Solar panels ....... what are you experiences? What are the good ones?

[FenceFurniture]

Interested to hear from people who have reasonably recently installed solar panels.

Costs?
Savings?
Money back from the power company?

In particular what are the good brands/installers, and what are the pitfalls to watch out for?

I'm thinking that with the large shed extension I'll be doing I could put a skilliion roof on both parts of the shed which would naturally face north.

[fxst]

I have 2kv of solar panels on the roof. I think most panels are good regardless of brand, its the inverter that needs to be a good brand I have a sunnyboy and no complaints. I paid about 2k for them but not sure now. As to money back from the power co.... Meh..... I just want to reduce my costs and it works for me. I think if people just tried to reduce costs instead of trying to profit from them more would be able to afford their power as the costs may go down but my opinion only
Pete

[ajw]

Watching this thread with interest. I'd like to do the same..

ajw

[Sir Stinkalot]

Costs? = Getting cheaper to install as the various tariffs drop off. The price of the systems when the feed in tariffs were high (price the power company pays you for excess power fed into grid) were also high. As the feed in tariffs have reduced in their various steps the cost of the solar install also magically started to drop. I wonder where the extra money went.

Savings? = With the low feed in tariffs on offer now you don't really make much money selling back to the grid. Leaving battery storage aside for the moment the current recommendations seem to size your system to match your consumption whist the sun is shining. The best savings are made by moving your tasks (dishwasher, washing machine etc) to when you are generating your own power and avoid selling excess cheaply to the grid only to buy it back again at retail price when the sun is down. This may vary a little depending on your area and any off peak tariffs and the like.

Money back from the power company? = Getting less all the time. The minimum amount that the power companies need to offer to purchase your excess power is often up for review. Despite the comments that competition will keep the buy back high I have only seen it drop. Coupled with the drop they are paying for your power they seem to increase the daily supply charge so you need to pay more even if your using less power.

In particular what are the good brands/installers, and what are the pitfalls to watch out for? = You will get plenty of opinion on this and it would generally be grouped by what each person has. I have and SMA inverter and Canadian Solar panels (please note Canadian panels are made in China not Canada despite the name!). Personally I would go for a top of the range inverter (like SMA) and go middle of the range panels.

North facing is obviously good. Have a look at http://pvoutput.org/ and see if you can find some systems in your area. Typically they list the size, orientation and equipment so you can get an idea of what output you may expect.

With such a high uptake of residential solar, and power companies constantly looking at how they are going to claw back their profits, battery technology will be the next breakthrough. The prices will drop and the range will increase. This will then start to change the dynamics a little as the idea would be to generate enough power during the day to cover your night time use. This is likely to be at odds to the sizing your system just to cover your daytime use, but there is nothing stopping you adding a second system if need when adding batteries in the future. Whilst it would be good to wait until batteries are cheaper and do it all in one go there are still benefits jumping on now.

[Bob38S]

Have had panels on the roof for 5+ years now, got the good input return which has now been reduced to almost negligible.

System is 3.4kw as that was the largest the power company would allow us at the time, I wanted a 5kw. Unfortunately, the largest capacity panel at the time was 170w so we have 20 of them. The returns are certainly diminishing as the tariffs are constantly rising but it certainly has been worth it to us. Initially we had some nil bills but with the diminished difference between input returns and costs per kW and the various service charges we now get bills in the region of $70 to $100.

I believe hat Hitachi now has a 400w panel available but it is approximately the size of a front door, I would be looking in this direction should I be doing it now.

For us it has been worth it and the system has paid for itself. Under today's returns I would still do it again while fully understanding that it would take longer to pay for itself but then again the costs of panels etc have also reduced considerably.

If you are putting it on to make money, forget it, if you are putting it on to help reduce your current bills, then go for it.

[snowyskiesau]

Here's an interesting video analyzing the results of a solar panel installation over 18 months.
There's also a link to the installation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq0f6FXjyMk

[FenceFurniture]

Thanks for the replies chaps, very helpful indeed. I will check all those links in the morning.

In the meantime, the Tesla Powerwall has been recently released, which should become extreme news as it's developed and sold:
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/yKORsrlN-2k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I also saw a fascinating article in ABC news about Alum ion batteries being developed at Stanford - the implications could be staggering for anything that uses a rechargable battery:
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=194036

I'm thinking that Elon Musk should be all over this new Al Ion technology for his Powerwalls (and Tesla cars).

It's all a bit exciting, regardless of what the PM thinks.

[Wongo]

Mine is a sad story.

Long story short I had mine installed by a company called jnspjre solar (not actual name). 11 months later my bottom-of-the-range-super-cheap-chinese-made inverter died. No worries I will call the installer. I called and was told that the previous owner went bankrupt and the new owner is not responsible for my inverter. Many phone calls to different people later I ended up buying a SMA Sunnyboy inverter for $2,500. The system has costed me over $10,000 and produced < $1000 in nearly 4 years. F@@@ jnspjire solar and f%%% the government.

If you want to make money then forget it. If you want to save the planet like I did then go for it. Do make sure you get a good installer, do lots of homework and request for a good inverter for example SMA.

[Pearo]

Mine is a sad story.

Long story short I had mine installed by a company called jnspjre solar (not actual name). 11 months later my bottom-of-the-range-super-cheap-chinese-made inverter died. No worries I will call the installer. I called and was told that the previous owner went bankrupt and the new owner is not responsible for my inverter. Many phone calls to different people later I ended up buying a SMA Sunnyboy inverter for $2,500. The system has costed me over $10,000 and produced < $1000 in nearly 4 years. F@@@ jnspjire solar and f%%% the government.

If you want to make money then forget it. If you want to save the planet like I did then go for it. Do make sure you get a good installer, do lots of homework and request for a good inverter for example SMA.


How much has it saved you in electricity costs??

The trick now that the feed in tariffs have been reduced, is to size the system according to your power usage.

[Wongo]

As I stated I saved around $1,000 off my electricity bills in 4 years. We feed the electricity back to the grid at around 26c per kw.

[george mavridis]

As I stated I saved around $1,000 off my electricity bills in 4 years. We feed the electricity back to the grid at around 26c per kw.

So if you saved 1000 in 4 years and it's cost you 10,000 it will take 40 years just to recoup your investment

[Wongo]

Pretty much. I do not for a minute believe that bastard on my roof would last 40 years. If it breaks again then I will write it off.

Like I said I went into this with a "good heart" and money wasn't my no. 1 concern.

[nrb]

We installed 20 panels late 2011 and get 6 cents(retailer) plus 60 cents/kWh (Gov.) until 2024
With credits and not paying or power we have recovered all of our installation costs of around $10700.
Today it seems that systems are about 60% of what we paid but the feed in rate is very low,could still be a saving.

[chrisb691]

I am on the premium feedin tariff, and my 2 kw system has saved me 66% since Nov 2011. However, I have a salt pool which eats power daily. My daughter had the same system installed the same time as me, and is currently about $1,200 in credit. She has never paid a bill since the system was installed. These days though, the feedin tariffs are pathetic, so you can't get the same results.

Where we want to feedin as much as possible of solar generation (because it is worth .66 /kwh), you will want to use as much of the solar generation as you can.

To get tariffs out of the equation, here are the production figures for my system. As I am in Melbourne, you may generate differently. If you are going for a bigger system, you should be able to scale my outputs up, to get approximate figures.

[Poppa]

When I installed my shed I made sure that I had half the roof facing north at a 30 degree elevation (the correct tilt for our area). Haven't installed solar yet, but that is the intention, so I'll be watching this thread with interest. I can recommend the Whirlpool forum for discussion about solar, there are a lot of discussions and information about solar on that site. Some very useful information.

We are also intending installing solar power on the roof of our business, which only uses power during the day. I will be calculating how much Kw we need over the next couple of months, and we are looking at doing the business and our home early in 2016. I would estimate 10Kw for the business (without having done the sums yet) and I want 5-6Kw for our home (we have 3 young kids and then there is my workshop). And I will be following the Tesla power wall and similar solutions carefully over the next few years, as I think a battery solution for after hours use is a very good idea. But I think the cost will be too high initially (for me anyway). I also think we are at the start of what will be a battery revolution over the next 10-20 years. There have been very few major improvements to battery technology in the past 50+ years. Li-Ion was a step forward, but more of a progression than a revolution. With the Al Ion research and the Tesla launch, plus rising power costs, I think this is going to be a big growth area for the foreseeable future.

[FenceFurniture]

With the Al Ion research and the Tesla launch, plus rising power costs, I think this is going to be a big growth area for the foreseeable future.Yes, absolutely. I kinda think Mike Baird is selling the poles and wires at the right time actually. Baseload supply from renewables might be a considerably into the future, but power to homes and small business will drop away to self sufficiency at a pretty fair pace I'd say. That would mean that the poles and wires would have an ever decreasing return, also at a pretty fair pace. The poles and wires will not only be worth substantially less in 10 years or so, they may not even be saleable.

As a photographer, I can't wait for poles and wires to bugger off. :D

[Big Shed]

Could we keep this thread on topic please.:roll:

[Bob38S]

I had the experience, which I stated in another thread with regards being off grid with water as we had been on tanks for 20+ years. When a developer opened up a section down the road, part of which meant that town water went past my boundary I had to pay the council water fee as "they had provided it and even if I chose not to use it I still had to pay the council's fee".

When, rather than if people go off grid electricity wise I am sure the same method will be used to prop up the system.

[Handyjack]

I had panels installed 2.5 years ago. Main reason for installation was to reduce energy bill which it has done by about $100 a quarter. (Average daily use is 13kwh. Amount produces various from about 2 - 16 kwh a day).
I insisted that company did a physical site inspection before quote. There were a couple of reason for this, one to make sure my switch board was suitable and secondly to make sure the roof and location on the roof was suitable. Some companies will just use a satellite image and then say you need to pay extra for something not seen or your switch board is not suitable and will need replacing. (A friend of mine had installers rock up and say they did not have the right clips for his roof and it would cost extra. He ended up using the same company as me and we both got a small discount.) The only difference between quote and job was the inverter was installed on north facing wall instead of inside the garage.
So far I have not had problems.

My parents have had to replace their inverter.

Somebody I know was having solar installed and the installers went through poly-carbonate panels on back porch and I think also damaged another area of roofing allowing water into the house.

Hope this has been helpful.

[FenceFurniture]

Something that I thought of last night, that sounds viable (not necessarily desirable), is that it could also bring 110v into play for USA sourced power tools. The right inverter would have to be sourced from the USA and imported (should be easy enough). I imagine a solar panel is a solar panel and that it's the inverter that does the voltage work (research would be required for going down that path). Could be a neat solution for those that want to indulge in 110v tools.

[malb]

Something that I thought of last night, that sounds viable (not necessarily desirable), is that it could also bring 110v into play for USA sourced power tools. The right inverter would have to be sourced from the USA and imported (should be easy enough). I imagine a solar panel is a solar panel and that it's the inverter that does the voltage work (research would be required for going down that path). Could be a neat solution for those that want to indulge in 110v tools.

It might work for an off grid system with batteries etc, but won't for a conventional grid connect system of panels and inverter because the inverter would needs access to 110V 60Hz mains to sync to and match voltage with, and to carry away excess power when production exceeds consumption. If the mains sync source is not present, or the voltage or frequency are outside tight limits, the inverter simply shuts down and does nothing. Grid connects always generate as much power as possible from the panel output and inverter efficiency, but need buffering via the grid to absorb excess production, or make up for insufficient production.

For an off grid system or a hybrid system (composite of off grid and grid connect), it would be viable to add a 110V 60 Hz offf grid inverter, but a viable system for 240V 50Hz with 3 days backup capacity for a moderate user is in the order of $30,000 installed, $15K's worth of batteries and $15K's worth of panels, and integrated charge controller/monitoring/inverter. Then you add your back up system, (off peak mains or generator). The issue of adding an extra inverter for say 3KW of 110V 60Hz is that it would be bypassing the monitoring system so the integrated hybrid would not know how much power it had consumed from the batteries and might badly misreport the battery state and cause an unexpected DC low voltage cuttoff .

[FenceFurniture]

Ok, just as well I'm not particularly interested in 110v tools then.:U

[Greg Ward]

I've been in the battery industry all my life.
There was an electric vehicle association in 1978. I was a member and slept through many a meeting. I remember the Lucas electric vans and electric vehicle conversions for a time were popular......Nearly 40 years on.... we are still waiting for a viable full electric vehicle battery (and vehicle) of reasonable cost.

Lead acid batteries are over 100 years old and still the only cost effective battery, all cars use them for starting, they are great with electric forks as you need counter weight and they don't give off dangerous gases indoors and they are a reasonable means of storing solar power.
Hybrids are not electric vehicles
Ni Cad? sure but expensive
if you wait for the 'tesla' or another couple to provide a viable means of storing solar power...... don't hold your breath. You can't change basic chemistry and rare mineral batteries or exotic couples are just not there.
Will they be? Again......give it another 40 years..... maybe.
Greg

[AlexS]

I remember the Lucas electric vans and electric vehicle conversions Ah yes, Lucas, Prince of Darkness.

Greg, do you reckon there are likely to be advances in battery management technology rather than batteries in the medium term? It seems to me that one without the other is likely to be pretty useless.

[FenceFurniture]

If you wait for the 'tesla' or another couple to provide a viable means of storing solar power...... don't hold your breath. You can't change basic chemistry and rare mineral batteries or exotic couples are just not there. Will they be? Again......give it another 40 years..... maybe.
GregGreg, that's quite at odds with what Musk claims in his launch. Have you watched that presentation? He is basically claiming that the 100 year "Age of lead acid" is over now.

Make no mistake, I understand the limitations of Li ion, but if they don't have the nasty self obsolescence built into them, surely they go more or less as long as lead acids i.e. maybe three years or something). It's the implications of the Alum ion with 1000x projected cycle times over Li ion in conjunction with the powerwall (or similar) that sounds extremely promising. Obviously very early days yet, but at least the development is in the USA where it will not struggle to get funding and therefore decent momentum.

I see new houses being built with them as part of the internal walls.

[Big Shed]

Can't remember how long it took for LiFePO4 batteries to become a commercial reality but it was a long time.

Even now they are still regarded as "new technology" but are slowly getting traction in the market place. Price is still a barrier, a 100ah 4 cell LiFePO4 costs about $700, a 100AH AGM bit under half that.

I would suggest that Alum Ion has at least 10-20 years before it will be commercially available.

I found this bit of info in the Wikipedia article also telling

Challenges Aluminium-ion batteries have a relatively short shelf life (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelf_life). The combination of heat, rate of charge, and cycling can dramatically decrease energy capacity. When metal ion batteries are fully discharged, they can no longer be recharged. Ionic electrolyte materials are expensive. Like most batteries, they have a far lower energy density (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density) than gasoline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline).[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery#cite_note-ExtremeTech-11)

[FenceFurniture]

Well that may just mean we're stuck with Li ion while they develop through the challenges, or find something else more suitable. The point being that Tesla are deadly serious about their Powerwalls, with a new dedicated factory and all, and battery technology is definitely on the march. They claim putting enough together will give 3 phase (albeit USA 220v) so they must be onto something.

[Greg Ward]

Alex, not really up to date here on management for new couples, but battery management is pretty basic electronic technology that has been around for many many years, discharge testing for capacity, charge cutoff and on voltage etc. and inverters etc are pretty good..... a good brand I think is the secret.

The problem with solar charging and lead acid batteries for power storage in a stand alone home system is that batteries are generally run in a semi discharged state, leading to sulphation.
To maximise life, batteries require an equalising or gassing charge (if wet cell deep cycle or traction type) on a regular basis (suggest each 3 months).

People like SLA batteries as they have no 'free' acid, they are great for boats but in static locations, wet cell batteries will perform just as well as SLA, with equal or greater life and a 100AH battery should be only $250-300+- or so

Regarding the 'factory' to produce new types of batteries..... there are hundreds (perhaps thousands) of battery factories around the world. There is nothing yet available that is a cost effective replacement for lead acid.

There is a limit to rare metals (NSW University has/had been working on a vanadium battery for years, but how much vanadium is there available? Lithium is finite and and rare earths metals for electric motors are limiting factors. Lead is common and lead acid batteries are over 90% recyclable. (I admit there is plenty of aluminium).

A new battery technology to somehow take over the world? (I've already seen one new world battery failure with a sodium sulphur factory in the UK in the 1990's, that never got off the ground as it was not a cost effective alternative); battery costs for new couples will certainly reduce, but whether they can finally match lead acid in cost and be produced in sufficient quantity to do so will be interesting to see
But on my demise (hopefully not for a few years yet), I think I will see that most new cars will remain IC (diesel perhaps) and start with lead acid batteries, that electric cars will remain a high cost alternative and that there will be no new battery couples in household solar applications of any consequence.
Greg

[Evanism]

There was this article: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/stanford-researchers-unveil-new-ultrafast-charging-aluminum-ion-battery/

Given the cheapness of AlIon, they could build monster reserve battery packs. Good by "baseload" coal burning devils!

[Chris Parks]

Tesla's new battery centre in the US will be a game changer.

[FenceFurniture]

Tesla's new battery centre in the US will be a game changer.As for using more power to make them than they generate - guess how the factory is powered.......

That doesn't account for the power used by any 3rd party component suppliers, but...

[Chris Parks]

How are the panels going to work covered in snow?:C:o:D

[FenceFurniture]

How are the panels going to work covered in snow?:C:o:DThey know someone who can sell them cheap batteries. :D

Yeah, fair point, and no industrial application is going to be able to rely totally on batteries.

[FenceFurniture]

There was this article: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/stanford-researchers-unveil-new-ultrafast-charging-aluminum-ion-battery/

Given the cheapness of AlIon, they could build monster reserve battery packs. Good by "baseload" coal burning devils!The important part of that article was the last two paras:

Thus, you shouldn’t expect to be using Stanford’s aluminum-ion battery in your smartphone, tablet, or electric vehicle anytime soon. While the battery might allow you to charge your smartphone or electric vehicle in under a minute, it would significantly increase the weight of your phone or vehicle.

However, there is a chance you will see the aluminum-ion battery deployed on the grid one day. One application that might be a perfect fit for Stanford’s aluminum-ion battery is providing balancing and reserve power to the electric grid in order to maintain the balance between total electricity supply and total electric demand. This application requires high-power batteries with the capability to charge and discharge many times without failing. If Stanford’s aluminum-ion battery can be constructed at a sufficiently low cost in the future, it might be used to provide this service on the grid.

[Seymore Butts]

5.72kw system. Sunnyboy Inverter and Jinko 260w Panels. This is pretty much the best on the market at the moment.

With Origin at the minute and they give us a whopping 5.3cent feed in tariff. I wanted to thank them personally but thought against it on the grounds I may be arrested.

[Bob38S]

5.72kw system. Sunnyboy Inverter and Jinko 260w Panels. This is pretty much the best on the market at the moment. With Origin at the minute and they give us a whopping 5.3cent feed in tariff. I wanted to thank them personally but thought against it on the grounds I may be arrested.

I don't know about being arrested, but seeing you are so "happy" they may consider reversing the digits to 3.5 cents to make you even happier. :C

[Sebastiaan56]

We used Blue Mountains Solar and I would recommend them. I dont have our specs to hand but it has well and truly paid for itself. Like others Im waiting for the batteries to become widely available and then we will get off the grid for good.