CBUS Home Automation

[silentC]

I received some info from Clipsal last night on CBUS and their home networking products. Just wondering if anyone has experience with this stuff they would like to share? They say it's 'inexpensive' but is that inexpensive to me or inexpensive to someone who would pay $10,000 for a bathtub?

I like the idea of the networking feature - you can stick all your VCRs and satellite receivers on the network and access them from any TV in the house. They have a remote IR receiver so you can use the remote control from any TV too. You can have a camera on the front door and view it from any TV in the house. Stuff like that. Is it worth the trouble and the cost?

[craigb]

Could you at least run the wiring?

That way you've got it there if you win the lottery or something at a later date and can afford to get the full box and dice.

[silentC]

Yeah that was what I was wondering. Now's the time to do it.

[echnidna]

Made just for the dark siders

[bitingmidge]

No. (but I'd do it again :rolleyes: )

Beware: this is my second-last login for a month so it'll be a long post~!

It might even be two posts!

I deal a lot in high-end houses/apartments, and have seen installations ranging from $2,000 to nearly $200,000.

One of my clients has a very valuable beach house which he visits maybe twice a year, he has the full remote facility, to the extent that he can dial in, open the garage door, unlock the front door to let in a repair guy, turn on the airconditioner, turn off security zones and monitor what's going on on the internet.

Of course in that installation, the entertainment system is linked to just about everything, the sprinkler timers can boil an egg, and all the stuff you've read about can be done.

At the other extreme I have a basic bus installation, operating lights only. All lights have dimmers, each switch can be individually programmed, and all lights come on when the fire alarm goes off. There are built in timers.

I was going to link the sprinklers to it, but a good four stage controller costs about $120.00, less than the cost of wiring to the C-bus +programming.

I was going to give the Star-Bus a go, but for a few dollars, any clever Comms tech can wire the same configuration using jumpers in a distribution board for a couple of thousand dollars less. We can now reticulate as you describe using one set top box, DVD etc, to each point in the house.

I was going to do one of their reticulated sound/ IR control things, but for less money bought a really flash Bose system which does it better anyway.

I did get an IR control, which lets my mum turn off her bedroom light without getting out of bed when she's visiting, and that's OK, but don't think you're going to use it in any other situation, by the time you find the controller you could have walked from one end of the house to the other and turned off all the lights, besides it's only a line of site thing.

Conclusions:

Cons
It's expensive.
In it's basic installation it does nothing that an analogue system won't do
Once committed to it, there's no going back, all wiring goes back to the switchboard, switches are computer senders only not electrical switches.
It doesn't do anything that can't be done with a basic installation and a lot of mucking around.
Software is buggy, and you will know a lot more about programming the system than the blokes you are paying to do it. (Get a copy of the software and their basic installation programme)

Pros
It's cool in a gadgetty blokey sort of way, although Mrs Midge likes it more than I do.
Complete flexibility in programming, any switch point can power any light anywhere.
Examples in our house:
"Panic" switch next to the bed which turns every light on.
"Panic" switch next to the bed which turns every outside light on.
"WeeWee" switch next to the bed which turns one bed room light, hall light, kitchen, ensuite all at 25% illumination.
"Master" switches beside bed and also in garage which turn off all lights.
"Power Saver" One switch turns on bathroom light, fan and heater, but fan and heater turn off automatically after 15 and 10 minutes respectively. Each is also individually controlled.
"Pantry" switch on a five minute timer

Of course you would programme heating timers and over-rides in, just as we have variable speed ceiling fans controlled from three positions in our bedroom. Completely unneccessary, but we like it.

There are heaps more, and odd lights linked in circuits in different ways.
Programming is limitless (and probably pointless) and once set up you'll never touch it probably.

It's probably the next big thing, if you worry about that sort of thing.

I got the hardware at a substantial discount, and if I'd paid retail would probably be looking at about $4,000 more than a straight installation. We'd do it again, but neither of us can say why... it doesn't make sense, but there you have it.

It's a day-long topic, so am happy to answer questions from a user perspective. Just get in quick or you'll have to wait till September!

:D :D :D

P

[Grunt]

"WeeWee" switch next to the bed which turns one bed room light, hall light, kitchen, ensuite all at 25% illumination.


At your age this is a necessity. :D:D:D

[silentC]

Thanks Midge. I knew you'd be on the case ;)

A couple of questions:

Do you need to know what you're likely to hook up before you put the wiring in? Being a bus system, I'd think not but are there limitations on what you can connect?

When it comes to controlling things like heating/air and so on, is it just switch on/off or does it get smarter - do you have to buy CBUS enabled appliances?

I had a feeling that a lot of the stuff it does could be done better by specific gadgets but I like the idea of being able to control everything through one interface. Yet there is always something in the house that wont talk to the system and so that defeats the prupose somewhat.

The wife likes the idea of calling the house and saying "I'm on my way home" so that it would switch on the heater and the lights (and fill the spa bath and heat it up, pop the champaigne cork etc etc).

In reality, I would probably only put in the lighting control and a camera on the front yard and maybe the rumpus room so I can watch the kids from the shed! Yes, I'm serious.

I suppose you have to run the CBUS cabling and then there would be coax and other cabling for the TV networking stuff...

[bitingmidge]

Do you need to know what you're likely to hook up before you put the wiring in? Being a bus system, I'd think not but are there limitations on what you can connect?
No. Within reason, as long as you can get the cables back to the bus, you can do whatever you like whenever. Because the "switching" is just to cat 5 comms cable daisy chained, you can add more controls anywhere or reprogramme existing ones to suit the new device.

Obviously current draw limitations will apply(!) but because the cabling is in a straight line it's usually pretty easy to retrofit that bit. Electrical cabling is the cheap bit of the system, on our house we "saved" $2,500 in cabling compared to an analogue version of the same system.

New systems designed for retrofits have wireless controls so the flexibility is not an issue.


When it comes to controlling things like heating/air and so on, is it just switch on/off or does it get smarter - do you have to buy CBUS enabled appliances?
It can get as smart as you can afford. Sophisticated time clocks are really easy, a phone/internet interface costs jigger all if you make provision at the start.
No. I don't have any CBus power points. Try as I did to justify the cost, I couldn't forsee a situation where I would ever need to control a device remotely. Let's face it TV recorders (particularly the new digital ones) and even ovens have pretty sophisticated timers themselves, and they don't need to be over-ridden.


I had a feeling that a lot of the stuff it does could be done better by specific gadgets but I like the idea of being able to control everything through one interface. Yet there is always something in the house that wont talk to the system and so that defeats the prupose somewhat.

I haven't worked out the purpose yet, but when I do I'll let you know :rolleyes: . As mentioned above, the lighting is a gimmick but good. Security linked in works well. Heating controls work well. Things that run by timers work well, but in my view the ability to turn them on outside of timer hours is the key.



The wife likes the idea of calling the house and saying "I'm on my way home" so that it would switch on the heater and the lights (and fill the spa bath and heat it up, pop the champaigne cork etc etc).

All possible except the champaigne cork. Expensive, but possible. The dial in heater/airconditioner is probably the next step from lighting, and the one that I've seen mostly.[/QUOTE]

Interestingly I think, the guys selling the stuff tend to be home entertainment guys, and their focus seems to be on that stuff, which already has pretty sophisticated controls. I think the "benefits" are in the far more mundane areas which don't have the controls as standard.



In reality, I would probably only put in the lighting control and a camera on the front yard and maybe the rumpus room so I can watch the kids from the shed! Yes, I'm serious.

I've looked at similar. Lighting and heating(if we had any). Think about whether you'd be better using wireless computer cameras and a cheap 'puter as a monitor. Wireless networking is a beauty and you can talk to us from our shed too.

It's easy to set up either system to log in via the web and see what's going on. We used to check on our shops that way.

I'm not a fan of TV's for monitoring purposes, usually you have to check on stuff just as Warney's about to bowl the ball of the century. You don't need it in house anyway...four steps to the front door!! (different if you live on the 20th floor.)



I suppose you have to run the CBUS cabling and then there would be coax and other cabling for the TV networking stuff...
Yep.

TV although it may be worth getting a phone/data point near the TV for future pay for view stuff, and we are putting them in kitchens to connect internet fridges.
:eek:

All the fridges do is have an internet monitor, and there are already systems available to link all the different systems via a web interface. Not hard to do yourself if you a bit handy, and a real geekfreek.

Cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

Could you at least run the wiring?

That way you've got it there if you win the lottery or something at a later date and can afford to get the full box and dice.
Sadly no.

Two completely different wiring setups. We used the basic version to get us set up for the lottery win!

Cheers,

P

[bitingmidge]

At your age this is a necessity. :D:D:D

A portent of things to come for you too methinks!!

:D :D :D
P

[silentC]

OK, so for example, with lighting where is the switching/dimming actually done? At the BUS controller or somewhere else? There would either have to be 240v wiring from each light back to the controller, or there would have to be a local controller with each light, wouldn't there? Do you have a broom cupboard full of black boxes?

[journeyman Mick]

Our local high school has everything running through CBUS, lights, power points, fans, airconditioning, bells etc etc. I worked there for a few months while I did my teaching prac and in that short space of time a technician had to come quite a few times to reprogramme and trouble shoot. School bells going off at wrong times, some equipment in man arts not powering up, lights turning on and off at innapropriate times etc etc. I don't know how sensitive these setups are to supply voltage fluctuations, but we do have a pretty variable power supply in our area. I guess all these systems are great when working but a real pain in the backside when not.

The last boat fitout I did had all the engine management controls fully computerised. It almost didn't get launched on time because the "Love Bug" virus (remeber that?) had disrupted all the email of the company who built the motors (German company). The motors are shipped with blank chips, technician comes on site and programs chips from a tailored package that's emailed to him. Motors are programmed to suit operating conditions, hull shape etc etc. Anyway they got it up and running (just) and then on sea trials a hose burst which sprayed salty water all over one of the engine room modules. Motors still ran, but no gears selectable on transmissions. So the boat bobbed around for a few hours while we got in contact with the manufacturers, we had to unplug all the boxes and plug them back in again. Got it all running but I'm really leery of a system that has all your contols (steering, throttles & gears) all connected to little black boxes connected with ribbon cables.

I guess a malfunction in a home system wouldn't be catastrophic but it would be damn annoying and who knows how long before these systems become unstable. Now I'm definitely not a dark sider, but I like to control my electrons manually. I guess though that as you're a proffesional geek Darren (using it as a technical term, no offense intended) it wouldn't seem as arcane to you.

Mick

[silentC]

it would be damn annoying
Especially if it turned on all the house lights at 3:00am :eek:

Whilst it's true that I'm a programmer in my day job, I absolutely hate working on computers and they give me the when they don't work. I'm not looking for any extra stress, that's for sure....

[bitingmidge]

OK, so for example, with lighting where is the switching/dimming actually done? At the BUS controller or somewhere else? There would either have to be 240v wiring from each light back to the controller, or there would have to be a local controller with each light, wouldn't there? Do you have a broom cupboard full of black boxes?
The BUS is just that, a bus bar with all the stuff plugged in at that point.

Curiously I do have a broom cupboard (will post the pics tonight), see #5 on Midge's playroom plan! All the black boxes clip onto the bar. The wiring goes from each light back to the Bus.

Some of the light fittings available have local controllers as well, but at that point I give up trying to understand, explain or excuse. I just don't see the point!

In response to Mick: we have surge, lightning and all the other protection built in to the switch setup, so the whole house is protected.
Initial programming was a painful process mostly due to the fact that it was the electrician's first attempt and he was still learning (part of the deal I did with him to make the cost a bit workable!).

I fully expect that at some time in the future some of the smart bits will die, but I figure that the cost of fixing will be somewhat less by then.

As far as the programming goes, it's just a database for crying out loud, but the guys doing it usually make it hard because they are used to using pliers and crimping tools not keyboards.

I have had a few jobs which took a few days to sort out, but don't know of one that has gone out of whack once programmed.

As I said in the beginning it doesn't do anything you can't do in another way, (although it is a lot more elegant than having a panel with 30 dimmers on it).

My motivation was one of those "money where your mouth is" things to see if it was really like the fuss. I still can't logically explain why we would do it again, those that know it's there bag us remorselessly, those that don't..... don't.

We like it though.

:confused:
P

[silentC]

If you could run a single power loop for your lighting and have a switching unit attached to each, then just the low voltage cable back to the bus, it would save a lot of money on cable, but then you would have the cost of the remote unit. It would probably make a lot more sense to do it that way if you were putting in a wireless system.

I suppose it depends on the 'granularity' you want. You probably wouldn't wire every single light back to the bus, they'd be in banks eg. half the downlights in the lounge to one switch and half to another, so you can switch them off and on in groups. If you want individual control over each light, you probably need to see someone about your obsessive/compulsive syndrome.

Is the programming done through the controller itself, or do you plug in a laptop?

[bitingmidge]

I suppose it depends on the 'granularity' you want. You probably wouldn't wire every single light back to the bus, they'd be in banks eg. half the downlights in the lounge to one switch and half to another, so you can switch them off and on in groups. If you want individual control over each light, you probably need to see someone about your obsessive/compulsive syndrome.

Is the programming done through the controller itself, or do you plug in a laptop?
We run all lights back individually, but switch/dim in banks as necessary.

That's one of the tricks, you can then change which lights are in which banks at a future time. You don't have to have individual control, but it's nice knowing you can :rolleyes: . Actually the spark won't give you any money back for saving him the effort, you still get charged by the fitting, so you'd only be short changing yourself. (I tried that argument!)

Plug in the laptop. I was thinking for a time of getting a $100 PC (shudder :eek: ) box just to sit there and log in through remote desktop from anywhere. Still am, but since I haven't touched a control in two years it would seem to be just a gimmick.

Every now and then I get a bright idea about doing something gee whizz and run for a laptop to programme it, but forget what it was by the time I plug in.

I do have a switch in the garage that turns a few lights on through the house so one can navigate at night without having to turn on any others, but haven't got around to running it off the door controller with a light sensor over-ride. See! It's just endless!

Cheers,

P

[Sir Stinkalot]

Come on ..... nobody has approached the real big question here .....

How can CBUS help me out in the shed?

[Trav]

I like to think of myself as a bit of a gadget freak, but this stuff just makes my head hurt. I think it sounds great, but I'm buggered if I understand much of this thread at all. :confused:

Not that I don't think it is useful or interesting - quite the opposite. I guess I need to do some more reading/cogitating on it. :D

I'm replacing the ceiling in the lounge/dining/kitchen in my new house (well, installing a new ceiling over the pink-painted exposed beams) and I was going to get a sparkie to run new wiring so that I could use downlights throughout this area, rather than the uber-70s wagon-wheel light fitting that is currently in place.

Might be a hard question to answer given you haven't seen it, but is it worth using this c-bus stuff for only part of the house? Or do I really need to do it for the whole bang lot to make it worthwhile.

I like the idea of most of the things you've all suggested, but I can't justify the cost of retrofitting the wiring to the rest of the house at this point.

Interested in your views.

Trav

[silentC]

OK last couple of questions:

Turning things off and on is one thing but how do you get it to adjust the volume on your stereo or change the temperature setting on your air conditioner?

Do you have one of the touch screen thingies?

[LineLefty]

I can just see the pile of roughsawn stacked by hte jointer/planer with a sophisitcated power feed system. You call up and say "I"m on the way home, joint and thickness the pile to X and Y). You tell the power sharpener to turn on and sharpen the plane blade for 2 minutes and then 1 minute at microbevel and finally you get the trolobyte to sweep the floor ready for your arrival.

The way I see it, all this CBUS stuff is a bit well, outdated before its begun. It will be looked back upon like the briefcase sized mobile phones of the 80s.

There wil lcome a day where we wont have "PC's" on a desk but a "central house computer" that is built in to the structure no different from a theatre room or walk in pantry. Everything is wired to it form the begining and you just have any number of terminals around the house.......yet to come?

[bitingmidge]

OK last couple of questions:

You think?? :D :D


Turning things off and on is one thing but how do you get it to adjust the volume on your stereo or change the temperature setting on your air conditioner?
Why do you want to?
Changing the temp is easy, of course you need one with an electronic controller and then set up the interface, but if you are using a properly installed air conditioning unit it won't need to have the temp adjusted EVER ;).

As for the stereo, what's wrong with the remote? At some point you have to be near something to input data into it, I don't understand why (the marketing guys obviously do) you need to make things so complicated.

Our solution (which cost only slightly more than all my tools combined :eek: was to use a Bose Lifestyle system, which controls all devices, and is clever enough to remember the volume you turned off each component in which zone as well. One remote covers all, at about 2/3 the price of doing it through the CBus, and with a nice bit of kit to boot.

Some less costly solutions will do it all, but not with the same simplicity(as far as I have found). We have provided the smallest Bose System in some of our apartments just for the easy one-remote feature.





Do you have one of the touch screen thingies?
Yep, mines the early version, I got it thrown in for nix, and it isn' t worth the price I paid. I have seen systems using a 12 or 15" LCD screen and proper web interface and they work very well. "One day" I might have a crack at producing one out of interest.

They are able to be used to programme controls apparently, but not worth the bother.



I'm buggered if I understand much of this thread at all.I spent a couple of years trying to understand it. Couldn't see what all the fuss was about, which was why I did it. Had it not been of professional interest to me, I doubt that I would have installed it.

Might be a hard question to answer given you haven't seen it, but is it worth using this c-bus stuff for only part of the house? Or do I really need to do it for the whole bang lot to make it worthwhile.
I would not bother for just two rooms, but to confuse the issue further our neighbours did, and are quite happy. There again they also went the whole TV/Sound control thing, that I hope I have "clearly" explained my reason for not doing!

I think the base infrastructure required would be enough to do the whole house so the cost would be even more exhorbitant!

Cheers,
P

[silentC]

The way I see it, all this CBUS stuff is a bit well, outdated before its begun. It will be looked back upon like the briefcase sized mobile phones of the 80s.
Yes, like my Pentium III 450 was 3 weeks after I bought. However at the time it was top of the range and better than the Pentium 100 it replaced. So if we take your argument to it's logical conclusion, we would never buy anything because it will be outdated one day.

[silentC]

Why do you want to?
I don't really, but they say it can be done so I'm curious to know how. It's obviously not going to work on my old National Panasonic freestanding air conditioner with the slide control on the front, is it?


They are able to be used to programme controls apparently, but not worth the bother.
They show a pic of the screen and it has these lovely virtual slider controls to dim the lights with.

I need to get some prices and see if it's worthwhile. Bose Lifestyle huh? Will it play my scratchy old Eric Clapton LPs?

[craigb]

No, but did I mention this great new EC DVD that you can buy nowadays?

Ask Col if you don't believe me :D

[silentC]

Just checked out the price of the BOSE Lifestyle 48. Try $8000 :eek: It had better sound like Eric is in the room with you for that :cool:

[Termite]

The only gizmo I have is a remote controlled light switch hooked up to a 3hp rated relay, so I can turn my dust extractor on from anywhere in the workshop. Saves walking from whichever machine I'm using each time I want to switch on/off. :D

[bitingmidge]

Don't confuse the system with the controller.

One of the electrical gurus may correct me here, but the "BUS" is just that, a bit of the switch board that allows you to connect the smart bits to. Unless someone finds a wireless way of getting electricity to a globe without killing anyone who gets in the way, for the forseeable future at least, we are going to need wire.

If you wire back to a point where it can be electronically controlled, you have provided the framework for future developments.

I am at a bit of a loss to invent more things to do with light fittings other than turn them on, off or dim them in a particular sequence though? :confused:

The brains we already have can actually do that, I'm guessing new ones will just get smaller, controls wireless (already here), and new interfaces with equipment (make up your own minds how necessary!)

If on the other hand, you wire traditionally, the yet to be invented interface will have to happen at each switch.

Cheers,

P ;)

[bitingmidge]

They show a pic of the screen and it has these lovely virtual slider controls to dim the lights with.

I need to get some prices and see if it's worthwhile. Bose Lifestyle huh? Will it play my scratchy old Eric Clapton LPs?

Got the virtual slides. Lovely virtually, pain in the patoota reality. The normal switches; touch to turn on/off, hold to dim are every bit as lovely to use as the virtual sliders look.

No need for top shelf, the 3.2.1 is a lot cooler than it looks. It's a bit like planes really, the LV will do the job, but the LN is cooler.

The first demo I saw with the 3.2.1 which is a three speaker virtual surround system (?) the guys set up in our boardroom with the usual five speaker array, and played the flash boom boom 3D Surround sound DVD on the tele.

"Yes yes that's fantastic"....yawn

Then they showed us the rear speaker were hollow fakes. :eek: :eek: :eek:

After the first couple of grand, every dollar spent makes you feel better not hear better!

cheers,

P

[kiwigeo]

Sod all this technology!!

Have just been on the phone to the wife and the phone line at home is playing up (get someone elses fax machine everytime I try and phone home) and the damn ASDL is down. Wifes mobile isnt setup properly and shes lost the handbook. Telstra tech called and couldnt find anything wrong with the line. Tried to trouble shoot the problem from out here in the Timor Sea but gave up.

To make matters worse here I am sitting out on a high tech oil rig where we havent been able to do anything for 3 days while we wait for parts from the US to get all the wonderful technology working again. A 4 week hitch has just had a couple of weeks added to it......

(rant mode off)

[silentC]

One of the electrical gurus may correct me here, but the "BUS" is just that, a bit of the switch board that allows you to connect the smart bits to. Unless someone finds a wireless way of getting electricity to a globe without killing anyone who gets in the way, for the forseeable future at least, we are going to need wire.

If you wire back to a point where it can be electronically controlled, you have provided the framework for future developments.

Imagine a light fitting that has a wireless receiver in it. You can switch it off and on and dim it through a wireless connection. Then the only cabling you need is the 240v for the globe. You run a single cable all the way around your house and connect all the lights up in parallel, then you can control each one from a central location. No need for switch wires.

What's that buzzing in my head?

[knucklehead]

I haven't had much to do with the C-BUS system, but I did look at using it when we did a renovation. After going through what the system could do I concluded that for our household MOST for the stuff was of no use. The stuff that was of interest could be done cheaper (much cheaper) by other means.
It seems that the C-BUS systems is designed to make the electricans life easy, not mine. However I have seen the C-BUS stuff used on industrial scale and it is very good (and cost savings make it viable).
For the household applications there other options. The phone and data points are easily done with cheap off the shelf equipment. The video and audio stuff likewise. Alarms are dirt cheap and reliable. The only thing that the C-BUS can do that is somewhat unique is control the lights and power, which it seems to do quite well.

In short it is my half assed opinion that C-BUS does its core function of power control very well. The add on functions don't come up to parr.

[bitingmidge]

In short it is my half assed opinion that C-BUS does its core function of power control very well. The add on functions don't come up to parr.

How come it took me twenty posts to say what you just said in two sentences?
:D :D :D

P (last log on!)

[echnidna]

How come it took me twenty posts to say what you just said in two sentences?
:D :D :D

P (last log on!)

You must need a holiday BM ;) ;)

[kiwigeo]

How come it took me twenty posts to say what you just said in two sentences?
:D :D :D

P (last log on!)
You could have a budding career ahead of you as an author of software help manuals.