Wipe on varnish over french polish [Archive]

View Full Version : Wipe on varnish over french polish

Pavel

18th June 2005, 01:59 PM

Robert WA

18th June 2005, 04:54 PM

Can a layer of wipe on varnish be used over french polish? Is one varnish layer thin enough not to spoil french polish look but still stong enough to protect the surface (i.e. from alcohol marks).

Pavel

French polish is shellac dissolved in metho and applied via a mystical procedure, akin to witchcraft, to produce a fine finish.
French polishers can be recognised by the fact that they have little horns protruding from their heads and are always as high as kites from breathing the fumes.
Shellac is often used as a coat over raw timber to show up blemishes, as a pre final sanding filler cum fibre raiser and to give some protection.
Apart from the fact that a spirit based varnish will dissolve the shellac and thereby offend the ancient Gods, I don't know of any reason why you can't apply a varnish over the top.
One word of caution. French polish finishes are often waxed from time to time by house proud significant others. Varnishing over wax could create a problem.

Pavel

18th June 2005, 06:28 PM

...Apart from the fact that a spirit based varnish will dissolve the shellac and thereby offend the ancient Gods, I don't know of any reason why you can't apply a varnish over the top...
Yes spirit based varnish will probably ruin french polish but what about oil based varnish? Oil based varnish won't dissolve french polish. Are there any problems here?

Pavel

ozwinner

18th June 2005, 06:39 PM

<CENTER><TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="98%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=middle><?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /><v:shapetype id=_x0000_t136 adj="10800" path=" m@7,0 l@8,0 m@5,21600 l@6,21600 e" o:spt="136" coordsize="21600,21600"><V:p</V:p<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><o:lock v:ext=</o:lock></v:shapetype><v:shape id=_x0000_s1025 style=" 417pt; 34.5pt" coordsize="21600,21600" strokeweight="1.5pt" strokecolor="white" fillcolor="#7a007a" alt="HARD SHELLAC" type="#_x0000_t136"><v:fill type="gradientRadial" focussize="0,0" focusposition=".5,.5" color2="#c0c" rotate="t"></v:fill><v:shadow on="t" opacity="52429f" color="black"></v:shadow><v:textpath style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Impact'; v-text-kern: t" string="HARD SHELLAC" trim="t" fitpath="t"></v:textpath></v:shape>

HARDENED DEWAXED WHITE SHELLAC <HR></TD></TR></CENTER><TR><TD vAlign=top width="100%">

http://www.ubeaut.com.au/hardsh1.jpg <CENTER>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width=387 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=209>SIZE</TD><TD width=77>PRICE </TD><TD width=95>TAX</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=381 colSpan=3><HR align=left width="95%"></TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width=209>500ml bottle with flip top lid

5 litre black poison bottle

</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left width=36>A$24.00

A$150.00

</TD><TD vAlign=top align=left width=136>+ GST in Australia

+ GST in Australia
</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=bottom align=left width=381 colSpan=3 height=45>

ORDER FORM (https://secure.netconnect.net.au/ubeaut/price2.html#m5) <HR align=left width="95%"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Ever wished you had a finish that was as easy to use as shellac but with the durability of polyurethane? Well wish no more, because here it is.

This unique Hardened Shellac creates a film that will withstand heat, water and alcohol, yet it is used in exactly the same was as any normal shellac. It can be applied with a rubber as French polish, brushed, sprayed and dipped.

</CENTER>
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Al ;)

Pavel

18th June 2005, 07:02 PM

...HARDENED DEWAXED WHITE SHELLAC...
Yes I know about such beast. But this doesn't answer my question (I never asked about hardened shellac but about varnish over french polish).

Pavel

Robert WA

18th June 2005, 07:08 PM

Pavel.
I can't answer your question as to the effect of oil based varnish. Whatever you put over french polish will, surely, ruin it as a finish. The point of the exercise is to create a new finish.
My father was an avid, part time french polisher and, having watched him perform the ritual, my view is that 1200 grit sandpaper is the best thing to put over it, followed closely by the less fragile finish of your choice and then take a 6 month holiday in the time you save.
I don't know anything about the product Al suggests. It is a U-Beaut product and you can go to their site from a link at the bottom of this page. U-Beaut sponsers this site (thanks again guys) so you should use their products as often as you can. (That should be worth a greenie or two.) :)

ozwinner

18th June 2005, 07:11 PM

Robert WA

18th June 2005, 07:18 PM

Al.

"Stop ya whingen and go here.... www.ubeaut.com.au"

Whoops. Keep the foiley on.

Rob.

Pavel

18th June 2005, 07:44 PM

Thanks guys. Looks like nobody tried putting varnish over french polish. Maybe this is just a stupid or creazy idea :confused: BTW I own Neil's book and I think somewhere it encourages readers to experiment (or didn't it).

Pavel

soundman

18th June 2005, 08:58 PM

Have you thaught of a nice slab of glass.
It will certainly resist most solvents & abrasion. It doesn't offend the shelac gods & its very easily reversable.

Some of the more refined :rolleyes: would consider varnishing over french polish like re iceing a finished wedding cake with fresh dog .

cheers

Sturdee

18th June 2005, 09:08 PM

Some of the more refined :rolleyes: would consider varnishing over french polish like re iceing a finished wedding cake with fresh dog .

cheers

And so eloquently spoken, but very true. Why hide a brilliant finish that takes a lot effort to get under a dull varnish. :confused:

BTW thanks for considering me one of the more refined. :D

Peter.

ozwinner

18th June 2005, 09:19 PM

echnidna

18th June 2005, 11:34 PM

Polyurethane and Lacquer will both go over shellac successfully

Pavel

18th June 2005, 11:35 PM

And so eloquently spoken, but very true. Why hide a brilliant finish that takes a lot effort to get under a dull varnish.
Sorry for being so persistant (or stupid if you wish). You are saying that even one thin varnish layer (which is really thin if wipe on varnish is used) will still be that noticeable. How can you be so sure if you never tried it?

Pavel

Jill

19th June 2005, 06:03 AM

Hi Pavel,

I have some antique furniture my great-grandfather made out of silky oak, that was finished with shellac (brushed on, I was told - though not sure) PLUS a varnish of some sort over the top. (Sorry about the lack of the main info you needed!) 40 plus years down the track, the finish is great, despite heavy use. He died even before I was born, so I can't find out what varnish he used, sorry. I would experiment.

Cheers,

Jill

rsser

19th June 2005, 05:01 PM

Hi Pavel, when young and foolish I used Estapol on two French-polished tables. Worked fine. Maybe there was no wax on either.

In one case, after some years I sanded back to bare wood, put on some more coats of Shellac and redid the Estapol.

I wouldn't do it again though, since Estapol is some kind of plakky and while it resists water and heat well enough, it scratches easily and is impossible to repair. Next time I'll go for a burnished oil finish. That should be compatible with the shellac that's soaked into the timber.

Sturdee

19th June 2005, 08:44 PM

Sorry for being so persistant (or stupid if you wish). You are saying that even one thin varnish layer (which is really thin if wipe on varnish is used) will still be that noticeable. How can you be so sure if you never tried it?

Pavel

Pavel,

No worries about being persistant but we may have different definitions of french polishing. If you brush on a few coats of shellac and then want to seal it with varnish fair enough. It would work as the solvents are different. But that is not french polishing, it is giving the piece a good shellacking.

However you asked about varnish on top of french polishing. Last year I french polished our bedroom suite. I stripped it back to bare wood, removing the previous lacquer surface, then hand sanded it to 400 #, stained it with a spirit stain to match all pieces the same and then started french polishing.

After 2 brush coats, each rubbed back with steel wool, I started polishing with a rubber until a shine was obtained. Then this was rubbed back with steel wool and repeated again and again until the pores were filled to the extent that I wanted the look to be. Only then did I start to build up the surface polish, and rubbing back each time, until each piece had a smooth, glasslike mirror shine. Then I finally gave it a hard wax covering.

The whole process took about 4 1/2 months working about 4 days a week. That is what I call french polishing and to then cover it with a duller look varnish is indeed sacrilege :eek: as so aptly put by others.

That's why I haven't tried it. The finish achieved with french polishing is already perfect and if it needed a harder cover I would not french polish it in the first place but I would give it a few brush coats of Ubeaut's Hard Shellac.

That way I still wouldn't need a varnish finish.

Peter.

ubeaut

22nd June 2005, 02:55 AM

Pavel - Sorry, haven't been around to reply. Personally I wouldn't go over FP with a varnish or polyu for the following reasons.

1: it will only make the slightest difference to the resistance of the finish to heat, water or alcohol marking.

2: it will do absolutely nothing to enhance the finish, in fact it will most likely make it look pretty ordinary.

3: it is very hard to repair when it does get damaged - and it will.

4: it most likely won't be 100% compatible with the FP and may either craze or cause the FP to craze as they will most likely move at different rates during temperature and other climatic changes.

5: ordinary FP contains a certain amount of wax which may stop the top coat of stuff from adhering properly thereby allowing it to peal off at a later date. Have seen this happen numerous times. You can go over the dewaxed variety with other finishes without this problem occurring, that is why our sanding sealer is based on dewaxed shellac.

6: as mentioned by earlier posters, if the surface has been waxed and it probably has if it is an antique, or had Mr Sheen or similar used on it then what ever you put on will most likely make a real mess of the surface and will surely fall off at a later date.

My personal preference for a French polished finish is to education of the users. Always use cork or other insulating place mats, use coasters and use a table cloth and runners etc on the table.

Using our Polish Reviver (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/reviver.html) from time to time can help retard the time it takes to damage the surface of FP and make it much less susceptible to damage from water, heat and alcohol.

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers - Neil :)