Repair 107 year old sash cord

[graham.murfett]

Gday all
Before I start pulling a 107 year old 8 foot high window apart, I thought best to ask for advice.
The sash cord has snapped on a window frame 2350h x 1040w.
The lower lift window is 1500h x 1040w.
I think it would be best to refurbish windows, frame etc whilst I'm at it.
So, where do I start, and what do I need to be aware of as I go.
I haven't had a house with sash windows before, so their new to me.
I now have plenty, so now's a good time to learn how to do it right.
Any advice is appreciated.
I've added some photos for context.
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[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hi Graham,

I can't see your photos, but I have repaired sash windows in the past. As with antique furniture repairs, I found it best to do the minimum absolutely necessary. Paraffin wax helps the windows run smoothly, even in weathered frames. Replacing the cord can be a balancing act, but, at least 20 years ago, good cotton cord was still available. I saw the result when people tried nylon and synthetic cord but it wasn't pretty. The synthetics are very sensitive to temperature and behave quite differently especially in the cold. Lumpy would be one word to describe using synthetic blind cord.

One of the issues is likely to be some rot in the joints. Consider using an epoxy timber preservative/hardener instead of cutting them open unless you are very expert in mouldings, glazing and joining. Th epoxy stinks so good ventilation is needed, but it can save a lot of pain.

Sash windows are great and can work well with a bit of care. Enjoy.

David

[Chris Parks]

You need DaveTTC, calling Dave.....Sometimes his internet doesn't work so a PM might be best to get him when he rejoins the internet.

[justonething]

Replacing a sash cord is a straight forward job and in your case of a lower sash, it involves the least amount of work.
There are plenty of youtubes to tell you how to do it, and this one is alright, not great though:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-sxrwNujok
The things to watch out for are:

Allow yourself plenty of time and start work early in the morning just in case you get stuck. I've replaced plenty of sash cords when I started it took half a day. Now I can do it in about half an hour.
Make sure you get the right diameter sash cord. You may also need the parting bead (https://www.bunnings.com.au/30-x-10mm-western-red-cedar-parting-bead-per-linear-metre_p0100541) - the dividing bead that separate the two sashes. Measure all the sizes before going down to the timber yard. If you are careful or lucky, you may well be able to re-use the existing one. Also check if the pulley rotates freely and if it needs replacement. Also some galvanised nails wouldn't go astray. Get proper sash cords, no nylons. Bunnies have them.
You could either use a solid scraper (one that doesn't flex) or a butt chisel to pry out the stop bead. Right you have to learn how to use a chisel the ways that chippies do, hit it with a hammer and use it as a pry bar, not as some sort of paring tool like woodies do. :)
First take off the vertical stop bead on the side where you need to replace the sash cord. The stop bead is usually held by 3 nails, 1 in the middle and 1 near the top and 1 near the bottom. drive the chisel in close to the middle and slowly open up a wedge. keep going and remove the stop bead once its all loose
Once you remove the stop bead from one side, you should be able to slide the bottom sash out.
Quite often to get to the panel cover behind which the weights are located, you also need to remove the parting bead in the middle. The youtube shows a fairly loose parting bead, probably being removed many times. With many layers of paint, its difficult to get a scraper or chisel behind it and lever it out. The way I do it is first, I score the paint with a utility knife all around the joint to break the seal, then I drive a chisel to bite into the side of bead and slowly lever it out.
To find the nail that holds the panel cover together behind layers on paint, you might need a magnet or metal detector.
Use the existing sash cord, even if it is broken to work out how long your cord needs to be.
Tie a good knot, like a figure 8 knot (http://wellhungwindows.com/sashcord.html) to fix the cord to the weight.
Put the things back together and you're done.


By the way, don't caulk it like that guy did.

[Simplicity]

What Paul said perfectly but when removing the stop bead.
I insert two old paint scrapers then I force my chisel between them.
Saving bruising the timber.

Cheers Matt

[KBs PensNmore]

Hi Graham,
From memory, Bunnings or any decent hardware store will/should have the cotton sash cord.
To replace the sash cord, you'll need to remove the window concerned. This involves removing the beading along the edge, inside the room, this is quite easy to remove, the hardest part is cutting the paint holding both parts together. From memory, I used a sharp knife, something like the ones with a disposable blade, or a proper Stanley knife, something that won't break. Use a broad chisel or similar to get between the beading and frame work, the nails will probably pull through the beading, so that's no biggie.
Once you've both sides of beading off, the window can be removed. The side that the cords still OK, will need to be cut, probably a 2 person job, unless you've a table or stand to support the window on. On both sides of the frame, at the bottom, there should be a piece of timber that pulls out, this is normally about 300 mm (12") long, it will/should have a 45 degree cut on the top, I think the top comes out, try tapping gently with a hammer on the bottom, you might need the knife again to sever the paint. Once these are out, the weights will be seen and can be removed.
Remove the old cord on the window, usually some galv headed clouts, place the new cord in position and carefully nail it back on, trying not to use the existing holes or break the glass. Put the cord through the pulleys at the top and put the window back in place, you'll need something to hold the window in the UP position. This is so the cord can be fixed to the end of the weights, without the support, it will be virtually impossible to do the next part. Pull the cord tight, make sure you don't pull so tight that the window support comes away, feed the cord through the top of the weight/s and tie off, I usually run the end of the cord through the eye of the knot again, so that it enlarges the knot and won't/can't be pulled through the eye in the weight. The weight should finish up about 25 mm (1") from the bottom of the casement. While the window is in the UP position, nail the beading back on, adjusting the beading as the window comes down, make sure it's not too tight that it jambs, or too loose that it rattles or becomes drafty. If it becomes sticky, rub some candle wax on the beading sides of the window.
Hope this helps.
Kryn

[Joseseat]

God I love old houses. How good is that window. Being a carpenter and working on a lot of old places like this you really appreciate what craftsmanship is. New houses have nothing on these old beauties.

[justonething]

Matt, would your chisel be a bench chisel, paring, mortise, firmer, butt or dovetail?
with a tang or socket handle?
Ok, I'll put that woodie part of me back in the bottle.

[graham.murfett]

Thanks for all the info guys.
I'll get started today.
I think I may replace the sash pulleys while I'm at it.

[KBs PensNmore]

I doubt that you'd find replacement unless they're second hand. Take them out, give a bit of a clean up and lube. Very little to go wrong with them.
Kryn

[justonething]

You can find sash pulleys easily enough, Elraco (https://elraco.com.au/advanced_search_result.php?Submit=Search&keywords=ash&search_in_description=1&sort=5d&sb=price&st=d&currency=AUD&page=9) sells a variety of them, as does a crowd called restoration online (http://www.restorationonline.com.au/sash-pulley-sash-pulley-for-double-hung-window) in Sydney.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Whoopeedoo, what a beautiful window. You lucky person! Dave TTC is an expert restorer ... but he is in Victoria. Fortunately, you have received some excellent advice here to do it yourself.

I envy you the house that has such windows. I once had a full sandstone house 1888 with beautiful windows in Tasmania. Now I just have a Griffin and Knowlman slab on ground. It is very liveable but lacks the charm of the older house.

David

[graham.murfett]

Thanks for the comments.
The bay windows are even more impressive.
But I do now have the feeling that I will want to refurbish all the windows, which could take years!?

[Joseseat]

What does your house look like from the front Graham? The view out the window to the verandah intrigued me. I love old houses, I'm only 30 but I can't stand new houses (volume built ones)

I'm a carpenter in Melbourne and all our work is generally adding rather expensive architectural extensions to period homes, which I like, the addition of the modern to the period. My partner and I bought an 1892 Victorian a couple of years ago and I have a few windows to do like yourself, which I've been putting off. Haha.

[graham.murfett]

Gday Joseseat
North side view (current)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170506/fc9f50db5834bcdb3d2fb8a5f4add6fe.jpg


Front view, west (15 year old agent's photo)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170506/45594c8af5a28e6dd360d7dcd2dbf5e1.jpg

Front bay window (1 in 6 Windows not painted closed)
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170506/a2c405b6ebcf6acd45298738983dd75a.jpg

[graham.murfett]

This is getting messy!
Lotsa paint holding it all together.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170506/1f89211b51f39aa3b9e33c584e130ded.jpg
A bit of infestation over the years.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170506/769c210f110691815375eb8a49b8d95a.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170506/956ae85dab02ddbcf6796bd4653e1f21.jpg
I'm gunna need some recommendations for rust removal [emoji848]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170506/5ca918c5beb4447599b9e9c0677b6766.jpg
2 x large weights
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170506/fee3e220bfb3b3f48a5c8471d0762046.jpg

I also need recommendations to remove lotsa paint from architraves, moldings, etc.

[woodPixel]

For these jobs Ive a Fein oscillating tool. Its very good at getting into the corners.

I love your house!

[graham.murfett]

Thanks WoodPixel

We love it too, but I'm not a great fan, at the moment.

I opened up the other side...
One of these things is not like the other!
And there should be 4, not 3[emoji51]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170506/72f3d8c065f8bd5bd8acc20bbcafba95.jpg

[graham.murfett]

For these jobs Ive a Fein oscillating tool. Its very good at getting into the corners.


Timely, I have created a "which multi tool do I buy thread" in powered hand tools[emoji1303]
I presume your recommendation is Fein!?

[woodPixel]

Timely, I have created a "which multi tool do I buy thread" in powered hand tools[emoji1303]
I presume your recommendation is Fein!?

Ill reply in your thread, but I think the Fien is a very nice tool.

I've renovated a few houses (5) and for the last one it really did a good job on all the corner bits. Sanding back a three-layer-horrific paintjob on door jams, window sills and doing tiling it worked very well. Its not an industrial sander - I used a Festool Rotex 125 for that part, but for the corners and details it was great.

Very noisy and needs hearing protection, but recommended.

Now to find your thread so I dont poison this one!

[graham.murfett]

So I have weighed the larger weights and the larger window.
The 2 weights equal 16.4kg, and the window is 19.6kg.
Does that sound right?
Does anyone know what the comparative ratio formula is?
The window doesn't stay in the full up position.
Thanks

[woodPixel]

You'd think they'd want to be even, or fairly close. They need to counterweight, like a drawbridge :)

I saw some out at the local builders recovery centre and the weights looked like they could be added to in a modular fashion, a bit better than your taped-on bolts though :)

[Bohdan]

I would think that at some stage the glass has been replaced with a new thicker and heavier piece.

I think that the balance should be equal and you will need to add some extra to the weights. Might need to buy a big bag of large washers to slip over the cord or if you can get some welding done add a piece of bar to the existing weights.

[graham.murfett]

The saga continues.
It's not that I have bitten off more than I can chew; rather the meal is bigger than estimated.

Painted 7 times. 6 times by bad painters. Last paint job wasn't even wiped or sanded[emoji33]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170507/00931752ac7ffe8f445d3bdac5c6c5fe.jpg
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Estimating by the amount of paint I had to remove from around the upper sash window, I don't think it has been moved for 50 years.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170507/ff7f0d0607ef49cfbd9bc570e4bd1688.jpg

[graham.murfett]

So my newest head scratcher is how do I replicate the architraves?
Removing paint by any means isn't going to be enough.
I'm going to need more architrave due to previous infestation. The bad example weighs a lot less than the good example.
Does anyone have ideas?
I have a router table, and combo-thicknesser etc but not a moulder.
Is it worth getting a profile made, as I presume over time I'm going to need to replace more existing architraves. This shape is around all doors and windows.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170507/c47cd84f46ec041e70c10180e8d3d2fa.jpg
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Which paint stripper and rust removers do woodies recommend?
Thanks

[Joseseat]

Having a custom architrave made up is rather expensive, the initial set up of the machine being the most expensive part. If the damage isn't too significant I'd spray the affected area with earls wood hardener to solidify the soft timber and then crack out the builders bog.

If you do decide to get them custom made to match the existing profile I would ascertain exactly how much material you need and get it all done at once, as the tooling of the machine can cost $300+

[Joseseat]

I definitely wouldn't be replacing the architrave because of those borer holes. Timber filler will make short work of that. We rarely replace old with new in the homes we work on, it just looks wrong. Old should look old, character is nice.

[woodPixel]

Hahaha! I remind ye of this (https://www.woodworkforums.com/f13/multi-tool-recommendations-213955-post2022326#post2022326): "well, my wife will tell you it turns into a reglasing, a complete paint job, replacing cornice, paint the room, polish the floors, new electrical switches and hinges on the doors.... "

If it were me, well, I'd first have all the old paint removed with a soda blaster. It will only remove the paint/bog and leave the timber completely unharmed. IF you are thinking about doing all in the house, they are a good thing to buy. One can make up a clear-plastic "booth" to reuse all the media 100 times.

For the recreation, I'd make new boards by dividing the job into sections. If you have a router table and tablesaw, I'd say you can get pretty close with judicious choosing of fancy router bits from MLCS. They seem to have a better selection of weird styles than say Carbitool (which are excellent). Perhaps carbitool will make you a profile to match? (do bits 3+4 as a single bit?).

412005

[justonething]

Graham
You certainly have done a lot more than what is required to change the cord!
You have to be careful with removing paints that's probably more than 50 years old. They would all be lead based. If you are sanding, be sure to wear proper mask that is certified to capture lead particles. Alternatively, paint strippers can be used. And for the sashes and casings that are loose, using a paint stripper bath is a good alternative.
Your lead light in the upper sash is much heavier than the lower sash. and so it will need heavier counter weights.
Ideally each counter weight should be half of the weight of the sash, but it could be a bit lighter, but never heavier. You can adjust the weight by how difficult it is to open vs to close your window. If it is more difficult to open than to close, increase the weight, and vice versa. The weight should be equal on both sides.
Having borer holes are no reason to discard your casings. They look alright to me from the photos. Why would you want to replace them?

[ian]

:whs: regarding the lead paint.

and be especially careful if you have pregnant females or young grand urchins around.


I don't know about Brisbane, but in Sydney it's possible to get a "metric match" for mouldings like yours.
The match is not exact, but provided it's not a mating part -- i.e. it's in a different room or on another window -- without a profile gauge and ruler no one will notice the slight inconsistency.
When I did my 1890s terrace, I installed all new architraves in the kitchen and recycled the recovered bits to replace missing bits in other rooms.


Buying the router bits required to make your own mating profile, can get expensive very quickly

[woodPixel]

ah, yes, I forgot to mention the rosettes.

Here is a match: pollums, hardwood, lumber, moulding, crown, crown moulding, baseboard,casing,chair rail,flooring,rosettes,trim wood, oak, ash, cherry, poplar, maple, hickory, walnut (http://pollumsnaturalresources.com/rosettes.htm)

and cutters: https://www.amanatool.com/59004-rosette-cutter-in-wooden-box.html and https://woodshopbits.com/products/rosette-cutterhead and https://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/rosette.htm etc

[graham.murfett]

Thanks for all the feedback & info.
Initial thoughts to replace them is due to extensive loss and some edge to one edge of architrave, also I will be retiring a bathroom and could add same architrave to door and windows in that room.
Blades will cost ~$500 + $150 setup + material [emoji33].
I have removed some paint so far on tablesaw & router table with dust extractor and fume grade mask [emoji40].
So, I'll continue stripping paint & bog up. See how it goes.
Is there a recommended paint stripper? I have some Diggers Industrial PS.
I'm gunna need rust converter as well. This I'm not familiar with.
Thanks for the info on the rosette cutter.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170508/f52b9cdd50fea6bff2bdf08706d2843e.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170508/81300f1a9da960f834d8ad426e4e642b.jpg

[justonething]

That architrave looks like wheat bix.
Paint stripper : I like solvent based strippers. There are two types, the traditional Dichloromethane or the more recent ethylene glycol. I have good results with the former. But the latter is supposedly less toxic to the environment. With both types, the biggest problem is that the solvent evaporates quickly before any blistering is complete. It is best to cover the area after liberal brushing of the stripper with plastic or glad wrap to delay evaporation.
De-rusting: There are 2 alternatives, either via electrolysis (http://www.htpaa.org.au/resources/rust-removal) or application of acid. Electrolysis is the cheapest method, but it involves the use of 12V dc supply. Acid is simpler and citric acid is the safest to use. I think there are several posts in regard to using citric acid. The cheapest way to get citric acid in bulk is to get the White Knight Concrete Etcher from mitre 10.
Using a filler: To get the correct profile for your architrave, you can make yourself a mold. All you need to make a mold is some contact book covering, a can of polyurethene foam spray. Find a good bit of your architrave and cover it with contact. Spray a bit of cooking oil on the contact to stop the foam from sticking. Then spray the expanding foam on to the area of interest and watch it expand. Once its set, peel off the contact and you have a mold. I would also recommend using epoxy resin (http://boatcraft.com.au/Shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=15) as a filler. I find that builder's bog tend to come off after a few cycles of expansion and contraction of the timber substrate.
Also that sash pulley looks massive, you'd be better off keeping them.

[graham.murfett]

Justonething

There are some [emoji1303] work arounds there.
I'm def gunna try the mold.
Is it worth trying the same idea with builders bog as the mold?

[Chris Parks]

Find someone who does Soda blasting, way quicker, less hazardous, far better result for re-painting.

[justonething]

Only if you have a lot of builders bog that you don't know what to do with.

[graham.murfett]

I meant the big as the mold negative

[justonething]

Graham I knew what you mean. My concern was that it was a bit tedious to spread bog evenly to build up a profile. So I just assumed you would only do it if you already have it on hand.

[Simplicity]

If you do go the bog way.
Make a template out of some MDF or something similar.
To spread your filler(smoth it out).

Cheers Matt

[Lappa]

There a number of businesses that specialise in period mouldings like this one

https://www.australianmoulding.com.au/

Only problem may be, if you like real wood, some only work in MDF.

[graham.murfett]

Under all that paint, is some nice hard timber.
As much as I would like to go au naturale, I think gloss white oil base top coat might be the go. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170516/b08a93c84c6def539e00965d61575b69.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170516/d0d22fbd9ad74369025285ff93befc2f.jpg

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Lovely house indeed.

It is a personal preference, but I find that the Amplimesh/ shark mesh security really jars with the antiquity. The simple, almost invisible black painted security/insect 316 stainless steel mesh sometimes sold as Supermesh or Crimsafe or Invisi-guard (and other brands) disappear and do not mar the beauty of the old windows. I do realise that they are also expensive. In Tasmania we lived somewhere that was mosquito-free so were able to have the windows unprotected but I know that is not possible in many parts of Australia (including our current house).

[justonething]

I might be wrong but I think its merbau.

[rwbuild]

Silky Oak

[graham.murfett]

Thanks for the thoughts.
The timber is definitely Silky Oak.
The ugly security frames will be replaced with bespoke security frames, ala invisible screens.
But the mesh is expensive so time is part of the equation.
Personally, I can't wait to replace the current screens.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hi Graham,

Your screen replacement strategy sounds like a good plan.

The Silky Oak timber (as you state) is almost certainly Northern Silky Oak, not Southern Silky Oak. Northern Silky Oak (Cardwellia sublimis) came to replace Australian Cedar after 1900 because we wasteful people had cut down the vine forests and (almost) exhausted the commercial supply of cedar, whereas at that time the North Queensland rainforests had been opened up and had those massive Northern Silky Oaks just waiting to be cut down. As a bit of useless information: My father told me that most of those trees were cut out by the 1950's too, but because they were felled by the cutter standing on a board inserted in the trunk above the buttress level (making far less work to fell them) the original cutters had left lots of quite tall stumps and buttresses behind. The next wave of cutting came in the 1950's with powered saws/chainsaws and the wonderfully figured butt timber was released onto the market.

[graham.murfett]

Thanks for the info.
It's always good to get some knowledge of the origins of house timber.
Particularly start of the 20th century, when my house was built.

[graham.murfett]

It's been some time since I finished this window job, except for fitting the rosettes...
So, I thought I should post some 'what happened' pics, because without pics, it never happened ;)

It was too expensive to get cutters made, then have FJ pine delivered, so I had to DiY

I had to make a negative to repair fill the borer and other age old damage to the 140mm arcs
416569

I tried many different fillers. Smooth coat worked better than all others. It was a PITA though
416570

Then sanding it back to shape
416571

416572

Be careful of wind & big windows! $140 & half a day to repair :~ :doh:
416573

Restored pulleys
416574

Windows have never worked so easy!
It cost $34 for 40mm steel bar to replace the missing weight.
416575

Better than a bought one! :roll:
416576

It took 6 weeks, in between paying jobs, but we got there!
Thanks for all your input :2tsup:

[rwbuild]

A credit to you for patience, perseverance and attention to detail, an excellent result :2tsup:x10

[Xanthorrhoeas]

That is very impressive work and attention to detail. as rwbuild says, a credit to you indeed. You must have some skill with a CNC or similar to make those great acrylic patterns?

One thing to be wary of is that the original cast iron weights would not have rusted significantly (surface only) because iron is not very reactive with oxygen (in human lifetimes) But, once it has had carbon added to it to make steel it rusts rapidly and deeply. So, a steel weight will rust away badly unless you have cold galvanised or painted it.

[Fuzzie]

Admirable work! If it was me I would have been inclined to go with new reproduction 120mm architraves and added a outboard 20mm strip to make up the width.

[graham.murfett]

Thanks for the kind words guys.

That is very impressive work and attention to detail. as rwbuild says, a credit to you indeed. You must have some skill with a CNC or similar to make those great acrylic patterns?
I made the acrylic patterns with my bandsaw and hand files. It took a while, but I got there :)
It will take a while for rust to get through 40mm of steel bar. Especially in a dry environment.
I couldn't match the profiles, so I decided to repair, rather than have something different. Next time will be much quicker, now I've figured out what to do and made some tools to make life easier.
Let's hope I don't lose them!!!

[Fuzzie]

It looks pretty close to profile SA09, but granted it would take a bit of work to rip it down and widen to 140. However if you have a lot of windows to do with that much borer damage I'd be tempted...
416628

[graham.murfett]

Hi Fuzzie
The other problem with Finlaysons mouldings, is my arcs are also 1" thick.
Problematically, my doorways also have transom windows, so I would need 45+ feet (~15 metres) to replace all arcs just for one doorway. Even more for the entry & foyer doorways :(
So, whilst it may be easier to buy new, I can find spare time to repair, easier than I can find spare cash to replace.
Due to the potential effort required for each repair, I wont be repairing/restoring anything unless I have to. It's a situation of "if it aint broke..."
So until I need to repaint or repair, any borer holes or other disasters can stay hidden behind 100+ years of paint.:rolleyes:
I do appreciate your interest though :2tsup:. It is a great example of an early Queenslander with some very ornate features.
Someone had some money, when it was commissioned to be built.

[Fuzzie]

Hi Graham. Yeah I know the time vs money equation. I was just trying to give a lead if you needed it. I've been down the same route a few times :C. Started on a Victorian terrace with BIG mouldings in Melbourne, then a 40's wartime number in Brisbane with wide stepped splayed mouldings. Now in a 70's house on the Gold Coast. You would think thinks get easier but they don't.

I'm in the process of replacing some worn out aluminium sliding doors and windows. Do you think I could find a couple of lengths or tongue and groove cypress flooring to patch around the door opening? They don't sell that anymore on the coast. :no: Then there were the architraves to replace. In the 70's bullnose architrave was 45mm wide vs the current 42mm. The 42 wouldn't suite for a lot of reasons, and you can't even cut down 66mm arch because of the hollow moulded into the back.:shrug:

Take care,