How can I fix a recently sanded and varnished floor that went bad???

[goto200]

Hi there

Unfortunately (for me, I already paid) the floor sanding and varnishing job I recently had done by a professional sander on old 150mm hoop pine boards is terrible. The third and final coat of urethane 'rejected', causing button sized circles/craters all over the finished floor. After finally agreeing to fix the mess, the guy screened the floor (same as he did between coats) and applied another coat of urethane. He assured me it would completely fix the problem and the floor would be beautiful and flat. But it's not, the circles/craters are plain to see, even though the coat didn't reject this time. The bottom of the craters have more urethane cover than when it completely rejected, but they are still plainly seen. To make matters worse, when you run your hand over the finish it feels like sand. It looks like there is grit all through the finish, but I can't tell if it's some kind of contamination in the urethane or if the urethane itself has caused it. I didn't notice this particular problem after the third coat that rejected was applied, but I wasn't looking for it because I was focussing on the circles/craters.

I can't deal with the floor sander guy who did this anymore. He was nice enough, but I just can't trust him. He got his money and is not interested in doing what needs to be done to fix it properly. I'm cutting my losses and moving on.

I have some queries though that I hope someone might be able to help me with.

1. Do I need to have the floor sanded back to wood and have three coats applied again?
2. Or, is it possible to have the urethane cut back so that most of it is removed and then have either one or two coats reapplied?
3. Can anyone recommend a GOOD floor sander who will objectively assess the problem and then fix accordingly?

I don't really want more wood sanded off as there are borer holes just starting to show in some sections and I'm concerned taking off more wood will make this much worse.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions you might have.

Robbie

[justonething]

Could you post a photo or 2. I can't picture it myself what you mean when you say "rejected".

[goto200]

Thanks for the reply, when I use the term 'rejected' I'm repeating what the floor sander called it. It's this - the urethane (polish) 'pulls away' from the wood in button sized circles, slightly less than a five cent coin - i.e. it doesn't 'stick' to that part of the wood. Where it pulls away it forms a raised rim around the edge of the circle. It looks like a moon scape when you look across it because its pulled away consistently right across the whole floor.

The fourth (fix) coat didn't do this, so it filled the craters to a point, but the profile of craters can still be seen, and really clearly. I'll try and post some photos (I'll need to work out how to do it).

Thanks again

[Bob38S]

Have you or others used silicone based furniture polishes?

Although I think the "rejection" {possibly fisheyes} would have happened on the first coat if this had been the case.

[RoyG]

Hi there

Unfortunately (for me, I already paid) the floor sanding and varnishing job I recently had done by a professional sander on old 150mm hoop pine boards is terrible. The third and final coat of urethane 'rejected', causing button sized circles/craters all over the finished floor. After finally agreeing to fix the mess, the guy screened the floor (same as he did between coats) and applied another coat of urethane. He assured me it would completely fix the problem and the floor would be beautiful and flat. But it's not, the circles/craters are plain to see, even though the coat didn't reject this time. The bottom of the craters have more urethane cover than when it completely rejected, but they are still plainly seen. To make matters worse, when you run your hand over the finish it feels like sand. It looks like there is grit all through the finish, but I can't tell if it's some kind of contamination in the urethane or if the urethane itself has caused it. I didn't notice this particular problem after the third coat that rejected was applied, but I wasn't looking for it because I was focussing on the circles/craters.

I can't deal with the floor sander guy who did this anymore. He was nice enough, but I just can't trust him. He got his money and is not interested in doing what needs to be done to fix it properly. I'm cutting my losses and moving on.

I have some queries though that I hope someone might be able to help me with.

1. Do I need to have the floor sanded back to wood and have three coats applied again?
2. Or, is it possible to have the urethane cut back so that most of it is removed and then have either one or two coats reapplied?
3. Can anyone recommend a GOOD floor sander who will objectively assess the problem and then fix accordingly?

I don't really want more wood sanded off as there are borer holes just starting to show in some sections and I'm concerned taking off more wood will make this much worse.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions you might have.

Robbie

Talk to the Queensland Building and Construction Commission in Brisbane. If he's a Licensed/Registered Trades Person (i.e. House Painter, etc) then he will be registered with that Govt organisation. When they are licensed, they are required by law to have professional indemnity insurance, so if they stuff up a job, you and the trades person have insurance that can be claimed on. If he's not registered / licensed with the Queensland Building and Construction Commission, and he's got a history of dodgy jobs, then they probably already know about him, and can offer advice and potential financial or corrective assistance anyway.

If he is not registered or licensed, then your best bet to get the job done properly is initially the Office of Fair Trading Queensland, and probably with their advice and input, take him to the Small Claims Tribunal. It will only cost you a few dollars to take him to the Small Claims Tribunal, usually at your local court house. You represent yourself - usually, there are no legal professionals allowed. Get all your paper evidence together (your written statement, copies of quotes, copies of receipts, and photographs). Prepare a written statement that you'll refer to at the Tribunal when you present your story, and state what you want. For instance, as the bloke has done the job badly the first time, and then tried to fix it and failed, you want the Magistrate to require that the job be redone by a qualified and licensed trades person, and you want it done at the original tradesman's expense. Before the hearing, get a quote from a qualified and licensed Floor Sander & Painter to fix the job. Include that quote with your paperwork submission. The bloke who did the job will get a chance to reply to your submission. The Magistrate will probably ask clarifying questions, and then make a ruling. The Magistrate will sometimes try to mediate an agreed solution during the hearing. More often, if what you are asking for is fair and reasonable, and the bloke who did the job has no reasonable explanation, and no insurance to fall back on, then the Magistrate will usually award what you've asked for if that request is fair and reasonable.

You don't have to accept dodgy workmanship and failed jobs from trades persons ! Don't let them get away with it, because if they successfully get away with doing a dodgy job for you, then that only encourages them to keep cutting corners doing dodgy jobs for other customers.

Regards,

RoyG

[rob streeper]

Sounds like your first and/or second coat had silicone/fisheye eliminator in it and the third didn't. Sand off the bad coat to smoothness and use a flowing agent such as this :http://www.ntxtools.com/network-tool-warehouse/MAR-20242.html or whatever your PU sales agent suggests for your particular product.

[soundman]

It is an iron rule of finishing of any type .... you can not cover an imperfection with another coat .... if you have an imperfection or flaw you must sand that flaw completly out before you re-apply.

Pretty much all "floor sanders" are tarred with the same brush ....... they simply do not know any other way of doing things and put bluntly they are not real clever.

The first clue is the machines they use ...... they simply will not believe there is any other way to sand a floor than with a very agressive upright machine and to take several mm of thickness off ya boards doing it

when he says "screened' the floor ....... he's pretty much just given it a scuff to help adhesion of the next coat.

One fact that many simply do not grasp , is there is a time window to recoating polyeuratne ........ if recoating prior to it curing out ..... 24 hours to 2 days depending on product and conditions ..... following coats will bond without further treatment ...... otherwise the surface needs to be properly sanded to achieve a good bond.

IF the third coat did not bond ...... it occurs to me that the surface was not sufficiently sanded after the second coat. ...... in particular IF the surface in the pits of the eyes was not touched by the sanding it would not bond there.

As for the grittiness in the current coat ...... a couple of things could resunt in this ...... the third inadequately adhered coat was not completely removed, the solvent in the folloing coat got under the inadequately adhered coat resulting in the coarse finish.

These guys will get try and get away with whatever they can ........ it will probably take more time to rectify this than it took to start with.

I'm not convinced that the circles are fisheyes resulting from silicon ..... though it is a possibility ........ in some timbers particularly pine .... finish can be sucked down into cracks, fishures and wormholes resulting in pits ....... they where probaly there in the first and second coats ....... remember you cant cover imperfections with more coats.

The solution is to sand till the imperfections are sanded out and recoat ....... this I would do with a hand held random orbit sander ....... but anybody from the building industry will tell you that is stupid and want to take anoter 2mm off ya floorboards with an agressive stand up machine.

An indication of the level of technology and understanding these guys have ..... they typically sand then apply 2, 3 or more coats of the same product ...... they pretty much would not know a sanding sealer if it bit em on the ARwhybother. .....

cheers

[FeastWatson]

Hi goto200,

Cratering, which is often referred to as rejection, shows up as defects in the coating that resemble craters. As Bob38S mentioned, this is caused by contaminants on the floor such as grease, oil, silicone, wax, polish and some household chemicals. It can also be caused by incompatibility between an old and new coating. A bitty finish is normally caused by airborne particles settling on wet finish, or by sanding dust that has not been completely removed.

From our experience and going from your description, we would suggest there are two options to fix the problem.

The first is to sand back to bare timber and start again. The second is to sand the existing finish hard enough to remove the rejection, but not back to bare wood, and recoat.

The trick with the second option is to sand hard enough without sanding back to bare timber. Quite often, it is easier for a floorsander to simply sand it right back to bare timber. If there are concerns about the remaining thickness of the floor boards, then the second option may be the only way to go. The best person to make a decision would be the floorsander when he has a look at the floor. The rejection may be such that a complete sand may be needed to remove it.

Regarding recommending a good floor sander, you can find our recommended applicators on the Feast Watson website (http://www.feastwatson.com.au/consumer/flooring-applicators/).

We hope this helps.

Feast Watson

[Bob38S]

Welcome to the forum FW.

Having used your products and your tech info number I feel sure your input will be worthwhile.

[goto200]

Thanks everyone for your replies. This has been more helpful than all the advice put together from sanders who came out, said they'd fix it, and then don't turn up. I understand from your replies that any number of reasons can cause the problem and that I'm probably best to have it sanded back to bare timber and start from scratch. I'll keep looking.
Thanks again
Robbie

[Mobyturns]

Another thing to consider is the shelf life of the product that was used. Product technology has improved remarkably but old stock is still old stock. We used to see this 40 years ago with the early "poly" finishes.