7008 Major Problems

[Tegmark]

I'm having big problems long after the final coat has cured & been fine wet sanded, then polished up to a high gloss.


The simplest way to describe the problems is a few weeks to a month after, the top coat starts to change. This has happened on
various woods like tas oak & pine. Sorry no photos as it's to hard to capture.


example 1 on Tas oak. Imagine the look of just 2-3 thin coats without grain filler, you would still see the faint holes of the grain
as they are not yet filled up. This is an example of what my pieces now look like, its like the overall level of the clear dropped
down over time. Whats looks to be happening is the top layer of the overall clear has sunken a bit right above where there is a pore in the wood
To fix this I had to fine wet sand 1200grit then re polish up. This problem has happened on tas oak that had grain filler (watered down wood putty) & no grain filler (just more coats until mirror flat).


example 2 on pine: The overall top layer rippled up sightly & you can actually see the reflections are rippled & feel them to. Again 1200 wet sand & re polished fixed this.


example 3: Over water based wood filler that filled up a deep crack, the clear will sink down slightly right around the filler only, after a wet sand & re polish it starts to slowly happen again within a month or so.


On most pieces the overall mirror sharpness is reduced after a few months even if no obvious flaws are visible. I confirmed this by re polishing an small area & comparing it to the original area with my eye.


So far this stuff doesn't stay the same way after I have detailed it.


Looking to understand why this is happening? Maybe bad product from store? too many coats? polish product attacking clear coat?


My usualy method of applying this stuff:
First a thinned seal coat on raw clean wood then a very lite sand when dry.
Apply more coats with lite sanding in between keeping with manufacturer's time recommendations & cleaning each coat before a new coat with wax & grease remover or isoproyal alcohol.
I have found it is actually best to thin this stuff down by 30% That's the magic number when it really levels out, in fact even at 20% it doesn't level well. But my problems also happened when not thinning this stuff at all.
When mixing the two parts I usually get it 1:1 within a few mm & stir very well & allow to sit for 5-10mins before brushing on then another stir again. I usually go for 4-5 coats.
I thought about contacting manufacturer support, but last time their help with pinholes was unsuccessful.

please help, thanks.

[Xanthorrhoeas]

My apologies, I use traditional finishes. Do you mean the below? If so, I'm out, no help sorry. Wattyl Estapol Flooring 7008?

[Tegmark]

My apologies, I use traditional finishes. Do you mean the below? If so, I'm out, no help sorry. Wattyl Estapol Flooring 7008?



Hi, yes that is the stuff.

[q9]

I have never experienced issues as you describe.

However, my application method is a little different. I barely, if at all, thin my first coat. Maybe not even the second. I also use nothing but rags and perhaps a little water to clean between coats. and then super thoroughly dry. Don't use any alcohol or solvents as you don't know how they react or interact with 7008 while it is in a pre-cured stage. It becomes stable after a while, but a LONG while, not between coats.

[Arron]

I haven't had the problems you mention either, though I have used the product a fair bit.

I can't help wondering if maybe the problem is that you are using a DIY level, utility product whose main virtues are hardness and waterproofness, as a fine finish.

I have had good results on floors, vanity tops and bathroom trim. They were basically a case of apply several coats, light sanding between but only if necessary, then leave alone. They were a good return for the effort involved but I never tried to buff up to a mirror finish - it seems completely contrary to how the product is marketed.

Buffing poly is a questionable strategy anyway. Polys aren't made to be buffed. It's worked a few times I've tried it, but the result hasn't been long lasting.

Also it's easy to buff too early. Most polys have two stage curing. The first stage is solvent evaporation and takes a few hours. At that point it's often assumed to be good to go. The second stage is (sorry, forgotten the right term) catalytic hardenening and takes 2 weeks or sometimes much more. i might try buffing it at this stage, but generally I leave buffing for lacquer and shellac finishes where I expect it to work reliably.

Using alcohol between coats sounds risky - something I'd just never do, though out of caution not real knowledge. Why clean between coats anyway - I don't think it would improve adhesion. There is nothing poly likes more then sticking to itself and the less you frig with it the happier it is.

The self levelling thing also sounds a bit odd. I thought thinning to 30% was against manufacturers instructions. I did get it to self level unthinned, but I can't remember how. I checked that it was levelled before doing a previous post on the subject, so I'm confident of it.

I'm tentatively thinking maybe it's the wrong product for your job. Unless I needed the extreme waterproofness of 7008 I'd be using precat lacquer if I wanted a fine smooth finish - it's endlessly tolerant of frigging with the surface, and I can grain-fill with the product itself as I go using a variety of methods.

Sorry I'm not much help. Try the help line again. I have been using Wattyl products for a few years and have had some excellent help from them, and some mediocre ones, it just depends who's on duty on the day.

Arron

[ian]

I'm thinking that 7008 is unsuitable as a grain filler, and that over time it will collapse into the pores.

I know hat some people use watered down Timbermate -- which might kindly be described as sloppy mud -- as a grain filler, I've only ever used the oil based stuff which used to be supplied by Wattyl, and multiple coats of a spray applied lacquer. Both work. Lacquer by flowing into the pores the Wattyl product by filling the pores

[Tegmark]

I have never experienced issues as you describe.

However, my application method is a little different. I barely, if at all, thin my first coat. Maybe not even the second. I also use nothing but rags and perhaps a little water to clean between coats. and then super thoroughly dry. Don't use any alcohol or solvents as you don't know how they react or interact with 7008 while it is in a pre-cured stage. It becomes stable after a while, but a LONG while, not between coats.


Thanks, I never thought about that but makes sense. Will have to try just water.

[Tegmark]

I haven't had the problems you mention either, though I have used the product a fair bit.

I can't help wondering if maybe the problem is that you are using a DIY level, utility product whose main virtues are hardness and waterproofness, as a fine finish.

I have had good results on floors, vanity tops and bathroom trim. They were basically a case of apply several coats, light sanding between but only if necessary, then leave alone. They were a good return for the effort involved but I never tried to buff up to a mirror finish - it seems completely contrary to how the product is marketed.

Buffing poly is a questionable strategy anyway. Polys aren't made to be buffed. It's worked a few times I've tried it, but the result hasn't been long lasting.

Also it's easy to buff too early. Most polys have two stage curing. The first stage is solvent evaporation and takes a few hours. At that point it's often assumed to be good to go. The second stage is (sorry, forgotten the right term) catalytic hardenening and takes 2 weeks or sometimes much more. i might try buffing it at this stage, but generally I leave buffing for lacquer and shellac finishes where I expect it to work reliably.

Using alcohol between coats sounds risky - something I'd just never do, though out of caution not real knowledge. Why clean between coats anyway - I don't think it would improve adhesion. There is nothing poly likes more then sticking to itself and the less you frig with it the happier it is.

The self levelling thing also sounds a bit odd. I thought thinning to 30% was against manufacturers instructions. I did get it to self level unthinned, but I can't remember how. I checked that it was levelled before doing a previous post on the subject, so I'm confident of it.

I'm tentatively thinking maybe it's the wrong product for your job. Unless I needed the extreme waterproofness of 7008 I'd be using precat lacquer if I wanted a fine smooth finish - it's endlessly tolerant of frigging with the surface, and I can grain-fill with the product itself as I go using a variety of methods.

Sorry I'm not much help. Try the help line again. I have been using Wattyl products for a few years and have had some excellent help from them, and some mediocre ones, it just depends who's on duty on the day.

Arron


Thanks for help. Just to reply to some of your points.

I was hoping this stuff would be like car two pack, just easier & cheaper in a can & applied by brush. They even use poly now for car coats.

I normally clean in between coats with a solvent as it evaporates quickly & is alot easier to wipe off than water.

At 30% it really does produce a much finer result & means less sanding, however I'm trying to achieve a fine furniture result so.

The whole point of this stuff for me is its cheap & very easy to use compared to the huge work in spraying. But that's life.

[Tegmark]

I'm thinking that 7008 is unsuitable as a grain filler, and that over time it will collapse into the pores.

I know hat some people use watered down Timbermate -- which might kindly be described as sloppy mud -- as a grain filler, I've only ever used the oil based stuff which used to be supplied by Wattyl, and multiple coats of a spray applied lacquer. Both work. Lacquer by flowing into the pores the Wattyl product by filling the pores


Thanks, I used that sloppy mud, didn't like it at all, just felt like it was delicate. However I also used thinned epoxy glue which dries very quickly. Will have to try some oil based wattyl stuff too.