Subisidising healthcare for the elderly :(

[LineLefty]

Thats right, I calculated my tax return on 'the back of the envelope' and was expecting approximately $1400 back. Thats a nice little nest egg for perhaps a new bandsaw or jointer/thicknesser, plus few LV goodies.

But no, when I actually did my tax, I got slugged with the bloody medicare levy. $890!
No, I dont have private health insurance, but that doesnt make me a burden on the medicare budget and I shouldnt have to bloody subisidise the baby boomers and elderley!!

Perhaps they should include a question such as "how many times did you visit the doctors?".

Apologies if this offends. It's just a lighthearted whinge OK? THe whole budget of $400 is now going to help pay for a new washing machine. Not a cent left over for some toys :(

[silentC]

You're not 'government bashing' are you, Adam?

You should know that the Medicare levy has nothing whatsoever to do with Medicare. It's just another source of government funds.

[goat]

psssst adam i'll let u in on a little secret of mine last year i got sick of the missus thinkin of new ways of spending my tax check so unbeknowns to her i started paying $20 a week extra tax so tomorrow i'll have $1040 "PLAY DOLLARS" that she don't know about.just don't tell the old bag ok!:D shhhhhhhhhhhhh here she comes ;)

[LineLefty]

You've got a sharp memory SilentC, I am government bashing, but I'm justified in doing so. ;)

Goat, shes got such a stranglehold on the familiy fiduciaries, She would certainly notice a 14inch bandsaw sitting in the shed. I dont think I could use the old 'that? I've had it for ages' trick.

[Gingermick]

Just think of it as saving money to pay for the operation to re-attach your fingers after you cut them off with the band saw you get as a retirement present.
:D
And if you want to avoid the medicare levy, just have a few more children.

[Termite]

Yes, thats right, climb on the latest bandwagon of blaming everything on the Babyboomers. Well young fellow, it was the Babyboomers that helped make the country you have today, and we did it without the dole and a lot of other benefits that you enjoy today.
One of the main reasons we get slugged these days is that a lot of, call them what you will, decide they just dont want to work, or the female counterpart decides to make a career out of having kids by any available male.
So I'll end now before I get real wound up about my generation being the cause of all our countrys ills, and by the way I have a right to get old. Strange as it may seem to the younger generation, they will get old too. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Nothing personal intended.

[Grunt]

Adam,

One day you will be old* and need medicare. The young folk of the day will be complaining that the old folk are a burden on society.

Getting old creeps up on you. Just the other day, I was 27 and now I'm 44. In 14 1/2 years I'll be Termites age. My how time flies when your having fun.


* that is if Termite doesn't get to you first

[echnidna]

Adam,

One day you will be old* and need medicare. The young folk of the day will be complaining that the old folk are a burden on society.

Getting old creeps up on you. Just the other day, I was 27 and now I'm 44. In 14 1/2 years I'll be Termites age. My how time flies when your having fun.


* that is if Termite doesn't get to you first

To add to Grunts points.
But for the grace of God anyone can have an accident etc and become permanently disabled thus needing medicare and welfare support

[adrian]

Not this again :rolleyes:

The user pays principle in the medical area is great. :rolleyes: A friend of mine went to what we would call outpatients, at a Brooklyn (US) hospital and got a bill for $10,000. That was for a day visit.
Both of my granddaughtes were born in the same hospital and I wasn't game to ask what that cost.
Lefty, you're going to be old some day soon and when you, or a member of your family, have to be rushed off to hospital you're going to be glad that you contributed.

PS. I pay for full private cover and pay the levy and the only time I've ever complained was when I paid $3600 for the levy and surcharge.
You got of light paying only $890. I pay double that for private and the levy.

[adrian]

Adam,

One day you will be old* and need medicare. The young folk of the day will be complaining that the old folk are a burden on society.

Getting old creeps up on you. Just the other day, I was 27 and now I'm 44. In 14 1/2 years I'll be Termites age. My how time flies when your having fun.


* that is if Termite doesn't get to you first

I was 34 yesterday and today I'm 53. It's bloody scarey.

[craigb]

I was 34 yesterday and today I'm 53. It's bloody scarey.

I think that "old timers disease" is kicking in early. :D

Your profile says you are only 52 :eek: :D

[Termite]

I was 34 yesterday and today I'm 53. It's bloody scarey.
I know the feeling. I moved back from the Phillipines yesterday, so how come I'm 25 years older today?

[LineLefty]

Yeah Ok I get your points about the levy, user pays would just never work, it's just that I was really looking forward to that bandsaw....................

Termite, we should stop blaming all societal ills on dole bludgers and shazza single mums with their 5 kids. As prevelant as they are in some parts, they're a pretty small minority.

The "problem" is all you baby boomers outbidding us young'uns in the real estate market. Here we are trying to buy our 1st home blah blah blah and there you all are gazumping us for your bloody investment properties. Yes ,thats the biggest problem we have here in 'Straya.

In all seriousness though, I'd esitmate that 90% of quality vintage handtools are owned by baby boomers, which means when I get to that age.......................there'll be a hell of a lot of deceased estate auctions and not much demand for galootish tools. :o

[Tikki]

The "me generation"! :rolleyes: (no offence meant)

You're lucky you can afford the luxury of a washing machine Adam. Many of the elderly you are subsidizing only had washboards!

[Termite]

In all seriousness though, I'd esitmate that 90% of quality vintage handtools are owned by baby boomers, which means when I get to that age.......................there'll be a hell of a lot of deceased estate auctions and not much demand for galootish tools. :o
See, we do have our good points.
Just by the way, get hold of the figures for the dole payments to under 21 year olds and the payments to single mums under 21. You will spew when you see how much it is.

[Daddles]

I don't even want to THINK about the number of my handtools that Dad inherited from Grandpa, finished wearing out and then handed on to me :rolleyes:

Richard

[bitingmidge]

Lefty,

I'll give you the bad news: the injustice of it all gets worse as you get older, (and you start to earn more money).

As a VERY young baby boomer, can I just tell you that apart from paying for private health services, I pay enough Medicare levy to fund a small hospital.

I pay for my own health services (as do a lot of we older fellas) and MY Medicare funding gets wasted on fixing the Social Diseases picked up by your mates mis-spending their youth, kids in their twenties having babies, and of course vasectomies....

Hope that makes you feel better!!! (No consultation fee required).

Oh! BTW there is a big movement afoot among the galoots to be buried with their tools, so they can have access to them in the afterlife, so don't count too much on those deceased estates!


Cheers,

P
:D :D :D :D

[craigb]

Lefty,

I'll give you the bad news: the injustice of it all gets worse as you get older, (and start to earn more money).

As a VERY young baby boomer, can I just tell you that apart from paying for private health services, I pay enough Medicare levy to fund a small hospital.

I pay for my own health services (as do a lot of we older fellas) and MY Medicare funding gets wasted on fixing the Social Diseases picked up by your mates mis-spending their youth, kids in their twenties having babies, and of course vasectomies....

Hope that makes you feel better!!! (No consultation fee requried).

Oh! BTW there is a big movement afoot among the galoots to be buried with their tools, so they can have access to them in the afterlife, so don't count too much on those deceased estates!


Cheers,

P
:D :D :D :D


Midge,

I'd give you a greenie if I could :D :D :D

[Redback]

Well theres also this to look forward too...

The current demographics are like an inverted pyramid...

Basically that means there are a lot more 'older' folk than younger..

As the baby boomers start retiring in bulk, not only will we have the cashed up ones driving up property prices, but we will have those who blow their load or have no savings becoming dependent on welfare. Guess where that money is going to come from...

This is why the government introduced compulsory super back in the 90's. For most people it is too little too late though.

And also, since we all have this lump sum payment mentality, theres nothing stopping the stupid or irresponsible wasting the lot when they receive it....

Expect ever increasing demands on the governments tax dollars over the next 10 years.... :(


RB

[Stylesy]

Lefty,

I too took your view (and still do around tax time usually), mainly due to the fact that as I earn just over the $50K mark, with little deductions (no dependants, etc) and no private health cover (being under 31 and fit) I get slugged the extra 1% - effectively taking at least an extra $500.

Then I felt sick one day, ended up in hospital for an appendectomy. Surgery, 4 days in hospital, associated costs, follow-up checks etc - all paid for by Medicare. I really haven't complained too much since then (except for around this time of the year :rolleyes: ). Swings and roundabouts, I've discovered.

[adrian]

I think that "old timers disease" is kicking in early. :D

Your profile says you are only 52 :eek: :D
I tend not to keep track of birthdays so I just take the start date away from the current date and get 53. Sad isn't it.
But you are right about the 'old timers disease'. How many times have you gone into a room and forgotten what you went in there for, tried to think what it was and then left the room and forgot what you were doing in the first place.
There was a joke that was circulating around the internet about that and I nodded at the end of every line.
I used to laugh wnen my mother told me she did that a lot and now when we talk on the phone we each find it necessary to say "now what was I going to say," about a dozen times.

[Rocker]

As a VERY young baby boomer .....



Peter,

Have you looked in the mirror lately?

Lefty,

It brought a smile to my lips to see an avowed socialist whingeing about taxes, just like us capitalist beasts.

Rocker

[Gingermick]

See, we do have our good points.
Just by the way, get hold of the figures for the dole payments to under 21 year olds and the payments to single mums under 21. You will spew when you see how much it is.
I'll wager that it's near the figure spent trying to take income support away from disabled persons.

[outback]

When I was a boy..............................................................................................................................................................

[E. maculata]

Another problem with getting old is we often lose the ability to empathise with others then we race each other to see who can get as far right of Genghis Khan and Adolf H as possible in the shortest time possible, check out some of our "journalists" & (un)popular radio talkback hosts changeling opinions over the years for further clarification. :D :D :D :D :p
This is just a little thing I've noticed about the formerly liberal minded "baby Boomers" you know they were the long haired hippies with a "hell no we won't go" attitude and spines of titanium when it came to social justice in days gone by.

[doug the slug]

Midge,

I'd give you a greenie if I could :D :D :D
its ok craig i gave him one anyway

DOug

[kiwigeo]

Lefty I hear where youre coming from but look at it this way.....youre 26 now and youre subsidising the oldies like me but in 30 years time when your body is starting to fall apart like mine is, your health care will be subsidised by youngsters 30 years younger than you.

Think of it as a modern version of the old fashioned concept of looking after your elders :)

[kiwigeo]

In all seriousness though, I'd esitmate that 90% of quality vintage handtools are owned by baby boomers, which means when I get to that age.......................there'll be a hell of a lot of deceased estate auctions and not much demand for galootish tools. :o

Lefty....if you start stocking up on brand new Lie Nielsen hand tools NOW...by the time youre 65 youll be the proud owner of a huge workshop full of "vintage" tools.

[Dendot]

I was going to add some really pithy and relevant points to this discussion- but I forgot what they were.....

[Dendot]

I was going to add some really pithy and relevant comments to this post-
But I forgot what they were...

[powderpost]

Linelefty, I hope you have the good fortune to reach our age without needing too much subsidised medical help.

Jim

[Clinton1]

Of course we could go to a user pays system - must remember to get the missus pregnant 9 months prior to winter. I can expose the child if it looks sickly and may cost too much in hospital fees. :rolleyes:

[routermaniac]

Whether we accept it or not we have one of the best health systems in the world. If it means one less bandsaw every year to provide equitable medical care to those that need it its a very small price to pay.

I see nothing wrong with us in the late 20s, early thirties to have to fund this. At the end of the day a significant number of young people are perfectly happy wasting their money on total crap; this (the levy) is a small sacrifice for many (not all, point taken).

Also 90% of total health expenditure is spent during the last 10 years of ones life. We cannot expect 70 and 80 year olds to have to fork out for this.

So agree, lifes tough but it could be worse

regards

Marios

[echnidna]

The feds just closed 2 sheltered workshops down this way because they don't think these 2 sheltered workshops can ever be run at a profit.
So much for having a caring government to look after the needy.

[Iain]

They have been running at a profit (or supposed to) for a number of years now.
I went to use one for packaging once and they just lost the plot, about 95c per item as opposed to 7c for an independent operator who was doing very nicely thankyou.
Something horribly amiss there.

[echnidna]

Most of the sheltered workshop managers have human services type training not corporate training.

[Jack E]

Whether we accept it or not we have one of the best health systems in the world. If it means one less bandsaw every year to provide equitable medical care to those that need it its a very small price to pay.

For some of us the Medicare levy and surcharge equals a whole lot more than the cost of a bandsaw. :( :( :(

Yes I do believe in a fair medical system and fair to me means equality, not only in the cover provided but in the cost of the cover :mad:

Jack

[Daddles]

For some of us the Medicare levy and surcharge equals a whole lot more than the cost of a bandsaw. :( :( :(

Yes I do believe in a fair medical system and fair to me means equality, not only in the cover provided but in the cost of the cover :mad:

Jack

An interesting attitude Jack. Let's say two blokes work for the same firm. And let's imagine that this firm deals with something really horrible, only they didn't know it, and they both wind up with a horrible disease ... say cancer (being a disease willing to be involved in just about all mankind's stuff ups).

Now let's say that bloke A earns enough so that his Medicare levy is far more than the cost of a top of the line bandsaw - perhaps because he's in management at some level, having worked his way up from the production line. Which is useful because bloke B still works on that production line and his Medicare levy is about the same cost as that second hand bandsaw he was drooling over in the garage sale last week.

You're suggesting that bloke A deserves more effective treatment than bloke B.

I'm sorry, I don't agree.

I do agree that bloke B shouldn't expect all the fancy extras that bloke A should be able to buy through the health fun that bloke A also pays into (choice of doctor, private room, a blonde shift of nurses followed by a brunette shift, etc). BUT, both of them, as members of our community, deserve to have access to good quality, appropriate health care.

Put money before people, and you wind up with a sad and sick society. And, as always, the trick is in getting the balance right.

Cheers
Richard

[Jack E]

You're suggesting that bloke A deserves more effective treatment than bloke B.

Richard,

You may need to re-read my post.

I am suggesting that bloke A and bloke B get the same level of care and pay the same amount for it.

We can all pay the same amount for the basic level of care, not dependant on how much earn.
If people want a better level of care then they can pay private health for that.
My original post was actually intended to highlight the fact that some people pay a whole lot more in to medicare than others for the same service.

Fair, I don't think so.

Jack.

[Gingermick]

Put money before people, and you wind up with a sad and sick society.
There is a very powerful society that sounds much like that one.

And Jack, do you think that any person who earns a high income would be in his/her posittion were it not for the society they live in?
Sure, you can be a highly motivated go-getter, but if you live in a third world country the top of the chain would still be pittance.
If you are successful in a society you have an obligation to that society. If you are a failure, you also have an obligation.
If societies didn't work this way they would never hold together.

And if you want to minimise your Medicare Levy have more children

[Daddles]

Ahh Jack, if I've misunderstood you (and I did read your post a couple of times, and again after your post), I apologise. However, you fail in that you assume that everyone can afford to fund a basic health system while paying the same amount. Sorry mate, it's not possible, and that is one of the reasons Medicare has failed to deliver. Another cause is the increasing cost of health care - no, not nurse's wages or doctor's fees, but the cost and type of machinery required, the ever increasing number of tests and complexity of such. I think you'll find that neither you nor I could fund what is now considered basic health care.

Cheers
Richard

[adrian]

You've lost sight of the fact that the medicare levy and the surcharge are taxes and are the same percentages for everyone. If it wasn't called the Medicare Levy/Surcharge and was just part of the normal income tax we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
These are approximate figures I'm using but one thing to keep in mind is that when the Levy was introduced, a person on the 17% tax rate had their tax increased by 9% when the 1.5% was added, a person on the 30% rate had an increase of 5% and a person on 47% had a 3% increase in tax. That's a pretty eqitable way to share the cost.
Anyway, we've got a good system and can anyone think of a country they'd rather be in at the moment?
I've been to a lot of them and I can't think of one I would want to spend more than a couple of weeks in.
Maybe we should put it into perspective and sit in front of our computers, in our nice warm homes, after a steak dinner and click our fingers every three seconds. It's never likely to be one of our kids starving to death on each click.
Life just isn't that bad for us.

[Ashore]

I have read through these posts and until now resisted the impulse to add my thoughts
BUT Start of Rave

Health costs are only one part of our tax structure and each generations tax add to the overall
To pick health care and say " why should we ( as younger people who don't use the system as much as the older generation do) have to pay a high medcare levy"
Who paid for your schools and in some cases universities you were edcuated in ,who's taxes subsidised you childhood imunisation programs or the hospitals you were born in who payed the taxes that built the roads you used to go to school.
Should we have said we are finished school cut all funding we don't need them anymore as some of the arguements "I should only pay for what I use Now in my prime of life"
Every time you step outside you are using , as I am , infrastructure paid for by previous generations
Grow up there is no free lunch and you only get out of this world what you put into it

End of Rave

[echnidna]

Brilliant point Ashore

[ozwinner]

Didnt they do the " user pays" system in Russia.

What a great success that is/was. :rolleyes:

Al

[E. maculata]

hear hear Ashore, very valid points.

[Gingermick]

Ashore, wasn't able to give you as greenie :(

[Driver]

And Jack, do you think that any person who earns a high income would be in his/her posittion were it not for the society they live in?
Sure, you can be a highly motivated go-getter, but if you live in a third world country the top of the chain would still be pittance.

Well, no it wouldn't. In many third world countries top of the tree is a helluva long way from a pittance. There was an article this week in The Australian by an African journo. His main point was that the leaders of many African nations (and it sure as hell doesn't stop at Africa) spend more each year on their Mercedes limos than most of us - the people of a rich nation - will earn in several lifetimes.


If you are successful in a society you have an obligation to that society. If you are a failure, you also have an obligation.
If societies didn't work this way they would never hold together.

Spot on. The societies that don't hold together are those where the community as a whole - and as individuals - forget their obligations to each other.

Ashore - you hit the nail fair on the head, Have a greenie!

Col

[routermaniac]

For some of us the Medicare levy and surcharge equals a whole lot more than the cost of a bandsaw. :( :( :(

Yes I do believe in a fair medical system and fair to me means equality, not only in the cover provided but in the cost of the cover :mad:

JackJack I too fork out a ridiculous amount for the levy but seeing what I see everyday as part of my job I believe it is justified.

Despite this levy a significant proportion of our society is not receiving adequate health care. I saw a patient today with severe deforming rheumatoid arthritis significantly impairing his quality of life, who was on no treatment because he couldnt afford it. This patient was in his 50s and could not dress himself, unlock a door or drive a car.

This is unacceptable in Australia and scrapping or reducing the levy will make this situation worse. I say keep it going and I would be happy if it was even increased in those subgroups that can afford to pay for it. I'm sure those that are making $200,000 a year would not miss a few extra thousand...

For the rest of us, at least you can sleep well knowing that you are contributing to the welfare of the less fortunate.

regards

Marios

[Jack E]

And Jack, do you think that any person who earns a high income would be in his/her posittion were it not for the society they live in?
Sure, you can be a highly motivated go-getter, but if you live in a third world country the top of the chain would still be pittance.
If you are successful in a society you have an obligation to that society.

If you are successful you do indeed have an obligation to society but a society such as ours gives EVERYONE an opportunity to be successful.
BTW, I am a tradesman, not management, not somebody who had a company land on their doorstep, I worked to get where I am and everyone in this great country has the opportunity to do the same, that's why it is great.


If you are a failure, you also have an obligation.

What is the obligation of failures, to be a burden on society and cause the successful to subsidise their existence.

I do acknowledge the unfortunate such as the disabled and even those who have succumbed to severe bad luck and misfortune but I think those taking advantage of the good will of our society far out weigh those who genuinely need a hand.

Jack

[Jack E]

Health costs are only one part of our tax structure and each generations tax add to the overall
To pick health care and say " why should we ( as younger people who don't use the system as much as the older generation do) have to pay a high medcare levy"
Who paid for your schools and in some cases universities you were edcuated in ,who's taxes subsidised you childhood imunisation programs or the hospitals you were born in who payed the taxes that built the roads you used to go to school.
Should we have said we are finished school cut all funding we don't need them anymore as some of the arguements "I should only pay for what I use Now in my prime of life"
Every time you step outside you are using , as I am , infrastructure paid for by previous generations

Very good points Ashore, well done :) :) :)

Jack

[Jack E]

I say keep it going and I would be happy if it was even increased in those subgroups that can afford to pay for it. I'm sure those that are making $200,000 a year would not miss a few extra thousand...

That sort of statement is where my whole gripe with the tax system as a whole comes from.
It is a poor attitude when people say "the rich will pay for it, they won't notice it".
You will more than likely find that people who have money are not the ones who are flippant with it and "a few extra thousand" matters.
Why should $1000 mean any less to a $100,000 earner than it does to a $50,000 earner. :confused: :confused: :confused:

If you were earning $40,000 and somebody who earns $20,000 said they would be happy for you to pay a whole lot more than them would you be happy?

Jack

[bitingmidge]

Grow up there is no free lunch and you only get out of this world what you put into it.
Correct!

And while I agree with those whose social consciences would have the rich paying for the poor (to paraphrase many of the above points), I think there is also a great inequity in the reverse scenario.

What about those who have lived frugal (but none the less enjoyable) lives, forgoing many of the day to day "necessities" and some pleasures for many years, carefully making provision for tomorrow, while their friends who earned as much, or more than they, were content to urinate their futures against the nearest wall or puff them up in smoke.

Why should the careful people now have to subsidise the dialysis or diabetes treatment of those who chose a self indulgent lifestyle, spending all they earnt as they earnt it?

I'm sure they are happy to contribute (or even pay totally) to the well being of those worse off through circumstance of birth or education, but why should they suffer the prejudice of more expensive health care because through careful management they have accumulated sufficient assets to live independantly???

Why are they not entitled to the same benefit as their wasteful, partygoing bretheren? Why are they denied subsidised rates, bus fairs and medication??

Why are they penalised for their careful management?

It would seem in our society, all animals are equal except the squirrels, or is it the others have paid enough in entertainment, tobacco and alcohol taxes that their medical treatment should be covered for life anyway??

Cheers,

P (Tired of hearing how tough and unfair life is today!)

:o :o :o

[Jack E]

It would seem in our society, all animals are equal except the squirrels, or is it the others have paid enough in entertainment, tobacco and alcohol taxes that their medical treatment should be covered for life anyway??

Peter,

I have probably paid more tax through entertainment, tobacco and alcohol than the average person my age aswell :D :D :D

I think we all know that nothing is going to change, in fact, like somebody has already said, it is only going to get worse.

Jack.

[bitingmidge]

have probably paid more tax through entertainment, tobacco and alcohol than the average person my age aswell So things aren't all bad then??

:D :D :D

P (Note: the above post was a Football induced rant, and the :o smilie was as close as I could get to a Maroon one!)
:D :D :D

[Jack E]

So things aren't all bad then??

:D :D :D

P (Note: the above post was a Football induced rant, and the :o smilie was as close as I could get to a Maroon one!)
:D :D :D

No, things aren't bad at all, just having a bit of a whinge about tax on a thread that I didn't start this time :D :D :D

My rants tonight are also football (with a few rums) induced.

I know you are a Queenslander Peter so why are you using smilies tonight, you just got flogged :D :D :D

[bitingmidge]

I know you are a Queenslander Peter so why are you using smilies tonight, you just got flogged :D :D :D

Different strokes!!

:D :D :D
P

[Jack E]

Are you using puns again :) :)

Jack.

[Sturdee]

This theme of the haves paying for the have nots is becoming too regular for me to get upset or to comment.

The law is very simple, if you have income you pay taxes and the greater income the greater the taxes. The medicare levy is a tax to fund government expenditure, like all other taxes and has nothing to do with health care costs. It was misnamed by politicians to make the tax more palatable. :(

If you don't like paying, get yourself a good accountant, reorganise your affairs so that you pay less but stop whinging about it. :mad:


Peter.

[Jack E]

If you don't like paying, get yourself a good accountant, reorganise your affairs so that you pay less but stop

Sturdee,

That is exactly what I and am sure most others in my situation do, doesn't help the situation though. :) :) :)

Jack.

[routermaniac]

Correct!
I'm sure they are happy to contribute (or even pay totally) to the well being of those worse off through circumstance of birth or education, but why should they suffer the prejudice of more expensive health care because through careful management they have accumulated sufficient assets to live independantly???

I do to a degree agree with your sentiments. I have worked very hard in my short 30 years to get where I am today. Migrating to Australia at age 13 I was behind the 8 ball, I had to learn the language and do it quickly if I was going to get anywhere.

This meant that when everyone else was outside having a great time I was working my backside off. Despite the odds I managed to get myself through medical school working fulltime during all but one for my uni breaks and working part-time for the rest of the year.

It does annoy me to see those on the unemployment benefit spending it at the local pub or smoking the lungs away.... BUT I also recognise that the American system of ignoring these people and further marginalising them is not the answer either!

If we were to withdraw all these benefits what do you think would be the overall outcome???? I would argue that a significant majority would turn to crime to support themselves... and that would be crime affecting YOU, ME and our singificant others.

There is no easy way to fix this, there is no easy way to determine who deserves to have their healthcare subsidised or not. If we were to use the argument that those at "fault" for their medical ailments should not be assisted, you would find that we would not treat the vast majority of patients.

90+% of what we spend in healthcare goes to treat obesity, hypertension, ischaemic heart disease and smoking related illnesses. That is the reality.
We are a self-destructive lot (except maybe for Zed given that he is half monkey ;), they are much better behaved.. ), it has to do with curiosity, apathy, depression, etc...

In summary I think our system is not great but it could be a lot of worse.... ie look at the Americans! :eek: Some further planning is necessary to make the current system sustainable in the near future but to be perfectly honest, I can't see a way out of not shifting the burden to those of us that are better off, at least in the short term.

If a significant amount is spent on education of the public and preventative medicine it maybe that in the next 4-5 decades that some of these issues are less relevant but from experience this is often thrown in the too hard basket.
Although probably the most rewarding aspect of medicine, changing behaviour is a lot of work and in this current system there is little incentive for medicos to be involved in it (apart from the moral one that is).

One way that the above could be achieved is to offer a benefit to those doctors who practice preventative medicine... it would be hard to monitor but the income of GPs in England is very much dependent on this.... is it working??? Time will tell.

regards

Marios

[Jack E]

Routermaniac,

Well done on your dedication, hard work and success. I watched my partner go through mediacl school and fully appreciate the effort required.

I do agree with your comments, especially those about the poor American health system.

I also agree that most medical treatment is for self induced ailments.

As I said recently, This will probably get worse and I guess we can only accept that fact.

Still nothing wrong with discussing it though.

Jack.

[Sturdee]

Sturdee,

That is exactly what I and am sure most others in my situation do, doesn't help the situation though. :) :) :)

Jack.


That is as it should be as you are entitled to reduce your tax liability so that you pay the least amount of tax. However having done that you should be happy to pay your taxes. :)

But it should be remembered that the medicare levy is a tax and has nothing to do with the cost of the health care system. It is to fund government revenue, like all other taxes.

There is not, nor has there ever been a straight nexus between health care costs and the levy except in some politicians weird minds. :mad:

I don't mind if you have a debate on the health care system, its benefits to the community and its adequacy or otherwise nor do I object to a debate on the tax system but it p****s me of that people claim that just because they pay taxes the healthcare system is rorted by the not so well of.


Peter.

[routermaniac]

Geez, after that I think I'll have a little lie down and think about all the LN planes I could have owned if I hadn't been paying the medicare levy! :( :( :( :( As opposed to all the ones I own now... ie NONE! :mad:


PS

Completely agree with you Jack, can't see things changing in a hurry... and at least we bother discussing these things unlike most of our politicians! ;)

[Jack E]

However having done that you should be happy to pay your taxes.

I will NEVER pay taxes with a smile on my face:D :D :D


it p****s me of that people claim that just because they pay taxes the healthcare system is rorted by the not so well off.

I don't think it is rorted, the medical system would be a pretty difficult one to take advantage of unless there was a genuine need for care (unlike many other systems).
I just enjoy seeing others views on the amount some people pay compared to others for a service that all are and should be entitled to.

Jack

[Clinton1]

We will always have people to whinging about their contribution to the socialist based components of our society. There will always be a "yeah but what about...the single mum with 14 kids who rents the garden shed to the drug smoking perpetual uni student whose gay lover is living off a grant to explore the socio-sexual-political-gluteal ramification of being a gay shed dwellers lover" Personally I find it the sign of mind that does not understand simple economics (as opposed to complex economics).
After living in Indonesia for a while and seeing houses with 4 luxury cars in their garages and built off the mansion's back walls a shanty town with raw sewage in the alley - I realised that many people would rather have gold plated taps in their bathrooms, even if it meant that society was too poor to provide its members with sewerage pipes.
A wealthy society (i.e. one that it is a pleasure to live in and that affords its members things like reliable power to run forum-browsing computers on) is inefficient in wealth distribution and its wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few (on a sliding scale of lots = little, few = lotsa$. That is why it is important to pay lots of tax and to 'waste' it on things you may not strictly approve of, it means that your chances of getting rich are increased. Proof - what about the country that can afford to go to war 1/2 way round the globe on fabricated reasons (or even better to fund several massive gov't organisations that earnestly and dilligently got the reasons for waging war wrong) and what country has the highest concentration of billionaires and millionaires? ?? ??? ????

[Sturdee]

I will NEVER pay taxes with a smile on my face:D :D :D

Jack


I do. :D

I have been listening to good advice for many years and now the amount I have to pay is not enough to get upset about. :D


Peter.

[routermaniac]

It sounds like we may need to have you over for dinner Sturdee to let us in on some of your secrets :)

[LineLefty]

Hmm, an interesting discussion I've started here. I've been at a conference all day so I couldn't contribute.

Please understand though, for future reference, that in the cold light of day I'm happy to hand over my medicare levy/surcharge. I was just having a lighthearted whinge because I was really looking forward to buying that bandsaw!

The way I see it, It may be 'inequitable' now, but if it's the same when I'm a bit older then two enquitieis wil make an equity........................

I abhor government bashing, it's a terminal disease in this country that distracs us from the real problems. I wouldnt wan't y'all to think I was a whinging pratt!

[Ashore]

Hmm, an interesting discussion I've started here.
I was a whinging pratt!Your whole argument seems to me and correct me if I'm wrong is that because wour tax refund is not as high as YOU IMAGINED your wife ( the poor long suffering woman) is going to spend the returne on a " washing machine" with which to keep your clothes looking somewhat reasonable.http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon5.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon5.gif
And for this you have started a thread that has polirazed the forum into age groups with views so opposed that xmas cards may be sent post due this year .http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gifhttp://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif
To help you with your first problem
http://www.patented-antiques.com/images/Web%20Collection%20to%20write%20&%20written/WEB%20Collection%20Written/patent_coll/washer_d/wash_light.jpg

A hand made item may save you the $400
as to your second problem however I can't help Dna restructure is beyond me http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif



BTW great thread gave everyone a chance to vent their anger/Rage/resolve




The trouble with life is there's no background music.

[maglite]

(Confession) I am a high income earner.

Do i mind paying extra to support the "baby boomers"......not on your life.
It is through their efforts that I, as an unskilled person(no formal qualifications), have the ability to earn a high income.
I would willingly pay for these people until the cows come home.... and shall continue to do so.
People forget, that in years gone by, a high income wasnt attainable by the ordinary person but generally one had to be born into money, extremely talented or have a benefactor.
The "baby boomers" changed this, effectively society was changed from a class based one into one where everyone was considered equal.
They didnt do it easily either, wages were considered low, house prices high etc.....not much has changed really in that respect.
The "baby boomers" in effect changed the mindset of the country, they introduced a point of veiw that if YOU were prepared to make the odd sacrifice you could have everything and more that was available.
In effect the rewards were there.....you just had to want them bad enuff.
Sons and daughters were given a skill that cant be bought for all the money in the world, but could be sold for the reverse.......A WORK ETHIC.
It makes no difference to me what they did with their earnings,most worked bloody hard and were entitled to spend their money as they saw fit at the time.

Thanks to a minority of "baby boomers", who occupied places high in the beauracracy,they didnt want others to suffer the inequalities that they themselves experienced, ie: work and struggle.
It was those people that gradually eroded the work ethic until it didnt exist anymore and they replaced it with the "nanny state welfare ethic".
Nowadays we have an ageing population and less people in the workforce, people dont have to work if they dont want to....in most cases they are better off, if not in cash terms, most certainly in real terms than those that choose to work for a living.The Health Care Card for example!! Subsidised prescriptions, rent assistance, bond assistance....the list goes on.
Its a pretty poor state of affairs when welfare payments are indexed at a more regular rate than the wage rate in general.
The Medicare levy isnt payable on welfare payments. Is It ?
So there you have it:
The "baby boomers" who have earnt the privelege of subsidised health care.
The 'Working Poor" who deserve the privelege of subsidised health care.
The "sit my **** and dont do SFA" who get more benefit than the other 2 put together.

Like i said earlier, i dont mind paying the levy, i just wish that i had more of a say in who benefits from it.

Steve

[routermaniac]

Hmm, an interesting discussion I've started here. I've been at a conference all day so I couldn't contribute.

Please understand though, for future reference, that in the cold light of day I'm happy to hand over my medicare levy/surcharge. I was just having a lighthearted whinge because I was really looking forward to buying that bandsaw!

The way I see it, It may be 'inequitable' now, but if it's the same when I'm a bit older then two enquitieis wil make an equity........................

I abhor government bashing, it's a terminal disease in this country that distracs us from the real problems. I wouldnt wan't y'all to think I was a whinging pratt!
Linelfty I dont think anyone misunderstood you. You were expecting a bandsaw which has become less likely, I think ALL of us can relate to that :) , that is the beauty of this forum, the unifying link of wood! (and the ubeaut cap, Neil will be ordering one ASAP!)

I dont think you should feel bad, you started an excellent discussion. We are all different and all entitled to our views, such is life. In fact if the rest of Australia got off their backside and started discussing these issues we would all be much better off.

Have a great day

Marios

[bitingmidge]

I do to a degree agree with your sentiments. (snip)

If we were to withdraw all these benefits what do you think would be the overall outcome???? I would argue that a significant majority would turn to crime to support themselves... and that would be crime affecting YOU, ME and our singificant others.

Well I only agree with my sentiments to a degree as well (which is why I was trying to express them in the third person :o),so we must think similarly! ;)

The fix is easy. There was a movie about it sometime ago, the gist of which was that in the US prisons had become so overcrowded they just fenced off New York(?) and bunged the baddies in there and left them to their own devices.

Here we could just send 'em to Tasmania. Sort of like the Olympic City selection really, the infrastructure is in place and they have a history of that sort of thing there. Or if Tassie was too unpalatable, New Zealand would be ok.

That would leave the rest of us to live in utopic (myopic?) surrounds, where the sun came up each day on our retirement villages and the nurses fed us our rolled oats each morning while we read agreeable articles of peace and harmony in the morning papers (or listened to PodCasts).

The only problem with having all the problems sorted and living easily, would be that threads like this would cease to exist, and our unused consciousness would... ... would.. .. .. ..

P (Sorry I've been eating Apricots again.... ... )
:D :D :D

[Daddles]

Midge, your pills are in the TOP drawer :D

Richard

[silentC]

Yeah, that'd be right, top drawer pills for you, while the rest of us take what we can get, scavenged from the pharmacy floor. Classless system indeed! Hmph :mad:

[silentC]

BTW did you know that apricot kernels contain arsenic? Apparently they also cure cancer... Now there's the real issue - why are the drug companies making a motza selling chemo drugs when you can get the same result chewing a few apricot seeds?

[craigb]

What, poison yourself ?

[Daddles]

What, poison yourself ?

Yeah, cut out the middle man :D

Richard

[bitingmidge]

BTW did you know that apricot kernels contain arsenic? Apparently they also cure cancer... Now there's the real issue - why are the drug companies making a motza selling chemo drugs when you can get the same result chewing a few apricot seeds?

Now here's the thing:
Treated pine contains arsenic too, and apparently it CAUSES cancer.

Maybe Silleopethy works because people become euphoric when they find such a simple, cost effective cure, and then die happy??

P (The real test... ... starts tonight, and it's being televised live!)

:D :D :D

[echnidna]

............The fix is easy. ................ Here we could just send 'em to Tasmania.
P (Sorry I've been eating Apricots again.... ... )
:D :D :D

Don't forget our Traditions midge. Tassy and NZ aren't appropriate (though the NZ solution is appealing)
We should send them to that shaky group of isles off the coast of france.

[shaunburgess]

Gee your lo0t of grumpy old buggers, just think how lucky we are that we are not Seppo's. I pay medicare levy, I pay to have my suits drycleaned, I pay for my tools for work.......yet if i owned my own business or if i was a tradesman (those people put on a pedastal by the tax office) I could claim all of this, my 4 wheel drive, my saws, my overalls cleaned yet still only pay 30 cents in the dollar tax......

What's fair Now??????

[silentC]

I actually did a bit of research into the apricot kernel thing (when I say 'research' I did a bit of Googling) for my old man.

Being of good Celtic stock, he has been regularly having bits burnt and cut off for the last few years by way of thanks for his days working out of doors. He'd heard about this apricot kernel thing and wanted to try them out.

Apparently health food shops here are not allowed to sell them. This is part of the conspiracy theory, they have been banned because of pressure from the chemo drug companies. It probably wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that people have died from arsenic poisoning after eating too many of them. But then that's what 'they' want us to think.

It's an interesting story actually. A community of people in some mountains somewhere who have zero cancer - diet consists mainly of apricots which they grow in their orchards - a staple is a paste made from the ground kernels - some bloke hears about them, does tests, claims that the extract cures cancer - tries to get clinical trials - shut down by FDA - results of secret tests leaked, yes it does cure cancer - scientist who worked on the trials speaks out but later changes story - people die - extract is banned.

The old man takes them and he hasn't had a skin cancer since, even says one that was starting to develop has disappeared (still gets regular checkup), read into that what you will. He also reckons he got a friend to give them to his daughter, who was in the last stages of cervical cancer and she is now in remission.

I'm personally a bit skeptical but if Silleopethy works then why not, I say. And what's more you can't claim it on Medicare.

[Daddles]

Midge, I think you need so share some of those pills with Silent. The purple ones if you can reach that far under the chemist's bench :D

Richard

[ndru]

a paste made from the ground kernels

Sounds like the story of "Laetrile (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/Cancer/laetrile.html)"

[silentC]

That's the one but there are just as many websites, articles and books claiming it is true. That's what I found anyway. I read the article you posted amongst others. At the end of the day, you have to make up your own mind.

The 'accepted' medical opinion is that it is at best ineffective and at worst life-threatening. Does that mean it doesn't work? Who can say? Like I said, I'm skeptical.

[Grunt]

Like I said, I'm skeptical

I thought you were SilentC.

[silentC]

Guffaw, guffaw

:p

[ndru]

The 'accepted' medical opinion is that it is at best ineffective and at worst life-threatening. Does that mean it doesn't work? Who can say? Like I said, I'm skeptical.

I really don't know either, but it has been around for quite a while now and goes in and out of repute.

I don't hold to any position on Laetrile, but I am generally distrustful of the pharmaceutical industry's reluctance towards research into such things because of their their inability patent on naturally occuring substances.

[silentC]

That's where the real interest lies. Just say the stuff does work. If you were making a killing (sorry) selling chemo drugs and someone came along with something that actually works and that anybody can produce, wouldn't you do everything in your power to supress it?

[Gingermick]

What is the obligation of failures,
The point, Jack, is that all members of a society have an obligation to that society.

[Gingermick]

the amount some people pay compared to others for a service that all are and should be entitled to.
Jack
Everyone is quite welcome to make use of available medical services.

If you aren't ill enough, then you aren't putting in enough effort.:D
I've had my share. And it didn't require much effort.

[Studley 2436]

Can I buy into this discussion too?

I think Medicare works really well for serious injury such as a road crash, or industrial accident. You get taken to hospital and treated immediately. No questions about do you have insurance or anything like that.

Medicare isn't so good for things that aren't life threatening. Even some things that are life threatening it doesn't do well. The reason is because there has to be some limit to supply. Universal access means you get lines or waiting periods before you can have treatment.

It is difficult to change the system too. Remember recently when they wanted to cut back on IVF. Now what they proposed wouldn't save a lot of money because they were only going to say they wouldn't do IVF for women over 40 and for women who had failed 3 times. Basically the ones where there was very little chance of success. The other thing is that IVF is apparantly pretty stressfull so after three times you don't really want to go through it all again. Modest changes to save a little money and a the use of a few beds but the outcry made them change their minds.

Of course try going to outpatients for treatment queus for miles. Many times for flu symptoms either because people don't want to pay a gap fee or because the GP wants to make sure he is covered on the small chance it is something more serious. Have to curtail the legal system making judgement calls on doctors after the fact as much as they are. (not proposing to stop legal comeback on incompetent doctors but doctors shouldn't just be sued for anything esp things they may not have been able to do anything about. The example there being childbirth where a poor decision might be made but in the heat of the moment they had to decide something. Later with much more time to examine all the options you can say the doctor did the wrong thing but at the crucial moment he did the best that could be done, you shouldn't be sued for that)

Pharmacists have a monopoly. If Business was permitted to employ Pharmacists to operate pharmacies either in Woolworths or independent businesses there would be a 500 million saving.

A big problem with the health system is that it is a closed market. There aren't price signals and the government is paying for most things. The government even pays a lot to keep the health insurers operating. If there were some way to introduce market forces we would have a better system that cost less etc etc. I don't know how you could do this just that it would work better.

Part of the problem too is that anyone can have any treatment they want. If the system said we won't treat this because you will die anyway resources could be saved for those you can make better. BUT sometimes people have been told that they would die even with treatment but insisted on being treated and made very good recoveries and lived well for 15 even 20 years.

I am not taking a postion on any of this there are many powerful forces that dictate to our health system and not all of them are interested in finding a better outcome. Some of those in the system don't want it changed as they do very well out of it.

While Medicare has some serious faults it does work at least after a fashion. You could improve it but doing so would prove very difficult.

Stevo
I promise not to be so serious in future

[Grunt]

I think a bit of lateral thinking is in order. I think we should have a woodwork tool levy. We all pay an extra 1% tax. If you are a member of this board and wear a foilie, you'll be entitled to get all the woodwork tools you need. Solves Adams problem. I'd be happy.

[shaunburgess]

Grunt,

What a wondertool idea, i have given you a greenie for this (my first)!!!!! I think you should petetion little johnny for it straight away!:D :D :D :D :D

[Studley 2436]

Actually Grunt made me think of something.

A study of people who made it to 100 years of age found nothing similar except they all had something they were doing. They were volunteers had a hobby something that they did that made it worthwhile getting out of bed.

So because we have a hobby something to feel good about contact with a group of like minded people we are going to live longer and better than we would have otherwise.

SO the government should give us a tax break for tools and consumables.

What about allowing home woodworkers to register for GST and send in a BAS each month to get their 9% back?

Stamp duty axed on tools. Pretty sure there are some more taxes they can get rid of to make it easier for us to look after our health.

Stevo

[routermaniac]

Here we could just send 'em to Tasmania. Sort of like the Olympic City selection really, the infrastructure is in place and they have a history of that sort of thing there. Or if Tassie was too unpalatable, New Zealand would be ok.to PodCasts).

I should really stop reading this when I'm eating, nearly choked from laughter :D

[Jack E]

What about allowing home woodworkers to register for GST and send in a BAS each month to get their 9% back?

Not a bad idea but it would promote more whining.

Somebody who boght a $100 tool and recieved $9 back would whinge that the rich person who bought a $500 tool got 5 times more than him back :)

Jack

[E. maculata]

or someone else would whinge that they didn't get 50% back, cause you know they put more into the economy, then they would set up a family trust that recieved all the income and what with the associated negative gearing and depreciation, it paid for all the tools over a 3 year period, but still they were insured for twice the original purchase amount :rolleyes: :) and still they whine......by the way did anyone else see the survey results that was recently done on some Aussie millioniares ?????????:confused:

[Daddles]

Nah. We don't need a levy for friggin' tools. We need it for BOAT BUILDING EPOXY. Cripes. I'm putting together a Mouseboat, on the cheap, and the rotten epoxy is going to cost more than the rest of the boat put together. Stich and Poo boys. Don't do it, especially when building boats. Actually, it sounds rather painful if doing it in anyway but the boat building application. Is this making sense? No? Take up boat building. It'll make perfect sense ... even if I don't.

Richard
and they say that you have to be careful about the fumes. I don't believe it myself myself myself myself

[echnidna]

Pharmacists have a monopoly. If Business was permitted to employ Pharmacists to operate pharmacies either in Woolworths or independent businesses there would be a 500 million saving.
Stevo
I promise not to be so serious in future

If Coles and Woolies operated pharmacies they would probably do what thay have done to all the other small businesses. And they would try to soak up as much of that 500 mil as possible.

They used to be cheap once upon a time .... but theyre not nowadays.

I seem to recall Coles mighta recently been fined for improper trade practises.
Woolies sacked many Dick Smith franchises recently and in at least one instance opened a Dick Smith outlet immediately opposite their former franchisee.