Plexiglas as a timber stabiliser

[Hermit]

During my YouTube travels last night, I came across a reference to using acrylic sheet dissolved in acetone as a timber stabiliser and even as a finish.

Has anyone heard of this, or even better, tried it?

In the video, it was used to strengthen a Sea Urchin Shell, although it was said that he didn't know if it actually worked and strengthened one, but that he hadn't broken any yet.

It sounds like a really good idea, although I'm not so sure about it as a finish.

Urchin Ornaments (Brian Havens) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMZ8jIkcB-o)

[safari]

Don't know anything about its use as a finish, but I remember using acrylic and acetone to make a glue for building model aeroplanes 60 or so years ago. It worked very well and it was a lot cheaper than buying a tube of glue when pocket money was a bit thin on the ground.

[Robson Valley]

Plexiglas is methyl methacrylate fiberglass resin, used, as you know, in boat hull and deck construction.
If you go that route, outgassing the resin is a chore to prevent bubbles.

What is the point of "stablizing" timber?
For totally dead stuff, temperature or humidity changes and wood moves.
There's nothing with a zero coefficient of expansion.

[Hermit]

Plexiglas is methyl methacrylate fiberglass resin, used, as you know, in boat hull and deck construction.
If you go that route, outgassing the resin is a chore to prevent bubbles.

What is the point of "stablizing" timber?
For totally dead stuff, temperature or humidity changes and wood moves.
There's nothing with a zero coefficient of expansion.

I was intrigued more with the overall notion than anything else. Good lateral thinking.

Not stabilising timber to stop expansion/contraction, but stabilising punky wood for turning. Possibly also to settle end-grain a bit. In this type of application, a few bubbles wouldn't hurt, if 'outgassing' is a potential drawback. Maybe coat/soak the timber then wrap it to slow evaporation and allow the bubbles to escape?

Glue, as mentioned, is another good use. (Thanks safari)

Probably others not yet thought of.....

[Master Splinter]

You could just use the stabilising resin that pen turners use - longer working time (needs heat to cure) so you can vacuum out all the bubbles.
http://www.timberbits.com/cactus-juice

[Hermit]

You could just use the stabilising resin that pen turners use - longer working time (needs heat to cure) so you can vacuum out all the bubbles.
http://www.timberbits.com/cactus-juice

Definitely, and no doubt get a better result, if you have some on hand and a vacuum setup to suck out the bubbles. OK if you're doing it regularly, but for a one-off, expensive. I've heard of Cactus Juice but never tried it. (I don't make pens.)

The idea of recycling all my scraps of acrylic sheet left over from various projects appeals too. As a quick-fix wood hardener, I reckon this would do as well as, or better than, my MinWax stuff, if it's thin enough to soak in well.

I don't actually have a 'punky' problem, (love that word), the video just got me thinking.

I'm almost out of acetone, but when I get another bottle in a couple of days I'll make a small batch and give it a go. See if it can harden/strengthen a piece of balsa. Yeah, I know, CA can do that, but it too is pretty expensive if you need much.

[Master Splinter]

With acetone at $10/litre, it's not exactly cheap either!

[Hermit]

With acetone at $10/litre, it's not exactly cheap either!

No, but it keeps a lot longer than a small bottle of (pre-catylysed) cactus juice. Might not need a $200 vacuum setup, either.

[Hermit]

I finally found a reference to using acrylic sheet and acetone in an old thread here on the forums, in 'Pen Turning'. Thanks for the clue, Master Splinter.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=51917&p=538276#post538276

Unfortunately, the link to more info in that thread is dead.

Apparently it does work well, but like Cactus Juice, needs a vacuum to pull it into the timber for best results.

On the up side, it shouldn't go off like Cactus Juice, if it sits on the shelf too long.

[rob streeper]

I've been doing it to saw handles.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=180942

[Hermit]

I've been doing it to saw handles.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=180942

Thanks Rob. I just read through your thread. Interesting.

So, MinWax Wood Hardener is dissolved polycarbonate? (I read your thread very quickly.)
Edit: It's stronger than acrylic, from memory, but acrylic sounds like it'd do fine unless higher strength is required. (I have no polycarbonate scraps.)

It's been so long since I last used the MinWax stuff that I'd forgotten it smells like acetone.

I have a small vacuum pump here that happily pulls 29inHg, but no container, apart from a 50 litre beer keg that I converted to a fermenter years ago. I'll see what I can come up with, and have a play when I get a chance.

Looks like I probably won't be buying wood hardener again, at least.

[rob streeper]

So, MinWax Wood Hardener is dissolved polycarbonate? (I read very quickly.)

It's been so long since I last used the MinWax stuff that I'd forgotten it smells like acetone.

I have a small vacuum pump here that happily pulls 29inHg, but no container, apart from a 50 litre beer keg that I converted to a fermenter years ago. I'll see what I can come up with, and have a play when I get a chance.

Looks like I probably won't be buying wood hardener again, at least.

As best I can tell Minwax wood hardener is simply polycarbonate in acetone, I'm pretty sure of the proportions I describe in the other thread.

I've found that the Minwax product is a little too concentrated for vacuum infusion, it has a low viscosity but I get better uptake when it is cut. The cut ratio varies with the type of wood being infused.

As to the price of acetone, you guys in Australia seem to pay a lot for everything. Here a gallon of technical grade acetone at the home store is still reasonable at $15-$20. However, loss is not high unless you spill the solution and it can be re-used without problem. Just be careful with lighter types of wood as the solution will pick up color from use on dark woods.

Be careful with selection of a vacuum chamber, don't want to send anyone to the hospital. Be sure to check the chemical compatibility of your chamber too. I see a lot of people selling infusion chambers on eBay that appear to be made using stainless steel cooking pots. Nice because they won't shatter and are likely adequately strong to handle -15 p.s.i./-760 mm Hg. The missus may object though.

[Hermit]

As best I can tell Minwax wood hardener is simply polycarbonate in acetone, I'm pretty sure of the proportions I describe in the other thread.

I've found that the Minwax product is a little too concentrated for vacuum infusion, it has a low viscosity but I get better uptake when it is cut. The cut ratio varies with the type of wood being infused.

As to the price of acetone, you guys in Australia seem to pay a lot for everything. Here a gallon of technical grade acetone at the home store is still reasonable at $15-$20. However, loss is not high unless you spill the solution and it can be re-used without problem. Just be careful with lighter types of wood as the solution will pick up color from use on dark woods.

Be careful with selection of a vacuum chamber, don't want to send anyone to the hospital. Be sure to check the chemical compatibility of your chamber too. I see a lot of people selling infusion chambers on eBay that appear to be made using stainless steel cooking pots. Nice because they won't shatter and are likely adequately strong to handle -15 p.s.i./-760 mm Hg. The missus may object though.

Rob, acetone here isn't as expensive as Master Splinter said unless you buy it in a 750ml plastic bottle, (~$7.50). I don't know the exact price, but it would be very cheap by the gallon, or even a 20 litre drum.

I forgot to mention, my 50 litre beer keg/fermenter is stainless steel, and fairly heavy gauge. I'm just not sure if it would survive full vacuum from my pump due to it's large surface area. At around 18-20inHg though, it would be fine, and has a really good seal ring under the lid, (the lid's the stainless steel bottom of another similar keg, with a small valve in the centre). I have vacuum fittings that would almost go straight in if I decide to use it. Bloody big, though, for a tiny piece of wood.

[Hermit]

This is the 50 litre fermenter (come vacuum chamber?).
The seal just sits there and is sandwiched by the lid, usually held down by the threaded rod in the pic. With vacuum applied, the rod wouldn't be needed, but I might need to glue the seal in place.

335056335055

I wonder how many pen blanks it would hold?

[rob streeper]

I think I'll put the Corningware back and use this. Should be more than strong enough, has a small volume appropriate for saw handles and it's cheap at $0.99 each.

335061

[Hermit]

I think I'll put the Corningware back and use this. Should be more than strong enough, has a small volume appropriate for saw handles and it's cheap at $0.99 each.

335061

Looks good, Rob, and the price is right. :2tsup:

I'll probably try to find something a more appropriate size than my fermenter.
(Been eying off the dog's stainless food bowl. :wink:)

[soundman]

there is a whole section on casting and stabilisation over on the pen forum

Some of those guys, have realy done a lot of work on the matter and realy know their stuff.

Just about any resin can be used to stabilise wood with varying degrees of success.

I often use shellac to harden and stabilise turnings

Some soft timbers like sheeoak cut realy poorly across the end grain......soaking the rough cut bowl in a thin cut of shellac and letting it harden realy makes the grain stand up and be cut resulting in a far better finish.

I have seen shalec run right thru a 10mm thick bowl blank in sheoak.

as for CA being expensive....yeh..well......most of the time you are paying more for the package and the mark up than you are for the contents.

Buying it in larger bottles and from the right place can Considerably reduce the price.

Niel AKA DiSensi......is also known as "The resin king", due to his high consumption of a range of resins......last time the subject came up he was telling me he baught CA in litre containers........but if buying in those quantities.....you beeter be using it fast, before it goes off or evaporates.

ANYway..duck over to the pen section and have a read.......oh sorry...buy a carton of red bull or a large bottle of coffee..then go over there for a read......there is heaps of stuff on the matter over there.

cheers

[Hermit]

there is a whole section on casting and stabilisation over on the pen forum

Some of those guys, have really done a lot of work on the matter and really know their stuff.

Just about any resin can be used to stabilise wood with varying degrees of success.

I often use shellac to harden and stabilise turnings

Some soft timbers like sheeoak cut realy poorly across the end grain......soaking the rough cut bowl in a thin cut of shellac and letting it harden realy makes the grain stand up and be cut resulting in a far better finish.

I have seen shalec run right thru a 10mm thick bowl blank in sheoak.

as for CA being expensive....yeh..well......most of the time you are paying more for the package and the mark up than you are for the contents.

Buying it in larger bottles and from the right place can Considerably reduce the price.

Neil AKA DaiSensei......is also known as "The resin king", due to his high consumption of a range of resins......last time the subject came up he was telling me he baught CA in litre containers........but if buying in those quantities.....you beeter be using it fast, before it goes off or evaporates.

ANYway..duck over to the pen section and have a read.......oh sorry...buy a carton of red bull or a large bottle of coffee..then go over there for a read......there is heaps of stuff on the matter over there.

cheers

Thanks for the good advice, soundman. You're right - my best info so far has been from the pen section. Got plenty of tea-bags and coffee.

And I've had the same (problem?) of things going straight through the walls of thin bowls, both WOP and shellac. Had it happen a few times lately, with Meranti and Southern Silky. 3mm walls. It came as a surprise on the first Meranti bowl while putting a coat of finish on the inside for the vac chuck. Luckily I'd already sanded the outside, so I just spread it out.

I'll have a hunt for suppliers of larger, cheaper quantities of thin CA, too. I've been using heaps lately. Got some SSO slabs and some NGR with a lot of fine cracks. Currently I use Hot Stuff from Carbatec. Not the cheapest place to buy things.

One litre bottles. :oo:
You sure Neil's not drinking it?
I reckon 250ml bottles would be ideal for me right now.

[soundman]

Yeh I don't think he is drinking it......very small quantities of CA taken by mouth will send you blind.....apparently it sends the fluid in the eye permanently milky.

this is the reason why it is only sold in very small quantities in retail stores....keep this stuff well away from children.

I don't find stuff running thru timber a problem.....I make it work to my advantage......the shellac penetrates full thickness on the first application....if you are thinking about impregnation and stabilisation...this is a good thing.

As for places to buy CA and a few other thing ..try hobby king.

cheers

[Hermit]

Yeh I don't think he is drinking it......very small quantities of CA taken by mouth will send you blind.....apparently it sends the fluid in the eye permanently milky.

Yeah, pretty wicked stuff while it's wet. Those fumes are a give-away.



I don't find stuff running thru timber a problem.....I make it work to my advantage......the shellac penetrates full thickness on the first application....if you are thinking about impregnation and stabilisation...this is a good thing.

I'm pretty sure that the Meranti bowls gained a fair bit of weight by the time the WOP had completely filled the pores. Sort of wish I'd weighed them before and after. I don't find it a problem either. It just caught me off-guard the first time it happened.



As for places to buy CA and a few other thing ..try hobby king.

Thanks for the tip. I'll check them out shortly. I've been buying a little bottle from Carbatec every few weeks.

[MikeLee]

My neighbor in Mackay showed me his timber coating made from white polystyrene foam, dissolved in thinners until it turns to a liquid. He told me to add foam until it becomes a paint type liquid and showed me examples. I used it a bit for exterior timber and it seemed to work ok. I think if it was made to a thinner consistency it would do a similar think to CA. I have used CA when I was making knives on the handle

[soundman]

Yeh Ive brewed styro in thinners.
At one time I got a lot of product packaged in styrofoam.....I managed the issue by desolving it in thinners in a 20 litre drum.

When it got thick and gluggy I would use it or give to to certain people as end sealer for cut timber.

The problem with so many of these " improvsed" products is that they do not contain things like plasitcsers and UV inhibiters that make them a long term product.

Another issue is that some things no matter how much you dilute them will not penetrate and bond with timber.

Polyester resin ( as used in fiberglass) for example realy has a quite poor affinity for wood.....compare it with the modern marine epoxies and there is a world of difference.

The modern marine epoxies are specifocally designed to penetrate and bond with timber.

There is also a great variance in how various resins respond to dilution.

Shelac is a very special product....it retains its internal bonding properties over a very very wide dilution range, where other resins get to a point where dilution dramitally compromisses their performance as a resin.

There are some products that have been very well proven in this role....and lots of things have been tried.

We use acrillic, polyeurathane and nitrocelulose in paints and varnishes......ever wondered why we don't use pollystyrene.

cheers

[Sawdust Maker]

My neighbor in Mackay showed me his timber coating made from white polystyrene foam, dissolved in thinners until it turns to a liquid. He told me to add foam until it becomes a paint type liquid and showed me examples. I used it a bit for exterior timber and it seemed to work ok. I think if it was made to a thinner consistency it would do a similar think to CA. I have used CA when I was making knives on the handle

Heh I was about to ask if anyone had used polystyrene disolved in acetone?
something I'd heard about a couple of years ago but haven't had a chance to try

edit - just saw soundman's post - helpful

[Hermit]

When I was a kid, I discovered how well polystyrene foam dissolves into petrol. I had a ball slapping it onto all sorts of things around the back yard.
Bloody hard to remove, though. DAMHIKT

[Robson Valley]

Here are two things that I cannot figure out:
1. You buy unpolymerized resin/catalyst and soup it up, goop it up, for whatever you want. That's fairly
easy to manipulate for composition, properties and open time.
2. You dissolve already polymerized resin in what ever brew you like and then expect it to have the same binding properties?

I can't see the equivalent in terms of mechanical properties at the end of the day.
I don't want to throw rocks, I'd like to know how these two things compare in service.

[Hermit]

Here are two things that I cannot figure out:
1. You buy unpolymerized resin/catalyst and soup it up, goop it up, for whatever you want. That's fairly
easy to manipulate for composition, properties and open time.
2. You dissolve already polymerized resin in what ever brew you like and then expect it to have the same binding properties?

I can't see the equivalent in terms of mechanical properties at the end of the day.
I don't want to throw rocks, I'd like to know how these two things compare in service.

That's why I originally posted. I saw it on YouTube and was wondering about it's merits, not extolling them. Sounded like a good way to put perspex offcuts to good use rather than just shove them into landfill as garbage.
Simple as that.

[DaveTTC]

Loved the read. you start sone interetibg threads and get the old cogs going in the brain

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

[Hermit]

Loved the read. you start sone interetibg threads and get the old cogs going in the brain

Dave TTC
Turning Wood Into Art

Thanks Dave, when I saw the YouTube vid I thought it was an interesting idea too, worthy of posting here.
I'm not really what you'd call a greenie, but to my mind anything that we can do to reduce the amount of plastic waste going into the garbage is well worth consideration.
I don't doubt that perspex can be recycled in other ways, but local tip recycling depots just throw it into the landfill as far as I'm aware.

Same with plastic bags, unfortunately. Our local council says not to put plastic bags into the recycling bin, so they all go into landfill too. Sad.
Can we melt plastic shopping bags in solvent and use it for something?

I thought of another use for the aforementioned polystyrene foam earlier, too, woodturning-related, but I'll keep it to myself until I've tried it.

[rob streeper]

Here are two things that I cannot figure out:
1. You buy unpolymerized resin/catalyst and soup it up, goop it up, for whatever you want. That's fairly
easy to manipulate for composition, properties and open time.
2. You dissolve already polymerized resin in what ever brew you like and then expect it to have the same binding properties?

I can't see the equivalent in terms of mechanical properties at the end of the day.
I don't want to throw rocks, I'd like to know how these two things compare in service.

I'll give you an anecdote. In the recent pair of Jatoba handled dovetail saws I just finished I used the polycarbonate/acetone vacuum infusion technique I've developed. While I was buffing one of the handles the buffer grabbed it away from me and it went straight down onto a concrete surface. From the sound I was sure it was broken. After I found it (it bounced a couple of times) I noted that it had a small dent on the lower rearward facing horn of the handle that was easily corrected. No splits or cracks appeared.
In mesquite, which is fairly porous, I've found that my technique pushes the polymer solution in between 3mm across the grain and 5 mm along the grain from the outer surface with a 10 minute treatment.

[soundman]

On the matter of polermerised resins.

Not all resins are polimers.

and various resins can be produced and manipulated in different ways....and there are different forms of some resins that behave differently.

A resin may be produced my mixing a selection of reactive components.....we may obtian said resin in an unmixed form or in finished form.......some such resins or similar ones may then either desolve in solvent.....or be melted.....to be worked in a different manner.

But the variety of properties and behaviour of resins is vast.

polystyrene for example is initally produced by reacting mixed chemicals and will most definitely disolve in a range of common solvents.

Most epoxies on the other hand once mixed will not redily disolve in solvents and will not melt in a reusable way.

then there are thermo setting resins....that once heated and cured remain solid......thermo plastic resins on the other had well soften and melt at any time.

Knowing the behaviour of the particular resin you are working with can be massivly advantageous.

cheers

[Hermit]

It's a little off-topic, but can anyone confirm or deny whether Woolworths shopping bags are made from HDPE?

After a bit of searching, I'm reasonably sure that they are, but not positive.

I've been saving HDPE to melt down into blocks for woodplastic turning.
It'd be great if WW bags could be used as well, despite their bland colour.
Hair conditioner and shampoo bottles are ideal - they come in a good range of colours. Plastic 2 litre milk bottles and white vinegar bottles etc are good for their translucence, too.

Maybe I am a greenie after all. :D

Edit: A couple of interesting and inspiring proof-of-concept pics. The jug lid, bowl and ladle handle are moulded, the pulley is moulded then turned:
(All from the Atomic Shrimp (http://www.atomicshrimp.com/st/content/plastic_moulding_2/) website.)

335547335546

335545 335548

[soundman]

My understanding is that many plastic bags are indeed made of PE.....but it is a softer lower density product than what some bottles are made of.

remember bottles are commonly made of two materials PET and HDPE.

cheers

[Hermit]

My understanding is that many plastic bags are indeed made of PE.....but it is a softer lower density product than what some bottles are made of.

remember bottles are commonly made of two materials PET and HDPE.

cheers

Thanks for that soundman. I'll avoid the Woolies bags, I think, to keep the quality higher. Pity, I have tons of them.

I'm sorting bottles and lids carefully and only using the ones clearly marked with a '2' in a triangle, usually also labelled 'HDPE' as well. I don't want my blanks corrupted with PET, PP or LDPE. Just the good stuff.

Edit: I think I can come up with something a little better than a sandwich maker, too. I'll use the oven, pre-heated. I have an accurate temp probe to suit my DMM, so I can get the temp right without a problem.