Australian Red Cedar - what finish for a vanity?

[HamishM]

Cheers all. I'm a long time reader, first time poster to these fantastic forums.

I've got a couple of new Australian Red Cedar slabs that will be used as benchtops on vanities. Yes - a soft timber to be using in a bathroom, but a compromise I'm prepared for considering the beauty of ARC.

The dilemma is how to finish it. My wife and I don't want a glossy finish, but obviously it needs to be highly water resistant if not water proof.

Around the web and talking to a couple of sales people I've seen hints at hard shellac, tung oil, polyeurethane, floor sealer, combinations of different products and so on, but nothing specific fits my bill. What suggestions are there here for something that will highlight the magic of ARC without being overly glossy, but protects it from the harshness of a bathroom?

Hamish

[Luke Maddux]

It's a tough one...

Oil finishes aren't great for water resistance. If you wanted to improve its chances you could build up several coats, but, at that point, you're going to be building its gloss.

Shellac tends to be glossy and, from what I understand, isn't the best with water and, especially, any kind of solvent, i.e. bathroom sink products. This one is probably the best bet for bringing out the "magic" of the wood, but maybe the worst for protecting it.

I think you're possibly looking at some kind of floor finish from Bunnings. Something that is deliberately "satin" or "matte" but is designed to prevent damage from spills.

Sorry to be of little or no help... You're fighting a tough battle, particularly since it's Red Cedar. You're going to REALLY need the finish to keep virtually all moisture out.

Is the wood a deep, dark maroon color? If so, that's a good thing, as it probably means the tree was very old and grew very slow. This would result in the wood being more dense and, as a result, less porous. The lighter the color, the "fuzzier" it tends to be, and it'll hold more water in this case.

Again, sorry for just posting a bunch of obvious stuff...

Best of luck,
Luke

[LGS]

Hi,
While I agree with Luke that Shellac is probably the best match for red Cedar, it may not be suitable for the site you're working with. There's a company Watco I think that puts out a product called "Butcher Block" something. You can get it at Masters. Isn't high gloss. That may work for you.
Alternatively, you could use something like Organoil Hard Burnishing Oil. This will give a satin finish which will also provide protection from heat and more to the point liquid spills. You can see the method here (http://www.sanding.damnfinefurniture.com) and read about and see it's qualities here (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f9/cabots-danish-oil-formula-change-166948).

Regards

Rob

[ian]

I'm thinking it will be a two stage finish.

oil or shellac to make the grain "pop" then maybe a clear polyurethane to protect the surface from water.

unfortunately, a vanity will likely get wet every time someone uses it. You may need to compromise on the dislike of gloss, but I think there are ways of dulling a gloss finish.

[q9]

Here's an answer I prepared earlier...

Estapol 7008, rub down with 1200/2000 to knock the shine off but still give it a silky smooth finish. Water resistant, and tough.

[HamishM]

Thanks fellas,
Yep standard shellac alone'd be no good as it and moisture are a bad mix, but I've picked up the idea that Hard Shellac might be more moisture resistant due to additives in it, though I need to be convinced. Bathroom cleaning agents are a consideration I hadn't thought of too, so that may well rule out any shellac. The colour is mostly dark, but not as dark as I know it can get. Judging by the growth rings I'd guess the tree was fairly old, but rapidly growing at times - dense or porous in different places across the slabs.

I'll look into your suggestions Rob, could be the goods.

Oil or shellac topped with polyurethane - I can see the appeal in this approach. Is it tried and tested - would the polyurethane have an effect on the shellac - either chemical, or visual (in terms of distorting the "deep" sheen shellac brings out)?

Yes, I'd wondered if oil (or something else of a glossy nature) is used in multiple layers, whether rubbing it back after each coat with 0000 steel wool or very fine grit sandpaper would reduce the gloss build-up. So this could be an option?

7008 would be the go if my wife was prepared to use it - we used it (7 coats) on the bathroom floor in the previous house. Worked a treat, but my wife hated the odour and was adamant that it wouldn't be used on the floor or the vanities in the new house.

[q9]

I finished mine in the shed after planing and fit was checked. No odour. But yes, quite stinky if you need to do it in situ.

[ian]

Hi Hamish

I would need strong evidence before I accepted that any oil based finish would be suitable in a bathroom.

bathrooms tend to be cleaned with fairly strong detergents and/or abrasive products which by their very nature are designed to latch onto oils and strip them away.

I can't see an alternative to a hard cross-linked (or two pac) impervious finish

[AngelaPetruzzi]

Each and every product has their own maintenance routines. There are synthetic oils (or modified) or natural. Whilst Livos do have a natural oil specifically for bathrooms, and it has been used successfully, one would need to follow up with the correct cleaners. I would not recommend here though as it is a glossier finish.

Two pac would probably be the most bomb roof in this situation however don't leave water lying on the surface too long. Once there is a break in the coating, water will go underneath and turn the surface black.. only sanding will remove. With most synthetic coatings one can generally specify the sheen level.

[HamishM]

Coincidently I chanced upon the Livos website a couple of days ago - impressed with the uncomplicated upfront honesty on it. Equally coincidently, today a fellow at work said he used Linn bathroom oil on his bathroom vanity, and finished it off with Gilly Stephenson wax. Apparently he doesn't use cleaning agents as he regularly wipes it down (!) - which Livos cleaner would be most appropriate? What's your take on wax over the top of the oil? (And for that matter, polyurethane over the oil?) By the sound of it, the more layers of oil applied the higher the gloss level - what is the gloss level after your suggested 3 coats - I'm imagining it wouldn't be like a couple of coats of a gloss polyurethane? Is it sensible/possible to cut back between coats of oil to remove a bit of gloss? Also stunned that you've got a supplier in little wee Cooloongolook, a short trip down the road for me.

[AngelaPetruzzi]

Nice to hear your thoughts HamishM. What a small world. Timber does not like much water and certainly not the chemicals of cleaning agents so if your work mate does not clean with chemicals, all the better.

We would recommend the Trena PH neutral cleaner as it is mild and effective and does not break down the oil/wax/resin coating. But, after 4-6 weeks have elapsed. This would have ensured that the waxes and resins have hardened. (there are no synthetic hardening agents).
We come from a floor sanding background and whilst we may recommend something, it may not be suitable to a client. It will also depend on the project itself. In my opinion, I would not recommend any additional waxes as the more "layers" there are the more the wear and tear will be visible...again this will be dependant on the project and maintenance regime.

The Linn is very glossy. Not necessarily to my liking but due to the ingredients, it is more resistant to items found in bathrooms etc. If you don't like the high gloss and want to dull it a bit, try hitting the surface with a maroon pad, this will remove the sheen..just gently though as you do not want to remove the oil that you put on.
It is hard to talk gloss levels as what you may think is satin for example, I may think it gloss..or matt.

[milligania]

This is a somewhat belated response so my apologies. I hope it may still be useful. I made a vanity unit from old red cedar (NSW north coast origin) some 15 years ago. I sealed with a couple of marine products made by International (Akso Nobel) which are available from boat equipment stores. Both are 2 pack epoxy so you need to use with care and in a well ventilated area. First application was Everdure Primer which goes on like water and is absorbed by the cedar. This hardens and "densifies" the timber surface. A good sand then several coats of Perfection Gloss polyurethane (with light sands between coats) has given a high gloss finish which I usually do not like for cedar but doesn't look out of place in the bathroom with tiles etc. More importantly it is very hard wearing and after 15 years of daily use the surface shows only minor denting but no cracks and no loss of integrity. No water ingress whatsoever. To avoid gunk growing at the junction of the cedar with the wall tiles I incorporated a raised cedar edge into the unit (before sealing). This has worked well as the grout between the wood and the tiles is now raised out of the area that gets wet.

[HamishM]

Thanks Milligania,
no not too late, as this project got put on the back burner while others got promoted. Yes, I'm planning a splash-back also for the same reason, but also it looks nicer! I suspect 2 packs are a no-goer as my wife has a strong aversion to them after doing the floor in our previous house with 7008, as great as it was.

I am concerned though that the cedar is going to ding relatively easily so I'm interested in the hardener approach - does hardener influence the appearance of the timber in any way?

Also, there's a water affected area visible where there's an "offshoot" to a branch that presumably had a rotten centre. There's a bit of discolouring, ie it "looks" a little like rotten timber, though it is solid and I'm confident it isn't rot. However I'm worried that this might still appear like a rotten or water stained area once finished - is this likely? The flip side of the slab isn't affected, however it has a couple of splits in this branch offshoot area - one with the grain and one across it. They don't seem too significant - perhaps 0.5mm in width, one about 30mm, the other about 80mm in length. They don't go right through the 30mm slab and I'm imagining that they'll fill with the coating I end up going with - any thoughts?

Another concern with the first side is that there's a bit of "delaminating" at the centre of the growth rings - similar to the centre leaves coming out of a spring onion sliced along its length. There's not a lot of it, but I feel that if I try to sand it out more, it will just keep exposing the problem deeper down.

So I'm thinking the flip side is a better bet. Though, there's a resin hole on the flip side, not significant - a "triangle" shaped hole on the surface about 5 - 7mm along each side and about 4 mm deep. My preference is to fill it with a clear resin or some such that wont turn opague or yellow, is this feasible? The clear coating that I end up using? I'd prefer not to fill it with woodfiller, but can do if necessary by mixing glue with sawdust/fibres I've kept. I did this on an ARC chest of drawers to good effect, however as it was many years ago I've forgotten the glue I used - as I recall I had to be carefull not to darken the mix by using the wrong glue - PVA rather than PVC I'm thinking?

Thanks
Hamish