Pedetrian crossings on the perimter of roundabouts DRIVE ME NUZ!

[FenceFurniture]

Is there any valid reason at all for putting a PC right on the exit of a roundabout (apart from saving the pedestrian a short walk)?

All they achieve is chronic traffic choke points. It wouldn't be so bad if pedestrians kept the car driving brains when they walk.

Here in Katoomba we have a number of these (some with four crossings - one at each roundabout exit). The most notable is at the Railway station, and when the sheep get off the train the choke point is appalling! "baaaaah" "baaah" "Baaaaah" as the tourists (the dopiest pedestrians of all) stream across.

[ian]

Hi Brett

I'm off to bed and so should you.
But don't forget your pills.

[bsrlee]

Quite likely to at least partly control the pedestrians, who otherwise would just flood across the road in all directions.

Of course, from your study of the Australian Road Rules (various States and Territories) would be aware that pedestrians (and bicyclists, roller skaters etc) are all 'traffic' and would be entitled to the same right of way that cars are while on the roundabout.:o

[FenceFurniture]

Yes, of course they are. The crossings should be set back at least 20 metres from the roundabout though - this would give at least some safety from the gits that don't look for pedestrians at the perimeter of the roundabout, and let some vehicular traffic pass through too.

[ian]

Hi Brett

can I suggest you go and park your car near the Katoomba shops and go for a walk around the shopping centre.

you will Pedestrians tend to follow what are known as "desire lines" -- basically the straight line between where they are and where they want to get to. so if you are walking along one street and want to get to the other side of a crossing street you will want to continue walking in a straight line.

when you come to the next cross street, I want you to walk about 50m along the crossing street, cross the road and then walk the 50m back to the corner. Then try telling me that making you walk an additional 100m (which would take the "standard pedestrian" around a minute and a half) made no difference to your journey. Compared to driving a car, walking an extra 100m is equivalent to taking a 1km detour

[KBs PensNmore]

What I hate is pedestrians that go past a pedestrian crossing, then j walk across the road and then go troppo at you for not giving them right of way:?.
Kryn

[ian]

What I hate is pedestrians that go past a pedestrian crossing, then j walk across the road and then go troppo at you for not giving them right of way:?.
Kryn

hate to say this, but the last crash I was involved with was when I stopped to allow a pedestrian to use a pedestrian crossing in a country town -- a local ran up my rear. How dare I stop for a pedestrian !!

[FenceFurniture]

But don't forget your pills.Firstly, if this isn't meant to be offensive then perhaps some smileys could be included, otherwise one is not sure....



can I suggest you go and park your car near the Katoomba shops and go for a walk around the shopping centre.

you will Pedestrians tend to follow what are known as "desire lines" -- basically the straight line between where they are and where they want to get to. so if you are walking along one street and want to get to the other side of a crossing street you will want to continue walking in a straight line.

when you come to the next cross street, I want you to walk about 50m along the crossing street, cross the road and then walk the 50m back to the corner. Then try telling me that making you walk an additional 100m made no difference to your journey.

The crossings should be set back at least 20 metres from the roundabout though - this would give at least some safety from the gits that don't look for pedestrians at the perimeter of the roundabout, and let some vehicular traffic pass through too.

How do you turn at least 20 metres (clearly meaning 20-25 metres) into 50 metres??? I agree that 50 metres is too far, and is unnecessary. However, that was never suggested.



I went up and took some pics this morning, thinking it would be pretty busy. Not to be - the State election must have kept people away today. In any case I can show the areas that create the problems (and others that don't).

This is the roundabout on the southern side of the railway overpass, and there is a traffic lit intersection with the Highway about 50-70 metres out the right (which creates a great deal of congestion for traffic at this roundabout). You can see that the burgundy Ford has stopped for a pedestrian well short of the mark, and right in the middle of the path of the white Camry wagon that could otherwise get through. Blue car manages to stop abreast of the Ped.Crossing.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=343185&d=1427505995

Same roundabout which has about 4 metres from perimeter to Crossing. This time the red car stops, and I observed that the burgundy wagon was clearly not aware of a looming pedestrian - had to stop with bonnet-dipping suddeness - again, right across the path of a car that could have passed through. Stopped perhaps a metre or less from the back of the red car.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=343186&d=1427506004


As a result of the too-short distance of crossing from roundabout, this sort of thing happens all the time. Bus or truck or car+trailer stops at the roundabout, which can take ages (couple of minutes) to get through because of the traffic light choke point. What is a pedestrian supposed to do with a bloody great bus there? What about wheelchair and elderly or otherwise infirm people?
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=343187&d=1427506010


This taxi rank is in between the above roundabout and the next one down at the Railway Station. It's very narrow, and dopey Taxi drivers stand on the road leaning on the window of a mate's taxi, having a yak. I see this far too often (but not this quiet morning). You can see that there is only about ½ a metre from the edge of the car to the traffic way.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=343188&d=1427506014

The most problematic roundabout in this precinct is the one at the Railway exit. These three twats (very obviously tourists) decided to stand on the very edge of the crossing and have a yak (as it turned out, while they waited for a friend to catch up). What I observed was a taxi stop for them and wait fully 10-15 seconds for them to cross. They didn't move, but looked for all the world like they were about to cross. STEP BACK YOU TWATS!
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=343191&d=1427506033

Friend arrives and they come straight out, after annoying the traffic for about 45-60 seconds. You can see that the bull bar car had to stop very quickly because they suddenly decided to cross after all the delay.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=343192&d=1427506039

The pics above show the busiest crossing of this intersection. There are only three roadway exits (not the usual four). This next pic is the opposite end of above and shows that there is room for 1½ cars between crossing and roundabout. This crossing has very very little pedestrian traffic, and so in that case it's not much of a problem. However, in the previous one the gap is the same (about 1½ cars worth) and creates all sorts of bank ups while the pedetrians stream across - particularly when a train has arrived to disgorge it's contents.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=343190&d=1427506027


This is the third crossing near that roundabout. It is about 18 metres from the perimeter, and that is room for 3-4 cars depending on size. There is another obstacle right on this point, and that is cars parking in a 15 minute zone (RIGHT on the edge of the roundabout - where the bright blue car is, and one spot behind it). However, because there is a reasonable gap to the crossing there are nowhere near the amount of blockages caused by pedestrians.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=343189&d=1427506020


I stood for a while and observed the main crossing. The bloody tourists leave their brains at home - many that I saw would walk across the first half, then slow down in the second half while they pointed out things in their "desire lines". There were cars waiting for them. CHRISSAKES - BE ALERT, get off the road and out of harm's way! I've seen them walking across while they are texting, I've seen them start to cross and turn back after a metre or two or 4 because a friend says "no wait for the other sheep" and then turn straight back around again because they decide not to wait after all. Poor old car driver waiting for them can't figure out WHAT they will do next.....

Now this is exacerbated because Katoomba is a major tourist destination, and tourist pedestrians are the most air-headed of all: like walking in a phalanx of 15-20 taking up the entire quite wide footpath - then the phalanx stands as a tighter unit - complete with strollers and back packs and trolley luggage - at the bus stop blocking all other foot traffic.

My overall point is move the crossings back about 15-20 metres (a slight revision since observing) and there will be much less congestion, and more safety. Motorists have a fair bit to contend with, and this would relieve a little bit of it.

[Ironwood]

They have done the same thing to the roundabouts in the CBD in Mackay as well. It chokes the traffic flow here as well.

[Bob38S]

Thanks for the pix FF, now I fully understand what you have been on about.

Not sure as to how this can be solved but I think there would have to be a better way, surely. Do you know of any accidents in this area?

Have you considered sending your pix and concerns to the relevant authority for their comments - could be an interesting reply.

[FenceFurniture]

Not sure as to how this can be solved but I think there would have to be a better way, surely. Do you know of any accidents in this area?It wouldn't be too hard to move the four (of five) crossings back to 15-20 metres. The best solution for the main roundabout at the Railway is "smart" traffic lights - where they only operate at higher volume times (peds and cars) and then revert to roundabout rules.

The guy at the coffee kiosk at the head of the stairs said that yes, yesterday was quiet but today would be very busy - but I couldn't get there to take pics this morning. However, next Sunday (Easter Sun) is the busiest day of the year, and I expect it will be chaos at the Railway crossing.

The other roundabout (where the bus was) also needs lights but for a different reason - so as to coincide with the lights at the hwy and reduce the choke point significantly.


Have you considered sending your pix and concerns to the relevant authority for their comments - could be an interesting reply.Good idea, I might just do that.

Haven't witnessed any accidents, but have seen near misses. To be frank, accidents at that low speed are not too big a deal, it's the traffic choke that is the problem. Mind you, an accident at any speed above 1-3 kph with a pedestrian is likely to be injurious.

[Bob38S]

Thanks for that.

[ian]

Hi Brett

I'm off to bed and so should you.
But don't forget your pills.I shouldn't have presumed that our familiarity was sufficient that I could post this without including the right smilies :-

I'm sorry

[FenceFurniture]

I shouldn't have presumed that our familiarity was sufficient that I could post this without including the right smilies :-

I'm sorryNo worries Ian, just wasn't sure.

[ian]

Hi Brett

fully agree re installing smart lights at the problem roundabout.

In terms of where should the pedestrian crossing at a roundabout be located -- there's no easy answer.
move it 15 to 20m from the roundabout and the pedos don't like the extra distance they have to walk so start looking to cross the road before the crossing and some cars will be accelerating back to their desired travel speed -- the 50m above was me being lazy with the walking time calcs

The set back distances you show in your photos, look to me to be a reasonable compromise -- of course brainless pedos and equally vacant headed drivers are not an ideal mix, but what we have is what we have.
The roundabout rules say, give way to the vehicle already in the roundabout, but in practice this seems to translate to you MUST give way to the vehicle APPROACHING the roundabout from your right. I've stopped counting the number of drivers who blow their horn because I've had the temerity to enter a roundabout before they arrive at it.

If drivers didn't tailgate -- a difficult concept to grasp and enforce in an era of camera based enforcement -- they would see that they couldn't clear the roundabout because the vehicle ahead of them was waiting for a pedo, so they wouldn't enter the roundabout thus making space for traffic from other legs. Likewise, if drivers knew how short their cars were they'd know that they would fit in the distance between the roundabout's exit and the pedo crossing.

Perhaps traffic engineers who live in hope that drivers will some day be better educated and courteous are delusional.

[FenceFurniture]

In terms of where should the pedestrian crossing at a roundabout be located -- there's no easy answer.Well I think that the one crossing that is set back a proper distance (18 metres) proves the case for it. I drive and walk there very regularly and I don't recall any problems - there is some choking but not like the other crossings produce. That crossing is the main street of Katoomba "Katoomba Street" which is where all the tourists are headed - it's just that they ALL have to use that first crossing after alighting from the train.


move it 15 to 20m from the roundabout and the pedos don't like the extra distance they have to walk so start looking to cross the road before the crossing and some cars will be accelerating back to their desired travel speed Well, they might just have to get over it.....

I mean, I can't see them saying "Not coming back here - too far to walk to cross the road". In truth they are unlikely to return anyway.

The big problem with those short distances is pretty basic: take the burgundy car that had to stop so quickly behind the red car (second pic I think). The driver may be a local but also could well be an unfamiliar tourist. Getting through that roundabout (coming from the hwy) can take some time - the VERY last thing an unobservant driver expects is that the car the has just got through the roundabout ahead of him is then going to stop IMMEDIATELY on the perimeter, causing him to crash stop (albeit at low speed) and leave them stranded in the middle of the roundabout, blocking other traffic. An observant driver would/should anticipate this but as we know there are already so many obstacles for drivers to take in, even an observant driver can be caught out from time to time.

Roundabouts are pretty tricky when the traffic is heavy. As you say, the rule is give way to traffic already on it, BUT that still leaves plenty who think the "follow on" rule prevails. And THAT means extra things to be observed and dealt with. Having the vast distraction of pedos right on the spot as well is just ridiculously raising the bar, and asking for trouble - the pedos are the last in the chain to be dealt with (when the dopey driver thinks they are clear at last) and that just heightens the danger to the pedos.

Extra eye attracting material (bright colours, flashing lights or whatever) to highlight a crossing that is 15-20 metres away would go some way towards alerting the unobservant when they have to slow down from what will be a slightly higher speed.

We all wish that every driver was alert and observant, but that just ain't gonna happen (you oughta try being a passenger with my mother - it's a white knuckle freakout - when she was any age). So, given that it's extremely unlikely that drivers or pedos are ever going to change, we then have to accommodate the situation as best we can.

[JDarvall]

when I see a pedestrian crossing, I just take my foot off the accelerator and put it on the brake in readiness for a pedestrian to cross. If the pedestrians a lady, I check her out, and think about how advantageous it would be to have tinted windows, so I could look at her without risk of staring and resembling a pervert. If its a bloke I do nothing. When the pedestrians nearly crossed, I consider the timing for hitting the accelerator. I mean, is it rude to roll over the crossing when say the pedestrians on the last white bar ? Can I get away with doing it when he/she's on the second last bar without looking pushy ?

If its a lady I find particularly attractive its the opposite. Instead of worrying about offending the pedestrian I have to worry instead about annoying the driver behind me. Uno, how long can I get away with just sitting here checking her out before the driver hits his/her horn ?

[AlexS]

Jake, I'm tempted to say that's the first sensible post on this thread...but I won't.:D

[MAPLEMAN]

I shouldn't have presumed that our familiarity was sufficient that I could post this without including the right smilies :-

I'm sorryI'm sorry too Brett for liking the post :-...but i felt there was NO malice intended by Ian and certainly none by me liking it...thought it was humorous but sad to see it may have initially offended you...Cheers MM:2tsup:

[FenceFurniture]

I'm sorry too Brett for liking the post :-...but i felt there was NO malice intended by Ian and certainly none by me liking it...thought it was humorous but sad to see it may have initially offended you...Cheers MM:2tsup:Nah, it's all good. I was pretty sure Ian wasn't trying to be offensive, but what can come out of it is that without a smiley some others might think so and jump on what they think is a bandwagon (a couple spring to mind.....). I guess that may only be relevant for people that have become a target for a couple of individuals. They might "like" a post just to point score, you see - there was an example of that just recently in one of my posts - original comment meant as humour, but got a "like" which clearly wasn't meant as humour.

I take Ian's point that familiarity can obviate the need for smileys - I've done it myself because it can make the humour behind the comment drier, and therefore funnier.

No worries, let's move on.

[rustynail]

Recently, I had the opportunity to ask three policemen their understanding of the rules for roundabouts. Each had a different answer! One refered to them as "whirlpools." Oh well, I guess someone must know what's going on.

[brontehls]

Until I retired last year I was very involved with the local pedestrian community.

'THE OLD LADIES'

The mini roundabouts in Katoomba are typical of replacement of pedestrian crossings at T and X cross intersections in areas of limited high peak demand. Try telling the ratepayers that they have to go out of their normal patterns to allow for the people in cars - especially if it is 35 degrees or 3 degrees and raining.

Think yourself lucky that the main cross street in your town is not a 'state highway' all local rights go out the window.

Neil

[JDarvall]

'THE OLD LADIES'


I'm not an expert on old ladys but I think you've gota watch out for some of them. Some like in the first picture(1st pic) , who reminds me of my late grandmother, are just lovely. The sort your willing to go so far as to even get out of the drivers seat, and stop traffic to help her cross.

BUT I reakon some, like in the second picture(2nd pic) are just EVIL. Evil grannies. Don't think I'll help them. Because of her obvious physical weaknesses, her power trip can only be through manipulative verbal communication. Because she knows only too well just how powerful a kangaroo court can be. Drools over the thought. Once she gets her mind set, your stuffed. Seems like all towns have them, and due to there inability to just mind their business and accept varying ideals, are one of the true causes of community disrepute, as they doggedly, with such hate, get there way, embelishing/ misleading others to come to their defence using their feelings of honour and principle as a tool(no matter what the truth is). So yeh, I understand the fear of upsetting some of them over pedestrian crossing placement. Dangerous women.


I reakon if your particularly unlucky you may snag an Evil granny with muscle backup. The one that has say a football playing son, who loves her mum…….. ' LOVE YOU MUM. grrrrrr….we'll get him. he'll be driven out eventually' . …...He'll be her muscle. She'll love it. Lap it up. The most vulnerable to her persuasion seems to be the Gentelman football player son (3rd pic) , who will knee jerk particularly quickly to save the day for his team and his mum as soon as he hears her 'victimised' sounding voice.


I've got a football player following me around town at the moment(I don't know if he's a gentleman or if he loves his mum. Excellent painter though) and it ant pretty. An angry looking man, looking for some opportunity to deck me. I'm not in the habit of fighting so he probably could. I better stay away from dark alleys and stick to pedestrian crossings. I was thinking of a way of defending myself and other community members from such a angry man who could explode at any moment. And then I realised.…..LEGO ! The kids don't use it anymore ……so I'll walk the streets with my pockets full of lego, and when I see him about to cause a public disturbance, especially on pedestrian crossings, I'll throw lego at his feet….that'll stop him. I don't know about you, but it bloody hurts when I step on lego. stops me in my tracks. ……. I think I'll make it a daily thing. A community vigilanty service. Lego patrol to keep these undesirables at bay. AND I'll do it for free. Hope I get town credit for it.


Angry men like this just need to be watched uno. I must remember, when I go on patrol, to take my phone to pre warn the community of his movements.

I do think cigar smoking grannies are pretty cool though regardless to their nature. (4th pic) .