the price of fuel

[shep]

Gday i was listening to the radio yesterday there was a fool saying that the incresed fuel price is good becouse it will get 4wd's of the road. are people that live in citys really that stupid that they think everyone has access to public transport let alone bitchumen roads.

my wife drives 90ks to and from work and even on a techers pay, after fuel and the morgage there is bugger all left over.

filled the car yesterday 135ltr fuel = $187

bit of a rant i know it just seems harder then ever to pay the bills.

shep

[bitingmidge]

So why do you need a 4wd because there's no public transport?

And if you have a 4wd why do you need a big sucker anyway? I don't think that they are bad, just inappropriate for 80% of what they are used for.

I often drive in excess of 90 km for work, but do that in a car that travels safely at the speed limit while consuming less than 8 litres per 100km.

The Peugeot and Citroen diesels are capable of achieving round 4l/100km at 110km/h.

Perhaps it's time we all realised that fuel is a finite resource, not something we can replace. As far as I am concerned if you want to drive one of those "see-how-big-my-dick-is cars" that's your perogative, but don't whinge about paying for the unnecessary fuel it uses!

If the government was to put a further 100% conservation levy on fuel, maybe we'd all start using less and our kids/grandkids may have enough left for them as well.

Cheers,

P (who drives a 4wd on the beach, and in the mountains, but it isn't a useless big one designed for towing boats and horses)
:D :D :D

[Daddles]

In the last six months, my food bill has gone up 30% (yes, I keep records) and my petrol bill has gone up 20% - even more if you just consider the current spike. You can bet that this will not be reflected in the CPI because although these are things I can not avoid paying for and which eat up most of my income, there will other things that go down like the price of shares and Foxtel and the latest CD players and computers and other 'essentials' so the the bastards in their ivory tower in Canberra can claim to be doing a good job. It's no wonder little johnny (deliberate lower case) wants to turn us into a police state - he's not following the bush edict, he's scared we'll turn on him.

Richard

no, rant mode is not flamin' off :mad:

I heard the other day that little johnny's latest nickname is 'bonsai' - because he's a little bush

[zathras]

OK, I'll bite.

I agree it is becoming more difficult to make ends meet.

4WD's are notorious for poor fuel consumption, and the incidence of these things on the roads in the cities is reaching plague proportions. Since most of our population does live in cities there really is no need for these lumbering, intimidating machines for the daily grind through the suburbs.

There seems to be a perception amongst many owners of these behemoths that because of their elevated position, they feel safer, and I suspect feel more powerful by looking down onto others.

These things on petrol usually suck twice as much fuel as a Falcodore, and probably 3 times as much as a small car. If the fuel price does reduce the number of these things on city roads then it is not entirely a bad thing.

For people in the country that have a need, as you seem to be saying, then the price is unfortunate, but it won't go away.

I suspect we can all say goodbye to sub $1 fuel prices, and more get used to $2 prices. Last time I was in Germany it was 1.30 euro for a litre, that is over $2AUD. The fuel is not replaceable, as supply becomes more difficult, the price will rise.

I live in a regional area outside of Melbourne, and have been splitting the journey by driving half way and using, shock horror, a pushbike for the other half (40km+ each day). Never felt fitter. I also do this as my public transport choices also are few and far between, especially if you manage to miss the last train at 6:30 pm :eek:

[Dion N]

The price of fuel will have a big impact on the cost of owning a 4WD, BUT... most people who need to own one (ie farmers, tradesmen etc) can claim the fuel on tax. I suspect that the amount of people who absolutely must have a 4WD just to access their residence and cannot claim some sort of tax rebate is very small.

As for those who need one to display their wealth or who think it provides them with additional safety or who like to go offroad on the weekend or use it to tow the boat/horse float, then their 4WD is really a choice/hobby and hobbies (generally speaking) tend to be expensive, as most of us on the forum know :D

[DavidG]

I have a 4wd used almost exclusively for pulling a large trailer with a backhoe on it.
I have car for running round town.
Have just bought a motor bike (200cc) for running to and from the block and round town trips were possible.

We need multiple vehicles to manage the different jobs. How about a multi vehicle registration that recognizes I can only be driving one at a time. :rolleyes:

[Iain]

I have a Landcruiser which is used used for pulling two bloody big horses as we compete at State level in showjumping and some other events.
Hobby? yes, but really no different to any other sport and we do take it very seriously.
I hate the crap that we have horse for status, we don't, we finance the whole thing apart from a couple of sponsors but that is not that much.
My wife drives a Toyota Starlet, and car pools.
On the day she doesn't drive I take the Starlet.
Other days I have nop choice or do I buy another car, more rego, insurance maintainance etc.
I get really ****** off when people point the finger at my 'Big" car and assume that I don't really need it.
We are after all putting the State on the map and receive no thanks from the State and when we do have a win, it's a damned expensive trophy.

[DanP]

Quite simply, petrol costs about 70c in each dollar more than it should. Both state and fed govt's make a lot more than the oil co's.

I also own a 4X4 to cart around a couple of kids and all the associated crud that goes with them (bit overkill for two kids I know but we plan on more).

A couple of things stated in previous threads that I disagree with.

1. It is a fact that 4x4's are safer than sedans. Even if you only take into consideration the improved vision from the higher seating position.

2. If you really wanted to display your wealth, surely you would purchase a prestige vehicle, not a four wheel drive?

3. If government's really wanted to get 4X4's off the road then why is my 4by rego cheaper than my Station Wagon.

At the end of the day 4X4's are a commercially available vehicle. If I choose to own one then I bluddy well will.

Dan

[Iain]

3. If government's really wanted to get 4X4's off the road then why is my 4by rego cheaper than my Station Wagon.

Dan
I thought they were the same!!!!

[DanP]

Nope, The 4by is $17.60 cheaper.

Dan

[Grunt]

1. It is a fact that 4x4's are safer than sedans. Even if you only take into consideration the improved vision from the higher seating position.


Yes. 4WDs don't have crumple zones. They use the crumple zone of the car they smack into and run over the top of. In a two car crash the bigger one wins.

[PuppyPaw]

if you plan on having kids and lots of the little buggers then a van would be a better option.

I had a friend that was in an accident with a 4x4 (land cruiser to be exact) it was head on doing 60k 4x4 moved from there lane into oncoming traffic. My mate was in a honda accord 94 model.
The 4x4 ran into the front of the car, right through the crumple zone bumper when through the windscreen.
Friend was in a coma for 3 weeks before he passed on, driver of the 4x4 barely got scrathed.

Had the 4x4 been in a car and not a 4x4 my friend what has survived with minimum damage to him.

So it may be safer for those in the driver in the 4x4 but there is more people in this world then 4x4 drivers and they need to be thought about also!

[Dion N]

A couple of things stated in previous threads that I disagree with.

2. If you really wanted to display your wealth, surely you would purchase a prestige vehicle, not a four wheel drive?

3. If government's really wanted to get 4X4's off the road then why is my 4by rego cheaper than my Station Wagon.


Dan

2. A Hilux is not a prestige vehicle. I think a $50000+ 4WD is (eg Range Rover Prado etc)

3. They don't want 4WD off the roads.. more 4WD = more fuel = more tax dollars :D

[Groggy]

1. It is a fact that 4x4's are safer than sedans. Even if you only take into consideration the improved vision from the higher seating position.

Dan, first let me state that I do not like 4wds that are not necessary (Toorak tractors). Having stated that up front, let me now say that 4x4s are safer than sedans - yes, they are, no argument.

But the argument is fallacious, in the same way a M-60 Main Battle Tank or a truck is safer than a 4x4. If you hit one, you lose the argument.

I did write a bunch of other stuff but snipped it as it would probably cause a protracted argument. Suffice to say the 4x4s are safer for the occupants only, anyone else around is going to get hurt, and pedestrians haven't got much chance either.

[kiwigeo]

My $1.50's worth..

If you think petrol is expensive now wait until the oil starts running out.

[Gingermick]

I bought a 110cc postie bike to get to and from work on. $4.50 a week in fuel. :p . Bloody thing used to be 3.50 though

Gingerchick drives a camry wagon to carry the three tikes around in. Even it is a bit small sometimes. Might have to put one of the kids on a bus for the next trip away.


even on a techers pay,

I would have thought, especially on a teachers pay.

Or a drafties.

[Rowan]

everyone seems to have lost the main point in that motorised vehicles are a luxury item anyway (be they 4x4 or otherwise) so stop complaining about the price of fuel!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[Jack E]

I have a Land Rover Discovery.
I don't tow anything or have a tribe of kids.
I didn't buy it to show off (I find it hard to believe anything but a very small percentage of 4WD owners buy them for a sense of power or show :confused: )

I bought it because I wanted it, what I do with it is up to me.

My other car is a ute which uses a whole lot more than the 95L per 1000kM I get from the Landy.

Perhaps all the whingers should chip in and buy a big 4WD to tow around the band wagon :) :)

Cheers, Jack

[Jack E]

2. A Hilux is not a prestige vehicle. I think a $50000+ 4WD is (eg Range Rover Prado etc)

Have you seen the price of a Hilux lately?

[Clinton1]

I do 60 km's per day, 5 days a week to get to work and back. I'm in Melbourne and the alternative is $10/day and 2.5 hours on public transport/day.
So far the car is cheaper (Holden stationwagon) only because of the time factor.

So I'm now in the market for a Dedicated LPG Falcon.

How much more am I going to pay for the cost of fuel in my grocery bill??
So I'm putting in a garden.

Fuel costs suck. Public Transport, when you don't want to go in to the city, sucks. However the simple fact is that the oil is almost used up, and in energy terms we are living beyond our means. I can only see worse to come.

And I'm sitting around at home today 'cause I can't afford to go out due to fuel costs.

[kiwigeo]

And I'm sitting around at home today 'cause I can't afford to go out due to fuel costs.

Get out to the shed man.....youve got a perfect excuse to lay on SWMBO so get out there and make some sawdust!!

[Iain]

These may be appropriate

[shep]

gday all a lot of interisting replys as i suspected mostly agenst 4wds how ever we must use 4wd to get to town and often need low range on a 20k streach of road after rain a 4wd is not a toy to us but a nessesty as to fuel econemy my td5 landie on the hwy towing a large boat (1600kg) gets 8.5 ks to 100ltr so stick that in your falcodore and try and better it.

shep

[Sturdee]

as to fuel econemy my td5 landie on the hwy towing a large boat (1600kg) gets 8.5 ks to 100ltr so stick that in your falcodore and try and better it.

shep


At current fuel prices that would be $ 139.50 for a mere 8.5 ks. My Ford fairmont does 300 ks for $ 30.00 which I think is a tad better. :D

Of course I only run on gas. :D :D :D


Peter.

[sbranden]

4x4's are only safer if you are the occupant and you hit another car or something softer such as a bike, etc. I would much rather be in well designed car in an accident with a sationary object like a tree or power pole.

I drive a land cruiser everyday at work, and sometimes my job would be impossible without low range, but I get to work on a bicycle or if I am in a very slack mood drive a car.

There are definately situations where 4x4's are required and the original post is one of them. The dozens that drive past here on the way to our local private school every morning are just rediculous though. Mind you it is fun watching incompetant drivers trying to park them.

[Daddles]

The current fuel prices have caused quite a problem here. The local mafia are so embarrassed by the high prices, that they are contemplating selling all their petrol stations. Trouble is, the government is the only mob with the hide to buy them :eek:

RIchard

[journeyman Mick]

everyone seems to have lost the main point in that motorised vehicles are a luxury item anyway (be they 4x4 or otherwise) so stop complaining about the price of fuel!!!!!!!!!!! :D

They may be a luxury item if you live in an area that has public transport or you're not a tradesman that needs to cart around a lot of tools and materials. I don't compalin about the price of fuel, waste of breath, not like I can do anything about it anyway.

For the record - public transport around here consists of a hiace van (11 seats?) which goes up and down the hill to Cairns a few times a day.
As a self employed tradesman, public transport is simply not an option.

I own a 4wd, have done for about 15 years now. 4wd gets engaged infrequently, sometimes every day for weeks on end, somethimes not for a few months. When it gets engaged it's not for fun, it's so I can get to where I'm going without having to spend half a day digging and winching. I could of course just hire a 4wd when required, however often you don't know it's required until you find yoursef skewing backwards down a track.

No one has raised it yet, but no doubt some 4wd basher will ;) - bullbars. Yes they are innapropriate on a lot of vehicles, however I will fight tooth and nail to be able to keep mine. What they get used for:
Attachment of carry racks for long lenghts of timber, pipes etc.
Attachment point for recovery gear
Jacking point for hi-lift jack
Pushing over saplings etc when required
Minimise damage when a roo or calf runs out in front of you
Somewhere to mount lights (there's no lighting of any sort in a lot of areas)
Somewhere to hang a winch from.
Somewhere to mount a vice to
Handy for knocking shopping trolleys out of the way :D

Mick - the evil, forest raping, oil burning, status symbol driving redneck

[DavidG]

HeHeHe Still running the bike in and re learning how to ride.
4.11Litres for 96km

4.28 L per 100k.

Stick that up yours you fuel companies. :D :D :D :D :D

[kiwigeo]

gday all a lot of interisting replys as i suspected mostly agenst 4wds how ever we must use 4wd to get to town and often need low range on a 20k streach of road after rain a 4wd is not a toy to us but a nessesty as to fuel econemy my td5 landie on the hwy towing a large boat (1600kg) gets 8.5 ks to 100ltr so stick that in your falcodore and try and better it.

shep

I can better that Shep.....I use a couple of donkies to pull my boat......costs me about $10 a week in hay and the donkey sh*t saves me buying fertilizer for the garden
:D

[echnidna]

So how do we convert sawdust to gas??

[Jack E]

my td5 landie on the hwy towing a large boat (1600kg) gets 8.5 ks to 100ltr
I am presuming you meant 8.5 litres to 100 k's.

How the hell do you get that towing a boat?

My TD5 uses 9 - 10 litres per 100k's on the highway. (95 litre tank = 1000k's)

Cheers, Jack

[adrian]

Why don't we all just drive goggomobiles? :rolleyes:
I'm getting tired of people whining about 4x4s. If you are nervous about sharing the roads with large vehicles then get a bus because I don't want to have to share the roads with a bunch of nervous people.
I do a lot of country driving and I don't know whether it's just my own experience or whether other people have made the same observation but I think the quality of driving diminishes as the size of the car gets smaller.
As for the chance of injury when being t-boned by a four wheel drive, what happens when a commodore hits a mini or when a corolla hits a Messerschmitt three wheeler. It's all getting a bit ridiculous and is looking more and more like mass hysteria. If you want to quote the figures of deaths of people when being hit by 4x4s you are going to have to also quote the percentage of the accidents that were caused by the driver of the smaller vehicle. Statistics are useless unless all information is provided.

[Daddles]

So how do we convert sawdust to gas??

Mix it with baked beans and eat it :D

Richard

[outback]

......................I do a lot of country driving and I don't know whether it's just my own experience or whether other people have made the same observation but I think the quality of driving diminishes as the size of the car gets smaller..

I do a tad of country driving myself. I don't think you have a clue what your'e on about.

[Groggy]

I'm getting tired of people whining about 4x4s.The discussion is more about "unnecessary and large" 4x4s.


I do a lot of country driving and I don't know whether it's just my own experience or whether other people have made the same observation but I think the quality of driving diminishes as the size of the car gets smaller.Must be just you. I find the larger the vehicle the greater the concentration required. Unless, of course, you just let the thing wander.


As for the chance of injury when being t-boned by a four wheel drive, what happens when a commodore hits a mini or when a corolla hits a Messerschmitt three wheeler. At a guess, I'd say a lot less than when a 3 tonne 4x4 hits them.


It's all getting a bit ridiculous and is looking more and more like mass hysteria. Funny you should say that, recent studies have shown crowd analysis to be remarkably accurate. "The Wisdom of Crowds" is recommended reading. Note that the "crowd" had pinpointed Morton Thiokol as the culprit in the Challenger disaster minutes after the event. (One example: http://slate.msn.com/id/2086811/)


If you want to quote the figures of deaths of people when being hit by 4x4s you are going to have to also quote the percentage of the accidents that were caused by the driver of the smaller vehicle. Statistics are useless unless all information is provided. Who quoted statistics? Nobody in this thread, so far anyway.

[Jack E]

As for the chance of injury when being t-boned by a four wheel drive, what happens when a commodore hits a mini or when a corolla hits a Messerschmitt three wheeler.

At a guess, I'd say a lot less than when a 3 tonne 4x4 hits them.

OK, the 4WD is heavier, but the commodore can (and generally does) go faster, remember high school physics, Force = Mass X Acceleration.

I am sure somebody will say that by law both vehicles should only be travelling at a maximum of 100k's anyway.
Yes that is true but if every vehicle on the road was driven abiding by every law governing them, how many accidents would there be?

Cheer, Jack.

[shep]

gday i found the best econ towing is in 4th gear (manual) and 80kph.
the other thing abought 4wds is that they last a lot longer then passenger cars my farm ute just failed to pass for rego 2 years ago so now stays on the farm i bought it new in 1989 and did 1.3 millon ks with the only major repairs being 2 gear box rebuilds and one transfer rebuild and that was only bearings and seals.
where most passenger cars are landfill after 10 years or 200,000 ks.

shep

oh and my bullbar is fully adr approved and air bag compatible

[ian]

OK, the 4WD is heavier, but the commodore can (and generally does) go faster, remember high school physics, Force = Mass X Acceleration.If we're going to talk generalities, the comodore is required to statisfy higher standards in terms of stability and braking than a 4x4.

I am sure somebody will say that by law both vehicles should only be travelling at a maximum of 100k's anyway.the speed of the commodore or 4x4 is not really relevant. The sides and doors of cars are reinforced. When one car is T-boned by another the impact is partially absorbed by the reinforcing. In a 4x4 T-bone impact the 4x4 hits well above the reinforced zone, often at head height.

ian

[boban]

Get out to the shed man.....youve got a perfect excuse to lay on SWMBO !!

I dont think the price of fuel will result in you getting lucky, but I'll try it and see how I go :D

[Jack E]

If we're going to talk generalities, the comodore is required to statisfy higher standards in terms of stability and braking than a 4x4
Is this true? Don't all cars imported or manufactured in Australia have to pass ADR? (honest question, not fishing :) )

the speed of the commodore or 4x4 is not really relevant. The sides and doors of cars are reinforced. When one car is T-boned by another the impact is partially absorbed by the reinforcing. In a 4x4 T-bone impact the 4x4 hits well above the reinforced zone, often at head height
Is this the fault of a 4WD owner who has not broken any laws?
Or the fault of the car designer for not anticipating and designing for a possible scenario on the road?
Or the fault of the government for allowing these unsafe passenger cars to be driven at all?

BTW, my bullbar is factory fitted. The nudge bar on my ute is ADR approved and airbag compatible.
You may ask why a nudge bar on my ute?
It's not there for my safety or to injure others.
The front of an XR6 ute would be quite costly to replace or even repair, and SWMBO drives the ute sometimes :D :D

Cheers, Jack

[DavidG]

What I love about people is their :-
"I don't believe in..... so you should not...."

It has stuff all to do with anyone else what some one chooses to drive providing it is legal. It is their decision and their cost.

The most dangerous thing on the road is not the vehicle type but the loose nut behind the wheel.

Let's get back to the subject which was the price of fuel.

It is getting crook when I could fill my tractor up cheaper inside Woollies at the vegi oil section than what I can at the Woollies garage. :eek:

[ian]

Is this true? Don't all cars imported or manufactured in Australia have to pass ADR? (honest question, not fishing :) )for cars you're mostly right (small volume importers — I think small volume equates to less than 50 vehicles per year — don't need to satisfy all the ADRs), but most 4WDs are classified as trucks, so they don't have to (and in practice don't) meet any of the car ADRs.
Is this the fault of a 4WD owner who has not broken any laws?
Or the fault of the car designer for not anticipating and designing for a possible scenario on the road?
Or the fault of the government for allowing these unsafe passenger cars to be driven at all?you can blame all three!
as a consumer I can buy any vehicle I want. If I buy a 4WD as a road vehicle 'cause I want to (as opposed to I need a 4WD to tow a boat, horse, etc) then I should acknowledge that my truck isn't a car and I should go and learn how to drive it properly. My personal rant is against people who justify the 4WD on the basis that they drive a couple of kms on gravel which gets a little slippery when it rains — to them I say go and learn how to drive. Drivers in Europe manage to drive 2WD cars on snow and soft ice so what's the big deal with an unsealed road?

You could blame the car designers for not being able to see into the future. The ADRs that most of today's cars conform to were developed and implemented at a time when there were very few 4WDs on the roads. It takes 15 to 20 years before an ADR applies across most cars on Australian roads.

we could also blame the Government for allowing people with a Class 1 licience to drive 4WDs — up until 10 years ago the mass of most 4WDs meant that a Class 3 licience was required — let's also blame the Government for applying a concessional tarrif to 4WDs and while we're at let's all take collective blame for not electing a Government that will ban 4WDs.
But hang on, I vote, and there's noway I'll vote for a party that thinks it can tell me what type of vehicle I should drive.

[bitingmidge]

Why don't we all just drive goggomobiles?

Because for the size of their engine they were relatively inefficient, but it's a great suggestion.

I'm not interested in how many driving wheels there are, or who can afford to pay for fuel and who can't, but I am interested in why we are allowed to waste so much of what is a non-renewable resource.

Oh yes, I know about oil company conspiracy theories, but why aren't the fuel efficient technologies that are here now not forced apon us, and why in this day and age to we have such a fixation on number of cylinders rather than efficiency???

It's not hard to find four cylinder cars which are a lot less efficient than eight, and so on... the simplest solution is to make the user pay. INCREASE the tax component on fuel I say, if you can't afford it, drive less or more efficiently!

Cheers,

P

:D :D :D

[spbookie]

There was a post earlier saying that 4-wheel drives are safer than standard cars. I had heard the opposite but didn't want to say anything till I could back it up.

The stats show that 4-wheel drives are 20% more likely to be involved in a fatal accident. See the picture below for details, the last column has the accident ratios between vehicle types.

For the life of me I can't understand why a city driver wants a car that is 20% more likely to be involved in a fatal accident, costs heaps more to run and heaps more to maintain.

One quote:
"A more insidious problem is the lack of vision behind 4WDs. Almost ninety per cent of children killed in NSW driveways in 1998 were run over by 4WDs or large commercial vehicles.(2) Also, 4WD vehicles can be more difficult for other drivers to see past."

I got the info from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau - monograph 11, "Fatal Four Wheel Drive Crashes"

See: http://www.atsb.gov.au/road/mgraph/mgraph11/index.cfm for all the gory details.

[savage]

G'Day all,
I have been reading a lot of the posts here and I have just got to put in my say!.. (1) industry needs 4x4's be it farmers, maintenance workers, etc...(2) it's not the vehicle that is unsafe, it's the people that drive them, the average ford/holden weighs in around 1200/1400kgs, the average 4x4 starts at around 1500kgs up, people drive them like sedans, and a lot of the time that's fine till they get in a situation and momentum and inertia step into the picture and they are really in trouble, hence my next point...(3) 4x4 drivers should be a class of licence in it's self or be under the "M" or "H" class, as they are a heavy vehicle capable of speeds equal to or better than some sedans but the engines are designed to rev harder and longer than most sedans, not for top speed but for the ability to negotiate difficult terrain. I have had 3 4x4's all for different reasons, the last 2 mainly for towing my boat. Selfish, no, safely yes, the old VP commodor was legal to tow the boat but it was right on it's max tow limit, not a good idea, it had a tendancy to push and was always in the back of my mind that if I ever had to "stand" on the brakes I would be in trouble. I traded up to a Jackeroo man 5spd did the job fine and had plenty of pull, but due to a lot of luck and medical prob's I have just bought a new Musso 5cyl turbo diesel auto and will keep it for a long time to come, (I hope). So my point is it's not the 4x4 it's the manner in which the person drives and his/her experience and ability to handle a very comfortably deceptive vehicle. I was trained driving fire trucks at high speeds very safely and defensively and have seen all types of ignorance and stupidity on the roads.
savage.

[DanP]

I got the info from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau - monograph 11, "Fatal Four Wheel Drive Crashes"


It's funny that I've never been to a fatal accident involving a four wheel drive. I've been to about ten fatals just in the last two years alone in an area where there is almost as many 4by's as passenger cars. NEVER believe statistics. How the hell would they know the kilometres travelled???

Dan

[Jack E]

I agree with Dan on discounting statistics.
Anybody who has studied even a little statistics knows that any result can be achieved, usually the required outcome determines the sampling!

I have a Heavy Rigid licence and have driven many different types of trucks.
I have also driven many different types of 4WD.
The two are very dissimilar as far as the actual driving is concerned and a 4WD is definately alot closer to a car than a truck.
There is no point having to get a MR or HR licence to drive a 4WD.
What we need is a better standard of licensing at all levels which actually requires some practical ability and defensive skills.

As far as fuel goes, we have one machine at work which uses 3000litres of diesel a day, we have three more of these ordered (these are to replace two electric machines we have inoperation at the moment!). Apparently when these four are operational we will need a road train of diesel a day to run all our engine driven equipment.

Cheers, Jack

[shep]

bladdy nora 3000ltr a day what are they?

i worked for shell in the N.T a few years ago and the fuel trucks were 3 b doubles joined toghether they used 1ltr of fuel to go 1km.we worked on a markup of 17cents and the fuel is still the same price as nsw.

shep

[Jack E]

bladdy nora 3000ltr a day what are they?

Liebherr 996 Shovels.
http://www.hansebube.de/baumasch/r996thies/05khg78.jpg
This is not actually one of ours.
About 650 tonne, and it works 24/7 except for maintenance.

[shep]

mate hope you dont do the servicing and if you do the opperaters are easer on the machines then some of the sites ive worked on.

shep

[savage]

I hope that's an icecream scoop!......
savage.

[savage]

I think everyone has a very valid point, the system as a whole needs attention, just like public transport and the hospitals etc....etc....
savage.

[Iain]

One quote:
"A more insidious problem is the lack of vision behind 4WDs. Almost ninety per cent of children killed in NSW driveways in 1998 were run over by 4WDs or large commercial vehicles.
Equally applicable to a lot of sedans where you simply cannot see what is directly behind and below you, don't apply that to just 4WD's.
You have mirrors, use them, if it is really a concern get a rear electronic sensing unit, a lot of Eoro cars have them as standard.
The worst I ever did was run over my kids bikes, but they should not have laid them on the ground behind my 4WD, it would not have been any different if I was driving any other car as I approached my car from the front and got in.

[BJP]

That`s where I work, where did u get that pic from Jack?, I think that they use about 3000lts in 12hrs :)

[Jack E]

Google images.
Where is it?
I am not 100% but 3000litres for a 12 hour day might be right, ours work 24 hours.

Cheers, Jack

[BJP]

Burton Coal, near Mackay, I was just talking to a co-ord and he said it was about 3000lts.

[adrian]

I do a tad of country driving myself. I don't think you have a clue what your'e on about.
I don't think it's necessary to get personal.
I did qualify my remark by saying that maybe it was just in my own experience.
If you want to say that people driving small cars are more careful than those driving four wheel drives then do so and I'll accept your opinion and move on.
That's the sort of remark that makes a lot of these threads go downhill very quickly.
We have a lot of fatal accidents between Taree and Kempsey and most of them involve small cars. Admittedly, many have P plates attached but most don't.
As I said, the public debate is getting a bit hysterical. We even had the case of a Sydney council talking about placing a parking levy on 4x4s because they take up more space. My landcruiser prado (most common 4x4) is shorter than a commodore and a falcon. The 100 series landcruiser is shorter than a falcon and only 14mm longer than the commodore.
The public debate seems to lean toward emotional rather than factual argument.

[HavinaGo]

I wonder if the whole "4x4 being bad" mentality is a furphy. Look at that table of numbers back a few posts ... apart from motor bikes, what vehicle is involved in the most fatal accidents per 100,000,000 vehicle-kms? Heavy trucks!

Why do we allow semi-trailers, B doubles, B tripples et-al on the road at all? If a car has a conversation with the bumper of one of them the result is pretty predictable. Trucks thunder back and forth between our capital cities burning fuel, destroying roads, keeping me awake at night and flattening people all because ??? I'm not sure!

How can we get these monsters off the road? How can we get rail, or other more fuel efficient transport systems to work? Maybe we need to consider going back to a user pays system ... ie get the trucking companies to pay for the roads .. or could we allow the rail companies free access to railways lines? :rolleyes: Maybe I could be a benevolent dictator and just ban anything over 5 tons from residential areas or access roads to residential areas and ban anything over 5 ton capacity from intercapital routes where railways lines exist. :D sinister smile as I make a change for the greater good :rolleyes:

:(

Oh I don't know. It just seems rediculous that we accept 60 ton trucks along side 1 ton cars while grumbling about 4x4's.

[Jack E]

we accept trucks on the road because Carbatec and Timbecon are so far away from many of us. :)

[doublejay]

This vehicle could probably come out on top in any collision.

~ The mover stands 311 feet tall and 705 feet long.
~ It weighs over 45,500 tons
~ Cost $100 million to build
~ Took 5 years to design and manufacture
~ 5 years to assemble.
~ Requires 5 people to operate it.
~ The Bucket Wheel is over 70 feet in diameter with 20 buckets, each of which can hold over 530 cubic feet of material.
~ A 6-foot man can stand up inside one of the buckets.
~ It moves on 12 crawlers (each is 12 feet wide, 8' high and 46 feet long).
~There are 8 crawlers in front and 4 in back.
~ It has a maximum speed of 1 mile in 3 hours (1/3 mile/hour).
~ It can remove over 76,455 cubic meters each day. (100,000 large dump trucks at 40yds. each)

[journeyman Mick]

This vehicle could probably come out on top in any collision.

~ The mover stands 311 feet tall and 705 feet long.
~ It weighs over 45,500 tons
~ Cost $100 million to build
~ Took 5 years to design and manufacture
~ 5 years to assemble.
~ Requires 5 people to operate it.
~ The Bucket Wheel is over 70 feet in diameter with 20 buckets, each of which can hold over 530 cubic feet of material.
~ A 6-foot man can stand up inside one of the buckets.
~ It moves on 12 crawlers (each is 12 feet wide, 8' high and 46 feet long).
~There are 8 crawlers in front and 4 in back.
~ It has a maximum speed of 1 mile in 3 hours (1/3 mile/hour).
~ It can remove over 76,455 cubic meters each day. (100,000 large dump trucks at 40yds. each)

Yeah, but how many miles to the gallon/kms per litre or whatever does it get?

Mick

[Clinton1]

Heavy Truck comment - You just pressed my button - "soapbox time" :)
Trucking companies don't pay for the road damage they create. They pay for it in their rego cost, and that is passed on to you cause you buy stuff truckies deliver to the shops you frequent, and the rego costs are built into the transport costs of the consumer item. User pays principle. You don't want trucks on the highways - don't buy non-local made items, otherwise ya got no right to whinge. :D
If you are concerned about trucks being dangerous - agitate for trucking companies to pay a decent wage to the drivers. The poor old drivers are getting paid so little that they have to make the choice between paying their families bills or taking dangerous risks in regards to hours behind the wheel. Their family's welfare will win out every time. Its the fat suited bugger that does the scheduling and wages that is putting other road users at risk. This problem has been around for decades - all that needs to happen is for there to be a whistle blower scheme for truckies, and a legal structure that closes down the company involved and sends the directors to jail for not overseeing the company in a manner that stamps out this illegal activity. Its easier to just blame the truckie and to bi%ch and whinge in a psudo-current affair program like "Today Tonight". Anyone see the 60 minutes program where truckies were actually breaking down over how they are getting treated, and the damage they are doing to themselves and their families to just make a wage? Remember seeing that girl crying cause she sees her dad 1 day a week and then he is coming off an amphetimine trip and sleeping for 20 hours. Or the small trucking company owner saying that he can't pay a living wage to his drivers and have them work legally 'cause the larger companies are having their drivers break the law just to keep their jobs?
Sure the truckies are breaking the law - but strange choices are made when you need to keep a roof over your families heads and food in their bellies.

4WD hysteria - if its legal and someone chooses to use one, then I think they should be left alone. I don't own a 4WD, but if someone chooses to own one, its their business. If you are scared of being hit by one, do a defensive driving course. Otherwise agitate to make them illegal for metro use unless needed for business purposes. Otherwise its all a bit too precious.
OIL costs - cost are high as demand is at an all time high and refining capacity is being exceeded by demand. Therefore it is sold at auction to the highest bidder. Don't blame OPEC, they are just managing an exhaustable resource for their long term benefit, which is smart.
Pant, Pant, Pant calming, calming, OK - off the soapbox.
Have a good one, and buy a falcon dedicated LPG.
Clinton

[adrian]

Heavy Truck comment - You just pressed my button - "soapbox time" :)

Clinton
I didn't include the entire quote but it was all well put. ;)

[outback]

I do a tad of country driving myself. I don't think you have a clue what your'e on about.


I don't think it's necessary to get personal.

If you think that's getting personal then you have confirmed my original post.

[Sir Stinkalot]

My grandpappa tells of a time when commoners were not allowed on the roads. I feel that increasing the fuel prices is the easiest way to clear the riff raff off my freeways. When I am driving to the snow in my 4wd or taking the kids to school I don’t want to be delayed by the common people ….. after all they have that public transport thingie.

[Daddles]

As I said, the public debate is getting a bit hysterical. We even had the case of a Sydney council talking about placing a parking levy on 4x4s because they take up more space. My landcruiser prado (most common 4x4) is shorter than a commodore and a falcon. The 100 series landcruiser is shorter than a falcon and only 14mm longer than the commodore.


This is hysterical - wanting to fine 4x4's for taking up room. I drive a Falchoon S/wagon and it doesn't fit in most car parking spots - too long.

Richard

[Andy Mac]

These latest hikes in fuel pricing have me thinking I need a new job! I drive about 55kms return trip, half of it through city traffic (if Toowoomba can be called "city":o ). I have a 2.6l EFI ute...2wheel drive folks!!...and I'm battling to pay the fuel bill now. I moved out of town about three years ago and really don't want to return. And all this woodie stuff on the Forum is inspiring me to pull the pin and make stuff for a living. But then I wonder if there'll be anyone left with spare cash to buy it!!

I seriously doubt whether our leaders in Canberra have any idea of what its like for most of us to live. When do you reckon was the last time little johnny had to actually pay for a tank of fuel? 20yrs ago is my bet.

Cheers,

[journeyman Mick]

My grandpappa tells of a time when commoners were not allowed on the roads. I feel that increasing the fuel prices is the easiest way to clear the riff raff off my freeways. When I am driving to the snow in my 4wd or taking the kids to school I don’t want to be delayed by the common people ….. after all they have that public transport thingie.

Umm, shouldn't this be Prince Charles (AKA Al) saying this? Or has all the trolling or whatever it's called been stopped now :confused:

Mick

[adrian]

If you think that's getting personal then you have confirmed my original post.

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your remark. I didn't know that the "you" in "I don't think you have a clue what your'e on about" was actually refering to someone else. :rolleyes:
My remarks about other drivers were of an empirical nature and although your first post in the thread was an extremely valuable contribution, I think it should have contained something a little more substantial than questioning my ability to have an opinion. ;)

[silentC]

If you are concerned about trucks being dangerous - agitate for trucking companies to pay a decent wage to the drivers. The poor old drivers are getting paid so little that they have to make the choice between paying their families bills or taking dangerous risks in regards to hours behind the wheel.
Maybe if the drivers started saying "no", the trucking companies would have to do something about it. As it is, they have no problem getting drivers to do it. From their point of view, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Meanwhile there are loonies hurtling down the Hume in B doubles driving them as if they are station wagons. If it was me, I'd tell them to stick it because I don't care how hard it is to pay the bills, I couldn't live with knowing that I'd written off a family on their way home from their holidays.

This is not to say we should blame the drivers but they have as much power to do something about it as anybody. Saying that you do something dangerous because it's a choice between that and starving is a very poor argument for doing it.

[Clinton1]

This is not to say we should blame the drivers but they have as much power to do something about it as anybody. Saying that you do something dangerous because it's a choice between that and starving is a very poor argument for doing it.


:mad: :eek:
Yes, a poor argument from the outside looking in. Thats not how it works when you are in the situation. Sorry, SilentC - but REALLY? Come on, you can't really think like that can you?? Seriously??

[silentC]

So you are saying that a truckie has no choice but to put his life and others in danger by popping pills and driving like an idiot? Come on, you can't really think like that can you?? Seriously?? double :mad: :mad:

[Clinton1]

Again -

Saying that you do something dangerous because it's a choice between that and starving is a very poor argument for doing it. Thats what the :mad: was for.
I have had the misfortune to have first hand experience with starving people, and people in other "just as bad" situations, so your use of the word starving really pushed my button. APOLOGIES.

If you meant that poor people get into stressful situations whereby they make poor decisions, which are largely affected by the stress in their life: and that they should just say "stuff it, I won't take that 1 in 1000 chance, I'll go bankrupt and my kids can get stuffed" - is that what you would do? I think that the tendency is to rationalise away the risks and to make lots of small decisions that add up to one big bad decision.

I find that poor people in stressful situations fight tooth and nail for their families. Thats why the double shift worker pulls a split shift of 7 hours + 7 hours (meaning an effective 16 hour day, 14 on minimum wage) and does it thinking "this will get the kid a new pair of footy boots", falls asleep at the wheel and gets wiped out on the road on the way home. Meanwhile old mate work supervisor is congratulated for his innovative personnel solutions and gets a rise.

If I have still offended you - I'll agree to disagree.
Again - I think the trucking company bosses should be held accountable, and jailed if they put peoples lives at risk by demanding that the drivers work 16 hours a day for days on end.

[Prince Charles]

Umm, shouldn't this be Prince Charles (AKA Al) saying this? Or has all the trolling or whatever it's called been stopped now :confused:

Mick

Sorry old chap one must have been taking a nap.
Whats a troll by the way?
God bless Mummy

Charles. :confused:

[MathewA]

1. It is a fact that 4x4's are safer than sedans. Even if you only take into consideration the improved vision from the higher seating position.
Dan

As far as I'm concerned... Now that I've truely experienced Aussie driving, you need all the protection you can get to survive the idiots that are on the roads here. I have never seen so many deliberately stupid drivers as I have here. Nothing personal but aussies are about the worst drivers I've ever seen.

[Iain]

Queensland or Oz????

[Clinton1]

Were we driving on the wrong side of the road?

[DavidG]

- Its time.

[DanP]

If you don't like it David, don't read it.

[DavidG]

DanP
Think its funny but we seem to be going nowhere now.
All sides have had a say and it is starting to degenerate a bit. :rolleyes:
Besides it is a hyjack any way. :D :p

[kiwigeo]

As far as I'm concerned... Now that I've truely experienced Aussie driving, you need all the protection you can get to survive the idiots that are on the roads here. I have never seen so many deliberately stupid drivers as I have here. Nothing personal but aussies are about the worst drivers I've ever seen.


Its worse in New Zealand.......and no Im not just Kiwi bashing..I was born there.

[kiwigeo]

Again - I think the trucking company bosses should be held accountable, and jailed if they put peoples lives at risk by demanding that the drivers work 16 hours a day for days on end.


I'm not sure what the work hour regulations are for truckies but in my line of work on the oil rigs the work hour regulations in many parts of Australia now state that you are allowed to work continuously for 16 hours as long as you have approval from your supervisor and as long as you then have at least an 8 hour break before resuming work.

[savage]

This vehicle could probably come out on top in any collision.

~ The mover stands 311 feet tall and 705 feet long.
~ It weighs over 45,500 tons
~ Cost $100 million to build
~ Took 5 years to design and manufacture
~ 5 years to assemble.
~ Requires 5 people to operate it.
~ The Bucket Wheel is over 70 feet in diameter with 20 buckets, each of which can hold over 530 cubic feet of material.
~ A 6-foot man can stand up inside one of the buckets.
~ It moves on 12 crawlers (each is 12 feet wide, 8' high and 46 feet long).
~There are 8 crawlers in front and 4 in back.
~ It has a maximum speed of 1 mile in 3 hours (1/3 mile/hour).
~ It can remove over 76,455 cubic meters each day. (100,000 large dump trucks at 40yds. each)
WOW!!!....:eek: Now that's an icecream scoop!!!.....
savage.

[Daddles]

WOW!!!....:eek: Now that's an icecream scoop!!!.....
savage.

I'll have double choc with mint chips thanks :D

My favourite construction site memory is of a rather rotund driver of a truck who's wheels were taller than me. His gut used to extend from his chest, then indent around the steering wheel and flow out underneath. Dead set, he used to drive that thing just by gut pressure - very handy when rolling a fag or pouring a coffee from the thermos.


Richard

[rick_rine]

Living in the country , with all this talk of a Telstra selloff I thought I'd sell my shares in Telstra . Couldn't get through to my stockbrocker though as the telephone line was down .


, there will other things that go down like the price of shares and Foxtel so the the bastards in their ivory tower in Canberra can claim to be doing a good job. It's no wonder little johnny (deliberate lower case) wants to turn us into a police state - he's not following the bush edict, he's scared we'll turn on him.

Richard

no, rant mode is not flamin' off :mad:

I heard the other day that little johnny's latest nickname is 'bonsai' - because he's a little bush[/QUOTE]

[silentC]

If you meant that poor people get into stressful situations whereby they make poor decisions, which are largely affected by the stress in their life: and that they should just say "stuff it, I won't take that 1 in 1000 chance, I'll go bankrupt and my kids can get stuffed" ...
No, what I meant was what I said. If you take your life and the lives of others into your hands by pushing the limits whilst driving a moving warehouse, then you are acting dangerously. If your reason for doing this is simply because you want/need to earn more money, then it is a poor excuse. In fact, I can't think of any excuse for it. No one puts a gun to their heads.

The idea that it's OK to put other people at risk because you are having trouble making ends meet is irresponsible. If people are starving, we have a welfare system in place. My BIL hasn't had any steady work for 6 years but his family eats just fine. That's why we pay all these taxes.

My cousin is a truckie and we have this argument a lot. He fudges his log book to avoid penalties. He doesn't pop pills (he says) but knows plenty who do. He doesn't drink and drive but he knows plenty who do.

The price of fuel is pushing him out of the industry. He can't get a petrol subsidy like a lot of owner drivers do because of his situation (not sure why, take his word for it) and it costs a lot of money to keep three trucks on the road. If things keep going the way they are, he'll probably sell them and do something else. That makes more sense than pushing himself and his two drivers harder to get more jobs done and earn more money.


I think the trucking company bosses should be held accountable, and jailed if they put peoples lives at risk by demanding that the drivers work 16 hours a day for days on end.
I agree but my point is that if the drivers pushed back too, then the freight companies would have to do something. But they don't. They keep taking the jobs and pushing the limits to get there on time so that they get the next job. In any other industry, there would be industrial action to stop it happening. In the terms of a union rep, they are being exploited. So they can either sit there and say "someone help me" or they can try to help themselves.

[silentC]

As far as I'm concerned... Now that I've truely experienced Aussie driving, you need all the protection you can get to survive the idiots that are on the roads here. I have never seen so many deliberately stupid drivers as I have here. Nothing personal but aussies are about the worst drivers I've ever seen.
Never been to Asia then, Mat?

[Jack E]

Now that I've truely experienced Aussie driving, you need all the protection you can get to survive the idiots that are on the roads here.
Wait until you leave Queensland, then you will really experience poor driving :D

[bitingmidge]

Wait until you leave Queensland, then you will really experience poor driving :D

I happen to know that the experiences reported on, occurred between the NSW border and Sydney, so even then he hasn't seen the worst of it!

Cheers,

P
:eek:

[adrian]

As far as I'm concerned... Now that I've truely experienced Aussie driving, you need all the protection you can get to survive the idiots that are on the roads here. I have never seen so many deliberately stupid drivers as I have here. Nothing personal but aussies are about the worst drivers I've ever seen.
I've done plenty of driving in France and Italy and their idiots put our idiots to shame. I've never known people who can drive so fast in a traffic jamb. I don't even want to talk about New York. I still can't incurl my toes.

[Clinton1]

Driving in Jakarta, Indonesia is cool.

Total chaos, in a manner that everyone generally conforms to. There is a horn beep code to communicate with. The trouble is that when I get stuck in the traffic jams that basically gridlock the entire city, the carbon monoxideand carbon dioxide levels are so high that my fingernails and the palms of my hands go white from lack of oxygen.
Ahhhh Jakarta, 26 million people in the space of Melbourne. Can you imagine the air quality and smell in the morning when everyone gets up to do their 'evacuations'? A great place to go rat hunting too if you're into that thing.

Off the hijack:
Fuel price - the cost of 1.25 Lt of Coke is cheaper than 1.25 Lt's of ULP. :eek:
Come on the LPG dedicated Falcon - now to convince the missus it should be a 1tonner, not a wagon. If it was for her car, she would go the 1tonner, so long as it had some chrome roll bars - but I am supposed to make the sensible decisions.

[HavinaGo]

On the trucking thing: My comment is not aimed at picking on the drivers. It is aimed at highlighting the silliness of using trucks, 1 driver, several hundred horsepower, rubber tyres, to drag 40-60 tons of freight accross Australia, when 1 train, can drag 1000's of tons of freight using much less fuel per ton.

The problem I want to see solved is that we as a society choose to use the fuel efficient option. That means we gotta find a way for road and rail to play on equal ground (currently trucking gets a free ride in my mind as it does not pay for the roads .... every one else does). We also have to solve the "its gotta be here yesterday" problem.... containers/road-rail trailers .. I'm open to innovation to improve the speed of delivery by trains. Ships between Syd- Melb-Bris are probably even more fuel efficient .. but speed has never been a strong point. I have the belief that there is an answer ... if we can be bothered to find it.

We also need to get the trucking companies out of politics .. or find a way to give the same power of influence to other modes of transport. Lets use trucks where they make sense (delivery at each end) and leave them out of the long distance stuff.

Here is a weird dream. Public railway lines open to anyone to run a train on. Minimum of dual track on all lines. All capitals in Aus interconnected. Passsing loops regularly. Think of the Hume highway, but based on rail with trains buffer to buffer in each direction running at 140kph. No road level crossings. Imagine the mess when it all goes pear shaped ..

Am I a closet greeny? ... probably. :)

[Grunt]

Fuel price - the cost of 1.25 Lt of Coke is cheaper than 1.25 Lt's of ULP.


So it should be. Coke is a renewable resource.

[Dean]

So it should be. Coke is a renewable resource.

The lining of your stomach isnt though :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Clinton1]

The coke comparison was made as it made me realise that my fuel consumption is truly ridiculous. Too bad my public transport option means I'd get no family time.

Havinago - I'm hearing you, and yes, there may well be a better way.
I think that trucks are probably more efficient in a nation that occupies a large area, has little useable river networks (from a freight perspective), and has a small population. Change the rail lay out and that may change.
Freight companies are dropping off using the Adelaide to Darwin rail link for several reasons - I've heard reasons such as: road freight is more economical, reliable, faster and flexible but in the end the market has decided road freight is better. The rail link had stupid levels of subsidy poured into it, so if it cant compete... This Liberal government sticks pretty hard to the theory of letting the market arrive at the best economic outcome, and that may be why road trains are so widely used, simply more competitive.

The point still stands that trucks do pay for the road wear they produce, through rego costs just like car users. I don't know the rego costs and the breakdown of what goes to road repair vs the road repair bill caused by trucks - maybe we should find out.
As always the cost is shifted on to the 'end user', because they are creating the demand, and in effect contracting the freight onto the trucks, by buying truck delivered goods.
The power of influence that you believe truck concerns have may or not exist - maybe its the truck users (you and I) that are creating the influence, by choosing the most efficient option.
Again - yes rail would probably be better if infrastructure was improved - but if its not more efficient then we will all probably scream when we have to pay more for the freight component in our shopping. Rail infrastructure has been run down all over Australia, due to the non-competitive nature of rail, not due to Lindsay Fox having a chat to his Canberra mates.

The point about society choosing the most economic option is demonstrated in my hunt for a LPG dedicated car. Its the option I can afford, i can't afford the BMW/Merc diesel that gets 1300 km to the tank, and the new hybrids are out of my range - I'd love a hybrid. The change happens slowly, and I am sure that I'll be pulling out in front of electric road trains in my methane from sewage powered car when I am 80 and half blind :D
Nothing wrong with being a greenie - a pretty sensible thing to be.

[silentC]

Which sounds better to you?

a. A large infrastructure owned by you and maintained by you, you employ all of the people who make it happen and you take the consequences when it stuffs up.

b. Thousands of individuals who make their own investment, pay for their own maintenance, fund their own leave and superannuation, take their own risks and cop their own flak.

[bitingmidge]

The point about society choosing the most economic option is demonstrated in my hunt for a LPG dedicated car. Its the option I can afford, i can't afford the BMW/Merc diesel that gets 1300 km to the tank, and the new hybrids are out of my range - I'd love a hybrid.

But if you can afford a new LPG monster, you can afford a Citroen or Peugeot, both of whom have been at the forefront of diesel technology for decades, and will cost a LOT less to run over the 500,000k + life of the car.

Cheers,

P

:rolleyes:

[Gingermick]

We also have to solve the "its gotta be here yesterday" problem.... containers/road-rail trailers ..

TARDIS



This Liberal government sticks pretty hard to the theory of letting the market arrive at the best economic outcome, and that may be why road trains are so widely used, simply more competitive.

A market solution to this problem is, at the moment, not profitable. As mush as the conservatives and right wing of lefties spruik the wonders of the free market, until there is a buck to be made, it won't be done. People aren't going to pay huge amounts like they do pharmaceuticals

Digress
Nine just played an emergency call from Katrina and this person was stuck in the attic of her house with a disabled child and the water was rising. I didn't leave it on long enough to see what happened but is it in the public interest to hear an almost hysterical woman pleading for help. If she didn't make it, then it's not a very dignified. Even if she did, it's totally inappropriate for 4.40pm.

[MathewA]

Never been to Asia then, Mat?

I've driven in mexico (trust me they have some very strange road rules and driving conditions) and still found aussie drivers to be far more unbredictable and dangerous. I have driven on every continent except asia and africa and I have yet to find a situation where fully loaded semi trucks routinely drive less than six feet of the back bumper of the car in front until I drove from the Maroochy to Sydney and back.

In a chaotic environment where everyone is driving in a similar fashion it's actually very easy to drive in those situations. But here where there are about 10% of drivers that are absolute idiots it becomes very difficult to anticipate what's going to happen. I drive about 50 km back and forth to work and I see 2 serious incidents where someone has to take serious evasive actions to avoid an accident every week. Usually it appears to involve some idiot that has no idea what mirrors are for and changes lanes very quickly.

[dazzler]

New Landcruiser V8 $68000.00 :D

Cost to fill tank $165.00 :mad:

Gall to tell people you
dont know how to live
thier lives.............................PRICELESS :rolleyes:


dazzler......

gotta go and fill the landcruiser up before we run out.........