Spraying shellac using Wagner spray guns

[barri]

I started another thread below using a cheap aerosol alternative called Preval but got no replies so I'll have another crack.

I make boxes and recently I've used an aerosol can of spray shellac to finish them ..... Rust-Oleum Zinsser 408 Bulls Eye Clear Shellac Spray - Shellac For Furniture - Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Rust-Oleum-Zinsser-408-Bulls-Shellac/dp/B0009X8HWG) and the results have been great with minimal effort. I got the idea from this youtube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm8xIf41jEE The finishing is at the end of the video.

The problem is they're hard to get and I have to order them on line. Also, they're about $30 delivered making them expensive in the long run. I've bought and used shellac flakes for less than that of which you can make over a liter. So what I'm looking for is a cheaper spraying system without going down the compressor path. There are so many mixed reviews on the Wagner airless systems. People either love them or hate them.

So are these a viable alternative? If so which one? Are they reliable? Easy to clean? Easy to get accessories? On Wagner's Australia site they have a large number of models ranging from below $100 to many hundreds. A little confusing. The fine spray models seem to suit what I'm after but I'm not sure. I guess what I'm really after is hearing from someone who mixes their own shellac and uses a Wagner system successfully, even people who use them successfully for spraying polyurethane could chime in here.

[barri]

A follow up. I rang Wagner and they didn't recommend any of their products for spraying shellac. How's that for honesty! They said what they have isn't fine enough. So going down the compressor path might be the go. I searched for a small cheap one, I'm only going to use it for spraying shellac and polyurethanes, and got completely confused.

Can anyone help?

[Cliff Rogers]

I'm watching with interest.

[ian]

... going down the compressor path might be the go. I searched for a small cheap one, I'm only going to use it for spraying shellac and polyurethanes, and got completely confused.

Can anyone help?as I understand it, spraying a finish or paint is about
clean dry air
at the right pressure
delivered in an appropriate volume
matched with
the right sort of gun for the finish
with the right sort of tip
then you need to get both the viscosity and technique right

a small and cheap compressor may not deliver the volume you need at the pressure required.
years ago when small and cheap compressors first started appearing I asked about getting one for spraying finishes. The answer then was that the tank of a small compressor was too small to deliver enough air to do any useful spraying.


as for the other aspects, I too will sit back and watch.

[Glenn.Visca]

I too have just been down the spraying shellac path, on a reasonably sizeable job (refer http://www.woodworkforums.com/f187/study-wip-182611-post1900889#post1900889 and later posts in the thread).

Final picture here: http://www.woodworkforums.com/f187/study-wip-182611-post1906659#post1906659

To start with, Shellac isn't particularly fussy about the size or capability of the gun being used. Lets be honest, it can be laid on with a brush with pretty good results.

I went and purchased a "reasonable quality" gravity gun from my local auto paint shop. Was around $150 from memory. It has a 2mm tip, which to be honest, could be a little big I think. I pretty much had it screwed 80% closed I reckon. About a 600ml cup. I thought about HVLP and all the other good stuff, but thought I might just put a toe in the water first.

I already had a Scorpion B2800B belt drive compressor ... probably a 50lt tank ... trade quality unit as I understand it.

I went and purchased a line regulator that is attached directly to the gun so I could regulate pressure at the gun, rather than at the compressor. I am pretty sure I had the compressor set at about 90PSI, and the gun set to about 10PSI.

What I learned (which is not to say I am any kind of expert !!!) :

1. You need to retard the drying time - a wise person recommended around 6% n-butenol. A local scientific / medical supply place should be able to sort you out. This will let the shellac "flow out" better once its applied. Just as background, I purchased uBeauts hardened shellac mixture, and cut that 50/50 with pure alcohol, then added around 6% butenol.

2. Its easier to spray on a horizontal surface if possible.

3. One or two dust coats on first - just to lay down a bit of a base.

4. With that done - you can put the shellac on pretty thick - let it flow - and you will very quickly fill the grain. At one stage, I had the mix running that thick, the air pressure was creating "waves" in the surface. But - once I stopped spraying, the shellac flowed out and it created a pretty good surface. Honestly, that "piece" was probably sprayed "too wet" ... but what I am trying to say is ... you will go nuts trying to build coat on coat on coat.

5. Once you have a solid / grain filled base (depending on what type of surface you are trying to create), you can cut back with P600 wet and dry on a cork block, using a little bit of soapy water. You will notice dull sections, which are now dead flat, and glossy "pits" - which are the low spots. Apply more shellac and repeat the process as often as you want (or not .. as the case may be).

6. My final activity (having let it all dry), was to cut back with P1200 wet and dry - and then polish with EEE Ultrashine. Finish was sensational.

Now - back the compressor conversation. I had the luxury of a pretty big tank - so had no problems whatsoever. If you are spraying large pieces (table tops etc) - then I expect a big tank is required to keep consistent pressure to the gun.

But - for smaller pieces - I reckon you could get by on a cheap and cheerful unit from autobarn etc. You will know when the tank is running low - because the compressor will kick in. At this point, stop spraying until the pressure is back up ... then start again. I would also suggest that with a small compressor tank, release the air in the gun (ie. just spray air) until the compressor starts. Then start spraying liquid on you job - that way you know you have started with a full tank.

I hope that helps in some way ...

[barri]

A great post Glenn

I mainly make small boxes, as a hobby and the compressor you described seems overkill in my case. You mentioned getting by on a cheap unit. Supercheap auto have the biggest range but I'm still confused as to what constitutes a basic unit that will do the job.

[Chief Tiff]

I take it you are referring to an electric airless sprayer? I have one of the lower spec'd Wagners and have used it to spray thinned down varnishes and oils with no problem. You will also need to buy a flexible extension so you can spray in different directions because unlike a normal syphon type spray spray gun you have to hold the Wagner pretty much horizontally all the time; the flexible extension allows you to point the nozzle where you want.

Downside? Rather messy as it is pretty much all-or-nothing, and fornicatingly LOUD!!! You WILL be needing earmuffs and deaf neighbours.

What hasn't been mentioned by those who prefer to spray with air, is the moisture and oil carry over which will destroy your finish. You must use a mist eliminator/water trap directly after the tank, and a dedicated air hose that is only ever used with spray guns.

Lastly; shellac, nitrocellulose or epoxy based paints and varnishes are really, really flammable when sprayed as an atomised mist. From a spray can it's a fairly small "cloud" and the warnings on the can is a bit of a hint but using a Wagner or a spray gun is best done either outdoors or in a sheltered space like a garage where you tend not to recognise the risk of rapid eyebrow loss. Static electricity from synthetic fibre clothing is enough to make you deeply regret ever wearing those paisley patterned nylon jocks...

[ian]

A great post Glenn

I mainly make small boxes, as a hobby and the compressor you described seems overkill in my case. You mentioned getting by on a cheap unit. Supercheap auto have the biggest range but I'm still confused as to what constitutes a basic unit that will do the job.as I understand spraying, after clean dry air and the right gun for the finish, what you need most is enough air (measured in volume) for the task.

The volume of air required required is driven by the size of the pieces you are spraying and how long it takes to complete one coat.
Stopping and starting because there's not enough air is the last thing you want to have to manage.

justifying inadequate equipment on the basis that it's only a hobby, is, IMO, a false premise. It's like saying "I don't need to keep my chisels sharp, 'cause I'm only a hobbyist."

Hopefully, someone will jump in and advise how much air (per minute) is needed to spray each sort of finish.


Also, don't forget your and (and your family and neighbour's) safety.
Most of what I've read about spraying volatile finishes require the use of some sort of booth vented to the outside through an explosion rated exhaust fan.

[Ubernoob]

If you can't afford a big compressor you can find small ones with dud motors quite easily. All you have to do is use the dud as another tank for a more steady airflow. A small touch up gun should be enough for what most people do.
I need to modify some lines on my compressor as they are too restrictive to get decent pressure at the gun.

[barri]

I take it you are referring to an electric airless sprayer? I have one of the lower spec'd Wagners and have used it to spray thinned down varnishes and oils with no problem. You will also need to buy a flexible extension so you can spray in different directions because unlike a normal syphon type spray spray gun you have to hold the Wagner pretty much horizontally all the time; the flexible extension allows you to point the nozzle where you want.


Yes I think I'm referring to airless electric although Wagner has many models. Some mention turbine, some mention HPLV. It is confusing. I thought they were all airless electric. Its interesting that a "knowledgeable" person from Wagner doesn't recommend any model and yet you have successfully used one. Which model do you have? Link? I'm fairly keen on not going down the compressor path if possible. Also, I'm assuming Wagner sell flexible extensions.

Was that Wagner easy to clean and reuse and is thinning needed for these airless sprayers?

[barri]

It's like saying "I don't need to keep my chisels sharp, 'cause I'm only a hobbyist."


My analogy would be more of the line "As a hobbyist I don't need a full blown high HP cabinet saw as a hybrid will do the job". And it does perfectly.

Thanks for the advice on safety. I didn't realize that. Now you're scaring me

[Sam]

The belt driven supercheap compressors go on sale every few weeks, like 200-400 off the price.

[ian]

you might find the information here DeVilbiss, Anest Iwata, Asturo AOM, Sharpe, Astro Pneumatic, Binks - Spray Guns & More (http://www.spraygunworld.com/Information2/CFM.htm) useful

[TongueTied]

A compressor is actually a very useful thing to have in your shop and I would suggest getting one with a large tank ~about 50L. The larger the tank, the less frequently the compressor motor will turn on and the more powerful the motor, the faster it will fill the tank. In the trade-off between tank size and motor power, I'd suggest the larger tank size takes priority. Once you have the compressor, you will find it is very useful for lots of things other than just spraying. An air drill will give you the cleanest holes you could imagine in sheet metal and most brad and nail guns run off air. I also have a Schrader valve adapter which makes inflating car and bike tires a snap.

[Chief Tiff]

The Wagner electric model I have uses a small recipricating piston to suck up and spray; the piston going back and forth 50 times a second makes a bit of a racket; hence the comment about earmuffs. I have no idea about a "turbine" model, but HVLP work by pressurising the paint and forcing it through the nozzle; the same principle as a spray can. Traditional spray guns work by releasing a jet of air, the paint is sucked out of the reservoir by the venturi principle.

Whatever system you pick will have a specific range of viscosities that will work; go outside of these and the finish will look rubbish. My Wagner will spray oils and shellac quite comfortably; it's a W140P model.

[barri]

Thanks ChiefTiff, the W140P is only $98 at Bunnings. You also mentioned a flexible extension. Are these readily available? Any other accessories needed to spray shellac and varnishes? Shellac is fast drying ie recoat within an hour. Do you have to clean it between coats or can that be done at the end of the day without the shellac drying out on the nozzles etc.?

Also does the shellac or varnish have to be thinned a lot to deliver the right viscosity.

[Chief Tiff]

When I bought mine the flexible extensions were available on the shelf at the same store but I can't say if that's the same now.
No further bits are needed for varnishes etc.
You'll find that you can recoat shellac after about 20 minutes tops; a sprayed coating is much thinner than a brushed one. I clean out the sprayer after every job.
I don't know what brand of shellac or varnish you are going to use so I can't comment on the viscosity, however I don't recall needing to thin down anything much. There are viscosity cups in the kit so it only takes a few seconds to work out.

[barri]

Thanks again for your reply.

I rang Wagner again and mentioned your comments and then they spoke on other models including the fine sprayers as suitable for varnishes etc. This has become more confusing considering one of their "experts" told me that no model was suitable. I really don't want to go down the compressor path. I assume when you said that you clean the sprayer after every job you didn't mean after every spray.

I might go and visit them at their Melbourne office

[Chief Tiff]

Any "expert" you talk to will be an expert in sales, not application.

They will try to persuade you to buy what they consider to be the best product for your application, and they'll probably be right. The best tool for the job may not be the best tool for you however. At this time all you want is a tool that will spray shellac on some boxes; you can do this with a cheaper W140 and another $25 bucks for the flex extension. Build yourself a stand at about waist height with a revolving top with some spikes that the item can sit on and with an hour or two of practice you'll be producing very good spray finishes. The downside is that this model sprayer works best when it's pumping out lots of spray so you'll use more than you expect, but then again shellac isn't particularly expensive. With this model you will learn how to control using only your spraying technique as it more of an "all or nothing" tool, same as a spray can but with a bigger cloud.

If you go for one of their "turbine" models you'll find that it will give you the ability to adjust and control the spray pattern and will possibly work at better angles than the W140 meaning you won't need to buy the flexible extension. More than likely too it will be considerably more economical on the shellac. And will cost more. Will it give you a better finish? As a beginner... no. In a year or so if you move away from boxes and start spraying everything in your house then the ability to adjust your spray pattern to suite the application will give better results; but if you start to go down that route, well, then it's decent compressor and spray gun territory. And you can plug a nail gun into the compressor!

For me the cheaper model suits my needs. I've sprayed stain type varnish on a bookcase with good results and oil based varnishes on outdoor furniture along with straight oils. This afternoon I'm going to recoat my deck with "Interwood Ultra" decking preservative, this thread has given me the nudge to use the spray gun rather than a brush; providing that the wind buggers off!

[barri]

Great advice again, Chief. I actually have setup a small table on castors which is easy to rotate with the boxes resting on painters pyramids. Similar to what you've advised. As I said I've been getting good results with a spray can. Seven thin coats then rub back with steel wool and buff with wax and they look great. Given that, I might try the Preval system first ( https://www.plastidip.net.au/preval-spray-systems ) another alternative and for only about $20 they're worth a go with little to lose. Autobarn stock them. They look like they might give similar results. I tried starting a thread about this but got no replies. I assume very few people use them. If they end up not giving a decent result or too difficult to clean and I have to replace the unit too often then I'm no better off than continuing with my aerosol method. Then I'll have a go at the Wagners. I'll still visit their office this week and talk to the "expert" advisers and see what they say. I'll report back as soon as I can.

Let us know how your Wagner gun gets on with your deck!

[Superbunny]

I've used the Arlic system that used to be sold by Carba-tec and it works great for shellac and you can buy different size needles to spray different types of finish. They are not cheap but it dose a good job, it's like a mini combined spraying system.

SB

[barri]

A follow on.
I visited the Wagner office in Melbourne and had a good chat with one of the "knowledgeable" reps and he advised for varnish and shellac, one of the fine spray systems with an accessory which replaces the container with a finer nozzle called "brilliant". I might eventually go down that path but I did try the Preval system and found it very good. See link above. It sprays a thin coat and it can have runs if you're not careful but for under $20 (it was on special at Autobarn) it delivered what I was after. It was easy to clean but certainly didn't spray as evenly as an aerosol can. I used some wipe on Poly which didn't need thinning did a few coats and I was generally pleased that such a cheap product could deliver a good result.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

On Wagner's Australia site they have a large number of models ranging from below $100 to many hundreds. A little confusing. The fine spray models seem to suit what I'm after but I'm not sure. I guess what I'm really after is hearing from someone who mixes their own shellac and uses a Wagner system successfully, even people who use them successfully for spraying polyurethane could chime in here.

I regularly use a Wagner airless 213 (HVLP) at work for priming & finishing Although we're a joinery and specialise primarily in doors, windows & architectural fittings I've also built the odd furniture, jewellery box and similar sundry items.

As a result I've poured damned near everything & anything through the wagner... shellac, jam, PolyU & render-roc (I kid you not!) to name just a few.

The main unit is pretty much bullet-proof, although we've gone through a couple of guns in the last couple of years. They are mainly plastic, after all, and after a few thou hours they start to 'dribble' around the trigger pivot. :shrug: Parts for the guns themselves can be hard to source, but a whole new gun is relatively cheap.

Enough so that we have a seperate gun for each nozzle size rather than bothering swapping the needles & nozzles around and it is nice to have a separate gun for each type of paint so one never has to bother about "did I remove all the turps from the gun after the last clean-up before loading this nice, glossy white water-based paint..." :B

With Shellac I've noticed a tendency to give a pebbled finish - probably just operator error - but a light rub between coats soon sorts that out.

I want one for my home workshop. Right after the chisel morticer, drum sander, 3-head spindle moulder and... I'd better shut up now. :doh:

[barri]

I just noticed the price of the 213 is nearly $700. For that price I might as well go down the traditional compressor and gun path. I guess you get what you pay for

[ian]

I regularly use a Wagner airless 213 (HVLP) at work for priming & finishing
I want one for my home workshop. Right after the chisel morticer, drum sander, 3-head spindle moulder and...
I too suffer from the same syndrome ...

[ian]

I just noticed the price of the 213 is nearly $700. For that price I might as well go down the traditional compressor and gun path. I guess you get what you pay for
apples and oranges

one is HVLP, the other LVHP

[Arron]

This is a subject I take a look at every year or so in the hope of simplifying spray painting. I never seem to get beyond compressor and HVLP or LVLP conversion guns.

The problem with spraying boxes is that people look at them very closely so what is suitable for furniture is probably not OK for boxes. Also, everyones idea of a 'dead smooth finish' is different.

On the Wagner side, I own a W140P, a Wallperfect W565, a Finesprayer W560, a 450SE and at least one other (I cant remember the model). None of these would I trust anywhere near a quality handmade item. I was given most of these by a friend who was emigrating.

I haven't tried the 213, or anything more expensive then it, so I cant comment on these.

My own research into dedicated HVLP spraying units never gets far as I cant try-before-you-buy and I'm not going to outlay $600+ unless I'm sure it'll meet my needs, because I'm basically pretty sceptical about them.

So I go the compressor and gun route.

In a previous post I dealt with the issue of what size compressor you really need for spraying small items and for the occasional, unhurried use on larger items. http://www.woodworkforums.com/f9/compressor-size-spray-painting-186151?highlight=compressor . Don't forget to read post number 3 where there are some metrics especially relevant to spraying small items with low-end gear.

I now have 3 compressors and 7 guns which I use for spraying, but I guess if I had to start again with a unit for spaying small items like boxes I would go with the Sydney tools direct drive 2.5 hp compressor which cost me a miserly $246, the wonderful little Star SLV 400F LVLP gun ($350 ish), a cheapo 2.0mm gun for sealers (say $50). An in-line water trap and probably an in-line regulator (say $20 each). Also, a thick air hose, not the curly stuff.

I have no fear of buying a cheap compressor because I regard them as a commodity, use them hard, throw them out when they start to fail. The cost is tiny when worked out on a per-year basis, and doesn't favour the expensive ones.

cheers
Arron

[P.W.H.]

Have you thought about an airbrush with a compressed air dive bottle? 'S what my first wife used to have ...

I own a Wagner (the rapid piston type) and I rarely got a really good result with it if I went to anything thinner than water based latex paint,
and spraying it on to vertical walls. Even spraying some anti-rust xylene based rust-inhibiting primer on laps of a new roof in situ was a complete
failure. Ended up using a brush for that.
For my furniture I ended up with getting a small gravity fed spray gun and using the compressor that I already had in my workshop anyway. Much, much better with
lacquer and enamel. I'm fairly sure that would go for shellac in white meths solution as well.

[barri]

Another follow on ..

The Preval system is amazing for its price. I tried it on a scrap piece then on a finished prototype box

I prepared my timber as normal. Sand through the grits fro 120 to 800, vacuum between each grit and finished with a rub from a tack cloth. Filled the jar with my 1 lb cut of my own mixed shellac, 9 coats with sanding after the 4th and 7th and last with 1000 grit and then wax and buff. The result was surprisingly really good and equally as good as from before. I would defy previous customers to spot the difference. The unit was easy to clean and reusable. For the amount I do this is the most efficient and effective way to go. For $19 there isn't at lot to loose.

I really do appreciate and understand the advice from many forumites wanting me to buy a compressor and the guns and accessories is way overkill for my hobby and was a last resort. As stated in my original post, woodworkers have a love hate relationship with Wagner guns. There are those that are very comfortable with using them for shellac and it is those that still keep my interest.

The Preval system was a pleasant surprise and I will persevere.