Using floor polyurethane for furniture

[DaveVman]

Hi guys, please help a newbie.

As a beginner I am lazy and impatient with finishes. However I am trying to improve get a better end result with each project.

I am close to completing some stands to raise my computer monitors off the desk. Rather like simple cabinets.
They are pine with some darker brown hardwood face trim for the front.

The radiata pine is new. The hardwood trim are old ex wall panels from my house which had some nice varnish. I don't know the timber but it has a pleasant smell when worked. Pleasant to me anyway. I am sanding that varnish off back to bare wood.

I have almost 4 litres of left over floor polyurethane. I used this on another piece and I found it was very thick and doesn't give an ideal result.
So now I am thinking that I could water down the floor polyurethane with white spirits and apply more than 2 coats.

Is that a good idea?
Should I mix something else?
What proportions should I use?

Should I apply with a rag, rather than a brush?
How many coats should I aim for?

I already have this polyurethane some white spirits, plenty of terps and I think I have some meths. I would like to use what I've got if it is OK.

Thanks in advance.
Dave.

[NCArcher]

You should be able to thin the poly ok. Try the turps/white spirits, or check the can for the recommended thinner. Mix up small batches and test on scrap. Try 3:1, 2:1 or 1:1 (depends on how thick it is to start with) - poly:thinner
I would aim for 2 coats minimum and see how it looks. Again, test on scrap.

[Simplicity]

WHS


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[DaveVman]

OK So I tried this. I thought I'd give you an update on attempts. I am spraying the oil based floor polyurethane with an air compressor.
The spray gun is cheap and I don't know what I am doing. When I adjust it, it is very hard to see any difference with the almost invisible ployu spray. So that could be part of my problem but I don't think that is the main issue.

(He says without taking the time to test various settings on scrap and wait for them to dry):duh:

Of course being a beginner and lacking patience I completely ignored the sage advice to test on scrap first. That would have taken days. Pffst!! :tdown2: I did test each mixture on the underside where it is not visible so your assistance is not completely wasted on me. Well I'm calling it a test. Well I sprayed the underside. Waited a whole 20 seconds. Decided that was fine and then did the whole lot. :doh:Yeah I know, I know - still a long way to go on the patience front.

First I thinned it with terps. About 5:1 or so. I did 3 coats. This left some runs which I had to sand back by hand each time. Particularly on the hardwood drawer fronts. This was too time consuming to sand back each time.
I tried about about 10:1 (roughly). This avoided the runs. However there is very little material in the spray. Hence each coat was very fine and made the most minor difference.
It was not smooth once it dried either. However a rub down just with my bare hands made it acceptably smooth. I did about 4 coats like this before I just ran out of patience to persevere. :giveup3:
The problem is that rather than a high gloss protective finish I have a much more subtle finish.
I say 'problem' but that is the wrong word. I don't have that thick high gloss finish one gets from polyu. I have a much more natural looking finish. So perhaps I should be glad. However it is like I ended up with the opposite extreme so I'd left wondering if there is sufficient protection - AFTER 7 COATS!!! :)(
(Did I mention patience was a work in progress)?

Of course the obvious thing I should have done is try 8:1 or 7:1 and perhaps I would have found a happy balance. But bugger it. I've decided the project is finished. So it's finished.

As I said, at the start, my patience for finishing has a tremendously long way to go.

Anyway I didn't find the correct ratio but I think it is somewhere between 5:1 and 10:1.
I did get much more efficient at setting up and cleaning out the sprayer. So if I can find the right mix it will be a lot faster and better than a brush.
I still have over 3 litres of this stuff so I'm sure there will be another project to try it on.
However next project I'm going to try a Cabots combination stain and gloss with a brush or rag.

I also just bought some shellac to try in the future. I suppose I could spray that on a future project and see how that goes with a sprayer.
I know, I know, test it with some scrap. Psft!! Yeah right. That would take days! :roll:

[Lappa]

Only 7 coats? You wuss!:D I put on 20 coats of shellac by hand with cloth. Even with 20 coats it's still a very thin finish though and I still wonder whether they are enough.:?

[ian]

If your level of patience level is that low, perhaps you should accept surfaces with no finish or take up a hobby other than building stuff out of wood.

as a general rule of thumb -- achieving a good to excellent finish takes almost as long the actual build. Factoring in drying / curing time, the finishing step can be much longer

[Arron]

If your level of patience level is that low, perhaps you should accept surfaces with no finish or take up a hobby other than building stuff out of wood.

as a general rule of thumb -- achieving a good to excellent finish takes almost as long the actual build. Factoring in drying / curing time, the finishing step can be much longer

I can't agree more. I'm really irritated by the people who ask for help but frankly admit that they are 'lazy' and lack patience - like we are supposed to make up for their shortcomings. How do they think we acquired sufficient knowledge to achieve good finishing. I recall it was a long hard slog and there were no shortcuts.

[Sawdust Maker]

not sure what the problem is
water it down until it's about the consistency of water. wipe on with a rag (lint free, old sheets are good or t-shirts)
wander off and do something else. When dry - a few hours, another coat
next day light sand with 400 or 500 grip - another coat, repeat until happy with build up - no drips and super finish - wax at end if you want.

You've got to take it easy otherwise it will always look pretty sh*thouse

I'd also suggest you buy ubeauts finishing book - on his website

[DaveVman]

not sure what the problem is
water it down until it's about the consistency of water. wipe on with a rag (lint free, old sheets are good or t-shirts)
wander off and do something else. When dry - a few hours, another coat
next day light sand with 400 or 500 grip - another coat, repeat until happy with build up - no drips and super finish - wax at end if you want.

You've got to take it easy otherwise it will always look pretty sh*thouse

I'd also suggest you buy ubeauts finishing book - on his websiteIn hindsight this is what I should do. I thought the spray would give me a superior result but I'm going to try a better quality finish with a rag and perhaps it will not only be better but also a little faster in the end.

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[DaveVman]

I can't agree more. I'm really irritated by the people who ask for help but frankly admit that they are 'lazy' and lack patience - like we are supposed to make up for their shortcomings. How do they think we acquired sufficient knowledge to achieve good finishing. I recall it was a long hard slog and there were no shortcuts.Wow!
I was trying to be light humored but I guess my dry sence of humour is not for everyone.
I'm sorry you feel that I expected you to 'make up for [my] shortcomings'.
How exactly you got that expectation I don't know but it wasn't my intention.

I would like to think I have enough brain cells left to realise I need to do a few hard yards. I just deal with it with a little self depreciating humor. Obviously not everyone's cup of tea I guess.

Sorry if I hit a raw nerve for some people.

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[ian]

not so much a raw nerve but it was a little difficult to determine if you were being slap-dash or humorous.

I gleamed more more towards the slap-dash than humorous.

[richmond68]

you're using solvent borne poly on floors? I haven't used that in about twenty years. Went to water borne polyurethane and haven't looked back, much quicker dry times and easy to work with. Sprays nicely with a hvlp gun and 1mm tip.

[Lappa]

I took it as good natured humour hence my response.

[rob streeper]

I strongly recommend against the idea of putting floor finishes on anything but the floor. Doing otherwise just encourages people to put their feet on your furniture.:oo:

[ian]

only if you tell 'em



it's a bit like a reverse of the Palmolive (R) dishwashing commercial "you're soaking in it"

[DaveVman]

Well in this case, if they get their feet all the way up there then I'm guessing that they entered the house without an invitation anyway.

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[richmond68]

Standing desks are all the rage, it's only a bit further to a stand on desk :wink:

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hey V-man. No problem here with flippancy, or with trying to get a great finish for little work. I think that self-flagellation is unpleasant! But, then, I say this as someone who loves true French Polish -- shellac put on very thin with a 'rubber' so my version of 'easy' and 'lazy' may be different? I don't actually find it difficult, I find true pleasure in it.

I would never use a floor finish on a piece of furniture ... but diluted poly (of any nature) maybe fine for 'disposable/transitory items like monitor stands.

"Real" furniture, that you want to stand the test of time, needs a real finish -- one that will last with the furniture. It may take a little more effort, but it will be worth it. That 'little' can be VERY little if you develop some knowledge and a taste for the quality finish results that lift your making to the top level.

I used a floor poly on my kitchen benches about 7 years ago. it does not last as advertised and now will have to be painstakingly scraped or sanded off. How I wish I used a quality oil finish !!!! Time will tell if you cheat.

[LHThread]

I'll second the vote for an oil finish.
When completing some stereo speaker cabinets made from veneered chipboard I was advised to rub them down with 400 wet and dry soaked in Danish Teak Oil. I did this then completed the job using steel wool and the said oil, finishing off with a soft lint free cloth. It took a while. .
The result was amazing. Better than any poly stuff of today. I recently had to replace a "tweeter" speaker in one of the cabinets. They still look quite handsome ...I built them while still a student in 1971!

[DaveVman]

Standing desks are all the rage, it's only a bit further to a stand on desk :wink:The next step you might say.
Just one further step up from that would be onto my new monitor stands.
One small step for me. One giant...
OK I'll stop it.

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[DaveVman]

I thought the next step for me would be to try Danish oil. However I got talked into trying Shellac for my next project. I was told it's easier for beginners. I've mixed it up 125mg to 500ml of 100% solvent. Then I discovered it has to settle for a day.
Done that but now a new issue. Unfortunately I don't own a paint strainer and it seems I'm fresh out of stockings so I won't be doing any shellacing until I widen my undergarment collection.
Wish I'd just got the oil.

Anyway once I do my stocking shopping, I'll try shellac on a smaller project I have ready for finishing. Should I use a rag or a brush?

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[DaveVman]

OK there is hope for me after all. I actually tested the shellac on some scraps.

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[Alkahestic]

If you're using shellac flakes and dissolving them, it doesn't have to sit for a day. You can agitate the container (don't use a metal container) to encourage the flakes to dissolve. Pulverizing the flakes would also speed up the process.

For application, you can use either brush or rag, people swear by either. I find a brush easy enough. One of these is a good starter brush and isn't too expensive https://www.eckersleys.com.au/products/art-spectrum-hake-goat-hair-brush Dried shellac will dissolve when exposed to alcohol, so you don't really need to be too fastidious with cleaning up the brush either, just leave it in meths for a minute and it'll be soft again. Shellac can be sprayed as well, so you could give your compressor and gun another go. If you want a glossy finish with a brush it's about 8 coats (for me anyway).

[DaveVman]

Shellac can be sprayed as well, so you could give your compressor and gun another go. If you want a glossy finish with a brush it's about 8 coats (for me anyway).

Thank you very much for the information.
I unintentionally pulverized the flakes a little to get them through the little funnel I used.
I had thought it might be able to be sprayed so I'm happy to have that confirmed. I was thinking of spraying this stool I have made but the wife has some other idea so I'll wait and give her a chance to do the finish on that.

I'm thrilled to learn a more glossy finish comes with layers. I did one test coat with a rag on some scrap pine. It just makes it go a bit yellow. Now you have inspired me to do lots more coats with a rag and a brush on these scraps and see what happens.

How much time should I give between coats and should I give it a light sand with 600 wet n dry between coats?


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[woodPixel]

If you want REALLY lazy finish, there are two. Both will give you great results.

-- Nitrocellulose (specifically Wattyl Industrial Stylewood). Spray a tack coat, wait ~5 minutes, spray another wetter coat. Do a third if there is any left in the gun. Spray it in thin coats. Its dries like a flash even in weather. Done.

-- Kunos Livos oil. Flood it on (or use a brush), rub it all in with a mouse (a balled rag). Wipe up the excess and pop mouse into an airtight jar. Let it dry overnight, or 3 hours if really impatient. Do again in the morning but with the mouse and a little bit of oil. Second coat is just to get the thirsty bits. Silky smooth and DONE.


If you want a really schmicko result, use Poly (I use Cabots Cabothane). Spray thinned with poison of choice (I use Wattyl L780), spray down in thin slightly wet coats. Let it flash off, spray another. No more. Wait 6 hours, one more, slightly wetter. LEAVE it the F alone for a day, or two. Resist! Let it harden. Then you can colour sand it to flat gleaming perfection (youtube: colour sanding)

I do this for some of my fancy boxes where people want "shiney" (i.e. the bogans). Nitro is for classy people and Kunos is for people who are classy and have taste.

Kunos feels like warm silk, seriously. It sells itself.

Now, if your gun technique is utter (redacted word), I can help you out there. Just ask and I can give you some pro tips, but there is heaps online/vids about spraying - especially cars. Same thing. Same principles. Well, cars are harder as nothing is flat....

If you want a zero dollar learning tool, use dark food colour/dye in warm water and spray it onto cardboard from the recycling centre. If you get lines, your fan isnt right, or your technique is bad, you see this as bands and crappy overlaps and runs and visually look (redacted word)..... Dye--> Cardboard--> Outdoor fun!

Get it perfect on that and your project will look amazing.

[woodPixel]

I unintentionally pulverized the flakes a little to get them through the little funnel I used.

I had thought it might be able to be sprayed so I'm happy to have that confirmed.

-- Dissolve your shellac in a jar. Shake it often. A pickled onion jar is my preference. You could use a gherkin jar if thats whats left over. But I can't see myself eating a jar of gherkins in an afternoon... but pickles... dead easy! Mmmm. Pickles.
-- If you put anything in your gun, run it through a fine sieve first! They are $4 for 5 at supercheapauto: Velocity Paper Paint Strainers - 5 Pack - Supercheap Auto (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/Product/Velocity-Paper-Paint-Strainers-5-Pack/321469)
-- If you don't sieve your chunks out, they are going to spew all over your nice flat work in chunks. Just as pretty as the result of a heavy night out with the lads. Plus the gun will clag like a bastard if you don't

Nothing wrong with smashing up your shellac flakes to dissolve them faster.

[Alkahestic]

How much time should I give between coats and should I give it a light sand with 600 wet n dry between coats?

If your shellac is freshly made, and you're not applying too much to the surface in one go, each coat should dry off in a few minutes. The first coats will dry almost instantly. As the layers get built up it'll take a little longer. If the shellac isn't dry after an hour it probably means your batch is too old. Do a light sand after the first coat with >= 240 grit, you don't need to sand between coats. The next coat will dissolve the previous coat. Once you have the desired sheen and the shellac is dry, rub a cloth dipped in meths lightly over the surface, this is to level out the finish and get it flat. And don't be tempted to go back ever go back over a wet area, that's a recipe for sadness.

[DaveVman]

Thanks for the great suggestions. My spray technique is not to bad. I'm spraying the entire interior of the house with an airless sprayer room by room. Very gradually doing the entire house when I get nagged too much about it. Only 2 rooms left to finish.
Plus i sprayed both sides off all the kitchen cupboards and drawers with the air compressor spray gun.
So I've had enough practice with technique.
Now I just need to master clear finishes on smaller objects.

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