Beeswax and raw linseed oil

[Gestalt]

Hi Guys, I've just finished laminating up a rather long kitchen bench top. Material is local eucalypt. Just wondering about the pros and cons of making up a mixture of beeswax and raw linseed oil. Is this a common mix? I've just applied a coat of straight linseed oil which has brought it up quite nicely. Tried buying a copy of Neil's book on finishing, but still not available.

[BobL]

Linseed oil and beeswax is a well known combo but a much more common method is to use linseed and then apply a beeswax over the top.

Also common is linseed oil/beeswax/turps. This is what I did our bedhead in.

Look on the web and you will lots of recipes with proportions.

[Kidbee]

Below is a beeswax recipe from a firm that sold eucalypt furniture and burl bowls at the famous Eumundi Markets on the Sunshine Coast:

1/2 kg beeswax (melted)

3 litres of gum turpentine

12 tablespoons of pale boiled linseed oil.

The gum turpentine makes the mixture smell wonderful and it appeals to the senses.

[ian]

not wishing to discourage you ...

From the MSDS GUM TURPENTINE http://msds.orica.com/pdf/shess-en-cds-010-000000032832.pdf


Safety Phrases: Do not breathe vapour. Avoid contact with skin and eyes. In case of contact with eyes,rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek medical advice. Wear suitableprotective clothing, gloves and eye/face protection. Use only in well ventilated areas.Avoid release to the environment. Refer to special instructions safety data sheets. Ifswallowed, do not induce vomiting; seek medical advice immediately and show thiscontainer or label.

Skin Contact:If skin or hair contact occurs, immediately remove any contaminated clothing and wash skin and hair thoroughly with runningwater and soap. If swelling, redness, blistering or irritation occurs seek medical assistance. This material can be absorbedthrough the skin with resultant toxic effects. Seek immediate medical assistance.


so in addition to the right PPE I'd recommend an on-site emergency back-up person, who can drag you out of harms way and dial 000 should you have a problem

[Bob38S]

Raw linseed oil or boiled linseed oil?

[Kidbee]

not wishing to discourage you ...

From the MSDS GUM TURPENTINE http://msds.orica.com/pdf/shess-en-cds-010-000000032832.pdf
Safety Phrases: Do not breathe vapour. Avoid contact with skin and eyes. In case of contact with eyes,rinse immediately with plenty of water and seek medical advice. Wear suitableprotective clothing, gloves and eye/face protection. Use only in well ventilated areas.Avoid release to the environment. Refer to special instructions safety data sheets. Ifswallowed, do not induce vomiting; seek medical advice immediately and show thiscontainer or label.

Skin Contact:If skin or hair contact occurs, immediately remove any contaminated clothing and wash skin and hair thoroughly with runningwater and soap. If swelling, redness, blistering or irritation occurs seek medical assistance. This material can be absorbedthrough the skin with resultant toxic effects. Seek immediate medical assistance.


so in addition to the right PPE I'd recommend an on-site emergency back-up person, who can drag you out of harms way and dial 000 should you have a problem

.....and this is what the MSDS says about Methylated Spirits:

Section 2: HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION
Classified as hazardous by the criteria of Safe Work Australia. Irritant.


R11: R66: R20/22: R36/38: S7/9: S16: S23: S29: S33: S45:
S24/25: S36/37/39:
Highly flammable.
Repeated exposure may cause skin dryness and cracking. Harmful by inhalation and if swallowed.
Irritating to eyes and skin.
Keep container tightly closed and in a well ventilated place. Keep away from sources of ignition.
Do not breathe vapours or mist.
Do not empty into drains
Take precautionary measures against static discharges.
In case of accident or if you feel unwell, seek medical advice immediately (show the label whenever possible.)
Avoid contact with skin and eyes.
Wear suitable protective clothing, gloves and eye/face protection.

....... MSDS for Mineral Turpentine:



If this product comes in contact with the eyes:
Wash out immediately with fresh running water.
Ensure complete irrigation of the eye by keeping eyelids apart and away from eye and moving the eyelids by occasionally lifting the upper and lower lids.
Seek medical attention without delay; if pain persists or recurs seek medical attention.
Removal of contact lenses after an eye injury should only be undertaken by skilled personnel.
If skin contact occurs:
Immediately remove all contaminated clothing, including footwear. Flush skin and hair with running water (and soap if available). Seek medical attention in event of irritation.


If fumes or combustion products are inhaled remove from contaminated area.
Lay patient down. Keep warm and rested.
Prostheses such as false teeth, which may block airway, should be removed, where possible, prior to initiating first aid procedures. Apply artificial respiration if not breathing, preferably with a demand valve resuscitator, bag-valve mask device, or pocket mask as trained. Perform CPR if necessary.
Transport to hospital, or doctor.


For advice, contact a Poisons Information Centre or a doctor at once.
Urgent hospital treatment is likely to be needed.
If swallowed do NOT induce vomiting.
If vomiting occurs, lean patient forward or place on left side (head-down position, if possible) to maintain open airway and prevent aspiration.
Observe the patient carefully.
Never give liquid to a person showing signs of being sleepy or with reduced awareness; i.e. becoming unconscious. Give water to rinse out mouth, then provide liquid slowly and as much as casualty can comfortably drink.
Transport to hospital or doctor without delay.


So you see Ian, Gum Turpentine is not much different to other products we use regularly.

[Kidbee]

Raw linseed oil or boiled linseed oil?

Boiled.

[AdamAnt]

Which eucalypt did you use? What kind of lamination are you talking about? Side by side or vertically? Any pics?

[Bob38S]

Boiled.

Thanks for that as it was my understanding also.

The OP was talking of raw which I understand has issues with regards drying and transference if used as a furniture finish.

[Gestalt]

Linseed oil and beeswax is a well known combo but a much more common method is to use linseed and then apply a beeswax over the top.

Also common is linseed oil/beeswax/turps. This is what I did our bedhead in.

Look on the web and you will lots of recipes with proportions.

Thanks BobL. As mentioned, I've done one coat of raw linseed oil, so I'll take your advice and apply beeswax on top. Is there a technique to doing this, or is it just plain old elbow grease??

[Gestalt]

Below is a beeswax recipe from a firm that sold eucalypt furniture and burl bowls at the famous Eumundi Markets on the Sunshine Coast:

1/2 kg beeswax (melted)

3 litres of gum turpentine

12 tablespoons of pale boiled linseed oil.

The gum turpentine makes the mixture smell wonderful and it appeals to the senses.

Thanks Kidbee, I must admit that I'd never heard of gum turpentine, so I did a quick google and found that Bunnings stock it.

[Gestalt]

Which eucalypt did you use? What kind of lamination are you talking about? Side by side or vertically? Any pics?

Actually what I used was F17 KDHW 190 by 45 by 4.2 long. Six lengths in total. I ripped these in half to give me 12 lengths of 93 by 45. I laminated all these using M16 all thread at 200 centres and titebond adhesive. On the front I counter bored the nuts in and made a larger stepped counter bore 65 in diameter and 10 deep. i then made up 20 jarrah plugs 65 diameter and 10 thick and glued these in.
So the finished bench top is 89 thick, 535 wide and 4030 long. The worst part of this job was getting it through the thicknesser. I ended up making a dedicated out feed table due to the weight. It's an effort to lift one end on my own. it's finished now except for trimming the ends once I have it on the bench. It's outside at the moment under 4 layers of tarps and it's pouring rain here, so I have no pictures. The next thing is to figure a way to get it inside into the kitchen!!

[AdamAnt]

Wow that's a chunky bench! Well, getting it in the the kitchen will be easy - you'll just need 10 blokes and a run up, no wall could possibly withstand you! :-)

[ian]

snip
Gum Turpentine is not much different to other products we use regularly.Kidbee

I think you missed my point

Metho and Mineral Turps can be a skin irritant -- think dermatitis -- and are not particularly pleasant if splashed into your eyes or swallowed but compared to Gum Turpentine they are relatively benign

The main risk with Gum Turpentine, as mentioned in the MSDS, is that it can ABSORBED into the blood stream through the skin.
Few if any of the products that we handle on a daily basis have that ability.

The amount you would use to clean an artist's brush is not much, but 3 litres and 1/2 kg of hot bee's wax -- as suggested in the finishing recipe -- should be cause to think about the appropriate PPE

[ubeaut]

Gum turps (pure turps) can cause kidney failure and worse if absorbed through the pores of the skin and prolonged use can send you batty. You might get the urge to lop off an ear like a well known artist who used lots of the stuff in his art work.

Mineral turpentine is much safer to use for making polishes, waxes etc.

Sorry about the book supposed to be ready for late May but June or even July is looking more likely now. Just not getting the time to work on it at the moment.

Cheers - Neil :U

[AdamAnt]

Since you asked if there was a method I looked up my trusty bible. Linseed oil method(s) summarised. Seal the surface with 2 coats of shellac, sanding between and allowing to dry, then continue with more coats of linseed oil, each coat rubbed in or sanded in, excess wiped off and allowed 24 hours to dry before next coat for 5 coats - full cure will take a week after final coat. This will get you a "traditional" hard oil finish. If sanding in, sand with the grain and wipe off across the grain first to fill with the sludge then wipe off along the grain. I think the shellac reduces the number of coats required to produce the same result. Shellac can still be applied even though you have put a coat of oil on already. Wax can be applied as well if you still want to. Another consideration if you are putting in a splash back is that silicone caulk will not stick properly to wax or uncured oil and maybe not even cured oil ( others may have more experience here) but I believe it will stick to shellac so it may be worth some trial with test pieces to get your method down if you will need to use silicone

[BobL]

I'm not convinced that Mineral turps is any safer than Gum.
Both are classified as an S5 poison (Caution) and Mineral turps even has a lower air borne TWA than gum turps.
If Gum was more dangerous it would be on the S6

It's most enlightening to see what's on the S5 list
For example the entry for Hydrocarbons is

HYDROCARBONS, LIQUID, including kerosene, diesel (distillate), mineral turpentine, white petroleum spirit, toluene, xylene and light mineral and paraffin oils (but excluding their derivatives), except:
(a) toluene and xylene when included in Schedule 6;

(b) benzene and liquid aromatic hydrocarbons when included in Schedule 7;

(c) food grade and pharmaceutical grade white mineral oils;

(d) in solid or semi-solid preparations;

(e) in preparations containing 25 per cent or less of designated solvents;

(f) in preparations packed in pressurised spray packs;

(g) in adhesives packed in containers each containing 50 grams or less of adhesive;

(h) in writing correction fluids and thinners for writing correction fluids packed in containers having a capacity of 20 mL or less; or

(i) in other preparations when packed in containers with a capacity of 2 mL or less.

[Gestalt]

Since you asked if there was a method I looked up my trusty bible. Linseed oil method(s) summarised. Seal the surface with 2 coats of shellac, sanding between and allowing to dry, then continue with more coats of linseed oil, each coat rubbed in or sanded in, excess wiped off and allowed 24 hours to dry before next coat for 5 coats - full cure will take a week after final coat. This will get you a "traditional" hard oil finish. If sanding in, sand with the grain and wipe off across the grain first to fill with the sludge then wipe off along the grain. I think the shellac reduces the number of coats required to produce the same result. Shellac can still be applied even though you have put a coat of oil on already. Wax can be applied as well if you still want to. Another consideration if you are putting in a splash back is that silicone caulk will not stick properly to wax or uncured oil and maybe not even cured oil ( others may have more experience here) but I believe it will stick to shellac so it may be worth some trial with test pieces to get your method down if you will need to use silicone

Thanks AdamAnt, That's great information. Seems I have quite a few options. Is that raw linseed oil that you are referring to? It's just that I'd rather use the raw stuff because I've got 20 litres lying around. That's also a good point about the splash back. I didn't even think of that. I did plan on using a glass splash back with a custom picture of Puffing Billy. I guess I could just router a shallow housing along the length.
Thanks again for the info.

[AdamAnt]

Yeah raw linseed oil or "boiled" - raw just takes longer to dry and may be more susceptible to mould, though I doubt it's anything to worry about, you won't be wanting to leave your lovely wooden bench top wet for obvious reasons. Oh, the method did say to finish sanding before starting, but I assumed you had done that. And btw, to moderators, pls advise if I should give credit to original author. Not sure if there's a protocol about that.

[AdamAnt]

Also, you may be able to get a different caulk that is waterproof like silicone but compatible with linseed oil. Phone call to Selleys or Sika might be worth a try. Good luck, I'd love to see your bench and puffin billy splash when it's done, pls post pics!

[ian]

I'm not convinced that Mineral turps is any safer than Gum.
Both are classified as an S5 poison (Caution) and Mineral turps even has a lower air borne TWA than gum turps.
If Gum was more dangerous it would be on the S6I wouldn't be too sure about that

Back when Dad was on the NSW Poisons Committee there was an expectation that people handling chemicals only worked in industry and would use proper handling methods -- The schedule lists were mostly about restricting access to substances that you could use to kill your neighbour, what was deemed illegal, and what was really toxic.

I'm sure that most of us would try and only work with solvents in a well ventilated environment -- or as well ventilated as a home garage can be -- but we wouldn't be too worried about skin exposure to Metho or Mineral Turps.

What I wanted to highlight was that Gum Turpentine is not a different "brand" of Turps. It's a different substance that, unlike the "normal" organic solvents we regularly use -- Metho, Kero*, Mineral Turps, paint thinners -- is absorbed through the skin.



* let's not get all technical and debate whether kero is or isn't an organic solvent.

[BobL]

I . . . . What I wanted to highlight was that Gum Turpentine is not a different "brand" of Turps. It's a different substance that, unlike the "normal" organic solvents we regularly use -- Metho, Kero*, Mineral Turps, paint thinners -- is absorbed through the skin. .

It sounds like you might have to have a read of the MSDS for Mineral turps.

One thing that many folks don't realise is that mineral turps is (just like Gum turps) it's not just one compound but a range of different compounds in varying amounts that depend on the manufacturer, but they don't both to tell the consumer exactly what's in it even on their MSDS, they cover there arses with a range.

The TWA for Mineral turps is given as one number (480 mg/m3)) but the individual components have different TWAs some higher and some lower than 480.

Because of these variable components the MSDS for Mineral, and Gum, turps recommends immediate washing of any hair and skin that comes into contact with turps.
The kidney problems associated with gum turps are from direct ingestion, not akin absorption.
Both can cause severe nervous system disorders including brain diseases found in some artists and house painters.

[Gestalt]

Yeah raw linseed oil or "boiled" - raw just takes longer to dry and may be more susceptible to mould, though I doubt it's anything to worry about, you won't be wanting to leave your lovely wooden bench top wet for obvious reasons. Oh, the method did say to finish sanding before starting, but I assumed you had done that. And btw, to moderators, pls advise if I should give credit to original author. Not sure if there's a protocol about that.

Thanks again AdamAnt, Yes I took it down to 400 grit and I'm pretty happy with the first coat. I'll spend some more time on it at the weekend.

[Gestalt]

Also, you may be able to get a different caulk that is waterproof like silicone but compatible with linseed oil. Phone call to Selleys or Sika might be worth a try. Good luck, I'd love to see your bench and puffin billy splash when it's done, pls post pics!

I'm thinking that if I router a channel housing for the glass it may not need any sealant. Besides, I've never been real good at getting a nice fine uniform bead of silicone!!!!
I'll get a couple of pics happening at the weekend.

[Bob38S]

Router a channel, possible moisture, dirt, bacteria trap.

I'm not sure but this is what immediately came to mind.

[AdamAnt]

I guess if the bench is fixed at the back and free to expand and contract at the front that could work. You may still want to seal the front side of the joint between wood and glass to stop water being trapped. Also perhaps allow a gap at the top of the glass for the wood's seasonal movement and a flexible adhesive for the glass (prob silicone), though at this time of year with your bench currently stored outside and having had wet weather I guess it'll prob shrink after being installed.

[AdamAnt]

I hear you with silicone being hard to get right, but when you do it's oh so satisfying. Bunnings plumbers mate are the best tool for jointing silicone IMO. They're cheap and excellent. Along with a spray bottle containing soapy water and some practice or maybe lots :-) Your situation with two new flat straight surfaces and a nice controllable gap is about as good as it gets for silicone - as long as you know it will stick to your bench. If you want I can go into more detail, just let me know.

[Gestalt]

Router a channel, possible moisture, dirt, bacteria trap.

I'm not sure but this is what immediately came to mind.

I was thinking of either a good fitting channel maybe 6mm deep or either a wider one that could have a tight fitting timber bead inserted at the back to enable the glass to mate up to the front of the channel. Probably the latter would be the preferred method. This bench top is not in the wet area of the kitchen, so I would imagine that this method would be fine, but hey, I'm no expert by any means. I'm always open to suggestions.

[Gestalt]

I guess if the bench is fixed at the back and free to expand and contract at the front that could work. You may still want to seal the front side of the joint between wood and glass to stop water being trapped. Also perhaps allow a gap at the top of the glass for the wood's seasonal movement and a flexible adhesive for the glass (prob silicone), though at this time of year with your bench currently stored outside and having had wet weather I guess it'll prob shrink after being installed.

Thanks AdamAnt, Yes I guess before inserting the glass I could run a bead of sealant in the channel and completely wipe off all excess once the glass is mated to the front of the channel. This would make for a pretty clean looking joint. Yes I can allow plenty of movement room at the top. There will be a wall unit above the bench top and the top of the glass can be held vertical by quad attached to the underside. I could probably allow a good 12mm clearance. I'll have to check the recommendations of the glass company.

[Gestalt]

I hear you with silicone being hard to get right, but when you do it's oh so satisfying. Bunnings plumbers mate are the best tool for jointing silicone IMO. They're cheap and excellent. Along with a spray bottle containing soapy water and some practice or maybe lots :-) Your situation with two new flat straight surfaces and a nice controllable gap is about as good as it gets for silicone - as long as you know it will stick to your bench. If you want I can go into more detail, just let me know.

Thanks again for the advice. I've never heard of plumbers mate, but I'll be sure to check it out. I might even start to enjoy applying silicone if that's the case!!! Thanks for the offer of more details. I'll let you know when the time gets closer for the sealant.

[AdamAnt]

Sorry, somehow got the product name wrong in my mind or maybe it's changed over the years. I've bought a few of these as the edges have worn out. Painters partner sealant edgers http://www.bunnings.com.au/paint-partner-4-piece-silicone-scraper-set_p1660196. If you have felt the pain and anguish of a silicone disaster you will appreciate these a lot. I still recommend practicing.

[Toymaker Len]

The trouble with raw linseed is that it is horribly sticky and slow to dry if you don't rub it off really well after application and then in the long term it goes darker and darker til its almost black. I much prefer a good marine varnish which keeps the colour of the timber and can be easily recoated every few years. Apparently Ubeaut hard shellac is even better but I haven't got to that yet.

[Master Splinter]

I think you might find a tung oil/citrus solvent a better solution rather than linseed oil.

And on the topic of gum turpentine, the alternative health brigade have it on their 'cures cancer' and 'miracle cure suppressed by Doctors!' list, so I would be treating it in much the same way I'd handle a product containing a mix of hydrofluric and sulphuric acid!

[Picko]

I think the most important thing to remember here is the volatility of this mixture and to remember not to attempt this over a naked flame. I have heard of some terrible burns from things going wrong on gas stoves.

[BobL]

I think you might find a tung oil/citrus solvent a better solution rather than linseed oil.

And on the topic of gum turpentine, the alternative health brigade have it on their 'cures cancer' and 'miracle cure suppressed by Doctors!' list, so I would be treating it in much the same way I'd handle a product containing a mix of hydrofluric and sulphuric acid!

Before we throw the baby out with the bathwater lets look at what is in gum turpentine.

The ingredients (I stress ingredients because it is not a single compound) in gum turpentine are a complex class of organic materials called "terpenes". Terpenes are found in plants (especially conifers) and some insects, and are the basic building blocks of many biological materials in all animals. Terpenes range from those that used to flavour foods, those used in pharmaceuticals, and insecticide. A major anti malarial drug is a terpene, as is Vitamin A. Chest rubs like Vicks contains gum turpentine. However this does not mean you should rub a bit of gum turpentine on your chest when you get a cold, or imbide in a shot to cover for a Vitamin A deficiency.

Its use by the funny farm folks to claim cures for very known disease does not detract from the fact that terpenes are extremely useful and ecologically critical materials.

However, just like home brew distilled alcohol where a mix of different alcohols can blind or kill, as we in our sheds cannot separate the good from the bad we treat it all as bad. I treat gum turpentine in the same way, don't breathe or drink it, don't use near naked flames, wear gloves when using it, disposed of rags soaked in it appropriately, and use plenty of ventilation, which is the same thing we should do with ordinary mineral turps.

My concern is less about gum turps and more that people using mineral turps think that because its not gum turps they can treat it like water.
Bottom line is, all the advice on chemicals in these forums is not really worth a row of beans compared to what's on the MSDS for these products.

[Master Splinter]

The trouble with MSDS is, as is often pointed out on these forums, everything sounds pretty much 'dangerous' in its MSDS, from water to alcohol to arsenic to (5R)-[(1S)-1,2-dihydroxyethyl]-3,4-dihydroxyfuran-2(5H)-one, so they are often worse than useless in making an effective risk assessment in a non-industrial type of setting.

[BobL]

The trouble with MSDS is, as is often pointed out on these forums, everything sounds pretty much 'dangerous' in its MSDS, from water to alcohol to arsenic to (5R)-[(1S)-1,2-dihydroxyethyl]-3,4-dihydroxyfuran-2(5H)-one, so they are often worse than useless in making an effective risk assessment in a non-industrial type of setting.

I disagree, they are very useful as a first line and second of information, especially for folks that know nothing about the chemicals.
I would rather newbies treat chemicals according to an MSDS than to do nothing at all, or based on what they hear from there mates or on these forums.

[Master Splinter]

And therein is the problem; you read that you should use particular handling precautions with a range of everyday chemicals which you have been using for years without any particular ill effect (bleach, metho, turps, acetone, dishwasher detergent) so that when you come across a new one with "gloves and eye protection and avoid getting on exposed skin" instructions, you remember that the same was said about (say), acetone, which your significant other uses to clean her nail polish off with every few days without a hazmat team on standby, and you think 'meh, what a load of overly cautious nervous nellies' and you proceed to clean your truck bullbar with a solution containing hydrofluoric acid while you are dressed in stubbies and thongs.

[Gestalt]

Sorry, somehow got the product name wrong in my mind or maybe it's changed over the years. I've bought a few of these as the edges have worn out. Painters partner sealant edgers http://www.bunnings.com.au/paint-partner-4-piece-silicone-scraper-set_p1660196. If you have felt the pain and anguish of a silicone disaster you will appreciate these a lot. I still recommend practicing.

That's a great product. Thanks for the link. I didn't even know they existed!!! Cheap too!!

[Gestalt]

The trouble with raw linseed is that it is horribly sticky and slow to dry if you don't rub it off really well after application and then in the long term it goes darker and darker til its almost black. I much prefer a good marine varnish which keeps the colour of the timber and can be easily recoated every few years. Apparently Ubeaut hard shellac is even better but I haven't got to that yet.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks Len. I've got 20 litres of the raw stuff so I'd really like to use it. Seems there are certainly plenty of options.

[BobL]

The complement to MSDS is "container labelling".

I used to laugh at the labelling requirements being enforced on us at work, until my SIL's father died from drinking drano.

Someone foolishly put drano in the exact same type of cordial bottle the family used to store the mixed cordial.

He came in off the paddock, dry as a proverbial, saw the bottle and took a large swig - 6 hours later he died with a heap of dissolved internal organs.

At the mens shed I saw a bottle of liquid hand soap stored in a pristine squeeze type tomato sauce bottle. Good idea in principle but at least peel the original label off and relabel the bottle.

Soap is not the end of the world but what about if it was battery acid?

One thing I do in my shed is use spray bottles with meths, turps, lube/coolant, and plain water. Sometimes when welding or grinding small things to save myself taking the object to the sink I use the water spray to cool things down a bit. Every time I reach for the water spray I think about container labelling.

[Gestalt]

I think you might find a tung oil/citrus solvent a better solution rather than linseed oil.



There are certainly plenty of options. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Gestalt]

I think the most important thing to remember here is the volatility of this mixture and to remember not to attempt this over a naked flame. I have heard of some terrible burns from things going wrong on gas stoves.
I've heard the best way to make a mixture like this is to heat a saucepan of water over the flame and melt the mixture in another saucepan with the steam.

[Gestalt]

Which eucalypt did you use? What kind of lamination are you talking about? Side by side or vertically? Any pics?
Here's a quick shot. It seems the beeswax / linseed oil mixture has lightened it somewhat. The front two thirds (length wise from the camera) is just the linseed oil, whereas the back third has the beeswax / linseed oil applied. The misses likes it without the beeswax. Makes it easy for me. Can't argue with that!!!

[AdamAnt]

I like it! The Jarrah circles will match with the puffin billy. Do you have a kind of funky theme going on throughout with your renos?

[Gestalt]

I like it! The Jarrah circles will match with the puffin billy. Do you have a kind of funky theme going on throughout with your renos?

Actually it's a new house. Well when I say new, I've been building it for over 20 years!!! It's post and beam framing with random ashlar bluestone infill. So the theme is rustic with exposed heavy timber framing.

[AdamAnt]

Hah! I'll tell my wife I'm not the only one who takes time getting things done!