Mineral Spirits? ?

[DaveVman]

On YouTube some American was demonstrating "Mineral Spirits" (whatever that is) to remove rust from iron tops.
Is it White Spirits?
Is it mineral turpentine?
Is it Meths?
Is it something else?

Looking at the archives on here, this question was raised in 2003 and again in 2012 but everyone seemed to be confused about this on those threads.
I had a search on Google but then I get people who don't even know the difference between Turps and Meths.
I found someone who claimed:
"White spirits is the same as Mineral spirits according to the UN number. Both are 1268 "
However does the UN number mean they are the same or only that they carry the same risks?

I also found this:
"White Spirit = is a petroleum-derived mixture of aliphatic and alicyclic C7 to C12 hydrocarbons with a maximum content of 25% of C7 to C12 aromatic hydrocarbons. A typical composition for mineral spirits is > 65% C10 or higher hydrocarbons,[6] aliphatic solvent hexane, and a maximum benzene content of 0.1% by volume."


So does that imply 'mineral spirits' is some kind of specific white spirit?

Buggered if I know what C7 to C12 hydrocarbons are but sounds like someone stuck an extra pipe in the oil refinery stack and got a mixture of light stuff they found useful. According to one table I saw it could be anything from a solvent C7 to a jet fuel C12. Apparently C10 is called Decane. Apparently there are 75 isomers of decane including octane and hexane. There are a whole heap of isomers of hexane in 4 different families.
(Yeah it is all pretty much Greek to me too. Another 20 minutes of my life wasted.).
Anyway I'm no wiser about cleaning rust.

Then I read somewhere else that 'mineral spirits' is Shellite.
I know Shellite is lighter fluid and that both white spirits and Shellite are grease solvents but I don't fully understand the difference between these two. I assume White spirits is a stronger degreaser than Shellite but I don't know. I just think they are not the same thing. I've never used Shellite (knowingly).
So is 'mineral spirits' really Shellite?

:?

I don't mind that Americans speak another language but there should be a translator somewhere so we can understand what they are talking about.

[Bohdan]

According to Wikipedia it is "White spirit (UK) or mineral spirits (US, Canada), also known as mineral turpentine (AU/NZ)"

[Lappa]

Also called naphtha, shellite etc.

[BobL]

Mineral spirit is generic term for lots of things as you have found out
You need to get the MSDS for whatever you have purchased and that should tell you what's in it - well maybe not.

C7 to C12 refers to the number of carbon atoms on the molecule.
C7 molecules will have 7 atoms of Carbon on it.
Simple version: Mineral oil from the ground comes out with a wide range of molecules ranging from
Methane (C1), Ethane(C2) . . . . .. Heptane (C7) Octane (C8), . . . . . . Dodecane (C12) etc
The first few are gasses, then the C5, C8s and up to C17s are liquids and the C20's are solids like tar but melt at around 40-50C

When oil is refined refineries can extract all permutations and combos of molecules and they mix and match these to sell as petroleum products
Suppliers of mineral spirit will mix and match from those according to price, availability and what they think is right.

If you look on Wikipedia you will see that in scientific terms there are 6 CAS (Chemical Abstracts Service) definitions used for mineral or white spirit so that chemists around the world can talk to each other but in the commercial world there's no common naming convention that applies.
One way to think of it is as the "beer" of petroleum products.

[DaveVman]

According to Wikipedia it is "White spirit (UK) or mineral spirits (US, Canada), also known as mineral turpentine (AU/NZ)"
To me that sounds like another example of fake information on Wikipedia where anyone can edit it.
If British call Turps 'white spirits' then what do they call white spirits?
And Americans don't use the word Terpentine to refer to mineral terpentine? Then what do they call Turps?
I'm not sure but I thought I heard an American talk about terpentine before. What were they talking about if it wasn't turps?
Don't think I'll take that Wikipedia page too seriously.


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[Jrm02]

In Canada mineral mineral spirits is most commonly sold as paint thinner ( for oil based enamels). The Esso brand is varsol. Other solvents we can buy in the hardware store are naphtha (aka white gas also used for Colman stoves & lanterns), lacquer thinner, xylene, toluene, turpentine and methyl hydrate (alcohol).


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[A Duke]

Hi,
Turpentine Comes from pine trees and is not the stuff we call turpentine here.
Some times you see it stressed when it matters in some formulas.
Regards
The terminology is Gum Turpentine and Mineral Turpentine. Does not matter for thinning paint and varnish but can be crucial in some finishing concoctions.

[BobL]

To me that sounds like another example of fake information on Wikipedia where anyone can edit it.
If British call Turps 'white spirits' then what do they call white spirits?
And Americans don't use the word Terpentine to refer to mineral terpentine? Then what do they call Turps?
I'm not sure but I thought I heard an American talk about terpentine before. What were they talking about if it wasn't turps?
Don't think I'll take that Wikipedia page too seriously.

The names are largely irrelevant because all they are really saying is beer, p1$$, grog, hooch, juice, and booze.
This drives chemists nuts so they deal in CAS or EC (european) chemical numbers
If you want to read a 72 page technical document where the Europeans are trying to "harmonise" the naming of white spirit then here it is
https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/13641/adopted_annex1_bd_for_white_spirit_en.pdf

Anyway while I'm not an expert in organic chemistry I do know enough to say the science on the WIkipedia page looks correct.

The reality about the names is they they are just labels used interchangeably for stuff that contain a bunch of different/similar solvents.
Thats's why you have to consult the MSDS (and their CAS numbers) and even some of those are a bit contradictory

Here's an extract from Diggers turps - this is "low aromatic turps" so its main constituent "low aromatic white spirit" has a CAS number (64742-82-1).
This is not even listed on the Wikipedia page on White Spirit but I believe its a variant of T1 white spirit, CAS number 64475-85-0


<colgroup><col style=" 52.951304%"><col style=" 23.525386%"><col style=" 23.523310%"> </colgroup><tbody>
Chemical Entity



CAS Number



Proportion (%)





Low Aromatic White Spirit



64742-82-1



100





With components:





1,2,4-Trimethylbenzene



95-63-6



< 10





1,3,5-Trimethylbenzene



108-67-8



< 10





Xylene, Mixed Isomers



1330-20-7



< 10





Note – contains < 0.1% benzene




</tbody>


CAS number 64742-82-1 is sold by dozens of companies around the world under the following names
PetroleuM benzine (http://www.lookchem.com/product_PetroleuM-benzine/13868402.html)
Naphtha (petroleum),hydrodesulfurized heavy (http://product.lookchem.com/info/11117148/Naphtha-petroleum-hydrodesulfurized-heavy_64742-82-1.html)
PETROLEUM ETHER (http://product.lookchem.com/info/11765106/PETROLEUM-ETHER_64742-82-1.html)
TIANFU-CHEM PETROLEUM ETHER (http://product.lookchem.com/info/15856682/TIANFU-CHEM-PETROLEUM-ETHER_64742-82-1.html)
Aromatic White Spirit Solvent (http://product.lookchem.com/info/15235850/Aromatic-White-Spirit-Solvent_64742-82-1.html)
TIANFU-CHEM PETROLEUM ETHER (http://product.lookchem.com/info/16127698/TIANFU-CHEM-PETROLEUM-ETHER_64742-82-1.html)
CSR160805-26244 (http://product.lookchem.com/info/15763198/CSR160805-26244_64742-82-1.html)

Included in the 100% of the Diggers turps could be up to 10% Xylene, a C8 molecule as are the 3 other possible benzene like components.
The claim is Less than 0.1% pure benzene which is good, as it is a class A1 carcinogen.

I'll bet you are sorry you asked. :)

[DaveVman]

In Canada mineral mineral spirits is most commonly sold as paint thinner ( for oil based enamels). The Esso brand is varsol. Other solvents we can buy in the hardware store are naphtha (aka white gas also used for Colman stoves & lanterns), lacquer thinner, xylene, toluene, turpentine and methyl hydrate (alcohol).


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To me, this is the best evidence yet that their mineral spirits is our white spirits or close to it.
White spirits can be used as a paint thinner. It is a less powerful solvent than mineral terpentine but it is almost odourless and is less irritable to the skin.

I once was using a lot turps and so without thinking I left the turps soaked rag in my side pocket as I worked at a marina. At first it just felt damp. Then slowly I felt this strange sensation annoying me while I was trying to concentrate. Then came the burn! By then my whole hip side of my jeans was soaked in the stuff. Ooch! And I was 20km from a change of clothes! Hhahaha!
Now I wash my hands pretty much straight after using turps.




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[DaveVman]

The names are largely irrelevant because all they are really saying is beer, p1$$, grog, hooch, juice, and booze.
This drives chemists nuts so they deal in CAS or EC (european) chemical numbers
...

The reality about the names is they they are just labels used interchangeably for stuff that contain a bunch of different/similar solvents.
....

I'll bet you are sorry you asked. :)

Yes and no.
At least I understand why the confusion and roughly what these things are thanks to your post.
Thanks.

So does the UN number establish what it is or is that something else like its volatility?

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[BobL]

Yes and no.
At least I understand why the confusion and roughly what these things are thanks to your post.
Thanks.

So does the UN number establish what it is or is that something else like its volatility?

I assume you mean CAS or EC number?

These numbers more tightly define the contents, and its the contents will usually determine its physical properties like volatility.

[justonething]

To me, this is the best evidence yet that their mineral spirits is our white spirits or close to it.
White spirits can be used as a paint thinner. It is a less powerful solvent than mineral terpentine but it is almost odourless and is less irritable to the skin.

I once was using a lot turps and so without thinking I left the turps soaked rag in my side pocket as I worked at a marina. At first it just felt damp. Then slowly I felt this strange sensation annoying me while I was trying to concentrate. Then came the burn! By then my whole hip side of my jeans was soaked in the stuff. Ooch! And I was 20km from a change of clothes! Hhahaha!
Now I wash my hands pretty much straight after using turps.

It's not. Looking at the MSDS of mineral spirits (http://CAS# 64475-85-0), the constituents is the Stoddard solvent CAS# 64475-85-0. While the white spirits is actually Naphtha CAS 64742-82-1 (http://www.recochem.com.au/files/downloads/White_Spirits_Jan15.pdf) which is also the constituents of low odour turpentine (https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product/7c9f34df-24d1-4169-849c-bdbce1a37cf9.pdf). The normal turps is a mixture of mostly the same Naptha mixed with with another Naptha CAS 64742-95-6 (https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product/afc48cd2-735c-4ba0-b149-c8f5dc146779.pdf).

White spirit and turps have by and large the same ingredients and low odour turps is white spirit by another name. So if mineral spirits is close to white spirits as you epoused then Wikipedia's "fake information" is actually saying the same thing.

[BobL]

It's not. Looking at the MSDS of mineral spirits (http://CAS# 64475-85-0), the constituents is the Stoddard solvent CAS# 64475-85-0. While the white spirits is actually Naphtha CAS 64742-82-1 (http://www.recochem.com.au/files/downloads/White_Spirits_Jan15.pdf) which is also the constituents of low odour turpentine (https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product/7c9f34df-24d1-4169-849c-bdbce1a37cf9.pdf).

Referring to one MSDS and assuming it applies across all products with that name can lead to problems that's why you need to look at the MSDS for the product you have in your hand

Stoddard solvent is CAS# 8052-41-3 , and just to add to the confusion CAS# 64475-85-0 is White Spirit Type1
Those and 4 other CAS# are technically White spirit (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit)




The Wikipedia pages has the right CAS#

I looked up a few other MSDS and here's what they have listed for Mineral sprits ; 64742-47-8, 8052-41-3 , 68551-17-7 (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search?term=68551-17-7&interface=CAS%20No.&N=0&mode=partialmax&lang=en&region=AU&focus=product)While for White spirits I came across 64742-88-7 , 64742-95-6, 64742-89-8, 8052-41-3, 64742-82-1
Note that 8052-41-3 appears in both lists.

The Europeans are trying to standardise the name white spirit to only contain one or more of

8052-41-3, 64742-82-1, and 64742-88-7.

[justonething]

Referring to one MSDS and assuming it applies across all products with that name can lead to problems that's why you need to look at the MSDS for the product you have in your hand

Stoddard solvent is CAS# 8052-41-3 , and just to add to the confusion CAS# 64475-85-0 is White Spirit Type1
Those and 4 other CAS# are technically White spirit (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit)




The Wikipedia pages has the right CAS#

I looked up a few other MSDS and here's what they have listed for Mineral sprits ; 64742-47-8, 8052-41-3 , 68551-17-7 (http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/search?term=68551-17-7&interface=CAS%20No.&N=0&mode=partialmax&lang=en&region=AU&focus=product)While for White spirits I came across 64742-88-7 , 64742-95-6, 64742-89-8, 8052-41-3, 64742-82-1
Note that 8052-41-3 appears in both lists.

The Europeans are trying to standardise the name white spirit to only contain one or more of

8052-41-3, 64742-82-1, and 64742-88-7.


I don't have a problem with what you say and like you say previously, "names are largely irrelevant". But however I do have an issue to when one says mineral spirit is the same as white spirit but white spirit is not the same as mineral turpentine. Either you should consider their equivalence strictly irrespective of their names. Or they are closed enough to say that information on Wikipedia that "White spirit (UK)[note 1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-1) or mineral spirits (US, Canada),[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-2)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-3)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-4) also known as mineral turpentine (AU/NZ), turpentine substitute, petroleum spirits, solvent naphtha (petroleum), varsol, Stoddard solvent,[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-5)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-6) or, generically, "paint thinner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_thinner)", is a petroleum-derived clear liquid used as a common organic solvent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvent) in painting and decorating." is correct and not fake.

[BobL]

I don't have a problem with what you say and like you say previously, "names are largely irrelevant". But however I do have an issue to when one says mineral spirit is the same as white spirit but white spirit is not the same as mineral turpentine. Either you should consider their equivalence strictly irrespective of their names. Or they are closed enough to say that information on Wikipedia that "White spirit (UK)[note 1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-1) or mineral spirits (US, Canada),[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-2)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-3)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-4) also known as mineral turpentine (AU/NZ), turpentine substitute, petroleum spirits, solvent naphtha (petroleum), varsol, Stoddard solvent,[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-5)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit#cite_note-6) or, generically, "paint thinner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_thinner)", is a petroleum-derived clear liquid used as a common organic solvent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvent) in painting and decorating." is correct and not fake.


Well I know folks that are in your camp because they buy their white spirit from a supplier and it contains X (their MSDS says that) they say it's definitely not the same as turps which it's MSDS confirms because it says it contains somethings else. They appreciate the differences because for a particular application they need it just so and that's fine,

However, just down the road if they bothered to look they might find someone flogging a different turps containing the same X as their local white spirit. Then if you extend that to all around the world it's all over the place - there are no standard contents for any of those products. Which is why the Wikipedia statement is mostly correct. In your corner of Melbourne there may may indeed be a difference.

It's a bit like petrol - its not a single brew.
Wikipedia. says, It is a mixture of paraffins (alkanes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkane)), cycloalkanes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloalkane)(naphthenes), and olefins (alkenes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkene)) and ethers and other additives,
It's called gasoline, petrol, juice, gas etc - is it all the same - no it isn't but all these names are still used for it.

[Big Shed]

Been trying to stay out of this as this has been done to death any number of times and usually everyone has made up their mind before they post so it is usually a waste of keyboard time.

Anyway here goes. Been a paint chemist for more years that I care to remember and we used a number of solvents amongst them BOTH White Spirits and Mineral Turpentine.

The main one used in oil based paints was Mineral Turps, but for certain specialist reasons we used White Spirits because Mineral Turps was not suitable.

One of those specialist reasons was in oil based enamels for sign writers, these guys did a lot of sign writing on clear polycarbonate sheet. If we used Mineral Turps as the solvent in these enamels, the polycarbonate would (very dramatically) stress crack. This was due to the high aromatic content in the Mineral Turps. So we used White Spirits because of it's relatively low aromatics, ergo no stress cracking on polycarbonate.

We would also use White Spirits when we wanted to lower the solids content of our cheaper trade enamels without them getting too thin, becuase of the lower aromatics in White Spirits it wouldn't "cut" the viscosity as quickly as Mineral Turps.

I could go on, but basically the Wikipedia article is incorrect, what is called White Spirits in the UK is also called White Spirits in Oz, it is equivalent to Mineral Spirits in the US.

It is yet another example that you should always take anything on Wikicamps with a large dose of scepticism.

Think about it, why would a company like Diggers sell both White Spirits and Mineral Turpentine, why would Bunnings stock both, if they are the same product. They are not.

PS Can you guys explain to me why you find it necessary to quote complete posts that you are replying to when that post is right above your reply? So forum members have to scroll past those big slabs of text twice, very annoying. It is just as easy to hit Reply as it is to hit Reply with Quote.

[justonething]

...why would Bunnings stock both, if they are the same product. They are not.
To answer your rhetorical question, bunnings do stock products that are exactly the same other than their names, and on the shelf at vastly different prices :)

https://www.bunnings.com.au/diggers-1l-low-odour-turpentine_p1670043 (https://www.bunnings.com.au/diggers-1l-white-spirit_p1563471) at 14.18
https://www.bunnings.com.au/diggers-1l-white-spirit_p1563471 at $8.25


Your should check out their MSDSs to see how vastly different they are.



white spirit (https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product/1a4bc773-d786-4bc0-b300-1a7e5c9d770c.pdf)
low odour turps (https://2ecffd01e1ab3e9383f0-07db7b9624bbdf022e3b5395236d5cf8.ssl.cf4.rackcdn.com/Product/7c9f34df-24d1-4169-849c-bdbce1a37cf9.pdf)

[Big Shed]

Knew I was wasting my keyboard time.

I will now leave this to the "experts".

[bueller]

PS Can you guys explain to me why you find it necessary to quote complete posts that you are replying to when that post is right above your reply? So forum members have to scroll past those big slabs of text twice, very annoying. It is just as easy to hit Reply as it is to hit Reply with Quote.

I know there are times when I do it unintentionally on Tapatalk, if you've selected a user's post it changes the context of the reply button so that it includes a quote. Don't always notice because it's not immediately obvious that a post is selected it you've scrolled past it.

[DaveVman]

So 'mineral spirits' in USA may or may not be white spirits or they might be something similar to white spirits. Is that the consensus?

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[ubeaut]

What's in a name????

Mineral spirits, mineral turpentine, white spirit, turps, the loosely named paint thinners, stoddards solvent (or solution), turpentine substitute, varsol, and possibly a few other names in foreign languages, are all basically the same thing just with different names and sometimes different prices.

Six of one and half a dozen of the other. All will basically do the same thing but some do it better in different situations or with less smell, as Big Shed rightly said.

They are all just common names for a similar product and all will basically do the same thing.

Victoria potato cakes, NSW potato scallop same thing different name.
Bathing suite, swimmers, togs, trunks, budge smugglers, etc, etc, etc. They're all basically the same thing just different names.

Go buy some turps and stop worrying about the names.


Just as an aside:
I've mentioned this before but never hurts to say it again.

Mineral turpentine and all the others mentioned above are safer to use than pure turpentine (gum turpentine) which is believed by some to cause nasty problems if absorbed through the pores of the skin including kidney failure, whilst fumes can damage central nervous system, lungs and more.

So use it with care. For that matter use all of the above with care. Potato cakes/scallops not included.

Cheers - Neil :U

[ian]

snip
matter use all of the above with care. Potato cakes/scallops not included.

potato scallops are deep fried, so should be consumed with caution if your waist line is important to you

[DaveVman]

Personally I've never come across the original turps from trees. It has always been mineral turpentine. But then again, I'm no expert in such things.

I posit that the deep fried potatoes are the most dangerous of the lot. I personally don't know of anyone with serious health problems from too much turps but I know of quite a few with serious health problems from too many deep fried potatoes.....sheesh I really need to get away from the computer and do something useful!!!

[soundman]

Just to weigh in on som practical issues.

As far as I understand, "mineral Spirits" in the US is what we call "mineral turps".

As far as I understand shellite is the same as white spirit but with a trade name that you pay for and some colouring. ....... likewise coleman fuel. ..... and dry cleaning fluid.

in use, mineral turps is oilyer than white spirit ....... I find that white spirit works better when thinning polly varnish, and tends less the make it go milky ..... I use white spirit when spraying pretty much any turps bassed product.

White spirit is all so good as a parts cleaner as it evaporates without residue.

back to the acrillic ....... clear acrilic sheet is effected by mineral oil ..... get pretty much anything oily on it and it will craze sometime in the future .... hence the turps problem.

all of the above come from a similar base as petrol.

White spirit is pretty much a clean white solvent, very much like petrol without most of the nasty stuff.

cheers

[Xanthorrhoeas]

What's in a name????

Mineral turpentine and all the others mentioned above are safer to use than pure turpentine (gum turpentine) which is believed by some to cause nasty problems if absorbed through the pores of the skin including kidney failure, whilst fumes can damage central nervous system, lungs and more.

So use it with care. Cheers - Neil :U

Thanks Neil,

It is really important to get that message out there and to keep repeating it.

Unfortunately, gum turpentine smells really nice (at least to me) and because it is also sometimes marketed as "natural turpentine" has also, in the past, mistakenly been thought to be safer to use than mineral turps. You know how it goes "if its natural it must be better for you" which completely ignores the fact that snake venom and many other chemicals found in the bush are natural but none-the-less very poisonous.

My wife is an artist - in oil paint on copper panels amongst many other visual art creations - and when she was taught to oil paint in the 1970s-80s she was advised to ONLY use "natural" turps. More recent advice is that the gum turps can have a very bad affect on memory amongst other aspects of brain function. She blames her poor memory on it anyway.

Many otherwise excellent furniture polishes also have a good dose of gum turps in them as the solvent, so antiques-lovers beware.

David

[DaveVman]

We used white spirits to clean parts of precision mechanisms back in the day because it left no residue.

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