Repairing damaged chair carvings

[dadovfor]

One of my sons bought a couple of chairs in poor condition that require extensive repair. The chairs don't warrant big money spent on them and I'd like to do some elements ourselves ... as little more than enthusiastic amateurs.

I'm first interested in repairing the carving. One chair has a significant section of the top missing ... the other has some small pieces missing. I am wondering if it's possible to use some sort of 'bog' on the lesser damaged chair to fix that and then take a mould (sp?) from that to fix the more damaged chair. (I imagine the purists are cringing and would joint a carved piece to the chairs?).

If that sounds feasible, what would be the best bog / filler to build up and carve the first chair? And any tips on casting the top section of the other? Any feedback on that or a preferable method of attack would be appreciated.

I'm in Sydney, near Cronulla, if that suggests any supplies/advice that might assist.

Cheers

415135 415136

[Robson Valley]

What a shame. Wonder who the comical was who came up with this idea for amputation.
That wood is the display of serious carving talent.

1. Literature search in the diverse libraries of Sydney, interlibrary loans from Melbourne.
You nee to learn what the top center of chair #2 might have looked like. From that,
a replica for #1 wouldn't be a stretch.
2. It looks more straight straight than curved. In which case, use something like a Knew Concepts coping saw (Lee Valley) to cut off all the original,
have new work carved and then attached.
3. To be honest, there are carvers who do this sort of work all the time. I suspect it is not cheap.
But, it may be no more than the price of your setting yourselves up with tools to attempt to do the carving for the first time.
3. The back padding and the legs: similar damage?

[tonzeyd]

What's your definition of big money?

IMO looks like it'll be quite a significant investment in time and resources to get it looking half decent and not a dodgy DIY job.

Also you'll be looking at a new paint job to make sure it all matches

Plus don't think BOG will have sufficient holding power to hold onto the chair and/or retain its shape until it dries to allow you to carve it.

[dadovfor]

Thanks for the responses. Some answers in no particular order:

The chairs came from a Sydney night club that closed due to the lockout laws. Chalk the damage up to drunken patrons.

One chair has only lost a centimetre or two so that gives a good enough indication as to how it could or should look.

The back of the chair has a wide arc ... its not straight.

I spoke to a recommended pattern-maker who takes on furniture work in retirement. His estimate for repairing just the carving on the worst chair was upwards of a grand. So no doubt I could tool up for less.

A repairer/ upholsterer quoted over 4 grand to repair the chairs with some sort of head roll covering the broken carving. That's crazy money for what they are.

The damage shown is indicative of state of the chairs generally.

But my son likes them and there's a memories of nights out with mates in the alcohol soaked upholstery, so ...

[ian]

I've done a little bit of carving -- no where near as much as Robson Valley -- you could use epoxy thickened with wood flour as a replacement "ground" on the least damaged chair. Provided you did the shaping withing about 48 hours of molding the epoxy, it would carve sort of OK.

Tooling?
assuming you have little interest in spending the next 6 months searching Ebay and local markets, Good Carving chisels (new) are not cheap (upwards of $50 each at Carbatec) and I'd only be guessing as to how many different profiles and widths you would need. Profile numbers start at 1 and go to 17 (I think), and widths vary between 2 and 35 mm

[Robson Valley]

The sweep numbers (shapes) go up into the 70's in the London Pattern Book.
After you get done with the straight shank gouges @ #11, then come the long-bent, short-bent, spoon-bent and tracery-bent
Then do it all again but back-bent. The bent ones are really expensive.

I'll guess less than a dozen different sweeps and some tracery bent ones for the inside curves. Sizes in the 1 - 8mm range.
Two full sharpening set-ups for the straight and the bent gouges. Maintain carving sharp edges.

Find the people who do restorations of the really fancy picture frames. Show them.

[ian]

The sweep numbers (shapes) go up into the 70's in the London Pattern Book.
After you get done with the straight shank gouges @ #11, then come the long-bent, short-bent, spoon-bent and tracery-bent
Then do it all again but back-bent. The bent ones are really expensive.

I'll guess less than a dozen different sweeps and some tracery bent ones for the inside curves. Sizes in the 1 - 8mm range.
Two full sharpening set-ups for the straight and the bent gouges. Maintain carving sharp edges.


I spoke to a recommended pattern-maker who takes on furniture work in retirement. His estimate for repairing just the carving on the worst chair was upwards of a grand. So no doubt I could tool up for less.

tooling up might be more costly than first thought ...

[Robson Valley]

I wouldn't touch this job. I don't have the gouges (like to work bigger) and nowhere near the knowledge and experience.
I can say that doing 2 at a time is far easier than one-offs. You're buying the guy's expertise and a wee return on his investment in tools.
I can say that a patch will always look like a patch. All or nothing.
What would an antique dealer tell you? Are the chairs worth the restoration in the first place?

Last time I was back in Melbourne, ran across a business that was casting replica iron work for terrace house restoration.
Gilded, I don't suppose it matters what the filagree is made from, short of depleted uranium.

[dadovfor]

Thank you Canada!

Ian ... there's a couple of chips and gouges that I'd considered filling with sawdust and expoxy, but I hadn't considered that for the top section. Are most epoxies created equal?

Robson ... food for thought, thanks. And yes, tooling up does sound more expensive than I'd considered.

The final decision will be my son's. I actually doubt the chairs are worth much at all. But they have a significant personal value to him.

[Robson Valley]

The "bar-scars" might have some historical appeal in and of themselves. Or invent some glamorous fiction.

Epoxies: the open time, the working time, is adjustable. At least I did exactly that with Araldite for nearly 4 years (LaTrobe/Botany/PhD).
I'm fair-skinned and I've still got the itchy skin contact dermatitis from that crud.

[ian]

Thank you Canada!

Ian ... there's a couple of chips and gouges that I'd considered filling with sawdust and expoxy, but I hadn't considered that for the top section. Are most epoxies created equal?

the short answer is no.

my local epoxy store carries at least 6 different "brews" from System Three -- and that is before factoring in the choices for hardener, so something like 15 or 16 different brews all subtly different. Some of which can be thickened with wood dust (saw dust is possibly too coarse) others can be thickened with generic or propriety fillers.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Are you sure they are carved timber and if so do you know what timber they are? The reason that I ask is that they do not look like antique, hand carved chairs to me. In fact, they look like they may be cheap 'moulded' carving from somewhere in Asia or possibly Italy - made with a thin timber board coated with plaster/epoxy plaster and pressed into the "carved" shapes. Is that a possibility? One of them shows a pin or nail sticking out of the top - those are sometimes used in such moulded faux carved items as reinforcement for the moulding.

If they are timber and you want to reproduce in timber then have you considered getting someone with a CNC to copy the carving? I have no experience with CNC, so the idea may be completely ridiculous - but I have seen some amazing 3D timber carvings done with CNC.

[dadovfor]

They are timber ... beech has been suggested. There's actually evidence of past borer activity, but nothing active.

My guess is that the pin was used to secure a broken piece at some stage in its past life.

And I'm not sure how viable CNC would be? Might make some enquiries.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

European Beech has a very distinctive "fleck" from the medullary rays so it is pretty easy to identify. It is susceptible to numerous borers in its tree form but not susceptible to the common Lictus pinhole borer found in furniture. That may suggest it is not European Beech (known as Beech).

I have seen very similar furniture imported from Italy in the 1970's. It was always plaster/gesso surfaced and then "gilded" (with gold paint then rubbed to 'age' it).

I agree completely with your approach to avoid expenditure as far as possible. I have restored many antique items over the years, but, for some, I have had to walk away because they were too damaged to be repairable in a way that retained any integrity. I still suspect that these are not antique (and European antiques are worth nothing here in Aus at this time anyway, very sadly I must say as many are superb) and worth only the sentimental value that your son has for them.

I think that Robson Valley has the best idea here. Value the chairs as they are, "bar scars" included. Enjoy them and let him tell the story of how his mates threw him over the chair, breaking it, and then he threw the chair at them ... or whatever. Tall tales but fun.

If it helps, I have some superb Australian antiques with scars, candle burns etc., that I will never repair. The scars are part of their history, the patina that makes them great (to me at least). I have seen a lot of great furniture ruined by "restoration".

Good luck.

David