Remove Condensation & insulate shed

[Jigsaw]

I have a colourbond garage used as a workshop and had thoughts of insulating the roof to make it more useable in the hotter and colder months. I did not install any sarking when the shed was built and I get a little bit of condensation on cold mornings. The roof is a gable with 3 purlins on each side of the roof. I was thinking of putting in a false sealing about 6 inches from roof and installing some fibreglass batts. If I do this will I get more condensation and end up with damp batts. If I install sarking, I am guessing I will still get condensation on the inside of the roof but that it will then drop onto the sarking. How is the moisture then removed from the sarking.
With sarking, do I need to purchase foil sarking or can I use a polytarp which is cheaper.

It could be that I don't understand how the sarking works.
What is the best approach.

[Wildman]

Sarking is supposed to be overlapped so any water trickling down it doesnt go through, it is then supposed to extend past the walls under the eaves. There is not going to be too much condensation once the roof is sealed up anyway, an open garage allows much more moisture to reach the roof in the air. You would want to use sarking with batts anyway. Sarking works by reflecting radiant heat on one side (top or bottom) as well as the reflective surface not re-radiating heat even when hot, thus working as a heat barrier (batts simply slow the passage of heat from one side to the other).

I would use a product like foilboard under the tin, it is excellent at stopping radiant heat as well as a polystyrene layer for bulk insulation. It is easy and clean to install and works well. It also is not affected by condensation. A 2400x1400 sheet is about $21 for 10mm and $23 for 15mm. I get it straight from the manufacturers in Dissik street in Cheltenham, some larger bunnings have 10mm in stock but would have to order 15mm. I recommend 15mm, it is far more rigid.

I recently pulled all the plaster off my external walls in our bedrooms and put foilboard between the studs, much warmer and quieter (very good at sound deadening) than the uninsulated weatherboards that we had. I am expecting the west walls to be much cooler in summer as well when they get full sun from midday until dusk. I am a big convert, love the stuff. Have a pack of 20 sheets in the garage ready to nail up under the floorboards when I get keen.

Cheers
Ben

[robri]

Sorry to jump in on this one but I have been thinking of doing the same on the farm - it is a barn style shed - metal battons - any thoughts on how to attach the foam?

[Cliff Rogers]

.... - it is a barn style shed - metal battons - any thoughts on how to attach the foam?
Don't use nails..... :rolleyes:

Nah, joking..... if you want to use nails, go right ahead BUT, remember, I told you so.

I'm interested too, I have a metal shed that I now want to seal from the inside with plywood sheeting & some sort of insulation.
I've been told that firbre bats are useless if you have more than 5% moisture content. ???
I didn't want to use fibre bats 'cos I hate the stuff after having to run cables in ceilings.
I found this stuff the other day.... & then lost it again... D'oh!

Found it... (struth:rolleyes: ) http://www.protherm.com.au/

[bitingmidge]

One of the builders we work with has been using a lot of this lately:

http://www1.air-cell.com.au

Looks pretty empressive from many counts.

cheers,

P :cool:

[zenwood]

Last year I lined my shed (roof and walls) with insulation batts and gyprock. Just put some extra timber framing between the metal frames. Very pleased with it so far: comfortable summer and winter.

See thread

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=18081

for some pics.

[Wildman]

Sorry to jump in on this one but I have been thinking of doing the same on the farm - it is a barn style shed - metal battons - any thoughts on how to attach the foam?
You can buy clips that you could rivet to the metal battens that you then push the foilboard onto. On the inside you then attach more metal battens designed to clip into the clips where they poke through the insulation, you then gyprock (I would plywood a shed) into them (plasterboard screws go straight in). You will then have a consistent cavity on each side of the foilboard (10-15mm is all it needs) with minimum thickness.
Cheers
Ben

[Jigsaw]

I was thinking of using the batts because it had a higher R value than other insulation. If I use the foilboard (Polystyrene), I guess my shed becomes one big esky. I had thought of using melanine (say 6mm) as a celing because it is light, easy to handle, it only has to support its own weight, its cheap and it is already white which helps the illumination in the workshop.

I have lined my shed with 10mm sheets with polyester insulation (about 1/2 an inch thick) between the sheets and the metal skin.
I was given a roll of insulation for gratis which was enough to do all of the shed walls. Garage (shed) is 7.5 metres by 5.5 metres by 3 metres.
The wall lining sheets are 10mm craftwood with a covering on one side so they don't need painting. THey came out of an office block in the city that was being refurbished. The mate that was doing the job had 140 sheets of (7 feet by 3 feet) the stuff. he threw most of them in the tip because he did not have room to store them. When I spoke to him he had about 30 sheets left, enough to line a garage.

[Iain]

Cliff old bean, I use aircell on my roof and it is self supporting, the beams hold it in place.
Shed is warmer, no drips (except when some BB members drop by :D :D :D ) and cooler in summer.
As I have clear panels (2 each side on a 12 metre run) I do not park any machinery under them, not that I have noticed any condensation on these panels, no idea why, anyone explain?
I just looked at your link and it looks like a similar product but I don't know that it is as rigid, Aircell is ribbed and when rolled out will not flex along the ribs, the roll matches the pitch of the roof in width and rolls out to the required length.
I had mine fitted while the shed was being built and the installation cost was minimal, and saved me going up there, I do not like ladders.

[soundman]

Condensation??? getting into the insulation???
Think about it.
It condenses out of the air due to contact with the cool roof. Insulation prevents contact, no condensation.

As far as holding insulation onto steel sheeting. Spray glue. ( sprayable contact cement.
Cut your bats to size, spray with glue, spray sheeting, stick up, sheet up over the top at your leasure.
Polyester bats are less itchy and stay together better than fibregalss.
cheers

[Cliff Rogers]

Cliff old bean, I use aircell on my roof and it is self supporting, ..... I do not like ladders.
Cool, where'd you get it?

I have 5 ladders... they must be like clamps & coathangers.... :confused:

[Iain]

http://www1.air-cell.com.au/pages/contact.aspx#details

[RufflyRustic]

I've been following this thread with great interest, as insulating my non-existant shed is something I want to do. Bit of a story, bear with me. It's been raining (finally!) in Toowoomba for the last few days, as well as being warm and foggy. It cleared up a bit last night and, of course, we had the heavy dew and fog etc etc. Anyway, went outside under the corrugated iron patio this morning for my regular wakeup with coffee and nature and immediately got dripped on by the condensation that was on the underside of the iron. I looked up and couldn't believe that the iron was soaked and dripping wet!!!
If this is what the inside of my future shed could be like, I'm *so* going to insulate it, regardless of what local council regulations are.

Local Council regs say that if I insulate my shed, it's a workshop and has to be built to liveable standards, which will end up decreasing the size of the shed:( and greatly increase the cost of it:mad: .

Ah well, still in the stages of working out how to turn the dream in to a planned reality

cheers
RufflyRustic

[robri]

One more question - is appears to be better to leave a gap between the actual metal roof material and the insulation as additional insulation factor and to ensure that there isn't heat transfer through the insulation 0 or that is what I am reading. It would therefore be less beneficial to glue the insulation to the roof metal - which is an easy option. I thought it would be better to attach the insulation to the underside of the rafter - or top hat. These are about 1.3 - 2 metres at a guess. Any thoughts on how??

[Iain]

Local Council regs say that if I insulate my shed, it's a workshop and has to be built to liveable standards, which will end up decreasing the size of the shed
Discreetly find out what council definition of insultion is before panicking, I would certainly not describe a piece of foil (regardless of how high tech) as full insulation, call it condensation proof.
Fortunately we don't have such a regulation (we have other strange one's though) and I can do anyhting I like inside.
Ascertain that insulation does not mean full insulation, eg: ceiling and walls, or do you need a ceiling, is an insulated roof classed as a ceiling or is that the flat false bit under the roof.

[RufflyRustic]

Yep, I asked and asked and asked, and was told that if there is any insulation, lining or noise-reducing stuff put in, this changed it from a shed i.e. car garage to a workshop aka liveable room. If I had the shed built without doors big enough to drive a vehicle through, it became a workshop and had to be built to liveable standards, all to suit future buyers of the property not the existing owner/user of the structure. Frigging etc etc etc, I'm not interested in building a structure for someone else to blinking use in xxx years time, I'm building it for
ME.
so I've let it go for a while so I can calm down before going back to local council to have another go. Unfortunately, the impression I got was put in your application, ie pay the $ and we'll talk some more, and you are female, what do you know/want a shed for, it's just going to be studio sewing room for you :mad: :mad: :rolleyes: :eek:

Liveable, if my memory serves me, means 900 mm or was it 1500mm from the boundaries, and other specifics eg wind rating. sorry can't remember, was pretty steamed by this time. once I heard 1500mm from the boundary, there went my shed size from 6x5 metres to way too small for the intended use/enjoyment/equipment and siting on the spare patch of ground I have.

Oh, i did get a concession to, you can put in the insulation, do it after council inspection and approval, just remove it when you sell the place. Now what sense does that make?
where's the smiley that shows me ripping my hair out, screaming in frustration, sigh.
RufflyRustic

[Iain]

Take your pick:
http://www.bahamascope.net/community/images/smilies/new_smilies_23.gif
http://www.bahamascope.net/community/images/smilies/mad2.gif
http://www.bahamascope.net/community/images/smilies/new_smilies_36.gif

[Cliff Rogers]

You could use Ceramatec (sp) paint to get around the heat problem but I don't know if that will help the condensation problem.

[RufflyRustic]

thanks Iain

cheers
RR

[zenwood]

If I had the shed built without doors big enough to drive a vehicle through, it became a workshop
Ruffly: I have the solution: just build the shed with doors big enough to drive a vehicle through. Then, by definition, it's a shed:). That's what mine is: two 3 m wide sliding doors make one entire wall, and it's fine. Just means any fixtures along that wall have to be free-standing. Unless you want to fix the sliding doors in place, which is always an option, unless the council are going to do yearly inspections?

[RufflyRustic]

Zenwood, good ideas! but how do I keep HWMNBO from putting his mini and two motorbikes through the remaining door, while leaving enough room for me to get the tools and wood inside and the resulting work out. Maybe I'll just have to get him another shed:eek:

I don't think yearly inspections happen - whew!
I agree with either freestanding shelving/tools. I've been contemplating the idea of double-doors along that side, leaving one as useable and replacing the other with a wall and windows so as to let some light in.

Now, must remember to put buy that lotto ticket :)

Cheers
RR

[Cliff Rogers]

...how do I keep HWMNBO from putting his mini and two motorbikes through the remaining door, ...
Build a moat around the place...
Build the slab 2 ft above ground level...
Cover them in sawdust...
Use them for shelving & timber storage....

How are we doing? ;)

[zenwood]

how do I keep HWMNBO from putting his mini and two motorbikes through the remaining door Option 1: possession is nine parts of the law. Just move in and occupy the space :).

Option 2: Get him to send his mini and two bikes to me. I used to drive a 1969 Cooper S, so as long as it's like that one...And while we're in mid-life crisis mode, he can send his Harleys my way too. ;)

I now officially want to be your HWMNBO: a wife into woodwork, and with a mini and 2 bikes...:D

[soundman]

Now here are some thaughts.
Do you want to leave you shed behind? Why not take it with you? :confused:
Don't tell any official person any thing thay can not find out from another source, Unless it works in your favor.
If you modualrise your insulation into panels, you can take them with you and put it up in the next shed. :D
Strategic dor obstructions. Large shelf or even better timber stacker. Trucking big bench. Large heavy piece of machinery which favours outside access. Any convienient pile of junk or stuff)

Flash car owners fear overspray far more than wood dust. Now when wher you buying that spary gun? :rolleyes: :D
cheers

[Shannon Nash]

Back to original thoughts in this thread.

I have moved into a place that had a shed built with recycled iron (lots of holes.) I sealed all the holes with selleys allclear before using it for my woodworking. Of late a little rain and there are sometimes drips in the shed but only in some areas. I thought I had sealled the roof. I had! The shed had foil under the roof in only some spots. These were the 'dry spots'. Where there was no foil condensation on iron = drips on floor and table saw. There is no water where there is foil below iron therefore I will have to put foil into areas not covered.

It is an interesting comparison given that the humidity is the same throughout the shed yet condensation and droplets only form where there is no foil and then drips on my stuff.

Shannon

[boban]

Ruffly,

this is my suggestion. Build the thing the way they will let you build it. That is no insulation. Once inspected and passed, do what you want to the inside. They dont inspect again unless they receive a complaint and realistically, who the hell will complain about you putting insulation in.... Generally, you have the problems with the town planners on issues like this rather than the inspectors.

Or you can do what one of my neighbours did, just build without a DA. Even after a complaint from one of his neighbours the council did nothing. (This is not good advice by the way)

Good luck

[RufflyRustic]

Thanks Guys! I do like the moat idea - always wanted a water feature in the backyard. Sawdust over everything would be the next way to go. As for insulation, I agree with the good suggestions made - build the shed as stock, get it inspected, then do whatever I truckin' well want to.

Again, a great thread about insulating sheds and getting rid of condensation.

Apologies for the hijack.
cheers
RufflyRustic

[RufflyRustic]

I now officially want to be your HWMNBO: a wife into woodwork, and with a mini and 2 bikes...:D

Ah, um, ok, here goes, [how to let a fellow woodworker down gently] Um, Zenwood, I am flattered, very flattered, but am already taken. Confession time, I wish HWMNBO was into wood working, then it really would be a match made in heaven :D

Hmm, maybe it's better this way as we wouldn't be sharing tools and fighting over who does what, where, when and him trying to tell me what to do.:rolleyes:


Cheers
RufflyRustic

[speedy]

This is how my old shed is insulated:D

[soundman]

speedy tell me thats the secret entrance to an underground workshop.
If it isn't you'd have to step outside to turn round a stanley no7. Its almost as small as ruffly's.

[speedy]

I could turn around the no7 but the no8 was a problem, thats why I built a new one. I'll post somemore when I'm finshed setting it up.

[RufflyRustic]

hi Speedy, Looking good!! Love the window shape. I notice you haven't gotten to the insulation bit yet. What have you decided to do when you reach this step?

cheers
RufflyRustic

[echnidna]

If I had the shed built without doors big enough to drive a vehicle through, it became a workshop and had to be built to liveable standards, I heard 1500mm from the boundary, there went my shed size from 6x5 metres to way too small for the intended use/enjoyment/equipment and siting on the spare patch of ground I have.


Why not build your shed with 2 hinged doors 1 say 1500 wide the other 900 wide. Put padbolts top and bottom on the wide door and fit padlocks to both. Should slow down the use by his vehicles. Specially if you "lose" the keys.

Or use a tiltdoor. Stick a nice heavy sawbench etc just inside the door. Of course you "need" to bolt it down for vibration. that'll stop the vehicles using it.

[echnidna]

BTW if you keep a nice sawdusty workshop the vehicles wont last long. Just sprinkle dust on them regularly an they'll soon find a new home.

[speedy]

hi Speedy, Looking good!! Love the window shape. I notice you haven't gotten to the insulation bit yet. What have you decided to do when you reach this step?
I'm fortunate to live in the rainforest on top of the Great Dividing Range (outside Cairns) average temperatures here is 10 to 30 deg so I don't need insulation. The down side is the very high humidity, causes a big rust problem.

:cool::cool::cool:

[RufflyRustic]

Echidna - I think sawdust over everything is only good for the time between sneezes - mine :rolleyes: , but, I have been known to tempt fate by telling HWMNBO that I'm gonna use his shed if he doesn't. Certainly gets him into it quick smart :D


Speedy - If it's so hot, wouldn't insulation help keep the temperature more even or have you acclimatized? I agree, the humidity is a concern. The M-in-Law is just down the range in Edmonton and is always telling us how humid it is there. Can only suggest airconditioning with a tiny dust-particle air filtation system, but that, of course, takes money away from wood and tools.

Actually, how do you handle the humidity when working with wood, both in regards to yourself and the wood?

cheers
RufflyRustic

[speedy]

Ruffy, I have lived all my life in the tropic and temps below 30 I don't consider hot. The humidity to me is only a problem as far as rust and mould go. Working in it personally is only a problem when the temp goes above the mid 30s, when its that hot I'll somtimes work naked. ;);):eek:
The wood itself isn't really a problem as the humidity stay constant through out the year, how ever if a peice I've made was to go to a very dry place to live there maybe a shrinkage problem. :(

[RufflyRustic]

Geez, thanks for the picture - Not! ;) and I was expecting you say something about certain cold beverages:Dthanks
RufflyRustic

[speedy]

nah, anyone can drink cold bevies I like the hippie way:cool:

[speedy]

Looks like I've KILLED another thread. :(:o

[Cliff Rogers]

You'll be fine speedy if you post some more pics, just stay out of them if it's a bit warm OK.:D

[soundman]

Speedy the safety implications are scary.
There is accepted measures to deal with long hair & there was some discussion about beards & safety.
What happens if something else gets caught in the machinery. :eek: :eek:
Good thing you're not a boilermaker "things could realy sizzle".

take care now!

[RufflyRustic]

's OK Speedy, just couldn't think quick enough to get a good reply for you. I kinda got stuck on the points the others have just rais.. sorry, stated :)

cheers
RR

[Don777]

Interesting you were talking about condensation on inside on clear roofing sheets. I have a small shed/workshop with a sky light( Fibraglass roofing sheet), condensate on the inside was shocking ended up put a sheet of clear ploycarp..on the inside, thus condensate drains outside. But in garage not a problem...
interesting. Don