The US Formula One **** Up

[Stuart]

The events at the F1GP in the USA was an absolute disgrace. However, I am fully on the side of the FIA and their decision to allow the race to carry on, without track modification. There were a number of alternate options that the Michelin teams could have taken, once Michelin had deemed their original tyres unsafe. However, through their own pigheadedness, and bad-sportsmanship, they made a digusing farce of the entire race.

They could have

1. Run turn 13 slower. The request for a chicane to make it "safer" for Michelin drivers is utter crap. A chicane would not make it safer. Slowing down for the corner would. The only reason for a chicane therefore, is to penalise the Bridgestone runners, so they have to go as slow as the Michelin teams. The Michelin teams could have chosen to take the corner to the limit of their cars' capabilities (ie the tyres) by going slower. So they would have lost ground to the Bridgestone cars. So no different a result to what actually happened, other than a real duel for places 7 onward, and a real race between the Michelin runners.

2. Use different tyres, accept the penalty for doing so, and try to resurrect the situation as best as possible. You might be able to pull something off. The Bridgestone cars may have technical or racing difficulties, and you'd still get legitimate placings.

3. Each fuel stop, change the affected tyre(s). No penalty (as tyres are faster to change than refuelling), and they would not have received an FIA imposed penalty, as the tyres would be changed for a safety reason, and is therefore legitimate.

But the Michelin teams chose not to do any of these. Instead, they chose to deny the fans & spectators any opportunity to enjoy the race.

Michelin will undoubtly get penalised, which is only fair. But, the decision not to take one of these options and therefore bringing the sport into disrepute rests firmly and squarely with the teams that chose not to race.




Whiting, (Race Director for the FIA) stated: “To change the course in order to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with the correct tyres.”

The FIA also outlined a number of other options available to the Michelin teams, including running more slowly in Turn 13, running new tyres and incurring a penalty, or repeatedly changing tyres, subject to valid safety reasons.

With those options deemed unacceptable by Michelin and their teams, there followed the bizarre spectacle of 14 cars peeling into the Indianapolis pit lane to retire at the end of the formation lap. "



The Press Release from Michelin stated “It is regrettable that our pre-race suggestions, agreed in conjunction with our partner teams, were not adopted. Had our ideas been followed, we could have guaranteed driver safety, the participation of our teams and added interest for the public."

[Groggy]

The Press Release from Michelin stated “It is regrettable that our pre-race suggestions, agreed in conjunction with our partner teams, were not adopted. Had our ideas been followed, we could have guaranteed driver safety, the participation of our teams and added interest for the public."What an absolute piece of crud. If they put chicanes all over the course I could race in my ute - with bald tyres!
IAW Stuart.

[Studley 2436]

The only thing I remember even slightly like this was in Adelaide in 86 when Prost won Mansell blew up a tire at the end of the Main Stright and Rossberg too lost a tire putting him out of the race although he thought it was an engine blow up when it was more of a flat that he might have got back to the pits.

After Mansell's tire failure the whole field pitted so the Goodyears that Day most likely weren't up to the job. Prost was the only main one that planned to pit, that day.

My point being the current rules are pretty bad. Simply why can't they stop for tires? Mind you I disagree with being able to stop for fuel. It is too dangerous. Not pitting for fuel means also bigger fuel tanks and so the cars will have less aerodynamic efficiency which has some advantages. Anyway the whole idea of limits on the number of engines and not being able to change tires goes against racing and achieves nothing worthwhile.

Had they been allowed to change tires as they always used to be then there would be no issue with tires blowing out.

The whole thing was a terrible farce and race fans everywhere can only hope that it is sorted out so we get to see some proper racing and passing. Of course we have always dreamed of that *G*

Stevo

[Stuart]

What an absolute piece of crud. If they put chicanes all over the course I could race in my ute - with bald tyres!
IAW Stuart.
Reminds me of the Australian F1 a few years ago. I worked the F1 for a number of years, so had vehicle access after the circuit was closed to the general public. I knew the circuit very well from years of simulation computer games (playstation etc), so charged off around the circuit in my '77 mercedes (the same one that I sold to build my workshop). It had pretty bald tyres come to think of it.

Taking turns 13 & 14, I was used to skinning the corner close in the sims, so took the same line in the merc. Course, they remove the row of 4x4 posts with chain interlinking them in time for the race, but hadn't done so before I had my impromptu run!

I didn't collect them, but I must have gotten the merc close to being on 2 wheels to avoid them!


Back to the F1 current rules:

Can't say I mind fuelling - the occasional fireball in the pits is pretty spectacular. Also means the races last a lot longer. The F1 is short enough as it is (bring on the equivalent of Bathurst!) (Or Le Mans 24 hour!)

Tyre changing is part of racing - this current status is wrong (as is the new Super V8 situation).

I agree with Stevo- the current rules are really detracting from the event. Lets get back to tyre changes, choosing fuel loads for the race itself, and not for qualifying, SLICKS, team orders (not that they are not used at the moment, just behind closed doors) etc etc.

[Lucas]

Stuart
do you relise that 9 of the teams wanted to sign off on the chicane
the chicane was to be placed between corner 12 and 13
seeing corner 13 was the one doing the damage then this would have solved the problem with the Michelin tyres
and then the team running Michelin tyres then suggested that they run with no points being awarded to them so as to put on a show


Looks to me like Jordan and Ferrari were just looking for some easy points
thats all i have to say on the matter

F1 is suppose to be the elite level of racing
but to me it just starting to look like who has the most money wins

[pau1]

Saftey is obviously the first concern of the teams. If a Team boss sent his drivers out to race knowing that there could be a problem and then there was an accident! Can you imagine the fallout. They have only just recently put the Senna case to bed. Michelin knew they had a problem, they admitted they had a problem. Yes they stuffed up, but for the FIA to penalise the fans who had paid good money to come and see the race is a farce.

As Lucas said, the Michelin teams offered to run at the back of the grid and with no points awarded to them if they put in the chicane. Why wouldn't Ferrari agree to this? What did they have to lose? They would have come away with the points anyway.

As for changing the tyres, when does the tyre become dangerous? Michelin sure didn't know. What if a tyre blew between pit stops? Go to jail Mr team boss for knowingly providing an unsafe workplace.

Slow down for that corner. HAHAHAHA Tell an F1 driver to slow down, thats pretty funny. What speed was slow enough to stop the tyre failure? There are too many variables. How tempting as a driver in the heat of the moment, would it be to push the tyres just that little bit more.

I'm almost glad they didnt race, maybe Bernie will realise that he can't run the show with only his special red cars on the grid.

[Schtoo]

Who cares? F1 has been a joke for so many years I can't remember when it was actually meaningful.

But I think this might be a turning point, might be. The whole mess (save Ferrari) have been threatening to do their own thing without Bernie, and this might be the straw that breaks the camels back.

I certainly hope so. If they do make their own formula the very least they could do is hire F1's current rule writer and place them under a strict contract so they can't have any say in any race rule book. Might make Ferrari pull their heads in a little too. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Ferrari at all, but they do occasionally need to be told who runs the show and it isn't them.

Yeah, I do watch F1. I can see an identical spectacle by walking down to the train tracks too. ;)

[Harry72]

Bah gimme WRC anyday!
Anyone see Turkey's highlights, 1 min in 33K's theres no catching the leader(and 5 1st's out of 7 races, history in the making)

[Stuart]

As Lucas said, the Michelin teams offered to run at the back of the grid and with no points awarded to them if they put in the chicane. Why wouldn't Ferrari agree to this? What did they have to lose? They would have come away with the points anyway.
Uh - perhaps checking your info might be better, Ferrari didn't block the chicane - the FIA did. Ferrari made no commitment to the chicane proposal - for or against. Their position was to stay out of that decision process.

I don't disagree that "slowing down" isn't a real option - but there were others, and at least one that would not have unduly affected the race (changing tyres during pitstops under the "for safety" rule).

As to Lucas:

do you relise that 9 of the teams wanted to sign off on the chicane
the chicane was to be placed between corner 12 and 13
seeing corner 13 was the one doing the damage then this would have solved the problem with the Michelin tyres
and then the team running Michelin tyres then suggested that they run with no points being awarded to them so as to put on a show
Yes - I was well aware of that, as would have been obvious from my first post.

Funny - 9 teams - 8 running Michelins, and Minardi who are lucky to be able to start each race given the 120% rule for lap speed.

My comments still stand. the chicane would not have made it safer- it would have slowed down the cars capable of taking the corner faster. If the Michelin teams wanted to put on a "show" - no one was actually stopping them. They had other options, and ones that would have allowed them to still get points (even with tyre changes, slower cornering, or a penalty for running on the new Michelin tyres that could run the circuit) Who would be prepared to say they couldn't beat a Minardi (who were lapped), or a Jordan (who can't get around a lap of the circuit without flat-spotting a tyre)? So positions 3 onward were still well up for grabs.

And it wouldn't have taken much more for the two Ferraris to take each other out, and so even 1st and 2nd could have been on the cards.

But instead, rather than play the odds, and possibly come up trumps, the non Michelin teams tried to hold the FIA to ransom to get their way.

Oh, and before you question my loyalties, I have been a Schumacher fan for a long time, (no surprise there), but I really want to see Webber take his place, and for that, he needs a good car (has that), good tyres (Michelins? hmm) and experience. He can't get that sitting in the pits.

Question to ponder - if it was only Ferrari (or even-only Bridgestone) that had a technical problem, would anyone seriously consider altering the circuit to accomodate them?

[Daddles]

Trying to blame Ferrari for this is sheer, unadulterated nonsense. Come on. This forum is above that. If you want to play those games, try one of the F1 forums.

The culprit here is Michelin and I suspect that somewhere within that organisation, a chief design engineer is brushing up on his bridge building ... with an eye to an enforced career shift.

Michelin have been running their tyres close to the edge for a long time - look at the number of 'slicks' that come off the cars during and after races. Incidentally, that is against the rules as the rules state that the tyres must have the grooves at all times, but there has been no performance gain, probably a loss, so the FIA haven't moved on the issue. This isn't unknown in F1 and even in today's enlightened age (pause for hysterical laughter), there will quite a few components that will last the race but not much longer.

But this weekend, they cut things too fine and their tyres weren't up to the job. We're lucky that no-one was badly hurt - remember Ralph's injuries last year when launched into the wall on that same corner? The humiliation of the race and loss of points will dramatically affect the strength with which Michelin can negotiate future contracts, may even affect current contracts. Ron Dennis and Frank Williams aren't known for compassion and forgiveness with this sort of screw up ... and a screw up it is. It could be argued that no further action need to be taken against Michelin but with the effect this will have on F1 in America, a country shy of the code anyway yet still important due to the marketing potential, I'd be surprised if there aren't penalties handed down, even if they aren't official or public.

As for changing the track or the rules to suit the Michelin runners - I heard no such demands earlier in the season when the Bridgestones weren't up to the task. And running without getting points? Get real.

What happened was the appropriate response to a regrettable situation.

The cure lies in Michelin taking more care in their testing and design, but I suspect they'll do that without urging.

Mad Max Mosely should look very carefully at the ludicrous tyre rules he's introduced because quite frankly, they contributed to this debacle, though that does not excuse Michelin. And the two race engine rule - the Michelin runners for whom this was the first race on an engine, now go into the next GP with an advantage (a fresh engine) though to be honest, I don't know how many cars are in this position.

I wonder what chance Michelin will have when the F1 chooses the manufacturer of the control tyre in a couple of years time. :rolleyes:

Cheers
Richard

[Stuart]

Bridgestone slicks control tyre.......mmmmm - drool.

[Jack E]

Stuart,

First you said
Ferrari didn't block the chicane - the FIA did.

Then when Lucas asked if you were aware that 9 teams wanted to sign off on the chicane you said


Yes - I was well aware of that, as would have been obvious from my first post.

So which is it? I think being one of two teams not willing to approve a track change would amount to them blocking the chicane proposal.

F1 have done alot of good work lately in the rules department in order to promote closer racing. This is obviously working because Ferrari are not dominating anymore.

F1 is a spectacle, mostly there for entertaining the fans which is what didn't happen in the U.S.

BTW, I love Ferrari and think Schumacher is a freak.

Jack

[Daddles]

Sadly Jack, Ferrari aren't dominating because Bridgestone have yet to produce a decent tyre. On occasion, the cars have had the race speed but can't produce it with the single lap qualifying system. The rules aren't the reason.

Cheers
Richard

[pau1]

Uh - perhaps checking your info might be better, Ferrari didn't block the chicane - the FIA did. Ferrari made no commitment to the chicane proposal - for or against. Their position was to stay out of that decision process.

I didn't say they blocked it. I said they wouldn't agree to it. Sitting on the fence in this situation is as good as blocking it anyway. And what about that testing ban that the other teams agreed to? Seems Ferarri are quite happy to go their own way when it suits them. I wonder how long they and Bernie will be happy when all the other manufacturers leave the championship?

As for changing the tyres, when and how often? At what point do they become un-safe? Would you have the race become an even bigger farce with teams pitting every second lap to check the tyres?

As for running the new tyres with a penalty, thats probably just as unsafe as running the old ones. The tyres were untested on the track. What if the engineers got it wrong again? Would you be happy to strap on a set of "unknow quantity" tyres and go and race on them?

I didn't say it's Ferraris fault, but they could have done more to facilitate a solution and chose not to. The blame for the crap tyres and the resulting dillema obviously lies with Michelin. The blame for the subsiquent crap race isn't as clear cut.

[Daddles]

This from a statement by the FIA on Monday

"Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate by clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.

"At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess.

"However the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane. The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down.

"The Michelin teams' lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One."


I'm not that annoyed that Michelin were so unprofessional as to present an unsafe tyre, though it should be noted that two weeks ago, the FIA warned Michelin not to compromise safety for performance - this after Kimi's dramas with the flat spot and the blown suspension. Clearly Michelin didn't listen.

But the disgrace in this situation is Michelin's behaviour in trying to get the rules changed to suit them. Remember Stoddart trying to run last year's cars at Melbourne? In both cases, the team/manufacturer, tried to blackmail the FIA who, for a change made a sensible decision and stuck to the line that if your equiptment isn't up to scratch, you have to accept the consequences.

A six car race is pretty silly, but anything else would have been true Formula Farce, and we see too much of that in F1 as it is.

Richard

[pau1]

Trying to blame Ferrari for this is sheer, unadulterated nonsense. Come on. This forum is above that. If you want to play those games, try one of the F1 forums.

Daddles I can't believe that you gave me a "red one" for expressing my opinion about the topic at hand. Did I hurt your delicate sensablities by pointing out the fact that Ferrari sat on the fence? You tell me to take it to a F1 forum, but the topic was posted here for discussion and you seem quite happy to wade into the debate yourself but take offence to me expressing my opinion! I don't hate Ferrari and I think the Shu is one of the all time best drivers. I do however think that Ferrari don't always do what is good for the sport but they always do what is good for Ferarri.

[Daddles]

Paul (it is Paul is it?),

I read your first post as that of a Ferrari hater. I see too many of them, and haters of other drivers (JPM and DC cop a lot of it too) to feel comfortable with that at any level, though EVERY team and driver is open to criticism. If I've misunderstood you, I apologise, unreservedly.

Richard

[pau1]

Paul (it is Paul is it?),

I read your first post as that of a Ferrari hater. I see too many of them, and haters of other drivers (JPM and DC cop a lot of it too) to feel comfortable with that at any level, though EVERY team and driver is open to criticism. If I've misunderstood you, I apologise, unreservedly.

Richard
Not a problem. I just don't "hate" any team or driver. Every driver has his moments and every team has it's place even those struggling at the back.

[Fat Pat]

Michelin did the wrong thing, and then the right thing. Believe it or not.

First they didn't produce the correct tyres, which is absolutely appalling, but then they 'fessed up and advised the teams that they shouldn't run.

But WHY (?) did they have to screw up in the U.S.???? It has been hard enough to crack the Yank market, and it looked like they had finally done it, and at the "Home" of U.S. Motorsport - Indy. This is the worst kind of power hungry Bureaucratic BS that the FIA/Eccelstone/Mosely roadshow could possible put on. Why couldn't they do it at Belgium, no sorry bad place - Eau Rouge is far too pretty a section to not have on TV. Somewhere other that the U.S. and there wouldn't have been the drama, they would have just sorted it out. Instead they had to engage in this petty brinkmanship in front of 100-150,000 Americans.

What is the correct solution? Dunno? All I know is that I didn't appreciate getting out of bed BEFORE the crack of dawn to watch 6 cars start the bloody race! The most enlightened solution I have heard was to give the 6 starters (Ferrari, Jordan, Minardi) their points - since they would be getting them anyway, allow all starters to use whatever tyres they wanted (or allowed the chicane) plus tyre changes, and run it as a non-championship event - then you would have seen some REAL fireworks. That way we would have all seen a full race, and everyone, whilst not being entirely happy, could have had their P!ssing contest away from the track! There are plenty of non-championship precedents in F1 history.

Very likely, they have poisoned that market permanently. Be that as it may, my feeling is that this has been manufactured by the GPWC mob, to sabotage the F1 championship. We shall see what will happen in the near future.

C'mon Mark Webber!

[Studley 2436]

I think it is such a shame that they couldn't put on a show for the crowd. I read on grandprix.com that similar stuff has happened in Nascar and they managed to get past the problem with a compromise and run a race with a full field.

I did hear on the telecast that the michelin teams were prepared to run on the replacement tires for no points. Would that have been so bad? The FIA it seems were strong on teams obeying the rules. Apparantly Ferrari were in on that as well. Maybe the Michelins have been marginal but faster the whole time and so the Bridgestone teams mainly Ferrari have struggled to be on the pace. Bring back tire changes I say. Then if you have tire problems you can still pit and race on.

Anyway no one is in any doubt that F1 is in a sick and sorry state. It is a lot like the days of ground effects and then when turbos came in. There was a bit of the same divide then with the English teams against Ferrari. The trouble is the teams are all acting in their own interest and noone seems to be acting for the good of the sport or the fans. The whole thing could die a sad and sorry death before it resurected itself as Formula World or whatever.

While I am bleating I have heard some good proposals. Like less downforce and less electronics and manually controlled gearboxes just like they used to have. The problems have always been because it is such an engineering formula. They engineer the car it runs around scores points and a better driver can do little about it. The teams are investing huge amounts of money naturally they aren't concerned about keeping the sport in it. They want a safe return on their investment.

Enough of that I think there are many of us dissapointed in what has happened.

Stephen

[Stuart]

Hi Jack,

Wasn't intending to be contradictory.

As I understood it, there was a request for a chicane, that 9 teams signed. Ferrari were one of the teams that did not, and one of the comments I heard on the coverage that night was they had stepped back and were not involving themselves in the decision - approving or disapproving. I took that to mean that they would race whatever was put in front of them.

They did not block the chicane - there was none to block. The FIA decided not to proceed with the proposal made by the Michelin teams.

I must admit - there has been much more reaction to this that I predicted! There is obvious division between Ferrari supporters, and "the rest".

Some info came up that I had not heard- the speed sensing thing for one.

And despite positions for/against the decisions made on the day, and the mud slinging bit, I think there is a general concensus about the overall state of the F1, and where they have gone wrong.

This situation may cause an over-reaction which would be very unfortunate, but hopefully, it will highlight a great many things about what the fans want to see, and that decisions made in recent times have caused a great deal of dissatisfaction throughout the F1.

Not everyone 'gets' formula 1, and it may seem like an endless progression of cars. (Me - I don't 'get' cricket, or soccer (oops -sorry - football)). But for those that do- lets hope this disaster leads to better things in the sport.

[dazzler]

I looooooove formula one,

It helps me sleep after a hectic weekend :D.

cheers

dazzler

[Daddles]

Ferrari weren't even consulted about the chicane. It's not their fault. To be fair, Ross Brawn has admitted that they would not have agreed with the proposal BUT, they were NEVER consulted.

Michelin produced sub-standard tyres and then demanded that the Bridgestone runners restrict their race to match the Michelins.

Michelin runners could have raced by doing two things - reduce downforce so as not to stress the tyres or pit for new tyres every ten laps. Either of these would have been a massive disadvantage to the Michelin runners but we could have had a race with 20 starters.

Consider this.
The Bridgestone tyres don't warm up for at least three laps yet there is no suggestion that the Bridgestone runners be allowed three warm up laps in qualifying so that they can qualify with tyres at operating temperatures. In other words, Michelin is happy to accept a technical disadvantage for Bridgestone but unwilling to accept one for themselves.

When the Sauber's suffered rear wing failures last year, they chose not to race, yet Michelin did not suggest that all their teams run at a lower speed or fit a chicane to the main straight so that Sauber might compete. Michelin is happy to accept a technical disadvantage for others but not for themselves.

Minardi are dog slow - reasonable in a straight line but like Barry Sheene's shopping trolly when it comes to handling. Michelin have at not time suggested that the other teams be nobbled or the tracks be changed so that Minardi can race on equal levels. Michelin is happy to accept a technical disadvantage for others but not for themselves.

The blame for this whole disaster lies squarely with Michelin. They failed to produce a race worthy tyre and then demanded that everyone else accept restrictions to remove that disadvantage. They attempted to blackmail the FIA who sensibly called their bluff. Michelin could have raced, but they chose to issue their statement that made it impossible for any of their teams to compete under any circumstances, yet it was possible for Michelin shod teams to run, albeit at a massive disadvantage.

Michelin are the demons here. No one else.

Richard

[Studley 2436]

Michelin produced sub-standard tyres and then demanded that the Bridgestone runners restrict their race to match the Michelins.

Richard
My thoughts Richard are not that the Michelins are sub standard, but rather that they are tuned to such a standard there is no margin. It has worked well for them up until now but came unstuck this weekend.A bit like in the old DFV days when they sometimes had a hand grenade engine in the shed to qualify with.

I can understand Bridgestone not being really friendly about giving something to Michelin when the Michelin strategy came unstuck. After all the Michelin strategy has seen the Bridgestone runners at a disadvantage this year.

Stevo

[Daddles]

That's probably a fairer way of saying the same thing Stevo. Michelin have been playing it close to the wire for a long time now - just look at the slick tyres that come off their cars, and it's finally hit home. Pity it took out most of the grid, but I now believe that it didn't have to take out the grid. Only Michelin's arrogance in the way they demanded that the other teams be disadvantaged as well prevented us seeing a race with 20 cars. Methinks they will have a great deal of difficulty winning the control tyre contract when it finally comes in, perhaps as early as next year.

Richard

[soundman]

Now the bottom line here is.
When you enter any motor racing event from the lowest club touring assembly up to the top levels you agree to be bound by the regulations for that event.
And with the high level technical support these teams are suposed to have there should be no surprises for anybody.
Competing within the regulations on the cource as set with your vehicle as legaly prepared is what it is all about.
There is no good reason for this foolish behavior.
cheers