Finishing pine table tops - Basic newby questions

[yvonnegee]

Hi everyone, I have been a "lurker" on this forum for a long time and have appreciated many pointers, but I am still very very new to woodworking in any form. So please do not be too harsh. I have very limited resources, including cramped dual use workspaces, and poor quality tools.

My current project is to create 2 office tables and a bookshelf return from Bunnies "laminated" pine panel. Desktops: 1800x670x30 and 1500x670x30 and the 3 shelves will be 900x220x30. (Nearly 6sqm to finish) I chose this option as it is cheaper than standard MDF office furniture and hopefully will achieve a better look than melamine. I am not expecting premium furniture. The office has jarrah floors and jarrah stained bookcases. I want to maintain that look but with a somewhat lighter matt timber finish, which is hardwearing and subject to strong sun through the window.

With large pieces like this and my poor manual skill levels, I wish to choose the easiest finish options to satisfy my needs. I have been using some leftover offcuts from other jobs as test pieces.

To avoid the reknown blotchiness, I have bought some orange shellac flakes and thinned down 100ml vol or approx 25g flakes to 400ml 95% meths. I expected this to dissolve clear, but it creates a thick milky cloud at the bottom of the jar, even after straining through fine nylon stocking.

1. I have been applying this as a sealer after sanding to 120g by stirring into a cloudy suspension. Should I not be stirring, but just using the clear gold liquid? This goes on very easily and makes me think maybe a full shellac finish would be easiest, but it would not receive regular maintenance.

2. I have tried and rejected combined stain and varnish. Too difficult to apply and covers the wood grain. I have achieved a reasonable result with old Wattyl stain and estapol, so chose to use separate stain and polyurethane despite additional cost. I bought BP mahogany stain but it is vey light. I have applied with a brush, leave it to dry, and then wipe over with a cloth. The stain accumulates and drips down the edges, and shows brush marks before rubbing. If I wipe over too soon these blemishes are removed but so is the bulk of the stain. If I wipe too late the stain is too sticky and I don't achieve an even finish. Given the tables are quite a large flat area how can I achieve the best result with this stain?

3. Because the 30mm edges will be the most obvious part of the desk seen, I am keen to get a reasonable finish on the edges. My current thought is to seal and stain the edges before doing the main surfaces so that future drips can be wiped. Does this make sense? Does each edge need to be set horizontal and done separately to get even stain coverage? Once happy with the result could they have shellac sealer on top to limit the danger of excess stain from the top and bottom soaking in?

4. I recognize the brushes I am using are not up to the task. I find it confusing to know what is "good" brush. At Bunnies yesterday there was only one option of pure bristle bushes and they were neither fine nor tapered ends. I bought one anyway, plus a cheaper one that felt soft and pliant but I am sure not considered a good varnish brush. Do I need to go to an overpriced paint store to get a varnish brush? Or is it better to thin the poly and rub it on?

5. For this level work, is it necessary to sand back to higher than 400g?

6. A friend who makes his own marine furniture recommended using 2 coats of Cabothane or better still 2 coats of Cabot' CPF for floors. I was concerned about using CPF, not only because of the fumes, but it is not UV resistant. Would it be harder wearing?

7. I had to return the can of old stock low sheen Cabothane I bought as it was impossible to stir the thick glug at the bottom of the can. That can did not provide a very good test, but was thicker than my 15yo can of Estapol. Can Cabothane be thinned to say 50/50 to use as a wiping poly? If not, what is another cheap option for thinning to create wiping poly?

Sorry for the raft of questions. Any help will be appreciated.

[yvonnegee]

OK, an update.

Today I stained the first and smallest section of the actual job, a scanner stand 400x230. Being so small and mostly hidden it does not lock me in to any method. Overall I am content with the finish I have achieved.


This effort proved that doing the edges is going to be difficult as I have always been "neatness challenged!". I sanded pretty thoroughly, taking out all the saw marks on the edges, but I probably should have gone to finer grit to get the cross grained edges more smooth. That would probably also reduce their take up of stain to closer approximate the rest of the job.


I sealed with only the clear part of the shellac mixture, so it dried with less yellowing. (Although with warmer weather I noticed the cloudiness actually increased and swirled upwards with heat by itself!). I then sanded with 320g, lightly only to remove tears and any raised grittiness.


I stained the edges first. With the sun and warm wind it dried quickly and I found the better brush gave me a better finish without wiping off with a rag. I did wipe all corners with a clean cloth dampened in turps to eliminate any heavy colour over the edges. I just used the brush as the work dried to even out any slower drying sections. With the laminated planks in the pine each giving different characteristics, plus I suspect some chemical smears left from the manufacturing process, the end result did leave some blotchiness and some mottling which reduced after a couple of hours drying and a light rub with the slightly moistened rag. The end result is a better colour and a very natural look despite the colour variations. Far from perfect, but I'm content with it.


Now, as Bunnies didn't have the matt cabothane in 1L size yesterday, I am rethinking my final coats. I was going to try thinning it to make a wiping poly, but note that some time ago Jerryc pointed out that poly does not react so well with temperature variations. So I am thinking of using the spar varnish idea mixed in equal parts with boiled linseed and turps.
http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=67925


With that mix, does the linseed reduce the gloss effect of the spar varnish which only comes in gloss? I really want a matt finish or at worst a satin. But this sounds a good way for me to as a raw beginner.

[Christos]

You have quite a number of questions and very diverse.


....To avoid the reknown blotchiness, I have bought some orange shellac flakes and thinned down 100ml vol or approx 25g flakes to 400ml 95% meths. I expected this to dissolve clear, but it creates a thick milky cloud at the bottom of the jar, even after straining through fine nylon stocking. ....

When I have mixed up Shellac Flakes I shake it very well and when I am done shaking I allow it to stand over night. I end up with a clear top part and a cloudy bottom half. I then strain this using a coffee filter by pouring the clear part first as once the cloudy part gets to the filter it generally clogs it to a very slow drip.



........3. Because the 30mm edges will be the most obvious part of the desk seen, I am keen to get a reasonable finish on the edges. My current thought is to seal and stain the edges before doing the main surfaces so that future drips can be wiped. Does this make sense? Does each edge need to be set horizontal and done separately to get even stain coverage? Once happy with the result could they have shellac sealer on top to limit the danger of excess stain from the top and bottom soaking in?......


Sealing and staining the edges first is something that I have not tried and cannot comment on. Setting it horizontal should not be necessary. You might be applying a bit too much stain on your test pieces.



.....4. I recognize the brushes I am using are not up to the task. I find it confusing to know what is "good" brush. At Bunnies yesterday there was only one option of pure bristle bushes and they were neither fine nor tapered ends. I bought one anyway, plus a cheaper one that felt soft and pliant but I am sure not considered a good varnish brush. Do I need to go to an overpriced paint store to get a varnish brush? Or is it better to thin the poly and rub it on?.....

Ah the brushes. This could be a very big subject. At present I have a variety that I have managed to acquire from your reasonably priced ones to the cheapish ones that shed bristles just by looking at them. If you use a cheap brush it may not hold onto it's bristles when you apply finish. It may not hold that much finish in the brush and I have seen people flood the brush to compensate. No matter if it a good brush or a cheap brush both can provide a good finish if you work slowly and consistently when applying the finish. Tap the excess off the brush and go back to the pot more often.

You might consider purchasing Wipe On Poly and Bunnings should stock the Feast Watson brand.



....5. For this level work, is it necessary to sand back to higher than 400g?....

A bit of a hard question to answer as this is more personal but for me I have gone to 320 or 400 grit depending on what paper I found at the time. :B

[Christos]

.....This effort proved that doing the edges is going to be difficult as I have always been "neatness challenged!". I sanded pretty thoroughly, taking out all the saw marks on the edges, but I probably should have gone to finer grit to get the cross grained edges more smooth. That would probably also reduce their take up of stain to closer approximate the rest of the job....

Sanding the end grain edges to a smoother feel does help reduce the take up of finish. For one particular piece that I made the end grain was sanded very smooth then Shellac based sanding sealer just for the edge was applied before any finish. Similar to what you are doing with the application of Shellac prior to applying stain as the Shellac will fill the pores and stop blotches.

[Master Splinter]

Honestly, it's pine.

Once you've got the stain to your satisfaction, just hit it with a spraycan (or two or three) of cheap estapol!

I refinished my sister's basic pine sewing table some 25 years ago in that fashion and it's still fine today.

The only improvement I'd make if doing it all again would be to sit the can in 40-50 degree water in the kitchen sink for 15 minutes for better atomisation.

(ok, if I was doing it all again now I'd spray it with two pac poly, but that's because I now have all the tools to make that easy!)

[yvonnegee]

Thanks to you both for your comments. I am not expecting a masterpiece from this. I have just finished staining the first of the tables. Putting extra sealer on the edges and then sanding thoroughly has worked well in providing a smooth finish. My brushing technique is not good enough to produce a flawless finish over the 1.5m length, but it's not too bad at all. Wiping over removed too much stain, so have only done that where take up was too much or too blotchy.

I have found the wiping poly easier to use than spray can so will persevere with that despite the extra time it will take.

So far so good.

[Christos]

With time and more projects you will find it gets easier.

[Bob38S]

I don't quite follow the staining part of your problem. What stain are you using?

When using pine I do use a sealer to "fill" the pores especially the end grain to avoid blotchiness and or excessive stain take up on end grain. I usually go to 400 on surfaces but 600 on end grain to also help out. My choice of stain is spirit stains - can't use under shellac as the metho will pull it out, if you want to go shellac the use water based stains. As has been stated before, with largish surfaces spraying is the way to go but if this is not possible then consider a quality short nap roller. You cover a large area quickly and providing that your finish is not too thick or you do not overwork the area it should level out pretty well.

I would suggest strongly if you are serious about learning finishing that you purchase a copy of our forum sponsor's book on finishing - a wealth of info.