Lacquer spraying sequence

[Gazza]

Hi all,

I am about to put the finish on an entertainment unit I am preapring to assemble now.

I am thinking of spraying it with 30% Mirotone PC3220 Mirocat Clear pre-catalysed laquer. Has anyone used this product before ?

First I will stain it with Mirostain 2013 Antique Baltic colour.

I have never sprayed anything before so I am not sure in what sequence to do the spraying.

Should I stand it upright and then go all the way around it and the inside and then turn it over to get to the bottom of the shelves, etc.
OR is there a better way.

Does anyone have any suggestions, etc.
I intend to spray it outside as I don't have a spray booth and it is dust free in less than 10 minutes.

[Richardwoodhead]

Gazza you're a brave man. Jumping into the deep end attempting to spray a cabinet as a first spray project. Lacquer spray finishes are fantastic, but even with years of experience, they can still be tricky, for me anyway.

A few recommendations....

. Read up all you can on spraying techniques and trouble shooting. Check the archives in this bulletin board. Also, contact your local Mirotone rep and have him e-mail to you a copy of their spraying guide. I got one from Mirotone in WA.

. Try to find someone who's experienced with spraying (furniture finishing shop, car repair shop) and ask to watch them. There is a technique to it. And vertical surfaces, edges, require care compared with flat table tops. Also gun settings (amount of air, amount of fluid, spray cone) have a big impact on the quality of finish. As can the air pressure from your compressor. You don't want it blasting out at 100 psi.

. Have a practice run on something other than your entertainment unit. Even if it's just sanded boards. Stand them vertical and get a sense of what it takes to get a nice even coat.

. Wear a respirator. Even if outside, you don't need to breath in all the fumes. And pick a day without flying bugs! They love to dive-bomb onto the workpiece just as you've finished.

Good luck with it.

Richard

[Harry72]

One thing I've found with spraying inside of cabinets, leave the back off until you've coated the insides... saves getting blow back and it gives a more even coat.

fast drying lac is easy to spray, build it up with light coats and not heavy coats, on a large cabinet by the time you get to the end you can start on the next coat straight away. Do two coats at a time, four coats is plenty thickness.
overspray is a problem with fast lac, pays to have a well draughted/open area to avoid this other wise you end up with a dusty feeling to touch finish.

[soundman]

I'm still on a learning curve with the mirotone stuff as wee speak.
Make sure you have the appropriate stain for what you wnat to do.
I've just had the top coat pull almost all the stain out of a job I'm doing at the moment.
seems I have the incorrect stain for what I'm trying to do.
Do try out a test piece of the same material. Think about using one of the slower thinners. It will help you get arround the unit.

If it comes apart easily spray the bits seperately.

cheers

[Gazza]

I'm still on a learning curve with the mirotone stuff as wee speak.
Make sure you have the appropriate stain for what you wnat to do.
I've just had the top coat pull almost all the stain out of a job I'm doing at the moment.
seems I have the incorrect stain for what I'm trying to do.
Do try out a test piece of the same material.

Hi Soundman,

I am planning to use 30% Mirotone PC3220 Mirocat Clear pre-catalysed laquer
with the stain noted in the product sheet which is Mirostain 2013 Antique Baltic stain.

Did you use either of these products ?
Do you spray in a booth or outside ?
I am planning to spray outside as I don't have a boot.
Have you found the "dust free" time to be as short as what they claim ?

Thanks
Gary

[bitingmidge]

After the OWE at the Major's early this year, I've been happily using NC lacquer: Mirotone 3210

I'm not sure, but I understand the main difference is that using Non Catalised stuff, successive coats build into the preceding ones (like using shellac) and this has certainly been a turning point for me in terms of getting a reasonable finish!

What preparation do you need between coats with the PC ones?

We need a comment from the Major!!

Cheers,

P

[MajorPanic]

Well, thanks for the intro Midge :p

When I started to spray I went & had a chat with one of Mirotone's tech reps.
He advocated I use 3220, which I did. I wasn't happy with the results :mad:

I then went off to talk to a mate who is a furniture maker & asked him what he used. He was the gent who put me on to 3210 & I've had good results since. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif
Here is the product discription of both products;

MIROCAT PC 3220 Clear Lacquer

Description
A premier grade, high build, user friendly, precatalysed
clear lacquer used for fixture and furniture
finishing. Formulated to provide a full bodied grain
filling finish with excellent surface hardness, smooth
feel, mar resistance and minimum sink back
features. Contains ultraviolet light blocker’s to help
prevent premature substrate discolourisation.
Suitable for application as a Sealer-Topcoat over
timber or timber veneer. For interior use only.


MIROCAT PC 3210 CLEAR LACQUER

Description
A superior grade, high build, user friendly, single
pack, clear, pre-catalysed lacquer used for fixture
and furniture finishing. MIROCAT PC 3210 Clear
lacquer is formulated to provide a full bodied, grain
filling finish with superb surface hardness and
smooth feel plus exceptional flow and minimum sink
back features.

[Gazza]

Hi Major,

Other than the UV light blocker and use a a self sealer there does not seem to be much difference between the 3220 & 3210.

I was going to use the 3220 because it is available in 4litre cans locally.

What was the problem you had with the 3220 ?

Do you know what is the main difference between the NC range of Nitrocelulose Laquer and the PC range of Pre-catalist laquers ?

The NC range are only available in 20litre drums locally.

[gatiep]

Well, thanks for the intro Midge :p

When I started to spray I went & had a chat with one of Mirotone's tech reps.
He advocated I use 3220, which I did. I wasn't happy with the results :mad:

I then went off to talk to a mate who is a furniture maker & asked him what he used. He was the gent who put me on to 3210 & I've had good results since. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif
Here is the product discription of both products;

MIROCAT PC 3220 Clear Lacquer

Description
A premier grade, high build, user friendly, precatalysed
clear lacquer used for fixture and furniture
finishing. Formulated to provide a full bodied grain
filling finish with excellent surface hardness, smooth
feel, mar resistance and minimum sink back
features. Contains ultraviolet light blocker’s to help
prevent premature substrate discolourisation.
Suitable for application as a Sealer-Topcoat over
timber or timber veneer. For interior use only.


MIROCAT PC 3210 CLEAR LACQUER

Description
A superior grade, high build, user friendly, single
pack, clear, pre-catalysed lacquer used for fixture
and furniture finishing. MIROCAT PC 3210 Clear
lacquer is formulated to provide a full bodied, grain
filling finish with superb surface hardness and
smooth feel plus exceptional flow and minimum sink
back features.

From the above they both seem to be precatalysed. Now I'm more :confused: than ever. Somebody please shed some light as I want to use Nitro C finish on the next harp.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

[RETIRED]

This might help.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=485&highlight=Chux

[MajorPanic]

Hi Major,

Other than the UV light blocker and use a a self sealer there does not seem to be much difference between the 3220 & 3210.

I was going to use the 3220 because it is available in 4litre cans locally.

What was the problem you had with the 3220 ?

Do you know what is the main difference between the NC range of Nitrocelulose Laquer and the PC range of Pre-catalist laquers ?

The NC range are only available in 20litre drums locally.
Hey Gazza,

I found that with 3220 there was a marked difference between coats & each coat needed very careful application. :(
Although the 3210 is a pre-cat lacquer it seems to behave more like a N/C finish. By this I mean it seems to 'melt' into the previous layer.
In short I found easier to use. :D :D
Have a read of the link to the other thread posted by . Between he & Shane Watson there is all the spray finishing knowledge you would need to know & they are only too happy to help!!!!! http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Gazza]

I am trying to understand the difference between (NC) Nitro Cellulose and (PC) Pre-Catalyst Laquers.

From the Mirotone site:
(PC3210)
A superior grade, high build, user friendly, single
pack, clear, pre-catalysed lacquer used for fixture
and furniture finishing. MIROCAT PC 3210 Clear
lacquer is formulated to provide a full bodied, grain
filling finish with superb surface hardness and
smooth feel plus exceptional flow and minimum sink
back features.

(PC3220)
A premier grade, high build, user friendly, precatalysed
clear lacquer used for fixture and furniture
finishing. Formulated to provide a full bodied grain
filling finish with excellent surface hardness, smooth
feel, mar resistance and minimum sink back
features. Contains ultraviolet light blocker’s to help
prevent premature substrate discolourisation.
Suitable for application as a Sealer-Topcoat over
timber or timber veneer. For interior use only.

(NC3150)
A fast drying, single-pack, pigmented, nitrocellulose lacquer topcoat used for fixture and furniture finishing. MIROLAC NC 3150 Lacquer is formulated to provide a timber finish of high build and good durability with a smooth feel off the gun. Specifically formulated for use over MIROLAC NC 3130 Undercoat. For interior use only.

I STILL DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE TO USE
Is anyone able to give a definitive description of the differences and advantages/disadvantages over using a PC or NC laquer both in terms of ease of use and servicability.

[Gazza]

After the OWE at the Major's early this year, I've been happily using NC lacquer: Mirotone 3210


Hi bitingmidge,

Can you please tell me what the shelf life of a can of PC3210 is after you have opened it ?

I have just read on a website that most pre-catalyst laquers only have a shelf life of up to 48hrs once the can has been opened.

Is this true ?
Could be expensive if so as the smallest can I can buy is 4 litres.

[bitingmidge]

I don't know is the short answer.

My last can was open for about three months and had NO sign of deterioration.

The current one is about half full and two months or more and NO sign of a problem. I do give the thing a bit of a swirl to "wet" the seal after putting the lid on, but that's probably a bit of an old wive's tale as well.

Sounds to me like the advice relates to a two pack type of product?

Cheers,

P

[RETIRED]

I am trying to understand the difference between (NC) Nitro Cellulose and (PC) Pre-Catalyst Laquers.


I STILL DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE TO USE
Is anyone able to give a definitive description of the differences and advantages/disadvantages over using a PC or NC laquer both in terms of ease of use and servicability.
I am not 100% sure but:

I think that all lacquers denoted as nitro cellulose are quick drying using thinners as their base rather than an oil or turps based lacquer, varnish or polyurethane.

Pre cat is a one pot mix that relies on evaporation of the carrier to dry. Acid catylist or any others are a 2 pot mix that rely on a chemical reaction to dry.

2 pot mixes are generally harder wearing than single pot but require some skill in getting the mix right or you can end up with a horrible mess. DAMHIK. :)

Pre cat is easier to use in as much that you open the can, put it in a gun and spray it basically.

[RETIRED]

Look here as well.

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Lacquer
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/nitrocellulose

[JB]

Gazza

If NC lacquers are only available to you in 40 litres then that rules that product out.

Ditto PC3210 pre-cat lacquer.

PC3220 is basically the same as PC3210 but costs a few dollars more. I recently swapped to PC3220 when PC3210 was no longer available in 4 litre tins. The finish seems much the same.

PC3210 and PC3220 are both usually touch dry in less than one minute.

Shelving units where flat components meet each other at right angles are among the hardest furniture items to spray finish. Spray disassembled as separate components where possible. Practice on some scrap nailed together at right angles. Thin the lacquer between 20 and 30%. Keep the gun moving.

[journeyman Mick]

Gazza,
I recently finished a 4litre tin of lacquer which was about 5 years old (decanted out of a 20l drum). As long as you seal the tin after use it seems to last almost indefinitely. Here's the secret to keeping the tins sealing well:
Before decanting any lacquer out of the tin remove the lid and either punch or drill about a dozen holes in the "gutter" part of the lip. This allows the lacqer to drain back into the tin rather than sitting in the lip and solidifying, which will prevent the tin closing properly. After you've poured the lacquer into the gun use the tip of a rag to coax any lacquer down the holes and wipe the gutter clean. I prefer using a sharp 3" nail and punching so as not to get any swarf in the lacquer.

BTW,
Shelf life = how long product will last unopened on the shelf
Pot life = how long a working time you have once product is in the spray gun, and mixed with catalyst, if it's a 2pak. This can be extended by placing the mixed product in the freezer during breaks. With epoxy 2paks you'll get overnight but with poyurethane 2paks they'll still go off in a few hours.

Mick

[MajorPanic]

PC3220 is basically the same as PC3210 but costs a few dollars more. I recently swapped to PC3220 when PC3210 was no longer available in 4 litre tins.

That seems funny as I bought 5 X 4ltr tins of 3210 from Mirotone @ Wacol only a week & a half ago.

3210 has better fade resistant qualities & will stand 'some' direct sunlight.

It also uses slightly different driers, I was told this by a rep, but I can't see any difference.

As Mick has stated opened tin life is long, for me it was about 9 months with almost a full pot left in a gun. It seemed to spray & dry fine, that's all I can say.

[RETIRED]

Gazza,
I recently finished a 4litre tin of lacquer which was about 5 years old (decanted out of a 20l drum). As long as you seal the tin after use it seems to last almost indefinitely. Here's the secret to keeping the tins sealing well:
Before decanting any lacquer out of the tin remove the lid and either punch or drill about a dozen holes in the "gutter" part of the lip. This allows the lacqer to drain back into the tin rather than sitting in the lip and solidifying, which will prevent the tin closing properly. After you've poured the lacquer into the gun use the tip of a rag to coax any lacquer down the holes and wipe the gutter clean. I prefer using a sharp 3" nail and punching so as not to get any swarf in the lacquer.

BTW,
Shelf life = how long product will last unopened on the shelf
Pot life = how long a working time you have once product is in the spray gun, and mixed with catalyst, if it's a 2pak. This can be extended by placing the mixed product in the freezer during breaks. With epoxy 2paks you'll get overnight but with poyurethane 2paks they'll still go off in a few hours.

Mick
Ditto.

[Gazza]

Hi evryone and thanks for all the information,

I went all over Perth on Saturday morning but could not find a stockist of Mirotone lacquers. I didn't think to ring around first as I thought it would be easy to get!

I ended up buying a 4l can of Protec Pre-Catalysed Lacquer from Timbecon which the saleman assured my was just repackaged Mirotone.

He also suggested I thin it 1:1 with their special thinners :confused: and could even go 2:1 (2 parts thinners, 1 part lacquer) :confused: :confused:

Mirotone product sheets state that you should only thin up to 10%, so maybe this is not what the salesman said it is.

There are no details on the can at all and they could not provide a datasheet.
Can anyone help out with any information regarding the Protec Pre-catalysed Lacquer from Timbecon?

Information such as thinning, application & drying details would be great, or if anyone has or knows where to get a data sheet from.

Thanks.

[MajorPanic]

Hi ya Gazza,

You can get all the Mirotone data sheets ya want HERE ;) (http://www.mirotone.co.nz/productspecs-art.html)

I can't see thining by 1:1 or even 2:1 is possible with Mirotone products!

[JB]

Gazza

Mirotone is supplied direct from the company at their outlet in each state. Here's the link from their webpage with the Perth address and phone number:
http://www.mirotone.com.au/locat.htm

If it's not too late I'd take that tin of Protec pre-cat back where you got it. As far as I know Protec is a paint manufacturing company in South Australia and no relation to Mirotone.

You need a product with a comprehensive data sheet and most importantly an 1800 phone number to answer queries when things go wrong with lacquering as they inevitably do. Technical staff can advise you on changing to slower/fastr drying lacquers, using different products etc. They've got me out of many a sticky situation.

The Mirotone data sheet I have for PC3220 says you can thin this pre-cat product up to 20%. their technical staff say 25% is okay. I have successfully thinned it up to 30% and wouldn't hesiatate to thin it up to 50%. Maybe even higher; it's just an evaporative agent. I may be wrong on this.

[gatiep]

Hi evryone and thanks for all the information,

I went all over Perth on Saturday morning but could not find a stockist of Mirotone lacquers. I didn't think to ring around first as I thought it would be easy to get!

I ended up buying a 4l can of Protec Pre-Catalysed Lacquer from Timbecon which the saleman assured my was just repackaged Mirotone.


Thanks.Gazza it's obvious that you didn't go all over Perth, ( :D ) because I saw some at Carbatec today ( Monday ). They had full gloss, 60% and 30% in 4 L containers. I will actually be getting some for my next harp, for wich I picked up some W.A. Sheoak from them on Friday. They also phoned the suppliers for me as I was hoping to get some 3210 in smaller packs than 20 L, but unfortunately they don't supply it in smaller packs. Maybe it's a good idea to let your fingers do the walking as fuel is almost as expensive as Mirotone.

Hope that Protec stuff is the same for you, but I don't know it.

:o

Attached is a Mirotone 3220 spec sheet

[Gazza]

Gazza it's obvious that you didn't go all over Perth, ( :D ) because I saw some at Carbatec today ( Monday ). They had full gloss, 60% and 30% in 4 L containers.

Hi,

Well, I may have stretched the truth a little I suppose, but it felt like I had driven a hundred miles, :rolleyes: I did go to Carbartec on Saturday morning as they are close to me but all I saw on their shelf was a couple of 4L cans of 3240 sanding sealer ???

I rang the Mirotone suppliers in perth here but they don't open on Saturday mornings so it is impossible for me to go during the day, carbatec pricing is over $30 a can more than direct from them!

[Gazza]

If it's not too late I'd take that tin of Protec pre-cat back where you got it. As far as I know Protec is a paint manufacturing company in South Australia and no relation to Mirotone.


I have managed to track down the agents here in WA for Protec, (no thanks to Timbecon) and they are faxing me a data sheet, they also have a full range of stains, etc for their lacquers so I will wait until I get more information and see where I go from there.

EDIT:
Protec just faxed me the data sheets and they read almost identical to the Mirotone ones. Seeing as I have already purchased it I might as well give it a go. I am going to their shop in Welshpool on Saturday to get some of their stain as well.