creating effective stains from pigments

[old_picker]

i would really like to expand the colours available in my workshop from the rather muddy lackluster selection of stains on sale in australia today
i am certain what is available are pigment based suspensions and would love to be able to make them myself
take a look at these products and although not stains they are similar in the fact that they are using bright colours as well as the trad browns
http://www.wudtone.com/2012/03/23/finishing-diykits/
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/dingotone/

the old school restores would make stains from a stock of pigments
any colour could be made using cunning combinations of various pigments such as burnt umber, crimson lake etc etc

anyone have any idea on what they would have used as a binder?
how would they keep a mix in suspension?

thanks for any and all input

[jcge]

Old time binders would be shellac, linseed oil, gum Arabic etc. "A Treatise of Japaning and Varnishing" by John Stalker & George Parker 1688 should give you some ideas and is available online as a PDF.

[Peter57]

Old Picker,

have you tried a local paint store? The colourants that they use in those paint tinting machines are usually pure pigment dispersions. They are usually one pigment in some sort of carrier medium. If you use a small amount of pigment and no white in a clear, the coating will be fairly transparent. Just don't add too much pigment. I reckon something around 5-10% would be a good start.

Also, make sure you use water based tints in water based systems and solvent based tints for solvent systems. If you are happy spraying the coating, then I reckon it would be worth buying a litre of automotive clear acrylic and then talking the shop into selling you a few bright tints (you'd only need a very small amount for experimenting.)

cheers,
Peter

[old_picker]

Old Picker,
have you tried a local paint store? The colourants that they use in those paint tinting machines are usually pure pigment dispersions.
Peter

that is a good idea
i can get the raw powdered pigments from any decent art shop - there are still a few of the big ones around
just a matter of working up a recipe for the carrier - epsom salts in very small quantities will hold things in suspension with very minimal settling
epsom salts is fine in water suspensions but not sure what would happen if i used white spirit for example

[mark david]

Hi, I have been doing restoration for a long time.
Most of the colours used tended to be earth pigments which as as far as I know hey dont change colour with time when exposed to light.
They don't actually desolve but are usually miscible in solvents, usually French polish.

The main problem is that when applied over timber they tend to make the timber look muddy as they just sit on the surface, this can be an advantage though when trying to disguise repairs.

The same effect can be seen in those awful all in one stain and varnishes which I hate and invariable look terrible in my opinion.

I think the most effective and realistic looking stains are powder based spirit soluble, also Van Dyke crystals (made from walnut husks)which are water based.

Cement colouring oxides can be used quite effectively to make stains and useful when mixed with wood fillers too.

[Thumbthumper]

I use artists pigments.

I mix them into metho and stir well while I'm using it.
I have a yellow as well.
With the red, brown and yellow, you can achieve most colours you might need.

345146

[RoyG]

i would really like to expand the colours available in my workshop from the rather muddy lackluster selection of stains on sale in australia today
i am certain what is available are pigment based suspensions and would love to be able to make them myself
take a look at these products and although not stains they are similar in the fact that they are using bright colours as well as the trad browns
http://www.wudtone.com/2012/03/23/finishing-diykits/
http://www.pitbullguitars.com/dingotone/

the old school restores would make stains from a stock of pigments
any colour could be made using cunning combinations of various pigments such as burnt umber, crimson lake etc etc

anyone have any idea on what they would have used as a binder?
how would they keep a mix in suspension?

thanks for any and all input

Instead of, or in addition to making your own stains, you could try using Aniline Dyes to obtain the colours you're after. There is a limited supply available (mostly from the USA via Internet Order, but there are some Aust resellers). They usually come as small bags or tines of powder, so freight costs are minimal if you need to import from the USA.

Aniline Dye powders can usually be mixed with either water or meths. A local fellow around my area makes banjos and I've seen him use J.E. Mosers Aniline Dye to get some really different colours, but also to subtly highlight the figure in highly figured wood. (http://woodworker.com/alcohol-soluble-brt-yellow-golden-oak-aniline-dye-mssu-845-541.asp) Aniline Dye is also used in powered Fabric Dyes which are available in a whole spectrum of colours from some fabric shops. I've heard of people using aniline fabric dyes on timber, but don't know anyone who has actually done it, so I don't know how valid that idea is.


This forum's main sponsor sells a "Non Toxic Water Dye" for wood (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dye.html) It apparently uses food grade dyes, so it may not be Aniline Dye based. It's designed for woodturning finishing, but in the Data Sheet for the product, they discuss using the dye on furniture under a variety of finishes.

Have a look at this article for more information about Aniline Dyes - http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/aniline-dye-a-better-way-to-finish

Regards,

Roy

[old_picker]

i have no experience myself with aniline dyes but reading up on their use tells me they fade over time
hence my interest in using pigments

[RoyG]

i have no experience myself with aniline dyes but reading up on their use tells me they fade over time
hence my interest in using pigments

I've been looking for another magazine article about Aniline Dyes that discussed susceptibility to fading. So far I haven't found the article - but I'll post it when I eventually find it. In essence, what the author of the article had done was to explore some of the issues around Aniline Stains fading. They prepared some samples and tested them for fading by exposing them to sunlight in a sealed "glass-house" box, so that the test pieces would be protected from the weather but exposed to full sunlight over a period of two years.

I can't remember all of the details, but at the end of the test period the general result was that there was some colour change on all samples, but it was difficult to determine whether the colour change was due to the dye changing colour, or due to the wood changing colour, or both. They included a couple of pigment stain samples for comparison, and there were similar changes with them. In the end, they concluded that aniline dyes may fade with exposure to sunlight, but both wood and pigment stains also change colour with exposure to light. I remember that one of their conclusions was that there was less colour change on the samples that had PolyU on them when compared to samples that had been oiled.

I just rang my mate who uses aniline dyes to finish the Banjos that he makes, and he advises that he's never experienced fading. He finishes his instruments with Lacquer. He said that one of his instruments has been a showroom display item in the window of a instrument shop in Brisbane for five years and when he saw it last year it still looked OK. He has over ten years experience using the stuff and his view was that the claims people make about aniline dye fading are possibly not based on actual wood finishing experience, but instead maybe based on the rapid fading of the aniline dyes used in Inkjet Printer ink. The Inkjet Printer reds and yellows fade in a big rush, but they are deposited straight on bare paper. and they don't have a Shellac, PolyU or Lacquer finish applied over the top of the dye.

If I can find that magazine article, I'll post the link to it.

Regards,

Roy

[Peter57]

The problem with exposing samples to exposure under glass is that the glass will block or reduce the amount of high energy UV light hitting the samples. This will slow the degradation significantly.

i don't think there is an organic dye or pigment that isn't eventually damaged by the sun's UV Rays. It's the speed of degradation that's important.

[hiroller]

Any experience of using Micol universal tints?
http://www.goldleaf.com.au/shop/mixol-tints
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/147164/Mixol-Universal-Tint-Kit-24-piece.aspx
Seems like it might meet the OPs needs.

[old_picker]

Any experience of using Micol universal tints?
http://www.goldleaf.com.au/shop/mixol-tints
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/147164/Mixol-Universal-Tint-Kit-24-piece.aspx
Seems like it might meet the OPs needs.

perfect - exactly what i was after - thanks