocks uncovered will be hit with hot sponge and water to expand it out again. Plan is to redo in shellac - 4 or 5 layers and then wax finish.

Cheers,

[Lappa]

The cabinet had a centre shelf which was painted with a matt reddish paint.
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After cleaning off the paint

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WOW - solid, one piece of ?? Oak??

I will need to stain it and shellac it to match the rest of the cabinet. Ordered Ubeaut's book on finishes.

[Bendigo Bob]

Sure looks like Oak to this amateur too.

Will follow with interest. A friend just showed me her 8 foot farmhouse table her late husband had in his shed for decades. He passed away at 82 and it was his Great Grandfathers so I'm guessing 1900 or prior. would like it at least to end up as a small breakfast table (huge bow in the top so likely). So I'm tuning in to everyone else's experience Lappa :)

[chambezio]

I'm fairly sure its European Oak. It could be either Red or White Oak but my money is on White Oak. Now that you are "stripping" the finish what you have looking you in the face is a surface that has a patina that is darker than the timber beneath the surface. If you were to sand the surface to remove any surface marks the lighter colour will be produced. I doubt if you could apply a stain to fix it. Blackouts method of wet rag and iron will fix any dents and keep that patina

[Lappa]

I only removed the finish on the shelf. I did this by removing about 0.5mm with the thicknesser. The shelf finish you see is after a run through the thicknesser. I'm leaving the rest of the cabinet alone apart from touching up some small areas hence my original question. There is minimal damage/dents but there are some borer holes on one of the side panels (has been fumigated years ago so inactive) and a couple of scrapes.
I'm fairly sure the rest of the cabinet has been coloured to give a walnut coloured finish but it's definately shellac. I will try and get the same finish on the shelf.
I have some Tas oak and the colour is a perfect match with the shelf, so I'll practise on that first.
I'm not sure whether to use blonde shellac with colouring tints or try the dark garnet? Shellac which I've read is used to brighten up walnut coloured shellac finishes.
Cheers and thanks for the replies.

Additional info.
Just received an email from Fine Woodworking re articles and videos on shellac finishes and how to mix and apply:2tsup: How fortuitous.

[Blackout]

I was just cleaning a silky oak sideboard that was thick in I assume wax. Sadly underneath appeared 3 rings one either side and the side of a cup. I think I managed to clear them out while cleaning with meths and steel wool. The 3rd ring is large and think. Cleaning with meths and steel wool just wouldn't do it. Then I tried some gentle sand paper (120) and still affect (except smoothing the surface once again :) ).

Tomorrow I will look again in better like and under magnifying glasses. I really detest using a sander but this time I may have to follow SWMBO instructions. I really only wanted to clean with meths until waxes removed and then apply a fresh layer of shellac before polishing.

Like you I may finally have to look at tinting some French polish to get the surface close in colour to the rest. I only intend sanding the one surface (if I must :( )

[Lappa]

I feel for you. Starting from scratch and finishing a whole project is one thing but repairing small to large abnormalities then trying to replicate the finish is another thing all together:(
That's one of the reasons I spent so much time aligning the top panels so I would have no finishing up there. There a 6 nail holes I have to fill and finish but other than that, my areas are small and the shelf will be inside :wink:
Keep us posted on your progress with some photos.

[Lappa]

Probably known by many but new to me.
Last night I drilled some holes in a scrap of tas oak and put fillers in both; one was walnut/dark oak and the other oak. I have read somewhere that you fill after you apply stain to match the colour. I'd imagine this would only be for fillers that didn't take stain and I wasn't sure about the fillers I had. The Wattyl oak was spot on and the Cabots walnut/dark oak showed a darker colour after drying overnight and being sanded back. Put some proof tint "walnut" on a rag and wiped the timber. The fillers both certainly take stain as the walnut/dark oak stands out like the proverbials with the filled patch much darker than the stain. The Wattyl oak blended in beautifully.

[Blackout]

Lappa,
Very helpful :)

[Lappa]

I was watching a fine woodwork video that came by email regarding using shellac. He recommended buying and using blonde dewaxed shellac. The reason for blonde was there would be little colour change. He also talked about getting garnet variety to freshen up full walnut finishes but not much was said re std. vs dewaxed shellac.
From reading, it appears that some final finishes such as poly won't go over std. shellac but will go over dewaxed shellac. So it would appear that dewaxed would be more universal although it needs a final costing of something to seal.
If I was just going to wax the finished item, would it matter which shella?. The reason is that my local paint guy, who stocks shellac, says dewaxed is getting very hard to come by and he stocks std. orange shellac. Is he having a loan?
Blonde shellac is apparently dewaxed and bleached.
So I'm turning to the formites that regularly use shellac to seek their advice.
The other question; my wife's Mother, who the cabinet came from, used to use polishes and maybe Mr Sheen so what would be best to clean the cabinet with to remove any traces before fleshing the coating?

[Blackout]

My wife told me the sideboard was looked after using " O'Cedar" furniture polish. I'm spraying mentholated spirits on the old furniture and rubbing the waxes or whatever has gone on. Takes some effort and you have to remove it quickly (before meths evaporates.) That's my experience.

[george mavridis]

I don't see any photos. Does this have anything to do with the photobucket issue?

[Lappa]

Only photos are in the first and third post. Their still there.

[A Duke]

Only photos are in the first post. There still there.


Hi,
Sorry I am not seeing any at this time.
Regards

[Lappa]

While waiting for the shellac to arrive, I stained the shelf with proof tint to match the rest of the cabinet. I decided to buy a small bottle of Feast Watson French Polish (shellac base) and use it on the shelf. If it didn't work or looked terrible, it was inside the cabinet and I could always do it again anyway. The French Polish and Shellac Flakes are dewaxed BTW.
This is the shelf after putting it through the thicknesser to remove the red paint.

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This is it stained and two coats the the French Polish

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Very smooth finish. One more coat then wait 24 hours to see if it needs a rub down with 1200 paper and more coats.

[Blackout]

Very nice. How much tint to the French polish? How are you applying it? I have a 1930 sideboard made of English oak veneer to redo the top on and that is the same colour.

I'm not doing so well with my Feast Watson French polish on the (we think yew wood) table. I think there is a reason it had been varnish with such a strong colour that you could see the grain. I keep getting areas that are splotchy. Even a complete sand back and careful start again went the same way. This time no going back. I will continue to layer the French polish and use the gentle wire between layers. Maybe it will come good as I end up with layers on layers instead of the wood itself.

I have also moved on to a large wardrobe of solid silky oak. This will be converted to a bookcase with internal LED lighting (unless SWMBO takes it for a wardrobe again :) ) . Still thinking what to treat it with and thinking about Danish oil :) With have to experiment with another piece of silky oak first.

[Lappa]

I stained the wood before putting on the French Polish. I did the same for the top which was really dark. Sanded it right back then stained it the same as the shelf so both match the cabinet colour. Much easier to control the colour by staining initially. I mix 50/50 with Colour Reducer for the first coat then adjust for the next coats if required. I ended up with approx. 60% walnut 5% brown Japan and the rest colour reducer for the final 3 coats.

Here's the cabinet top stained but with no French Polish

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I applied the French Polish with a new, clean, dense but soft bunched up cotton cloth - like a shellac rubber but without the filling.

I rang Feast Watson this morning to see if the shellac flakes and French Polish were dewaxed and we were chatting about whether to use French Polish or home mixed shellac for the cabinet itself. He was stressing the importance of a clean surface and mentioned a rub over with rag soaked in wood turpentine as opposed to mineral turpentine. This is also in the French Polish application data. Maybe there's a residue on your timber?
He also recommended home mixed shellac for the cabinet.

[Blackout]

Wood turpentine 80 That's all new to me. Googling seems to be telling me it is Gum Turpentine. I'll be trying that.

Thanks for the procedure on staining. I try with some samples. Feeling more confident with the idea of doing a light colour first then increasing darkness.

[Lappa]

Apparently it's nasty stuff. I'd be wearing a respirator and gloves. Do a search here - talk of kidney damage etc.:oo:
Amazingly, I tossed out a litre of it two weeks ago because of the all the warnings, now find out I need it:(

[Blackout]

Big thanks for warning me. I have been wearing respirator and ear muffs for sanding but I think I need to change the cartridges for fumes :)
I bought the colour reducer as well.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

1. Antiques were never finished with blond shellac. The Fine Woodworking article needs to be interpreted for what it is - general information for those who have never used shellac, and their recommendations are good for new furniture. Both of the main posters here are dealing with antiques, so the FWW article is not relevant - though the 'how to make a rubber' video could be useful to all. Neil Ellis's book (see Forums home page) covers it all thoroughly.
2. In the old days shellac came as solid 'buttons' and brown button shellac was probably the original and most used. Shellac buttons can still be purchased in Aus from Shines shines.com.au (http://shines.com.au/) These are what I use to repair Australian antique furniture.
3. I dislike the colour of orange flake shellac. I think it ruins antiques.
4. The most convenient shellac you can get comes from the forums' owner UBeaut. They have made-up bottles of various shellacs including white (I think they call it instead of blond) as well as 'normal' shellac and also sell flakes I think (I've never purchased those see point 3.
5. The wax in normal shellac helps to protect the timber, and it also binds to the final wax finish applied to give the warm glow to the finished product. I like UBeaut's Traditional Wax but any good furniture wax with a high Carnauba wax content (and low beeswax content because beeswax stays sticky and attracts dirt and dust). No, I am not affiliated with UBeaut in any way, I just like their products and use them.
6. The paint on the shelf was original and very commonly used on European cabinet interiors, though very rare in Australian antique furniture. Probably red lead so I hope you didn't breathe in the dust.
7. The secret to retaining the value of an antique is to do the least intervention possible and to live with the dings and dents - they are called patina and are part of what makes antiques valuable. For that reason removing the paint was not a good idea, but now that you have done it don't try to repaint. Likewise, for that antique table - if you cut it down you may as well throw it away or burn it in terms of what you have done to its value. Try the wet grass in the sun trick - take the cupped table top off, wet some lawn on a sunny day and put the table top - concave side down - on the grass in the sun. Voila the cup often comes out, top flattens. Mostly the top stays flat after you re-fix it to the base. Sometimes you have to seal the under-side with shellac to keep it flat, but that is not normally a good idea - see above.

[Lappa]

Shame you didn't respond earlier when the question was originally asked re freshening up the cabinet. What's done is done. At least the top is now in one piece. I will button it down unless you think nailing it down, like is was originally, is the best thing to do. I was pretty sure it was red lead as I used it years ago when setting up final drives.

The cabinet and top have not be finished as yet so there is still time. The interesting thing about the cabinet is that it is made from scraps of timber underneath.
One question - if one wanted to keep the depth of colour as it is and not go darker, wouldn't brown shellac darken it further?

[Blackout]

Many thanks Xanthorrhoeas,
All my early pieces are for learning on before I allow myself near the quality stuff. For instance if I think it is original coating (eg: shellac then I tread carefully and slowly). So far the pieces I'm touching this year have had some terrible coatings. For instance the sideboard I stripped first had some ugly modern type varnish. I figured even the doors were added later and have already remove the Tanderra glass and the round Philips head screws (oops forgot the modern white sticky paper, yuck). I have a few old dining sets to tackle but that will be gentle cleaned and where required reinforced. I guess for me it's a mixture of re-purposing some pieces and taking others back to as original as I can.

This morning I finished using Danish oil on a very heavy table top of local timber and will be aiming to put it on an old silky oak table frame. This is my re-purposing the table frame. The wardrobe I'm currently working on will have the remaining mirror left and replaced with glass and then shelving installed to use it again as a bookcase.

Much later I will recondition chairs belonging to the table that took me 6 months to clean and shellac (finished with lantern oil). The table was done using Ubeaut shellac and will be used for the chairs. Sadly some wood has split and while I will try to use the same wood I already have stock of other old chairs for replacement wood. These aren't any great pieces to anyone else just family sentimental value :)

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Yes, wood turpentine = gum turpentine = "natural" turpentine. It smells delightful but has been implicated in nasty effect like memory loss etc. However, I would not get too worried about occasional use in well-ventilated spaces. The problems arise with closed spaces and long use. My wife is an artist and artists' oil paints use so called natural turps for thinning and cleaning up. Her studio smells very strongly of it and I believe it has caused some memory loss problems, but she refused to use the air-scrubber I bought her because it was noisy!

I am really surprised that it is recommended that you use natural turps before shellac. The two are not compatible to the best of my knowledge, turps is an oily substance and would work with oil paint, shellac being alcohol solvent is not oily. Traditional French Polishing as I was taught it was to polish the wood with a rubber and metho before applying shellac. Turps under shellac is likely to turn it milky - as does sealing with Danish oil before shellac - nasty milky finish after some time.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Shame you didn't respond earlier when the question was originally asked re freshening up the cabinet. What's done is done. At least the top is now in one piece. I will button it down unless you think nailing it down, like is was originally, is the best thing to do. I was pretty sure it was red lead as I used it years ago when setting up final drives.

The cabinet and top have not be finished as yet so there is still time. The interesting thing about the cabinet is that it is made from scraps of timber underneath.
One question - if one wanted to keep the depth of colour as it is and not go darker, wouldn't brown shellac darken it further?

Yes, Lappa, I missed this one indeed, I must have been doing woodwork:D.
Brown shellac does impart a richer colour but, the layer is so thin that I doubt it would make much difference. The only way to test would be to try on another piece first, but my comments were meant as general advice/guidance and are based on my experience with Australian antiques. That's why I also mentioned the white shellac - it is your choice. We all often have to make our own decisions about such things as finishes and the 'client' often determines what we do anyway. I have even been known to finish furniture with poly because the client required it! (Not antiques though, never.)

For final finish and whether to nail or button down the top really depend on what you want. I would personally find it difficult to justify using nails and, in my experience, the top would not have been nailed originally. Tops were usually glued on with hide glue and had small glue blocks - sometimes triangular in cross section but often small rectangular blocks - positioned around the interior gluing the sides to the tops. The hide glue dries up in our difficult climate and the top detaches, often the blocks just fall off and are lost. You may find witness marks of glue lines if you look. If it were an important and valuable piece I would make new glue blocks and reattach with hide glue. Titebond liquid hide glue is convenient if you don't have pearl glue and a double-walled glue pot, and seems to have worked well over the three or so years I have used it on small repairs - I still pull out the glue pot for a big project.

However, your cabinet needs to be practical for you and its value is practical rather than monetary (European Oak furniture does not have a high $ value in Australia) so perhaps just button the top down.

The "scraps of timber underneath" is a very European feature, though I have seen it in early Australian furniture made in Tasmania where they have used pieces of European Deal pine packing cases in a carcase.

[Lappa]

Thanks.
Thats why it's all confusing, even from the same manufacturer :oo: Feast Watson instructions for their Shellac based French Polish, on their website is " ...Any wax build up from old French Polished surfaces should be removed by wiping with a cloth dampened with warm soapy water or pure turpentine".
The back of the bottle states the same but uses the words ".... or wood turpentine"

If a person didn't know there was gum turpentine as well as mineral turpentine?

Anyways, I need to put something on the cabinet and top so I'm tossing up whether to mix my own shellac or use the pre-mixed Feast Watson product - it certainly, to my eyes, gives a very smooth, shiny finish after 4 coats. What would be your recommendation Xanthorrhoeas?

Additional info:
there are no triangular glue blocks or witness marks but there are two rectangular ones, one on each side with signs of glue on them but no where else.
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I'll probably just reglue it with hide glue. I did make slotted panels and buttons because I didn't want to slot the existing carcase.

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Is this the brown button shellac you mentioned earlier?

http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/shop/search-by-activity/french-polishing/shellac-button-waxy-detail

[Lappa]

This is all new to me. Mixed up my shellac, tested it out on some scrap. Looked good, dried in an appropriate time according to multiple instructions on the subject, so on to the cabinet.

Before

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After 5 coats of shellac. The time I got around the cabinet once it was time for another coat so not a lot of time involved. Having not used shellac before, I find it very satisfying to use even though the application is reasonably regimental.

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I'll wait an hour, then sand back with 800 then 5 more coats then decide on the final finish.

[Blackout]

Totally agree on the regimental :) Looking good so far.

For my table it seems the more applications of shellac the less the problems. I really think I have been having reaction to something in the wood.

[Lappa]

In anticipation of finishing the shellac finish on the cabinet tomorrow, I'm looking at whether or not it requires another finish to help protect it. I'll leave it for at least a week before doing anything. It's not liable to have any drinks etc placed on top - just a Samovar set a friend brought back from Russia some 30 plus years ago. What do people recommend as a final coating on the shellac if any?

- leave it as is.
- wax
- other coating (Feast Watson recommend Floorseal oil)

Cheers

[Blackout]

This is where I'm still experimenting. MY favourite for silky oak is lantern oil. I makes it visually more attractive to me by making the lighter colours pop compared to the darker colours. The bees wax experiment just hasn't been great for me so far but I might be doing it wrong. Maybe when I move to Melbourne I will find opportunity to be trained by expert. :) I have yet to try wipe on poly :)

[Lappa]

Multiple coats of shellac and sanding then shellac and sanding etc and it's finished. Will let it stand for a week before using. There is no finish over the shellac.

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I buttoned the top down instead of glueing on the glue blocks, but the buttons and slotted rails are removeable with no change to the cabinet if I decide to glue in the future.

Thanks to those who followed and helped with this restoration.

Cheers

[Blackout]

I would consider a small area underneath to apply lantern oil to see the results. I was very hesitant to do this the first time but experienced members on this forum advised me to try and I loved the results.

Nice end. :) Same style of hinge plates as the wardrobe I recently finished using Danish oil.

Just spent the last day cleaning another wardrobe using mentholated spirits to remove the wax so that I can apply additional shellac to blend the scratches and knocks in.

[Lappa]

The interesting thing is they aren't hinges. They are decorations only - hand made and each top unit has VIII stamped in it.

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The hinges themselves are made with each side doubled over the hinge pin which is removeable.

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When you say "a small area underneath", are you talking about the inside base of the cabinet?
Also, what is lantern oil?

[Blackout]

Mine are ornamental as well. Seem to be a mixture of brass and copper (no expert here).

Hmmm ... couldn't find lantern oil anymore but I think the modern version is parafin oil.

[Blackout]

Oops, yes somewhere not so noticeable if you don't like it then you wouldn't continue using it. With the silky oak it really bad the colours pop.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hi, sorry I'm a bit intermittent here - I have too many things to do and am trying hard to find time to make a "mid-century-modern- style' sideboard for my daughter's birthday.

Yes, those are the shellac buttons, though I purchase mine from Shines Shellac.

You should always finish with a good coat of high-carnauba-content wax. Shellac finishes can be very hard wearing BUT they require a long time to completely dry out and 'set' before they are. You really should not place any objects on a new shellac finish for a couple of months. If the samovar is hot you will need something under it - like a piece of marble - to prevent the heat damaging the finish (Aldi often have good pieces of marble at reasonable prices).

I believe the Feast Watson recommendation for floorseal is bad.

The recommendation for using turps is for old surfaces that have a wax build-up, not in the process of doing a new shellac or French Polish finish.

[Lappa]

Thanks for the info.
I buy a bit off "bookworks" so it's good to know he has the buttons.
How long should I leave it before I apply the wax? I have Gilly Stephensons Carnauba Polish - is that suitable (also contains bees wax)
The samovar is purely ornamental.
I wasn't happy with the suggestion of floorseal either
I understood that the use of turps was for old surfaces with wax build up, not new surfaces.

Cheers and good luck with the build.

[Blackout]

Finally completed the clean up and treatment with Danish oil. The 2nd photo shows the fake hinge plate it came with.
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[Xanthorrhoeas]

Yes that shop/supplier is very useful.

Once the shellac has dried for about 3-4 days it should be safe to wax. That wax should be fine - they almost all contain some beeswax because, being a soft wax, it helps to spread and carry the harder waxes, but then you remove it when you buff well afterwards. My issue is just with pure beeswax as it stays sticky and attracts dirt. Many people support it because it is 'natural'. But certainly not natural to Australia (honeybees are imported) and Carnauba wax is natural too and much better. (The 'natural' thing is one of my bete noirs, Oleander sap is natural but if you get it in your eyes or ingest it it can blind/kill you!).

Another way to remove any wax build up is to use white spirit/drycleaning fluid (well ventilated area) as, unlike turps it doesn't leave any residue (that I know of).

[Xanthorrhoeas]

The carving and the hinge plates are nice Art Nouveau features. That period of furniture design produced many elegant items.

[Lappa]

Thanks for the info Xanthorrhoeas. Much appreciated.

[Blackout]

1920's ?

If I don't relocate for a while then I will post some pictures of cabinets, kitchen dressers, sideboards and chairs I need to refurbish and I want to do them right (no more practice.) The cabinet is black and I guess to stay authentic I will have to gentle clean and protect.

One day I hope to find a bookcase or two and they will be my real challenges :)