Help please! Stripping & restoring magnificent cedar fireplace, architraves and doors

[marionbelle]

Hello, I am looking for suggestions regarding the stripping and restoration of cedar timberwork in the bedroom of my 1850s homestead. There is a fireplace surround, 2 French doors, solid door, window, architraves and skirting boards. I have had a little experience in stripping paint from cedar in another room and finishing it with shellac. For some reason the shellac/varnish in this room is extremely crazed and thick. I am not sure why this has happened. I have started on the fireplace rubbing it back with steel wool and metho and lots of elbow grease. It is a big room so I was wondering if there are any easier methods to use, I am guessing the answer is probably no! All suggestions from the gurus of cedar and shellac gratefully accepted. Should I use a different technique/finish on say the skirting boards compared to the doors? Looking forward to your responses. Marion

[shedbound]

could it be possible that in the past someone has applied varnish/estapol? Does the metho alone dissolve the finish?

[marionbelle]

could it be possible that in the past someone has applied varnish/estapol? Does the metho alone dissolve the finish? Hi Shedbound, I have been here for 40 years and in that time nothing has been applied to it. But possibly it could have happened in the sixties? Metho is dissolving the finish but requiring lots of effort, especially the lumpy bits.

[FenceFurniture]

Hi Marion, and welcome.

The are plenty here can advise with knowledge and experience (it would be good if wouldwood would come in) but to my far from expert eye it looks like shellac that may have been heat affected causing the craziness (or do you use other things for that? :;). Especially, as you say, that metho eventually gets it moving. Certainly seen that sort of pattern on similar things of similar age.

I wonder how a gentle heat gun and paint scraper would work on the tough bits? You could try it on an inconspicuous part.

[burraboy]

I wouldn't touch it myself. You can't buy patina and character like that!

[FenceFurniture]

I wouldn't touch it myself. You can't buy patina and character like that!Yeah, there is always that.....helluva lot less work too.....

It makes it difficult to choose when there is the promise of some lovely timber underneath.

[LGS]

Hi Marionbelle,

Welcome to the forums. I hope you get the info you need and have fun getting it. If the Metho is moving the finish, then it is most probably Shellac. Red Cedar finished with Shellac is magnificent.

I would suggest that you send a PM to Neil (our benevolent dictator) and ask for advice. He is a polisher and restorer of some note. But please be careful using things like heat to remove the mess. Cedar mars easily.

Here's a box lid finished with Tung Oil and then Shellac. It's what you can look forward to, I 'spose. Definitely worth the work.

Regards,

Rob

[marionbelle]

Yeah, there is always that.....helluva lot less work too.....

It makes it difficult to choose when there is the promise of some lovely timber underneath. Believe me I was very tempted to leave it alone after stripping the other room which had been painted white! But like you say what you find underneath is worth it. The photos below show the fireplace and door I did up a long time ago in the other bedroom. Then the other unrestored door. I have started stripping, too late to stop now!

[marionbelle]

Hi Marionbelle,

Welcome to the forums. I hope you get the info you need and have fun getting it. If the Metho is moving the finish, then it is most probably Shellac. Red Cedar finished with Shellac is magnificent.

I would suggest that you send a PM to Neil (our benevolent dictator) and ask for advice. He is a polisher and restorer of some note. But please be careful using things like heat to remove the mess. Cedar mars easily.

Here's a box lid finished with Tung Oil and then Shellac. It's what you can look forward to, I 'spose. Definitely worth the work.

Regards,

Rob Thanks for everyones replies. I will PM Neil as suggested. LGS do you put Tung Oil on first or the shellac? I have some old shellac does it last or should I buy some new shellac? Thank you LGS, I realise that heat guns and cedar have to be treated very carefully due to past experience.

[FenceFurniture]

Gotta love the restored door - timber wins over character in that case!

[chrrris]

Hi,
I've been going through the same process recently, though my fireplace was almost black throughout with a century of soot and furniture polish. The carvings under the mantle are also much more complicated with much deeper relief.

My process was the mask all the surroundings and then go to town with litres of methylated spirits, brushes, scourers, steel wool and paper towels. The meths may take some time to soften the lumps, as you've found. I found that once the finish came off the grain had been filled with plaster of paris. I initially tried to get all this off, but found it disappeared when wet, so trusted that when I re-applied an new finish it would not be seen.

I found that it was important to soak up any excess meths with the paper towels before it dried or it would leave ugly streaking.

I've just applied a coat of BLO in preparation for a good shellacing :) and it looks great (if darker than the raw wood).

Regards,
Chris.

[LGS]

Hi Marion,

I put the Tung Oil on first, wipe it off after about 15 minutes, then give the Cedar some time (a week?) to dry. Then a light sand at about 400-600 grit and wipe down the work piece. You can then apply the shellac. My advice would be to throw the old Shellac and buy a new bottle.

Regards,

Rob

[marionbelle]

Hi,
I've been going through the same process recently, though my fireplace was almost black throughout with a century of soot and furniture polish. The carvings under the mantle are also much more complicated with much deeper relief.

My process was the mask all the surroundings and then go to town with litres of methylated spirits, brushes, scourers, steel wool and paper towels. The meths may take some time to soften the lumps, as you've found. I found that once the finish came off the grain had been filled with plaster of paris. I initially tried to get all this off, but found it disappeared when wet, so trusted that when I re-applied an new finish it would not be seen.

I found that it was important to soak up any excess meths with the paper towels before it dried or it would leave ugly streaking.

I've just applied a coat of BLO in preparation for a good shellacing :) and it looks great (if darker than the raw wood).

Regards,
Chris. Hi Chris, Sorry I am not up on wood finishing terms, what is BLO ?

[Christos]

Hi Chris, Sorry I am not up on wood finishing terms, what is BLO ?


Boiled Linseed Oil

[chrrris]

Boiled Linseed Oil

Sorry, :whs:.

Cheers,
Chris.

[DaveTTC]

I stripped mine back to bare wood. Got an old carpenters chisel and ground it to match the profiled section and just scrapped it back till it was ready to sand.

Time wise would have been cheaper to buy a new door but you cant build history.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/05/eje9epap.jpg

The window I used stripper. Should have done what I did with the door. Did the window first and learnt from my mistakes.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/05/05/qu8e5ehy.jpg

Flat sections I used a plane and or sander


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hi,

I have restored a 3 storey sandstone ashlar heritage house in Tasmania (National Trust and National Estate listed) and won an award for what we did so I do have some experience. Please do not use Tung oil on a heritage fireplace. Wonderful though that may be in some circumstances, it is not appropriate for heritage conservation. Besides IMO a good shellac finish gives a better view into the beauty of the timber (except outdoors of course where the weather destroys it).

I agree with others here that the lovely old crackle finish was the best, and very beautiful in its own right. After all, why try to make an old house new? BUT, having started please do the minimum and keep a shellac finish.

I hope that you enjoy your old house and do not remove all the signs of age -- those signs are the patina that makes the place special. If you want everything new you may as well buy a brick veneer!

This forum is about timber and the beauty of it as shown in woodwork and turning. You will not get the best advice about heritage work from those who only make new woodwork, no matter how expert they are at what they do (and many are very expert in that compared to me).

Regards

David

[DaveTTC]

David,

My door above ... would you suggest shellac for that? It had been shellac then painted over


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hi Dave,

If the door is in an old house then yes, I would certainly recommend shellac, as that is what would have been used and it gives a really great finish that shows the beauty of the timber. Now, as a personal preference, I have to admit to a dislike of orange flake shellac, BUT others love it and I respect that. I polish with the original button shellac, others love flake and it is worth looking at Ubeaut's offerings as they can provide an easy entry to a good shellac finish.

Your door looks like Californian Redwood if it is old enough, but later and similar doors were made in Oregon and Western Red Cedar (All North American conifer timbers that were imported here).

I hope that this helps. Feel free to PM if you want my supplier for the button shellac.

Regards David

[DaveTTC]

Id say my door is likely 1880 give or take a decade


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Id say my door is likely 1880 give or take a decade


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

Hi Dave,

I have finished some internal Australian Cedar doors with brown button shellac and a lacquer brush and have had good results. Back in the 1880s button shellac would have been the only choice I think, though I do not know when flake shellac was introduced. The orange flake gives everything a distinct orange colour. Today you can buy all different types including different colour buttons and made-up solutions that are clear and harder than the original.

See photos below for effect with the brown button shellac. For furniture I find that applying the shellac with a rubber gives the best results by far, except for carved and small diameter turned sections. A rubber is simply a piece of fine, lint-free cotton (like old sheets) around a smooth pad of some wadding like cotton wool (roll form is better than the cotton balls).

312722 312721 Cedar doors finished with brown button shellac and a lacquer brush.

However, for the doors, using a rubber would take a very long time and is not necessary. The lacquer brushes that I use are special extremely fine natural hair brushes - squirrel hair being one of them. As you can see, you get a decent result. The technique is to break the buttons into smaller pieces and dissolve them in metho. I use a 4 litre bottle from bunnies as it is cheapest. First you make up a stock solution with about 250 grams of buttons to 4 litres. You need to then filter the solution through some cheese cloth (or other coarse fabric of some kind) to remove the muck in it. Depending on my patience level I either break that solution down 1 part stock to three parts metho to make my working solution - or leave it more concentrated if I want a faster build up. The faster the build the more opaque the finish - less clarity and beauty of timber showing. Between every couple of coats - once they are dry - you must rub the finish over with very fine (800 to 1000 grit at first) wet and dry sandpaper. That rubbing down helps to keep the finish smooth and even. I rub down between the final few coats with 1200 grit. The paper clogs easily so you need a good, more affordable bulk supply like from the Sandpaper Man.

UBeaut sell a polishers handbook that most likely gives much better instructions than I have given here. I must admit that I do not have a copy as I was taught to polish by an Austrian cabinetmaker about 40 years ago and have developed my own versions that work for me, but the book would be a good start for someone just learning the techniques.

I hope that this helps.

Regards

David

[DaveTTC]

David,

thats great ... I will fllow thru on that and find out about this button shellac etc. You dont have a cheap source for these brushed at all? I believe they can be expensive.


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

[Xanthorrhoeas]

David,

thats great ... I will fllow thru on that and find out about this button shellac etc. You dont have a cheap source for these brushed at all? I believe they can be expensive.


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

Hi Dave,

I knew that question was coming and have been searching for the answer. It isn't that long ago that I bought new ones (after the Brisbane 2011 flood that ruined my earlier ones) so I should have the details somewhere - but just where escapes me at the moment. My original ones were purchased from Tas paints in Hobart and were over $60 each. They don't sell them anymore but they did give me a recommendation as to a new source, and I purchased from that source. From memory the new brushes were about $30 to $40 each. I am awaiting a call back from the owner of the store so will post the details if he calls me.

Regards

David

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hi Dave,

I knew that question was coming and have been searching for the answer. It isn't that long ago that I bought new ones (after the Brisbane 2011 flood that ruined my earlier ones) so I should have the details somewhere - but just where escapes me at the moment. My original ones were purchased from Tas paints in Hobart and were over $60 each. They don't sell them anymore but they did give me a recommendation as to a new source, and I purchased from that source. From memory the new brushes were about $30 to $40 each. I am awaiting a call back from the owner of the store so will post the details if he calls me.

Regards

David

Tas paints called me back but, unfortunately, they say that their suppliers no longer stock these kind of brushes so they could no longer recommend someone - but they suggested searching on the internet and told me they were called blending brushes and that squirrel hair was common. I have had a pretty good search in my records but have not found where I purchased mine. However, my brushes are branded "Made in Germany" and "Leonhardy VP" one is model 230 squirrel hair and one is a 2 inch Ox hair (latter was the most expensive from memory). Both work well for me. The company URL is http://www.leonhardy-vp.de/pages/en/menu_main/home.php.

Sorry I couldn't be more help - If I do stumble upon my receipt in the next few days I will update.

Regards

David

[DaveTTC]

Thanks David


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Thanks David


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

Hi Dave,

Simon Desmarchelier from Tas Paints has come up trumps. The Woodworks Book and Tool Co, Sydney has them. Here is the link: http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=12898&category_id=195&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=91&manufacturer_id=

The other brush I have is the skunk hair and it is expensive - about $83 now! The squirrel hair works just fine though!

Regards

David

[Xanthorrhoeas]

Hi Dave,

it was good to meet you in person today at the Brisbane wood show.

Leonhardy, the German company that makes these brushes tells me that their Australian agent is The Gold leaf Factory International Pty. Ltd. Email: [email protected] | Web: www.goldleaf.com.au (http://www.goldleaf.com.au) PO Box 912, Frankston VIC 3199, Australia Telephone : +61 3 9786 2247 | Facsimile: +61 3 9785 1145.

Andrew from that company has contacted me to say that they have the squirrel hair brush at about $17.00 (plus postage of course) http://www.goldleaf.com.au/catalog/flat-hair-brushes-c-33_67.html

I have also been thinking about the finish for your doors. I do believe that shellac is the best finish, and that a brushed on finish is ok for doors. I also know that you have a critical shortage of time to prepare the room. Why don't you buy some shellac while here in Brisbane and use the finest brush that you can find? As long as you sand it back between every few coats you will get a good finish.

Regards

David

[DaveTTC]

Hi David,

That is great, thanks a lot.

Was good to meet you also. Fantastic time to faces to names and Names to user ID's


Dave the turning cowboy

turning wood into art

[fletty]

Hi Marion and welcome, I'm sorry but I've been off the forum for a while. I had a very similar situation with a very old turned red cedar vase. The shellac finish was identical to your 'lumpy' pics! I used Howard's restor-a-finish which (in my words) dissolves and redistributes the existing shellac finish. It took very little effort with restor-a-finish and steel wool to soften the lumps and spread them back to where they should be which is evenly spread over that glorious timber of yours. I hope you haven't already stripped it all?
fletty

Hello, I am looking for suggestions regarding the stripping and restoration of cedar timberwork in the bedroom of my 1850s homestead. There is a fireplace surround, 2 French doors, solid door, window, architraves and skirting boards. I have had a little experience in stripping paint from cedar in another room and finishing it with shellac. For some reason the shellac/varnish in this room is extremely crazed and thick. I am not sure why this has happened. I have started on the fireplace rubbing it back with steel wool and metho and lots of elbow grease. It is a big room so I was wondering if there are any easier methods to use, I am guessing the answer is probably no! All suggestions from the gurus of cedar and shellac gratefully accepted. Should I use a different technique/finish on say the skirting boards compared to the doors? Looking forward to your responses. Marion