E 10 petrol

[ozwinner]

Welcome back.
Has anyone, or is anyone using the all new improved E10 petrol?
What is the Ethanol doing to the motor?
Is saving $5 per fill worth the risk of engine failure?

All these questions and more after these messages.

http://www.ubeaut.com.au/ubhome.htm

Ok, now over to you.!!!!

Al :D

[Auld Bassoon]

G'day Al,

I think it would be wise to check with the manufacturer of your vehicle(s) if ethanol at 10% or so is safe, as some rubber components can dissolve with ethanol, which does a whole power of no good to the motor's innards, and the leaks will probably be > than the $5/fill savedhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

Personally, I'm not going near it as my car "demands" PULP and gets it.

Cheers!

[ozwinner]

I havent used it, nor will I.

At $10,000 for an engine rebuild I cant see the benefit.

Al :eek:

[MathewA]

Welcome back.
Has anyone, or is anyone using the all new improved E10 petrol?
What is the Ethanol doing to the motor?
Is saving $5 per fill worth the risk of engine failure?

All these questions and more after these messages.

http://www.ubeaut.com.au/ubhome.htm

Ok, now over to you.!!!!

Al :D

Mohawk gas stations in Canada have been selling ethanol blended petrol for decades. Never heard that there were any thing to worry about.

[ozwinner]

Hi Matt,

What % is the ethanol in the Canadian fuel?

Al :confused:

[MathewA]

Hi Matt,

What % is the ethanol in the Canadian fuel?

Al :confused:

10% is what they're saying.

[ozwinner]

There has been all this media hype over the last so many years, where by the servo owner has been cheating and been putting ethanol into his tanks.

There by putting you motor at risk.

Al :confused:

[zathras]

I don't think it was ethanol being used, more like tylenol (sp?) which is more akin to paint thinners.

A dose of ethanol is sometimes a good thing, as in methylated spirits, as it sucks up any moisture in the fuel tank. A common bush trick if you've got a load of crap fuel from somewhere.

[ozwinner]

But wouldnt you just drink the ethanol, then your crap fuel doesnt matter?


Al :D

[gatiep]

In South Africa we have used ethanol blended fuel for years without modification to vehicles. If the ethanol or methanol content of the fuel is very high, the engine will have to be retuned as the air to petrol ratio is different to the air to ethanol or methanol ratio for 'perfect' combustion. South Africa has a plant, SASOL, for manufacturing fuel from coal which has a highish methanol content. It was not necessary to retune the engine to run on it.

Many years, maybe 30 or 40, I can't remember, there was a fuel called 'Union Spirits' that was sold in the coastal areas of Natal. It was made from sugar cane. It was basically ethanol and it gave a vehicle very good performance when mixed with petrol. It was never sold in the higher lying areas, I'm not sure if it was because of supply or delivery costs or maybe because at higher altitude the oxygen content of the air is slightly less. I remember going from the interior to Durban where I filled my Mini Cooper S 1275 with this stuff........... turned it into more of a rocket!!!!!!!
The locals in Durban used to mix it about 25% by volume with the standard grade petrol. In those years there was only one grade at most servo's.

Personally I doubt that fuel companies will supply a fuel that is not compatanle as they can be held liable for damages. Anyway, probably the only stuff with less ooooomf than the ULP would be kerosene! On my arrival in Australia I for a while thought that all the vehicle had pretty stuffed engines.............not a nice grey exhaust pipe ( the sign of a happily tuned motor where I used to live ) in sight, only black sooted ones. Wasn't long before I realised that it is the fuel doing it!

[zathras]

The Metyl component makes the drinking option quite unpleasant. Otherwise it would be very cheap vodka. hic @

[RETIRED]

This may help. It appears that there is no detrimental effect on cars made after the 80's. It is 43 pages long so be warned.


http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/ethanol/publications/review-non-automotive/pubs/review.pdf

[E. maculata]

I've run 2 high compression car motors, 1 a 6 cyl hemi with over 300 hp on ethanol mix, and the other a forced induction 12A rotary, both ran very sweetly thank you. most of my modified road bikes have at some stage (usually near wilowbank) have swallowed ethanol mix on modified jets at some point (usually at the 160 mph point :eek: ), in fact my 1127cc 150 hp suzuki has some in the tank right now. Ethanol does have some corrosive effect on cheap gaskets and seals, but burns with more controlled(?) slower flame therefore increasing efective torque with less stress on the bottom end and the piston crown, as an aside I always found the cars ran cooler as well. Sorta reckon it might be one of those scare campaigns that the media buy wholesale & then we occassionally get caught up with what sounds like fact, when in reality the truth has done a 180.
Only my humble opinion along with my moderate experience with the internal combustion engine and as a matter of interest some insanely fast competition vehicles run very close to 100% ethanol as a propellant :cool:

[ozwinner]

This may help. It appears that there is no detrimental effect on cars made after the 80's. It is 43 pages long so be warned.


http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/ethanol/publications/review-non-automotive/pubs/review.pdf


I got as far as page 3 and read this.


Fuel consumption theoretically increases when oxygenates are blended with gasoline due to the lower energy content of the oxygenated fuel. The theoretical increase in fuel consumption for a 10% and 20% ethanol gasoline blend is approximately 3% and 6% respectively. This increase in fuel consumption, due primarily to the reduction in energy content of the fuel, may be offset somewhat in by the enleanment of the fuel/air mixture.

So it all evens out in the end, cheaper fuel, but you use more of it.:confused:
So the nett savings are nothing? :confused: :confused:

Al :confused:

[E. maculata]

[i]
.

So it all evens out in the end, cheaper fuel, but you use more of it.:confused:
So the nett savings are nothing? :confused: :confused:

Al :confused: [/left]


Al don't feel bad about your state of confusion, that's just an inevitable consequence of being Victorian :p
However the savings that really matter could be in the atmospherical sense for our kids and grandkids, if you can look up what Dr Karl K (bowing deeply in the direction of this diety) says we should be doing with ALL of our crude supplies :cool: Not turning it into fuel would be a start apparently.

[mewzishen]

ZATHRAS: I think you'd find that "Tylenol" is a brand name of pain killer, as in Panadol. I'm sure you're referring to toluene (paint thinners)!

E. maculata: Yes, some "insanely fast competition vehicles" (drag racers) do use other than gasoline, they use METHANOL, not ethanol. The two are not the same.

[E. maculata]

E. maculata: Yes, some "insanely fast competition vehicles" (drag racers) do use other than gasoline, they use METHANOL, not ethanol. The two are not the same.


Yes at the standing 440 yard racing I agree there's specific classes of cars running methanol (Alchys), but even there I seem to recall there is a small percentage of additives in the mix, elsewhere in motorsport ethanol/methanol mixes of 85/15 are quite common (hillclimbers come to mind) as well, why would you ignore a 113 octane rating fuel that is readily available, but I digress for I'm probably wrong cause the oil companies tell us so.

[anthonyd]

why would you ignore a 113 octane rating fuel that is readily available

Dont let the marketing people fool you - octane is not a fuel rating - it is an element in fuel and has nothing whatsoever to do with ethanol.

Dont know if you can remember back in school when you did organic chemistry?

Remember one group of hydrocarbons is called the Alkanes (http://library.thinkquest.org/3659/orgchem/alkanes.html) and each one is determined by the number of carbon atoms. In accending order from one carbon attom upwards you have: Methane,Ethane,Propane,Butane,Pentane,Hexane,Heptane,OCTANE,Nonane,Decane...

Then there are the alchols which just have an extra Oxygen-Hyrodgen atom attached and are named similiarly: Ethanol,Methanol,Proponol....

So ethanol and octane are totally seperate chemicals.

This is of course based on the assumption that when the petrol comapnies talk about octane that they are talking about octane in the true sense of the word. If however it is just a marketing word then ignore my previous statement and regard it as an interesting introduction to inorganic chemistry only!