Hot water system - Temperature regulations

[notrot]

Hello all,
We have just installed a new Gas hot water storage system (Rheem Stellar) and the plumber has installed a "tempering valve" to reduce the temperature of the hot water coming out of the tank.
He says its the "regulations"
Does anyone know whose regulation it is?
Is there a way around it?
50 degress does not seem very hot at all and my concern is that there won't be enough pressure for a decent shower unless I mix more cold water with the hot.
The tempering valve does have what appears to be a triangular adjustment "device". Will adjusting this be enough to boost the temperature of the water? Or should I chase the relevant authority (when I find out who it is) to try to have the valve removed?
By the way - the new system replaces an old off peak electric system, and there have been significant renovations conducted.

Or should I just wait till the renovation is complete and certified and just have the valve removed afterwards

Thanks in advance
Regards

[gsouth]

in NSW the law is that the tempering vlvel needs to deliver hot water at 50 deg C +- 5 deg

There are a few links on this if you google for hot water temper NSW

[ozwinner]

Im all for not scalding kids with hot water, but please, when I cant get a HOT shower after a hard days work.........................
All because of some bleeding hearts in an Ivory tower, ( insert some sooky little voice here ) ......owwh it too hot.

We had a solar hot water service fitted 2 years ago, they, ( the men ) set it to 50 ( insert degree thingy here) when there wasnt enough sun, man I can piddle warmer than that.
Needles to say it got changed pretty quickly.

Al :(

[notrot]

I'm not infavour of scalding children either, but surely common sense should prevail. Do we regulate stairs or ban them incase a child falls down them? or the other multitude of mishaps that could occur in and around the home let alone in the big wild world.

Note: there are no children in the house.

Paul

[spartan]

This seems right. I have a have a continous flow hot water system. No storage and the maximum temp you can get from that is 50 deg. It is however, meant to be used as hot water only, i.e., no mixing of cold water - that's what makes it efficient in terms of gas and hot water use. Normal temps therefore for kids baths and showers are 39 deg, adults 41 -44, we would only use 50 degree for washing etc.

We can set the temp via teh controller in all the bathrooms. If we didn't have the controllers we would have to mix cold water....the water would start at 50 degrees and be cooled with cold water.

Personally, 41 degree showers is as hot as I can take. 50 degrees is uncomfortable for washing up...

[Luddite]

Could I suggest you contact Rheem direct, they have their own technical service people. They are at Rydalmere (NSW) and you can contact them on 02 9684 9100.

Gas storage systems are very good in that they are attached to mains pressure, therefore the pressure of your hot water is the same as your cold (assuming there are no problems with your hot water pipes). These systems are far superior to the old roof mounted, gravity fed things that you need to run around under just to get wet.

It is best not to adjust the tempering valve, nor remove it. There are 1000s of people living happily with these systems, and if your's is not working well, you probably should call the installer back.

Hope this helps,
Anthony

[GlennLogan]

Hi,

went through this with Rinnai - I have a continuous hot water system and can dial the temperature to exact shower temp - but what a pain to check this at 6AM in the morning. A cold tap to mix with hot works well at any time!

I also wanted to be able to crank up the temperature for my dishwasher and washing machine. Both of these machines will heat the water to the temperature they want, I think to 60 degreres. Now this takes time and money!!! (btw - yes I know can operate at lower temps than 50 but that's another thread).

Rinnai explained they can up the temperature (by entering a few simple button pushes on the control panel) but they wouldn't allow this unless 1. each washing outlet (sink/bath/shower) had a temperature regulating valve to limit temp to 50 degrees, and 2. it was done by a qualified plumber (they would describe the exact button sequence when he was ready).

This is done to comply with regulations....http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon8.gif

Anyway I played a bit and managed to get it upto to 55 degrees by trial and error button pushing.http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif



Glenn

[notrot]

Thanks Anthony,
I did ring Rheem and was told to turn the temp up to 7 on the heater system. I explained that the temp in the tank wasnt the real issue it was the valve that was mixing the cold water with it after it left the tank. I was told I dint have to have the valve.
No doubt either they didnt understand or just wanted me to go away or dint fully realise it was a "new instalation" and therefore subject to new regulations, OR maybe I was unlucky and just got a "live one" on the line. I have quite a few of those since this renovation began, let me see, the plumber has made 14 mistakes so far, I have a door jamb that has been set to high, the door hardware had to go back 4 times (yes, 4 times) before they got it right, I had the wrong bath delivered, the wrong windows delived, they guy at the tile arehouse has trouble counting and.... well the list goes on.
But hey maybe I din't explain properly to Rheem I will try again.....laugh

Thanks
Paul

[silkwood]

Firstly, if you need (want?) more than 50deg in the shower you are an amazing man. The reason ALL bathroom temperatures are regulated at this is to avoid scalding and UNHEALTHY excessive temperatures (can you spell "HEART ATTACK"?). In fact you can have systems set to deliver more than this to the rest of the house but only if the bathroom is seperately regulated.

Rinnai do two systems, one which has the whole house tempered and one (as you've mentioned) which allows higher temperatures to other areas.

As for your dishwasher you are better off using it hooked up to the cold tap and letting it heat it's own water(don't believe everything the salesman tells you). If you have a storage unit, such as the excellent Stellar, you are wasting energy storing the water that your dishwasher can more efficiently heat when it needs it. If you have an instantaneous sytem you will be wasting water (any idea how much instantaneous systems waste before they start to heat?).

I can well understand you wanting higher temperatures in the kitchen and laundry but, as you are finding, this is probably something to organise during construction otherwise it can be costly. Of course, unfortunately most folk don't know they have to ask the question until it's too late.

cheers, :)

[Bella]

Sorry, off the subject for a second.

We want to get a Rheem Stellar too. How much did you pay?

[custos]

I don't think people read your post properly notrot. The problem is not getting a shower hotter than 50 degrees -- if all you use is hot water the pressure is poor. It's also not that great washing dishes in lukewarm water -- the temp might be 50 degrees out of the system but by the time it gets to the outlet...

The regulation is:

In all buildings, (except childhood centres, primary and secondary schools and nursing homes or similar facilities for aged, sick or disabled persons), the following requirements apply for all new hot water installations and for installation of replacement hot water heaters if changes are required to the pipework: the temperature at the point of delivery in bathrooms and en suites is to be limited to 50°C. Tempering valves are currently required to be fitted for: keypad temperature controlled hot water heaters and flow through type hot water heaters storage heaters.
In childhood centres, primary and secondary schools and nursing homes or similar facilities for aged, sick or disabled persons the temperature limit is 43.5°C at the outlet of all sanitary fixtures used primarily for personal hygiene purposes.

In order to meet this regulation plumbers can fit temperature metering device at the outlet (preferred) or at the tank. If fitted at the outlet (ie. the point of delivery) you can have 50 degree water in bathrooms and much hotter in kitchens laundries etc. However, most plumbers only used temperature metering valves at the tank because it's easier and cheaper. Note, it's not a solution to just turn down your hot water system because the water should be stored at 70 degrees to prevent bacterial contamination etc.

Anyway, we had exactly the same problem with a Rheem gas hot water system. The regulation is to prevent accidental scalding but we don't have small children in the house anymore so it was just a pain. Turning the dial up to 7, as you noted, will do nothing. The metering valve (triangle adjustment thing) mixes cold water with the hot water flowing out of the tank, to try to get the proportions right so as to deliver the water at 50 degrees. You can just turn it (say a quarter turn) with pliers to get hotter water. I'm not suggesting you do that of course (under legal advice :D ) but it worked for me.

[Bodgy]

I recently replaced a gravity fed off peak system with a continuous supply instant gas water heater. Exactly the same problem as you guys have experienced. I bought the heater and got our local plumber to fit, he wouldn't cause it did not have the 50degree limiter. I got it replaced by a system that did. My system also came with a touch pad that allows you to regulate the temp yourself when in the shower/shower room.

I choose not to install that (yet anyway). Had I so installed, then the plumber could have omitted the 50 degree temp limiter valve.

I have to say that interference by the fed/state/council/ do-gooders/bleeding hearts/lefty onanists/lawyers seems the growth industry of the last decade. I can understand regulating water temp in a public, commercial, kindy, aged care environment but I am responsible for my own kids, visitors and health, not some public employee.

Incidentally, there is currently an unfunded public servant's superannuation fund liability on the Fed government to the tune of $3.2 billion annually - almost exactly the cost of the proposed Turnbull tax cut options!

Not only are we being stifled into extinction by regulation, our lives and culture shading steadily into grey monotones but we're paying top $$ too!

What a spray! I feel better now, I'll just go and take my medication.

[ozwinner]

From Rinnai

http://www.rinnai.com.au/h_water/..%5Cpdf%5CHW%20man.pdf

"b) Remote Water Temperature Control






Controls are optional on all models except the Eco 16 and


Heavy Duty. These enable the user to adjust the hot water

temperature between 37 and 55°C (37-38-39-40-41-42-43-

44-45-46-48-50-55), at up to three locations around the home

such as the bathroom, ensuite and kitchen. The unit is preset

to 55°C at the factory as the standard maximum temperature

— higher maximum temperatures (up to 75°C) are available,

if required, for particular applications. The Heavy Duty is preset to 85°C (without remote controls)

for high-temperature applications. This preset temperature cannot be changed."



Apparently anyone who buys their product is to dumb the figure out that water gets hot, so they save youse all the brain work and do it for you.

Al :D

[Wildman]

More rubbish regulations to "save us from ourselves" from morons in government with no concept of what it is like to live in the real world. Dont even get me started on the impending banning of "non retracting" utility knives. Apparently someone cut himself really badly so we all have to suffer. Wouldnt it be better to make sure his mummy taught him that cutting toward yourself with a sharp knife is a bad idea and if you do and you die then it is your own fault and you should be more responsible for your own actions, however stupid they are.

[davidt]

We have just installed a Rinai Infinity26 continuous flow system. They are available in both 50 degree preset and 'hot as possible' versions. The only difference between these 2 is the preset version is epoxied to the 50 degree max. The 'hot as possible' version comes preset to 50 degrees as well, but one can pay a serviceman $150 to come out and 'unlimit' the temperature (or one can open the front cover and turn switch 3 on ;) - I had to supply a stat dec from my plumber to find this out). We have a tempering valve installed to control the 2 bathrooms max temp. We have been warned that the Council (Kuringai in Sydney) will check the bathroom temperature, but we should have 75 degree (ish) water in the kitchen and laundry.

David

[Bodgy]

We have been warned that the Council (Kuringai in Sydney) will check the bathroom temperature,
David

Thanks David, that's a great help.

We suffer under the same Council, apparently either first or second on the 'worst council in NSW' measured by DA waits, regs, Land @ Environment appeals etc.

I could list my, my neighbours and my friends horror stories with these people, but the post would consume all available storage.

If you live within their area, the concept of 'property ownership' and the reasonable rights to determine one's own environment (without in any way effecting others) does not exist.

Most appeals to Dept L&E are upheld, but the time and $$ involved usually preclude this avenue.

[Wildman]

Surely these tempering valves require a cold water feed to regulate the temperature. Can't you just cut it off or crimp it down?

[davidt]

Bodgy,

we have the extra joy of heritage listing - I know all about the vagaries of Kuringai Council (DA required to put kitchen and 2 bathrooms back in the location of the originals etc). We bought our house as "Gordon bombsite" and have had to jump through hoops to get the place sorted out (or at least on the road to sorted). This has not been assisted by the fact that the previous owners launched into a variety of illegal works (including gutting said kitchen and bathrooms, bricking up 7 doorways...) and were stopped by council.

David

[ChrisH]

Wildman
"can't you just cut it off or crimp it down?"

no, they are too smart for that.

If the cold water supply is cut, the valve blocks altogether.

I went through this whole excercise recently. I am building a house with solar hot water and solar power. Hot water has boosting from wood stove. For me, the issue is that IF the solar has little input on one day or I don't run the fire long enough, the water temperature in the tank might only be 40 or 50 degrees. Unfortunately, the way these tempering valves work, they ALWAYS bleed in a bit of cold water, whether it is necessary or not. So if the hot water in the tank is 45 degrees (plenty hot enough for a shower) the damn valve will add cold water down to about 35 degrees. (Min temp drop is 10 degrees). The valves are designed on the assumption that the incoming water will be 60 degrees minimum. So for a solar hot water system without gas or electric boost, they are a real pain. I had a bugger of a job explaining all this to the plumber.
The good news is that there is an alternative. You can also get a device to attach to the tap (or between the shower rose and the wall) which instantly blocks the water flow if the temp at the tap exceeds 50 degrees. I bought one to try in my existing home, I think it's great. If triggered, it still allows a tiny dribble of water through, so that you can reset the taps and as the cooler water reaches the sensor, it resets and lets full flow through, takes about a minute to reset. We have low pressure gravity feed and it still works fine. The gadgets cost about $30 each and you need one for each outlet in the bathroom, there are specific ones for basin, bath and shower. Kitchen and laundry are unaffected.

They are NOT recognised as a legal replacement for a tempering valve in Victoria but I haven't told the plumber that. (Hope he doesn't read this site)

I phoned the mfr for info and he got quite agitated, saying that they were not legal to sell in Vic and demanded to know where they were for sale, which is wrong, they are legal but cannot be installed instead of a temp valve, but in older installations where a temp valve isn't required, they are legal.
I had a bugger of a time finding this all out, in fact I had better get down and buy the ones for the new house before they get withdrawn from sale.
Yes I know it isn't 100% legal but it does the job and won't give me cold showers.
Chris

[old fart]

We have a dux hot water system,and it has a small triangular shaped control,with which you can adjust the water temp.When we first moved in the water in the kitchen was only luke warm,would not melt grease,fat from fry pans etc, after adjustment it is plenty hot, you need a small spanner which fits this valve and the valve can be turned in or out to adjust the temp.