Using shipping container as foundation?

[Zeeber]

I’ve been looking on the internet for information but unfortunately when you search for “using a shipping container for a foundation” it shows you hundreds of websites on how to build a foundation FOR a shipping container home, not using it as the foundation… So, can anyone please comment on any of the following (any ideas, rules, regulations that you know about, someone who has done it, obstacles you can envisage – literally anything you can think of):

I want to build a kit home – it is the steel frame variety. When they sell it to you, they don’t include the foundations – that is up to you. The options so far have been a concrete foundation, or piers and piles (either steel or wood).

My idea is to buy two 40ft shipping containers, then bury them on the site, put steel beams across the top, the same as you would if you had a conventional foundation, and then put the house on top. The steel beams would be bolted to the shipping containers. I’m not sure at this point, but it could also be a good idea to cut a hole in the top, put a small staircase in and use it as a wine cellar or similar type storage.

Any reasons why this wouldn’t work? Structural strength of the containers? Rust issues if they’re buried? And if so, could you wrap them in damp seal? Ground water, council approval, or any other things I should be considering?

[Simplicity]

Containers
I'm sorry are not designed for burying.
They are not designed to carry a side load on the walls.
They are designed to carry a load on each corner.
We are currently building a container home
Above ground.
I know this is short but hope that helps but properly not what you wanted to hear.
Matt

[jhovel]

... and they would float.
If you had a big wet and the ground got soaked and the containers were surrounded by water or wet soil, they would lift and support around 83 tone EACH (minus their own weight).
Lets say they weigh 2 tons plus a ton of wine and staircase inside them, that would be around 160 tons of house on top of them that they would be able to float.....

[Simplicity]

A 12 metre 40 footer weighs 4 ton empty

[Bushmiller]

Possibly the real question is why do you wish to do this as opposed to a conventional footing (technically I believe foundation is the soil and bedrock)?

If your suggestion was plausible, and I would have severe reservations about that because of waterproofing, rust and the swimming pool syndrome (only ten times worse) what are the advantages?

I can see that you have around 140m3 of soil to dig out and then dispose of. Then you have to accurately level the base of the hole so your shipping containers sit level. They themselves will still need at least some form of footing so they don't sink. The 40' containers need special trucks to deliver or a crane on site to unload them. Oh, you are going to need a crane to sit them in the hole too.

While the idea of a wine cellar may be hugely appealing, this means the containers would have to have a lot of waterproofing. Have a look at the paraphernalia involved with waterproofing an earth sheltered home to get some idea of the difficulties. A good quality (and it must be good to stand a chance of lasting) container will be in excess of $3000 plus delivery. I see you are Melbourne based so you might get them cheaper there. Finally, and this is the nightmare, you have to get it through council. There you are probably going to butt heads with people who make Tony Abbott look like a radical!

I am speaking from a standpoint of using two shipping containers to build a shed above ground! My hat off to Simplicity for his ambitious project. I am sure he would be able to able to tell us some interesting tales.

A concrete slab is starting to look good.

Regards
Paul

[chris0375]

Do not Bury containers. They will crush. They will float. They will rust. They aren't overly strong. They will leak.

I am sorry but I don't like your idea at all. If done properly it won't be economic.

I am guessing you also need to get council/building surveyors/engineers approval? That could be difficult and expensive.

If anything goes wrong you could potentially be up for a very expensive fix.

I am guessing you are doing a kit home to save money. Earth retaining structures are expensive and complicated. If you have room do a completely separate shed.

Or do an underground structure somewhere other than under your house and put a lawn/garden etc over the top.

[Bushmiller]

Zeeber

I hope you don't think us (and particularly me) too negative. It really is like having a few buckets of cold water poured over you. I am not unreceptive to using shipping containers for building projects:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/f245/studio-181897

Regards
Paul

[ACT_Grumbles]

An intriguing proposal - but there are a few hairy bits to be considered.

The primary strength of a shipping container is the HEAVY portal frame at each end of the steel box - while the intermediate steel sheet prevents racking and torsion. Any modification to the walls [or roof/floor] has to be reinforced correctly, and usually via an engineers design to meet council specs. Simplicity is now all over this!]

Most fresh water in Australia is underground - but much is brackish or even very saline. Salt water is extremely damaging to mild steel. I suspect that underground steel containers - and require a generous layer of waterproof concrete around the box - as noted - May as well pour proper footings.

BushMill - I am more intrigued by your proposal - I came from Toowoomba some years ago, and a container in the Qld sun, was really a solar kiln. An open side tin shed allowed the breeze through - this seems far more user friendly.

It does seem counter intuitive - but mild steel boxes are really poor construction materials for the 30-100 years that we expect a house to perform. Even modern steel reinforced concrete has a distinct life span when confronted with acid rain and salt laden water.

Regards Grumbles

[Bushmiller]

Grumbles

I know where you are coming from with the heat. Think 6m oven! However a lot of the heat is dictated by the colour of the container. I have an uninsulated blue container and two uninsulated cream coloured containers. On a hot day the cream containers are cooler with their doors shut than the blue with the doors open.

Still the light coloured containers are too warm for comfort (30+ deg probably) on the hot days.

The Studio is cream and insulated all through. It does have a simple (window style) air con for the hot days, but is small at 1.5HP. It easily cools the space. Further mods planned are to have hoods over the windows and a dummy skillion roof over the container. However, these have not happened yet. Too much else to do for the moment.

Oh, my workshed is a three sided affair and the temp regularly reached 38deg this summer. It was getting hotter than that, but last year in desperation I painted the roof cream to reduce the heat. My level of heat tolerance is declining, but that helped a lot.

Regards
Paul

[Zeeber]

Thanks for all the feedback, suggestions and information. It seems from all that was said that it would not be a good idea – I (firstly) incorrectly assumed that the containers are strong (they are stacked by the 10’s) throughout, not knowing that the only strong parts are the corners. The swimming pool issue is not really important because it is an elevated site, high above ground water, but I guess the drainage and rainwater etc would cause major issues with rust. All the other points are valid: soil would have to be carted away, the containers would have to be delivered (even if I could get them for free), and lastly, but probably most significantly, is the council approval: anything out of the ordinary won’t happen easy. So I thank you all – not going down that road after what I’ve read here today!
It would probably be better to elevate the house on steel girders (or whatever they’re called when they’re vertical) and enclose the bottom to get the wine cellar and storage space. Based on a solid concrete foundation with steel reinforcement – that should do the job, I would think.

[Simplicity]

Have a look at

Mega anchor

They might have what you need
No affiliation seen them used once only on a property with a steep incline

Melbourne based to I think

Matt

[Sam]

The building surveyor that issues you a building permit would require a registered structural engineer to provide computations and drawings. No engineer I know would go near the idea.

Unless you've got money to burn look around at other houses gettng built and see how they're done. Concrete in ground and timber framing will be common. Theres alot of whizz bang products out there but be very very careful.

Vertical steel girders are called stumps or columns

[Twisted Tenon]

They have their uses though. This (http://www.smh.com.au/national/family-survived-black-saturday-in-bunker-20090527-bnnh.html)one was buried and used as a fire bunker.

TT

[KBs PensNmore]

Hi Zeeber
A friend of mine has done something similar to what you want to do. He used a 20' container, brushed on several coats of bitumen after cleaning off any rusty surfaces, and underneath, then buried it close to his swimming pool, with sand around the sides so that no chance or rubble scratching the bitumen causing it to rust. He put a trapdoor in the top to be able to drop a ladder down there as a temporary measure. A submersible pump was fitted to a well that was made from galv steel painted with bitumen on the outside as a preventative. He is doing a sunroom extension over the top of it , not a full house though.
Handy having a mate that has access to a mini excavator, bobcat and tipper to get rid of the soil.
Kryn

[Bushmiller]

Kryn

That's interesting. How has he coped with the problem of pressure on the walls and negativity from the council? Also how did he put the bitumen on the underside? Did he have it up in the air on supports?

Regards
Paul

[ian]

I’ve been looking on the internet for information but unfortunately when you search for “using a shipping container for a foundation” it shows you hundreds of websites on how to build a foundation FOR a shipping container home, not using it as the foundation… So, can anyone please comment on any of the following (any ideas, rules, regulations that you know about, someone who has done it, obstacles you can envisage – literally anything you can think of):

I want to build a kit home – it is the steel frame variety. When they sell it to you, they don’t include the foundations – that is up to you. The options so far have been a concrete foundation, or piers and piles (either steel or wood).

My idea is to buy two 40ft shipping containers, then bury them on the site, put steel beams across the top, the same as you would if you had a conventional foundation, and then put the house on top. The steel beams would be bolted to the shipping containers. I’m not sure at this point, but it could also be a good idea to cut a hole in the top, put a small staircase in and use it as a wine cellar or similar type storage.

Any reasons why this wouldn’t work? Structural strength of the containers? Rust issues if they’re buried? And if so, could you wrap them in damp seal? Ground water, council approval, or any other things I should be considering?I'm sorry to be so blunt, but

do you have rocks in your head or money to burn?

What you want to do is feasible but heinously expensive.

Your containers would need properly engineered foundations, water proofing, a ground water extraction system to stop the containers floating -- being elevated doesn't excuse you from the flotation problem -- properly engineered beams (or columns and beams) to support the house slab, corrosion protection, ventilation, the list goes on.
I know of no engineer who would touch the idea with anything less than a brand new container, and even then they would most probably specify a custom built one.
and I haven't mentioned the engineer's fee which is likely to be in the mid to high 5 figures. Unlike most other professionals, engineers remain liable for their design work for many years after they die and have to buy insurance to cover them.

If a slab on ground is not a viable option for your site, look at bored concrete piles.

If you want to add a cellar, elevate the slab, or extend the piles above grade to create a space under the house, like what was done with Queenslanders.

[KBs PensNmore]

Kryn

That's interesting. How has he coped with the problem of pressure on the walls and negativity from the council? Also how did he put the bitumen on the underside? Did he have it up in the air on supports?

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul,
As far as I know, he didn't do anything to it, as the sides were about 75mm deep and about 200 mm wide, so he probably figured that would be more than strong enough.
Council???? :rolleyes: He said "What they don't know, won't hurt them"
To get to the underside, he just tipped it on it's side, when you've a mate with access to earthmoving gear, it's easy.
Kryn

[chris0375]

Hi Paul,
As far as I know, he didn't do anything to it, as the sides were about 75mm deep and about 200 mm wide, so he probably figured that would be more than strong enough.


What are those dimensions of?

Containers are not strong at all. It hasn't crushed yet but there are plenty that do.

[BobL]

The following is a demonstration of problems with containers when even small holes are cut into them. I purchased a used 20ft container that I wanted to use as a shed to store timber in and knowing how hot they can get decided to cut two 300mm diameter holes in the topp to add two whirlybird fans and then cut 4 150 x 300 mm holes on the sides down near the floor. The holes in the top were along the length wise midline spaced ~1/3rd apart.

When I climbed up onto the top to cut the holes the container sounded and felt firm but after I cut the holes the container top did not feel as solid and was a lot more springy than it did before. The area around the holes also bowed inwards by about 50mm meaning that a lot of rainwater pooled around the whirlybirds and Even though I had bent the lips of the holes upwards about 25 m rainwater came into the container and it started to rust around where the water pooled.

After several floods eventually I jacked the area up around each hole with two Acro props so that the bow popped out the other way and then welded a full container width length of 50 x 50 x 5 mm angle in place inside up against the roof with a couple of spacers either side of the holes to maintain the upwards bow.

[Bushmiller]

Bob

I saw the same type of problem when converting the studio. I was cutting out very large areas for three windows down on of the long sides. Despite the steel being quite thick ( can't quite remember off the top of my head but around 2mm) the sides popped out of shape and flopped about. This was quite easily rectified when I framed up the openings for the windows and doors with timber and introduced studs and plates.They all improved rigidity. I also lined the studio with VJ sheeting. More rigidity.

I would be interested to hear Simplicity's experience on this aspect.

I think it is readily resolved as shipping containers are used commonly now for offices, homes and other accommodation. However, they are not pressure vessels! The corner uprights are massive and built to withstand considerable compressive loads.

The rest of the container is for containment :rolleyes: , weather proofing and vermin proofing all of which they do very well.

Regards
Paul

[Simplicity]

Container roofs are designed with a slight curvature to them
So they shed water

[KBs PensNmore]

Hi Chris,
Those measurements are of the Z section of the sides, being 75mm high and 200 mm long.

[ian]

Hi Paul

I think people need to be very careful extending this observation
I was cutting out very large areas for three windows down on of the long sides. Despite the steel being quite thick ( can't quite remember off the top of my head but around 2mm) the sides popped out of shape and flopped about.

I think it is readily resolved as shipping containers are used commonly now for offices, homes and other accommodation. However, they are not pressure vessels! The corner uprights are massive and built to withstand considerable compressive loads.to used shipping containers.

A business building transportable offices and accommodation into the form of a shipping container -- 20 or 40ft long, 8ft wide, 8'6" high, with reinforced corners -- will most likely be making custom sides containing the reinforcing necessary to prevent teh walls flopping about.



As an aside, 2mm steel is quite thin and floppy
even 20mm plate "flops" a bit when the sheets are 12m long

[Bushmiller]

Ian

I take your point about my experience being from second hand containers. In fact I should point out that the type of containers that are commonly on the market for land use are normally of a quality that will not pass certification for shipping any more.

I have no knowledge one way or the other of custom made sides for housing.

The sides of the container gain their rigidity because of the profile which is deep. My point about the thickness of the steel is that it is considerably thicker than roofing steel for example (about four time thicker). The only reason roofing iron is strong enough to span a distance is because of the profile.

Car bodies have dips and folds in them for the same reason. Styling is actually a secondary consideration.

I don't know if you have ever noticed but the profile of the back wall of a shipping container is different to the sides. It appears to be a more rigid section.

Regards
Paul

[OldGrain]

https://www.facebook.com/thewoodworkingtips/photos/pcb.829134960553475/829131500553821/?type=3&theater

A little bit different.

[Bushmiller]

OG

Nice. Earth bermed too. very adventurous.

Regards
Paul