Water divining

[elanjacobs]

Just playing devil's advocate here. I don't have an opinion one way or the other about one's ability to find water as it has no direct impact on my life at the moment.


"Such a vast amount of empirical data that has been gathered under scientific conditions is hard to deny."

Click (http://www.spiritoday.com/telekinesis-psychokinesis/)


Must be true, there is scientific data to prove it. http://d1r5wj36adg1sk.cloudfront.net/images/smilies/standard/rolleyes.gif
(http://www.spiritoday.com/telekinesis-psychokinesis/)

Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics)

Your psycho-kinesis link (aside from being on a site called "Spirit Today" which, I'm sure, is a respectable scientific authority) references a study that has been thoroughly dismantled by the scientific community.

Which side are you playing devil's advocate for?

[Master Splinter]

To quote from the first sentence of that Wikipeida link:

"Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is a phrase describing the persuasive power of numbers, particularly the use of statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics) to bolster weak arguments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument)."

Well, there's certainly no weak argument on the side of 'no such thing as dowsing'. The data is in; 100 years of tests, different methodologies, different groups and different experimenters. It doesn't exist.

Way stranger theories have been found to have powerful predictive power or to be an evidence backed explanation of the observable universe (quantum mechanics, continental drift, Cretaceous/Tertiary extinction event, big bang...), but not dowsing.

On the other hand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

[kiwigeo]

The doubters say but there is water everywhere. Not so. If it were so, any well, anywhere, would be productive.


A few comments:

1. Anywhere there is rock or unconsolidated strata that has porosity then it is rare for water not to be present.
2. The absence of a water flow from a well doesn't automatically mean there is no water present.....there may be insufficient permeability within the rock to enable the water to flow into the bore. An analogous situation in the oi land gas game is where a well has to be stimulated (fracked) to get hydrocarbons to flow from the formation into the wellbore.

[rustynail]

Can you elaborate on what you think are flaws in the testing?
Also, in the majority of the tests, the diviners did NOT return to the same location twice.
As mentioned in previous posts, the disturbance of surface can be an issue. Water in plastic is also difficult.
There are many factors that can be detrimental to accurate assessment. These factors will also play a part in relocation difficulty.



Animals can also find north. And water (but usually at depths that are easy to dig to manually, not meters underground).

Some people innately know where north is (and they don't need to hold a stick and wait for it to show them where it is), this could be a remnant of a primal ability that many people have lost. The same could be said for the ability to find water. BUT, I refuse to believe that the use of sticks, wires or anything else has any effect.

The sub-concious mind is very powerful and you can fool yourself into believing a lot of things. If someone IS able to detect water through some remnant of a primitive ability then they should know where to dig instinctively, WITHOUT the need for sticks or wires. If they believe that the sticks help, the brain can make your hands twitch sub-consciously to 'notify' the concious mind. The sticks aren't telling you where the water is, they're the way the sub-concious mind (instinct) is made concious.
There is one problem with that theory; I would prefer to fail. That would discredit what I have experienced to date. So far no such luck.
Again, until someone rocks up with credible, peer-reviewed evidence for its existence, dowsing is, at best, pseudo-science and must be treated as such.
I dont feel the need to place things in categories. I dont feel the need to justify nor dispute. When I fail, Ill stop.

[kiwigeo]

This thread reminds me of a character in New Zealand by the name of Ken Ring who maintains he can predict earthquakes by examining the phase of the moon and distance (apogee/perigee) between the earth and it's satellite. His predictions never mention a specific date or a specific location...just a +/- 1-2 week period and a general area.

He appears to be onto something until you look at a few facts:

1. In an average year New Zealand experiences over 10,000 quakes.
2. I can predict that The Canterbury/Marlborough area will experience an earthquake within the next week and have a 90% chance of being correct. Im not looking at phases of the moon or any other phenomenon....I'm just making a pure guess.

[Dareen]

I dont feel the need to place things in categories. I dont feel the need to justify nor dispute. When I fail, Ill stop.

My feelings too, rustynail. With so many believers there must be something there.

[kiwigeo]

My feelings too, rustynail. With so many believers there must be something there.

If you apply your logic then Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy _must_ be true.

[rustynail]

My feelings too, rustynail. With so many believers there must be something there.
I think we would be in the minority rather than the majority.
The need for proof is reasonable.
The fact that so many have failed is justification enough for doubt.
The fact that tests conducted have been less than conducive also justify skepticism
The one thing that does make the difference between diviners and non diviners is success. What ever the reasons for that success may be, it remains a success.
If and when you fail and there is no justification for that failure, you must question your ability.

[dinosour]

Not sure about the water but I often use the technique to find underground power lines. Haven't missed one yet.

[AlexS]

Haven't missed one yet.I'd have thought the aim was to miss them.:D