Free energy, smoke and mirrors or BS?

[neksmerj]

Surely this is bull poo! My son showed me a video on YouTube of a bloke lighting up a light globe.

He had disc magnets attached to the blades of a 12V computer fan, and when an external magnet was introduced, the fan spun lighting up a globe.

If this is fair dinkum, why isn't it done on a larger scale. Imagine powering your workshop for nix.

I've got a fan, all I need is some magnets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiAhiu6UqXQ

Anyone had a go at this?

Ken

[KBs PensNmore]

Probably not done on a commercial scale, because of the prohibitive cost, size of magnets, generators etc.
The size of the magnets would probably upset the earth's magnetic poles, compasses etc.
Kryn

[mark david]

Quite fascinating, obviously works as the magnets repell each other.
Wouldnt scale up to large scale electricity generation though.

[jhovel]

Scam. Either the globe or the fan contain a battery to light the globe.
It is however possible to make a fan spin with magnets on the blades that have all their poles (North or South) facing one way and repel them with another magnet facing it's same pole towards these fan magnets.
It's when you try to extract energy beyond the repelling force minus the friction losses in the bearings that the whole thing just stops.
The bottom line is still E=mc2
You get no energy from nothing. To work, the magnets would have to slowly disappear in the process (which they don't). That would be the mass (m) reducing.
The closest we get so far is nuclear fission, where we can extract masses of energy packed into small amounts of Uranium - which slowly disappears in the process (or rather deteriorates to other elements with lower energy density and mass).
Fusion will be a different thing and when it is possible to make it work on a useful scale under control - without releasing all the potential energy all at once like the hydrogen bomb.
It would produce energy without any leftovers by just feeding in the fusion materials (molecules smaller/lighter than nickel)....

In the meantime, there seems to be a large group of people with inappropriate physics education who fervently believe that technologies exist to do that today but are surpressed by the "energy producing industry or powers". The video you were shown is one such example of people who want to prove to even more people that this conspiracy theory is true but can be undermined.
Believe it or not..... :doh:

[bob ward]

Free energy = smoke and mirrors and BS. Always!

[snowyskiesau]

It's not done because it's not possible.
There's a battery somewhere.

[doug3030]

What is being shown in the video is kind of possible but not practical.

The fan is powered by an electric motor. An electric motor can be used as a generator by turning the motor by mechanical means. A motor consists of magnets and electrical coils that create electro-magnets when electric current is applied. If an electrical current is applied to the electro-magnets and the motor shaft is turned mechanically, the magnets in the motor induce a current into the electrical coils that make the electromagnets.

In the video they are turning the motor in the fan by effectively creating a bigger stronger motor out of rare earth magnets on the blades and also one fixed magnet to provide the repelling force to turn the fan. So what we have is an electric motor turning another less efficient, weaker electric motor to make it act as a generator.

This would definitely produce electricity. However, I do not believe that a generator as small as the motor in the fan would be able to produce enough to light the globe. Light globes are becoming more and more efficient, particularly with LED technology (I replaced 50w halogen downlights with 5w LED downlights about 6 months ago for the same brightness, so the improvements in technology are real) but it may be a long time until we can find a light source efficient enough to run for free on a computer fan and a handful of rare earth magnets.

Until this is achieved, let the U-tubers play. They are inspiring others to experiment and discover.

Cheers

Doug

[.RC.]

Scam. Either the globe or the fan contain a battery to light the globe.


I dunno, I think it is just a really low micro wattage LED bulb and the energy extracted is just really really tiny, notice how he does not start the fan with the light attached...

It might produce a few millionth's of a watt... But you can get some really low power LED's these days....

Thing about engines like this, is you have the magnets pushing away on both sides, so while it is repelling the outgoing magnet, it is also repelling the incoming one..

To make one the size of powering a house, might need to be the size of a planet...

[snowyskiesau]

For opinions on this magic device, take a look at this thread (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/angry-at-free-energy-youtubers/) over at eevblog.com. Majority of posters there are electrical/electronic engineers and don't take kindly to pseudo scientific BS. :)

EDIT: My apologies for the link above. I've just checked it again and it has degenerated into a thread about religion - a common occurrence on a site with no active moderators :rolleyes:

[NCArcher]

Of course it's not possible.
It's not even a real bulb. It's a novelty thing made of plastic. You are supposed to activate it with a ring on your finger making contact between the base and metal side of the bulb.
The wires from the fan are merely twisted together. You'll notice he only ever touches the wires to the globe while the fan is spinning. The bulb would still light even if the fan was stopped.

[simonl]

I must admit I have only glossed over the replies from people here who say it can be done but short answer is it can't be done. Energy can nether be created not destroyed, only transferred. Nuclear energy from fission exploits the nuclear binding energy within the nucleus of the atom by breaking down large atoms into smaller ones. Magnets are not an energy source. You can create as much smoke and mirrors as you like with motors and magnets driving other motors etc but the net energy coming out is no more than what you put in minus any losses from friction. Agree with Joe, Fusion is the goe, once they work out how to harness it for things other than blowing eachother up! Simon

[cba_melbourne]

just another "perpetuum mobile".... presented by another magician.....

[.RC.]

Magnets are not an energy source.

Would they be a potential energy source.... Like if I was in a plane and jumped out I would have gravational potential energy I would be losing as I fall...

I am wanting to know if the fan spinning is actually real, or is it the movement of the magnet in the hand to repel the first magnet, which gets the fan spinning which does all the work, then from then on the fan is actually losing speed and only spinning through inertia.. Sort of like a flywheel...

[doug3030]

I must admit I have only glossed over the replies from people here who say it can be done but short answer is it can't be done.

So without reading the replies that say it can be done how can you contradict them with any authority?

[KBs PensNmore]

I failed all subjects at school except wagging, so I can't comment on the physicians side of things.
Kryn

[Master Splinter]

It's essentially a version of the Taisnierus Magnetic Engine (invented by Johannes Taisnierus "...continuall motion by the stone Magnes..." in the early 1500's). Even with 500 years worth of research time, it still doesn't work.

In this case frictional losses eventually cause the rotor to stop spinning and stick in one position; the energy required to reset it into a configuration where it spins again is...guess what...greater than the energy it can produce for the period of time when it is spinning. And once you start drawing current from the motor, the rotational speed starts to decrease faster as you have greater losses of energy from the system.

[cba_melbourne]

So without reading the replies that say it can be done how can you contradict them with any authority?

Noone has ever come up with a perpetuum mobile. It does not exist.

In the case of this video, I bet there is a motor under the table that spins a magnet around. The magician turns it on and off with a footswitch. This field causes the fan blade to rotate, not the handheld magnet. Ant the Led globe has a battery built in.

[cba_melbourne]

So without reading the replies that say it can be done how can you contradict them with any authority?<br>
<br>Noone has ever come up with a perpetuum mobile. It does not exist.<br><br>In the case of this video, I bet there is a motor under the table that spins a magnet around. The magician turns it on and off with a footswitch. This field causes the fan blade to rotate, not the handheld magnet. Ant the Led globe has a battery built in.

[eskimo]

YouTube not only has smoke n mirrors clips but also has vids that show how its done https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I3Ly5mBhT4

[Chesand]

Energy can nether be created not destroyed, only transferred. Simon
I agree.
We were taught that energy can only be converted from one form to another.
That was nearly 60 years ago now but Physics may well have changed over that time :D

[RayG]

Here's how the hoax works.. hidden batteries and a reed switch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I3Ly5mBhT4#t=12

I'm curious as to why anyone would bother to go to all the trouble to fake something, he's not selling anything that I could see, maybe he gets some monetization from youtube?

Ray

PS... Whoops already Eskimo beat me to it... I think this is the guy "Roman Richter" http://vk.com/wasabysajado Slovakian? or Russian?

[bsrlee]

Yes, people do get a small amount from YouTube for everyone who watches their video. So by getting everyone to take a look at the fraudster's video you help him get paid as well as YouTube getting paid for all the banner ads that pop up on the page. Lots of dead electrons there.

[simonl]

I didn't know that you got money for people to your you tube videos!

Welll I'm glad to say I didn't even look at this one as I didn't need to. I knew it must be a load of rubbish without looking it. Would it be analogous to setting up an electric motor to then run a generator that then runs the electric motor?

While two magnets separated by a distance "x" from eachother will have some potential energy stored in that system, once that are brought together and that PE is then harnessed and converted into electrical energy, they are then stuck together or remain at the same distance apart until energy iis brought into the system to remove them apart again. The energy to separate the two magnets would be the same that was "gained" by letting them come together.

No different to an object of mass M being suspended from a rope of height H above the ground. The potential energy stored in the system will be MgxH but once you use or convert that energy by allowing the mass to become closer to the ground, the energy is converted. It's a once off gain of energy. Well actually it's not because the same amount of energy must have been used at some time to get the mass at height H in the first place. Unless of course the mass is actually a tree branch that has been cut off. Then the PE has been gained from solar energy from the sun by the trees growth.

Even tidal energy comes at "some cost" it's not free. The PE from the distance of the earth to the moon from their gravitational field was established billions of years ago in the formation of the sloar system. The harnessing of tidal power by creating a restriction of the water movement by means of a turbine to produce power is not free. It has the effect of bringing the moon and earth just that tiny bit closer to each other.

Nothing ain't worth nothing, but it's free…...

Edit: from the nanosecond that the big bang took place (if you believe that stuff) the amount of energy contained in the universe has remained a constant. Every single joule can be accounted for.

Simon

[Stustoys]

I'm curious as to why anyone would bother to go to all the trouble to fake something, he's not selling anything that I could see, maybe he gets some monetization from youtube?
For fun. some of these machines are pretty clever(though it would seem this one is not). Some take some head scratching to say why they wont work(other the the big one of course lol). One of my favorites is a modified Heron's Fountain in the second half of this video, which can work* without a hidden pump........ but how? of course you must add energy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv9JrnnZkLA


.
It has the effect of bringing the moon and earth just that tiny bit closer to each other.

ummm If by that you mean "the moon wont be moving away from us as fast" then Yes ;)

Stuart

*for a short time, I'm not saying its perpetual motion.... but it will look like it

[snowyskiesau]

Edit: from the nanosecond that the big bang took place (if you believe that stuff) the amount of energy contained in the universe has remained a constant. Every single joule can be accounted for.

Simon

Judging by my last bill, they're mostly going through my electricity meter ...

[RayG]

Judging by my last bill, they're mostly going through my electricity meter ...

I have that problem, and I meticulously give them back every single electron they send me. :D

The free energy crowd are big on zero-point energy and dark energy, there's enough unknown stuff around the edges to provide a place for scammers to eke out a living.

Ray

[simonl]

For fun. some of these machines are pretty clever(though it would seem this one is not). Some take some head scratching to say why they wont work(other the the big one of course lol). One of my favorites is a modified Heron's Fountain in the second half of this video, which can work* without a hidden pump........ but how? of course you must add energy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv9JrnnZkLA


ummm If by that you mean "the moon wont be moving away from us as fast" then Yes ;)

Stuart

*for a short time, I'm not saying its perpetual motion.... but it will look like it

Yes, I should have just said that it influences the moons distance from the earth. I didn't realise that the moon was actually moving away from the earth at a rate of 3.8cm per year! :doh: Enough tidal power might bring it back!

[simonl]

I have that problem, and I meticulously give them back every single electron they send me. :D

The free energy crowd are big on zero-point energy and dark energy, there's enough unknown stuff around the edges to provide a place for scammers to eke out a living.

Ray

I know! They don't sell us power, they hire out electrons!

Simon

[BobL]

I have that problem, and I meticulously give them back every single electron they send me. :D

The drift speed of free electrons in copper carrying about 10A is <mm/sec.
That means at 50Hz AC the electrons are moving at most<20 microns one way and then <20 microns the other.
In effect the electrons move 3/5ths of FA.

[Oldneweng]

What it means is we are paying for the freight cost to shuffle them back and forth. They must be heavy.:D

Dean

[BobL]

What it means is we are paying for the freight cost to shuffle them back and forth. They must be heavy.:D

Dean

Not really but there's a lot of them.

[doug3030]

The drift speed of free electrons in copper carrying about 10A is <mm/sec.
That means at 50Hz AC the electrons are moving at most<20 microns one way and then <20 microns the other.
In effect the electrons move 3/5ths of FA.

Then how come nothing happens when I give the extension cord a good shake? Surely you should get heaps of power cos the electrons move a lot more than 20 microns then.

All this time I have been thinking I got value for my money because of all the electrons that I was using up and now I find out that I have been paying out good money and after all these years I basically have just the same electrons I started with. What a ripoff. Someone should demand a royal commission into this government scam.

Doug :U

[BobL]

Then how come nothing happens when I give the extension cord a good shake? Surely you should get heaps of power cos the electrons move a lot more than 20 microns then.

It's a Common misconception that the movement of electrons in a wire is the flow electricity whereas this is really an effect of applying an electrical potential to conductor.

There's no difference between the AC coming down the power lines and a broadcast electromagnetic signal coning out of a radio station aerial. At the radio receiver aerial the signal joggles the electrons back and forth and this is demodulated and amplified and converted to sound. There are no wires between the two aerials hence there is no way for electron transfer but energy has still travelled from the transmitter to the receiver.

The 50Hz AC electromagnetic wave that passes through or more like around a conductor does the same thing and just causes the electrons to move back and forth do they can be made to do useful work like heat water or move a coil in a magnetic field.

If you pick up an extension cord and shake it you're not make any electromagnetic waves in the wire so the electrons will not move.

This is not strictly correct because the extension cord wire may move through the earth's magnetic field and this can generate a few mV across the ends of an extension cord.
Because the earths magnetic field is so weak, to get Volts you would need to shake it very fast and it would be an extremely inefficient way to generate electricity.

Wireless electricity transmission is old technology. small cordless battery chargers like those used for mobiles is a current example that are designed for the phones to sit on top of the charger, but cordless 1000Hz AC transmitters that sit in the ceiling of every room in a house have been developed that can power most small electrical appliances wirelessly. These have not been implemented because they are still efficient and no one knows what they would do to humans in the long term.

[.RC.]

There's no difference between the AC coming down the power lines and a broadcast electromagnetic signal coning out of a radio station aerial. At the radio receiver aerial the signal joggles the electrons back and forth and this is demodulated and amplified and converted to sound. There are no wires between the two aerials hence there is no way for electron transfer but energy has still travelled from the transmitter to the receiver.



I guess that is proven by a crystal radio set...

However where does the magic smoke come into it all? We know the magic smoke makes stuff work, as I have often seen the magic smoke come out and things no longer werk... :D

[Oldneweng]

I guess that is proven by a crystal radio set...

However where does the magic smoke come into it all? We know the magic smoke makes stuff work, as I have often seen the magic smoke come out and things no longer werk... :D

The magic smoke only comes out when stuff stops werking. I suspect that there is an energy change occurring deep inside and the energy that normally makes stuff werk is converted into magic smoke which is why it no longer werks. No more werk energy. Only magic smoke.

Dean

[Master Splinter]

The magic smoke is actually the lubricant in the copper that lets the electrons move. Once it escapes, like an engine without oil, everything seizes up and stops moving.

[Oldneweng]

The magic smoke is actually the lubricant in the copper that lets the electrons move. Once it escapes, like an engine without oil, everything seizes up and stops moving.

Ahh. No lube, lots of friction and you get heat. So that explains that aspect. What effect does the oxygen (or lack of) in the copper, have in this situation?

Maybe we should not go there. There be dragons.:C

Dean

[.RC.]

There's no difference between the AC coming down the power lines and a broadcast electromagnetic signal coning out of a radio station aerial. At the radio receiver aerial the signal joggles the electrons back and forth and this is demodulated and amplified and converted to sound. There are no wires between the two aerials hence there is no way for electron transfer but energy has still travelled from the transmitter to the receiver.



Never actually thought of it that way.... Now I wonder if I can create a device that could collect some of this electromagnetic energy and convert it back to electricity... If light is the same electromagnetic energy then maybe create a device to convert light into electricity, I might be on a winner here and fortune awaits...

[eskimo]

then maybe create a device to convert light into electricity, I might be on a winner here and fortune awaits...

your a tad late RC..i think they call them solar panels

[simonl]

your a tad late RC..i think they call them solar panels

With all the work that Einstein did, his only nobel prize was for his paper on the photoelectric effect. No one believed his other theories!

Simon

[Oldneweng]

With all the work that Einstein did, his only nobel prize was for his paper on the photoelectric effect. No one believed his other theories!

Simon

If you can't even match a pair of socks can you blame other people for not having much faith in you?

Dean

[Master Splinter]

What effect does the oxygen (or lack of) in the copper, have in this situation?


The less oxygen in your copper, the less opportunity you have for a fire to start in the copper when the electrons run out of lubricating smoke and come to a sudden stop (the friction creates heat). That's why most copper is sold as de-oxidised copper or oxygen-free copper - to meet fire regulations.