Is this paintjob worth $60 an hour???

[FenceFurniture]

Got a guy here putting up a pergola over the back patio. It will be covered with clear Polycarb to keep rain off, and will be a really good lifestyle improvement. The construction work that he is doing is good.

However, when it comes to finishing, I don't think I can learn much from this fella.

Here's the paintwork on the most looked at wall of the house (which was replaced by him with new baords about 3 months ago).

At night:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=358545&d=1441277391

Overcast daylight (same boards):

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=358548&d=1441277418


Now I called this out as not being of the standard required (although I am not paying for it). I was completely dismissed out of hand as "making a farce of yourself to bring it up. I paint houses. I'm painting houses." along with a lot of other unpleasant bullying remarks to get out of it.

The next day we have this offering. A superthick coat of enamel (no undercoat or primer on KD Pine - none of the paintwork has UC or priming and it's all treated pine). This was the second coat, and it was done in the morning and left in full sun for several hours until this rather delightful bubble as big as a 50c piece and associated snakeskin was generated. The previous day it had the first equally thick coat applied.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=358547&d=1441277409

This afternoon I had to help hold the board (fascia) in position for fixing. The bloody thing kept going out of fluch underneath and I eventually discovered why - the snakeskin was sliding upwards in my hands! IT LOOKS LIKE CRAP NOW!


A new board above the door head. It had a small hood stuck on with Sikaflex and screws (by him 3 months ago). That hood is no longer necessary, and so the result is (and there is plenty more out of picture):

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=358549&d=1441277426

No sanding, no nothing, just slap the thickest coat of paint on possible.


Rafter and purlin tops get nothing at all, and they will have clear polycarb over them, which will intensify the sun if anything.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=358546&d=1441277401

I observed this to him, and he fabricated a reason to put a single coat on them this afternoon (dunno what, wqasn't listening as I have tuned out a few days ago).


So people, am I being unreasonable and expecting too much for $60 an hour? (by all-up quote, but that's the rate it was based upon).

I've heard at least 5-6 times now that this is the Rolls-Royce version of this pergola. Methinks Mr Royce might move this character from the paint shop to somewhere else - perhaps sump-oil clearing, for I doubt he'd be satisfied with this standard.

[elanjacobs]

That is a $h!te job if I ever saw one. That's $10/hr kid-from-down-the-road-holiday-job grade.

[DavidG]

All the timber facing the poly needs two coats of white. I use solarguard.
The rest I won't comment on as mum taught me to say nothing if I could not say something nice.......:C

[Evanism]

FF, fire this turkey immediately. Don't pay him a cent.

Hire another trade to rectify the work.

Let him take it to arbitration. He won't. He is a scheister.

[FenceFurniture]

FF, fire this turkey immediately. I can't.
Don't pay him a cent. Not up to me, but have sent the owner some pics of things to look out for on Saturday when he inspects.

Hire another trade to rectify the work. Pffft - I could do that. Actually, I think even Nursie could.

Let him take it to arbitration. He won't. He is a scheister.Furthermore, there have been comments coming in the other direction about some specifications and executions of some procedures to do with my deck - overkill, waste of time, completely unnecessary, dodgy.

Uh huh. :roll:

[Evanism]

I've built 3 houses, renovated 2 more and a landlord on 3. This work is 100% amateur hour. I encounter these criminals every job - maintenance, repair, extension and renovation. Fire him. Document. Photograph. Eliminate. Purge.

His abuse is proof enough.

The real hassle is you will have to spend more fixing this rubbish. I have long advocated an official tradesman register and bond precisely for this purpose.

A few years ago I didn't follow my own rules and allowed a team to complete a house without supervision. The rectification work was endless. Never again.

My absolute experience is to fire them instantly, not give them a chance, hire another to fix and bill them for it. I use the small claims court all the time. It's an easy process and they loose 100% of the time.

[KBs PensNmore]

It's been a long time since I painted bare timber, my father was a painter and I used to help him in the school holidays, but this is absolute crap workmanship. To rectify this, it will need to be taken back to bare timber, and then coated with a good quality primer, then 2 coats of quality paint. If not, the paint will peel off or blister again. Where the blister is, I would say was caused by moisture underneath. Because the paint is THICK, it won't have soaked into the pores of the timber, giving it a good hold, hence the blistering.
Keep all your photos together of this as proof of poor workmanship, when and if you take or are taken to court over this. I wouldn't pay him one cent, as this could be seen as accepting the job as done.
In SA, we have a licensing system, where contractors must have a license for their field of work, if the job is over $500. If someone is self employed or has staff doing the job, they must also have a supervisors license.
Kryn

[andy maidenhead]

Looks almost like a textured finish ..

Got a guy here putting up a pergola over the back patio. It will be covered with clear Polycarb to keep rain off, and will be a really good lifestyle improvement. The construction work that he is doing is good.

However, when it comes to finishing, I don't think I can learn much from this fella.

Here's the paintwork on the most looked at wall of the house (which was replaced by him with new baords about 3 months ago).

At night:

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=358545&d=1441277391

Overcast daylight (same boards):

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=358548&d=1441277418


Now I called this out as not being of the standard required (although I am not paying for it). I was completely dismissed out of hand as "making a farce of yourself to bring it up. I paint houses. I'm painting houses." along with a lot of other unpleasant bullying remarks to get out of it.

The next day we have this offering. A superthick coat of enamel (no undercoat or primer on KD Pine - none of the paintwork has UC or priming and it's all treated pine). This was the second coat, and it was done in the morning and left in full sun for several hours until this rather delightful bubble as big as a 50c piece and associated snakeskin was generated. The previous day it had the first equally thick coat applied.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=358547&d=1441277409

This afternoon I had to help hold the board (fascia) in position for fixing. The bloody thing kept going out of fluch underneath and I eventually discovered why - the snakeskin was sliding upwards in my hands! IT LOOKS LIKE CRAP NOW!


A new board above the door head. It had a small hood stuck on with Sikaflex and screws (by him 3 months ago). That hood is no longer necessary, and so the result is (and there is plenty more out of picture):

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=358549&d=1441277426

No sanding, no nothing, just slap the thickest coat of paint on possible.


Rafter and purlin tops get nothing at all, and they will have clear polycarb over them, which will intensify the sun if anything.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=358546&d=1441277401

I observed this to him, and he fabricated a reason to put a single coat on them this afternoon (dunno what, wqasn't listening as I have tuned out a few days ago).


So people, am I being unreasonable and expecting too much for $60 an hour? (by all-up quote, but that's the rate it was based upon).

I've heard at least 5-6 times now that this is the Rolls-Royce version of this pergola. Methinks Mr Royce might move this character from the paint shop to somewhere else - perhaps sump-oil clearing, for I doubt he'd be satisfied with this standard.

[derekcohen]

Brett, that is less than poor workmanship - it will actually cost you money to put right. Failure to prepare the timber is criminal. Lack of care is inexcusable.

Can you hold him accountable for the expenses?

You may need a ombudsman from the council to state that his work is below standard, and fire him, otherwise he may claim unfair dismissal and seek payment.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[FenceFurniture]

Thanks for your responses chaps.

This is how my bringing up the paint job went:

(he is denoted as "RR" for Rolls Royce)


RR: Ok, show me your concerns.

FF: The paint job on the wall.

RR: What’s ....

FF: Have a look from here – stand here (oblique angle, as it was very early morning sunlight)

RR: What’s wrong with it?

FF: What’s wrong with THAT? It’s a rushed paint job.

RR: It’s a paint job. I paint houses.

FF: Sorry, that’s… this is not how the finish was before the second coat (I put on the first coat 2 months ago).

FF: Are you saying that’s acceptable?

RR: Ah, come on mate. Seriously.

FF: Well, I’ve got to sand that off now.

RR: That’s up to you, if you want to sand it off you can. You ask “Owner” if it’s acceptable. He’s the owner. Mate, come on. Seriously.

FF: It’s not acceptable to me.

RR: Ok, fair enough, that’s (unintelligible). That’s up to you. I cannot fix that kind of stuff. Honestly,

FF: All I’m asking….

RR: It’s not acceptable to you. That’s the key, ok? That’s the key.

FF: Well I am the cat who lives here.

RR: You’re not the owner and I mean that with respect. If you’re going to disrespect my work…..

FF: I’m not disrespecting your work RR, I’m saying that……

RR: No, no, I’m f**ken painting houses.

FF: Pardon?

RR: I paint houses. I’m painting houses.

FF: I don’t care what happens elsewhere….

RR: So don’t…don’t….don’t….don’t bring it up with me. Right? Do not bring it up with me. It makes a farce of you to bring that up. I’m serious, in my eyes…

FF: To bring up that paint job?

RR: Ah, come on mate. Seriously, you talk to “Owner” about it. Complain to “Owner” about it. Seriously…

FF: And?

RR: ….don’t bring it with me. Do not bring it up with me.

FF: Why?

RR: Because it’s a joke. It’s a joke.

FF: It is a joke, actually.

RR: Come on. I don’t know where you’re coming from….

FF: THAT’S not an acceptable paint job. That’s where I’m coming from.

RR: Fix it then! Or leave it, complain to “Owner”, and see what “Owner” says.

FF: You said to me when you were here doin’ the wall that, something about a timeline on getting painting done, you said “you haven’t seen me paint yet”. Well I have now.

RR: That’s okaaay. That’s ok. But please, look, you’re really ruining……Anyway, that’s alright. Good, it’s all good.

RR: Complain to “Owner” about it, I’ll speak with “Owner”. Go from there.

….........

RR: Yeah, complain to “Owner” about the paint work.

[wheelinround]

I'll agree a crap job.
What they say is right though you get what you pay for here though you are not paying for it directly.

Tradesman painters be they good or bad doing work along side my son in quality new homes are being paid $150hr+.

Landlords do not like spending money and if the real estate agents have organised it they spend even less and pocket the rest if they can ( I have had as a landlord had real estate try do this) and get usually retired handymen to do the job who need the $$ to top up their pensions.

As the guy is saying speak to the landlord/owner/real estate agent after all they are paying for it, you are only the mug renting it and I mean that with no disrespect being a renter and having similar problems from time to time.

As for the guy get out of his hair let him get on with his poorly paid job no matter how bad it is as its the owner who suffers in the end.

[derekcohen]

Brett, I agree, that this is a rental changes it all. Unless I understand incorrectly, the painter was contracted by the owner to paint the house, and not by you (he has every right to tell you to bugger off). You do not have much say in this other than if the choice of colours is not to your liking and makes the place uninviting for you (that is, you would not have rented in the first place).

Certainly, inform the owner what he has received for his money. He may care. He may not. I imagine that he is not keen to spend any more than necessary. And what do you care if he has to fork out again to redo it in a couple of years?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I agree with Wheelin & Derek.

But still... I hate painting and don't get anywhere near any of the mentioned hourly rates, yet even I know that if the paint is so thick it doesn't flow out the brush marks. it only takes 5 mins to thin it suitably for good coverage AND flow. And consequently save more than 5 minutes in time actually spent painting.

"I do house painting." Meh. So does a twelve year old kid with a paintball gun at Halloween. :rolleyes:

[Arron]

I know if you have bubbles in your paintwork you're not doing the right thing but still I'm not sure I agree with much of whats going down here.

Firstly, when a few years ago I installed my own polycarb roofing I clearly remember the installation instructions said not to paint the top of the purlins - leave them bare. Unfortunately it didn't say why not - its remained a mystery to this day but I just assumed it was something to do with albedo - ie because a painted top surface would reflect the sunlight back onto the lower and relatively unprotected side of the polycarb.

Anyway, I just went outside and checked and yep, they are bare - and there is no way I would have done that unless it was in the instructions.


Secondly, whether he did the right thing with the 2 coats of enamel directly on bare timber is something else I'm not certain about. Unfortunately you haven't specified if its oil based enamel or acrylic. If its oil based then yep, its the wrong thing to do - you are going to need a primer and an undercoat. If its acrylic, then any paint company will tell you that if the paint is formulated for the job then there is no need for primer on bare timber, or almost any other non-metallic surface. They will tell you this with obvious frustration because they are sick of trying to bash it into people's heads that the way things were painted 30 years ago is not necessarily the best way to do it now. They will say that products like Suntuff are best painted direct to bare timber, several generous coats, and they will outlast the old primer/undercoat/enamel-topcoat regime of yore by many years.

My own experience is that this is true - if not understated.

However, what you don't get out of the acrylics is self-levelling. So its no surprise to see the brush-strokes in your photos. Again, I'm not certain about whether this is a bad job or just me failing to adapt to changing standards. I sometimes think I'm that one last person in the paint shop asking for oil-based enamel for interior work because I insist on everything self-levelling back to a glass-like coat. Everyone else must be satisfied with the look of acrylic enamels with their brush strokes and not-quite-up-their gloss levels. Am I just failing to move on - well I was the last person I know to carry a mobile phone so I guess maybe I am a slow adopter.

cheers
Arron

[FenceFurniture]

Firstly, when a few years ago I installed my own polycarb roofing I clearly remember the installation instructions said not to paint the top of the purlins - leave them bare. Unfortunately it didn't say why not - its remained a mystery to this day but I just assumed it was something to do with albedo - ie because a painted top surface would reflect the sunlight back onto the lower and relatively unprotected side of the polycarb.Dunno, but the intention was to leave them bare, I queried it (genuine query for what are now obvious reasons), but then they got a coat (because of the query or because he had asked someone else?), so who knows.


Secondly, whether he did the right thing with the 2 coats of enamel directly on bare timber is something else I'm not certain about. Unfortunately you haven't specified if its oil based enamel or acrylic. Yep, oil based enamel as noted in my OP: The next day we have this offering. A superthick coat of enamel.


If its acrylic, then any paint company will tell you that if the paint is formulated for the job then there is no need for primer on bare timber, or almost any other non-metallic surface.Rightio then, I can handle that (too damn late anyway :U)


However, what you don't get out of the acrylics is self-levelling. So its no surprise to see the brush-strokes in your photos.Nah, no chance here Arron. I used the same brush and paint the next day to paint the adjacent wall which had old paint recovered before (a bad surface to start with). It was not a good brush (too coarse) but my brush strokes are what you would expect them to be for a pretty acceptable paint job.

Quite simply he loads waaaay too much paint on the brush, applies it in very poor light, but at the speed of light, and clearly doesn't have fine motor skills down pat. It was quite a way after sunset when he finished.

He's all about saving time on each job. This is not the first work he has done here, and the situation is not quite the usual tenant/landlord/repairs guy.

I'm here for the long haul and it's available for ten years. I look after it like I owned it, and the owner, and more particularly her father with whom I deal, know and appreciate this. We have an excellent working relationship, and they are spending dough on the place for two reasons: I make suggestions (like the pergola) that will also be enjoyed by the next occupant, and I look out for normal maintenance issues - resolving many of them myself. There have been a number of improvements I have made (shed, garden, deck, nice woodie wall under pergola - next project - vege garden and shed again).

So in other words the father and I communicate directly on these matters, and I do have a reasonable say in many things. But no, I have no direct call in this matter, except to bring up what I see at the time, particularly if attending to it earlier will make a huge difference in the rectification (as is clearly the case with the brush strokes on the wall - he did actually remove the finger streak I drew in the thickest paint, just under the light (haven't asked him if he corrected anything at all on that wall - will set that up tomorrow when the owner is here).

I guess this is the killer though: we were reasonable mates until a week ago, but he was deeply offensive about someone else whom I have respect for (that of the two of us only I know - he's not met him), and then he turned in this work after yapping on about this Rolls Royce version he was doing. :doh:

There is also this, with the same people in common (i.e. him and myself):
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=195297&p=1867885#post1867885

[rob streeper]

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:PunctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w:DontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> What a mess. Your only solution for a smooth finish with alkyd enamel (sounds and looks like that's what you have) is to strip it off as, if I'm remembering correctly, the substrate is treated lumber and you're already having film separation. Looks like your painter favors brooms for application.
Alkyd's have high solid's content and are very difficult to apply smoothly with a brush. This problem can be mitigated to a degree by use of a flowing agent such as Penetrol but it's really better to roll or preferably spray these paints. If left as is it's likely that the paint will peel heavily over the next seasonal change, perhaps not too bad a result given the current appearance.
If it was mine I'd pressure wash the bad coating off, wait until thoroughly dry, substrate and atmosphere, and then prime with an appropriate outdoor rated primer suited for treated wood. Then I'd use an airless sprayer to apply the alkyd paint.
Hitting the nail on the head appears to be a problem here too.

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[rustynail]

Brett, It is the Landlord you should be talking to not the painter. There are many different standards when it comes to painting. The Landlord may be happy enough with what he is getting, who knows. Unless the painter instantly agrees with your criticism, it can only lead to a confrontation. A confrontation in which you have no say.
I remember, some years back, doing some renovation work to town houses in the city for a client. One had a tenant. We ended up charging extra for the constant interference.

[Christos]

It all comes back to the landlord and what he thinks.

And really guys painting is one of the most relaxing things you could do. I said relaxing not boring. :)

[elanjacobs]

And really guys painting is one of the most relaxing things you could do. I said relaxing not boring. :)
All the prep work beforehand, especially with plaster, leaves much to be desired though

[Bushmiller]

All the prep work beforehand, especially with plaster, leaves much to be desired though

As somebody who is at this very moment (well not really as it is nearly 2100hrs and a wee bit too dark to paint) painting an old weatherboard house (just post WW1), I whole heartedly agree.

About three layers of probably lead based paint going back to bare board is not top of the fun list.

Regards
Paul

[rwbuild]

Hope your using a dust mask of good quality with that lead paint removal

[Bushmiller]

Hope your using a dust mask of good quality with that lead paint removal

I started off with a P2 type. SWMBO insisted that I use a cannister style mask, but I have to say that combined with goggles, ear plugs and a cap I found it all too claustrophobic and not a little cumbersome. I have gone back to the P2 mask as it seems sufficient. However even the P2 masks vary. I have about three different styles.

The worst problem I have is keeping the dust from my eyes. Hence the reason I am using the safety goggles as opposed to safety glases. Even having them as tight and sealed as possible some dust still seems to work its way in and is a distinct irritant.

Regards
Paul

[rob streeper]

I started off with a P2 type. SWMBO insisted that I use a cannister style mask, but I have to say that combined with goggles, ear plugs and a cap I found it all too claustrophobic and not a little cumbersome. I have gone back to the P2 mask as it seems sufficient. However even the P2 masks vary. I have about three different styles.

The worst problem I have is keeping the dust from my eyes. Hence the reason I am using the safety goggles as opposed to safety glases. Even having them as tight and sealed as possible some dust still seems to work its way in and is a distinct irritant.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul,

When I was young I remember that exterior lead paint was removed from wood clapboard siding using propane torches. Apparently it worked very well. I don't know if doing so is legal or advisable in your jurisdiction or circumstances.

Regards,
Rob

[Evanism]

http://paintshaver.com/

[Bushmiller]

http://paintshaver.com/

I really like the look of that except I see a couple of problems. It is demonstrated on flat boards. I don't think it would work quite so well on chamfer (shiplap) style cladding because of the curves involved. Secondly it may be impractical to recess the nails so I am not sure how that would impact the cutters. Lastly it is about A$1200 before shipping and import duty, which would be applicable to an item of this value.

Apart from that I was impressed. Oh, and you will need their vacuum sander, unless you can rig up a similar system with your own ROS.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

I note that we have digressed a tad from Brett's stouch with the painter. Any developments there with regard to the landlord?

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

Any developments there with regard to the landlord?Hi Paul, yes the LL and father (the maintenance supervisor, being a mechanical engineer an' all) were up last Saturday to inspect the finished result, and discuss other matters (vege garden walls, fence, new shed, deck progress, et al).

I might point out that the construction job was, in the main, a very neat and efficient build. The clear polycarb roof is like it isn't there particularly when it's overcast, which is exactly the effect I wanted when I proposed the pergola. Harrr, Nursie (avatar) was sitting under it when it started to sprinkle a bit, and even though she wasn't getting wet, she thought she should be, and so she scarpered under the house. :U

One point that I don't think I've made clear, and which explains why I'm a little pedantic about the finish (as strange as that may seem :roll:) is because this house will be occupied by the current owner in retirement, about a decade away. Therefore it is clearly in her best interest to have things done properly, and not to the usual finish that some people think tenants/landlords should be satisfied with. I'm the coal face, you see. Another guy put the decking boards down (under said pergola) about 8 months ago, and that entire job was typical tenanted house standard - barely there. He screwed up the finishing too - put the oil on the decking boards when he could already hear the thunderstorm coming bigtime - and I pointed out as much - yup, oil splashed up all over the house and through the deck to stuff underneath. Had to come back to repaint the wall as a result - used the wrong paint (high gloss). :doh:

I should also make it clear that the guy doing the current job will be doing numerous future tasks/jobs here, and also that we have had a friendship going back about 2 years or so. Now I don't necessarily expect favours or "above and beyond" but I do expect the kind of workmanship that he boasts of ("why do you think I've got so much work" is something I hear around once a week). Particularly when he has my assistance on most jobs which saves him time and money (his two gods).

Anyhoo, when the LL and father were here I noted with not a little schadenfreude that the father said "I'd be prepared to pay for a superior paintjob in future". We had had prior communications about the finishing. One has to wonder if what the father was really saying was received.....

[bsrlee]

He is working in NSW, he MUST be licenced by the Builder's Licencing Board, both as a builder and as a painter. First get his licence number - it must be visible on his truck and/or invoices. No Licence - go straight to the Builder's Licencing Board & they will get their pound of flesh through the courts.

I suspect that the Board will only accept a complaint from the owner, but there is nothing stopping you from making initial enquires on her behalf. Then there is nothing stopping you from writing the complaint and preparing the supporting documentation such as photos - she can sign it at her leisure. You can also attach a signed statutory declaration as to your conversations with the painter, requests for rectification of unsatisfactory work, obsfucation and general stuffing around.

My father was a painter and I did a bit of work for him while I was at school - enough to let me know that painting was NOT the career for me. He would have been disgusted at that standard of work, and even with my limited knowledge of painting I can do a better job without trying too hard.