Lacquer

[garym]

Ok, I'll look like an idiot again, I watch a lot of YouTube woodworking videos. Ok I realise that 95% are North American and what they have there is often either called something differently or not available at all here, but one thing that comes up again and again is "I'll just finish this with a couple of coats of lacquer". Ok, I have heard of lacquer - I am sure I used it 45 years ago in my woodworking class. Sure, it's a well known finish, isn't it?.

So I go to Bunnings: Lacquer? what's that? never heard of it.

I go to Home Hardware: Lacquer? what's that? never heard of it.

I go to a local paint specialist: Lacquer? what's that? never heard of it.

W-T-F What is going on???? Am I going insane?

[Claw Hama]

Ok, I'll look like an idiot again, I watch a lot of YouTube woodworking videos. Ok I realise that 95% are North American and what they have there is often either called something differently or not available at all here, but one thing that comes up again and again is "I'll just finish this with a couple of coats of lacquer". Ok, I have heard of lacquer - I am sure I used it 45 years ago in my woodworking class. Sure, it's a well known finish, isn't it?.

So I go to Bunnings: Lacquer? what's that? never heard of it.

I go to Home Hardware: Lacquer? what's that? never heard of it.

I go to a local paint specialist: Lacquer? what's that? never heard of it.

W-T-F What is going on???? Am I going insane?

Hi Gary
I think lacquer, these days in Australia at least, mean any sort of varnish, lacquer, estapol, polyurethane etc. I'm sure you could buy a lacquer from maybe an auto paint supplier or other specialty supplier that is a thinner base product (very general terms I'm using here)
All depends of what you are finishing and what requirements you need. I use quite a bit of polyurethane floor finishes on my furniture etc. Tough, durable, easy to apply, my favorite is Cabots which I have found after trying many to be much tougher than most by an almost measurable amount.
Let us know what you are up to and we might be able to throw some more light on the subject for your:U

Sorry the other super easy finish is the wipe on polyurethanes which really are almost fool proof. At Bunnies etc "Wipe on Poly" satin or gloss.

[garym]

Hi Gary
I think lacquer, these days in Australia at least, mean any sort of varnish, lacquer, estapol, polyurethane etc. I'm sure you could buy a lacquer from maybe an auto paint supplier or other specialty supplier that is a thinner base product (very general terms I'm using here)
All depends of what you are finishing and what requirements you need. I use quite a bit of polyurethane floor finishes on my furniture etc. Tough, durable, easy to apply, my favorite is Cabots which I have found after trying many to be much tougher than most by an almost measurable amount.
Let us know what you are up to and we might be able to throw some more light on the subject for your:U

Sorry the other super easy finish is the wipe on polyurethanes which really are almost fool proof. At Bunnies etc "Wipe on Poly" satin or gloss.

Thanks Claw Hama, where I disagree with you is I am pretty sure if you swapped lacquer and varnish you would be spot on! And therein lies the rub we seem to have all the forms of varnish except lacquer. The point is that all the types of "varnish" have slightly different characteristics - for instance I applied Wipe on Poly" over acrylic white paint and it turned it yellow - this is not "project" based it is just my eternal quest to learn what is best to use where.

The main difference between a lacquer and say a polyurethane is it dissolves into the previous coat (like shellac - and as the name suggests I think shellac is a lacquer - but not the one I refer to).

[Rod Gilbert]

Hi all,
Lacquer's tends to be more commercially used(mirrortone,wattly,croda just a few brand's) simple to apply by spray equipment it dose'nt take a lot of time like some of the hand worked finishes(it is fast to apply) and gives a good finish. The way in which each finish reacts with each other depends on the solvent for each type eg: turps based,water base,thinner base,alcohol base some will go over the other some will not. Shellac being the best sealer of all times most of anything that bleeds through pen marks on painted walls, resins that bleed through can be sealed with shellac then painted over no problem. These products should be readily available from paint specialist try asking for nitro-cellious lacquer.
Regards Rod.

[garym]

Hi all,
Lacquer's tends to be more commercially used(mirrortone,wattly,croda just a few brand's) simple to apply by spray equipment it dose'nt take a lot of time like some of the hand worked finishes(it is fast to apply) and gives a good finish. The way in which each finish reacts with each other depends on the solvent for each type eg: turps based,water base,thinner base,alcohol base some will go over the other some will not. Shellac being the best sealer of all times most of anything that bleeds through pen marks on painted walls, resins that bleed through can be sealed with shellac then painted over no problem. These products should be readily available from paint specialist try asking for nitro-cellious lacquer.
Regards Rod.

Thank's Rod.

So it's a specialist product in Oz for some reason? strange.

I only have access to one specialist paint store down here in the Southern Highlands and they glazed over when I asked - but they aren't much chop in general unless you go in for 5 cans of house paint.

However it sounds like, if I can identify a particular product, I should be able to have it ordered in. Alas it is my experience that when a product is a "specialist product" it is also very expensive. We'll see.

Interesting tip about the shellac on "bleed through" materials. I bought some shellac for use as a sealer on pine to prevent blotching but haven't tried it yet - it sounds like it could also be useful for sealing knot sap?

[garym]

I should have thought about this sooner, but the next time I'm in Bunning's et. al. I'll ask them why they sell lacquer thinner but not lacquer. That should set them back on their heels a bit - I enjoy doing that ha ha ;-) (although their fall back response is nearly always "try special orders" sigh....)

[garym]

Hmmm, this seems to be the stuff I am looking for:
http://www.timberlywoodturning.co.nz/products/Nitrocellulose-Lacquer-1Litre-30%25.html

Not badly priced in NZ either.

Thank's to Rod I am hot on the trail. Cheers.

[ubeaut]

As Rod said in his post try asking for Nitrocellulose lacquer it is available in a variety of gloss levels 35%, 50%, 70%, etc or at least it used to be. I haven't purchased any for many years now but no reason why it wouldn't still be available.

You could also try asking for a precat lacquer which includes nitro. Most paint manufacturers make it so you but you probably need to go to their shop rather than a general run of the mill paint shop.

Haymes Paints, Wattyl, Durobond, Mirrortone are a few (just realised I'm echoing Rod here) My favorite used to be Haymes, still is as they are pretty much the only Australian owned paint company left and I'd prefer to support them than an overseas company that buys us lot up throes the good bits away and keeps the cash cow part.

Painters Pot are Haymes Distributors usually carry it and will get it in for you if they don't have any in stock.

Find Haymes close to Southern Highlands http://www.haymespaint.com.au/find-a-store/

Lacquer is a specialist product and mostly has been for years as most lacquers need to be sprayed and not everyone has the equipment or the ability to use it because of this. The word lacquer is pretty well misused in the USA as a generic name for a finish of almost any sort. Varnish is also misused as there is little or no varnish available any more. This was made with mixing long and short stand oils and others with resigns and metallic dryers and is almost impossible to get today closest you might come id marine varnish.

Most modern varnish type finishes are polyurethane (plastic) coatings.

Hope this is of some help.

Lacquer isn't all that hard to find in Australia it's just a matter of knowing where to look and the right thing to look/ask for. Yry a google search using "lacquer in Australia".

Cheers - Neil :U

[garym]

As Rod said in his post try asking for Nitrocellulose lacquer it is available in a variety of gloss levels 35%, 50%, 70%, etc or at least it used to be. I haven't purchased any for many years now but no reason why it wouldn't still be available.

You could also try asking for a precat lacquer which includes nitro. Most paint manufacturers make it so you but you probably need to go to their shop rather than a general run of the mill paint shop.

Haymes Paints, Wattyl, Durobond, Mirrortone are a few (just realised I'm echoing Rod here) My favorite used to be Haymes, still is as they are pretty much the only Australian owned paint company left and I'd prefer to support them than an overseas company that buys us lot up throes the good bits away and keeps the cash cow part.

Painters Pot are Haymes Distributors usually carry it and will get it in for you if they don't have any in stock.

Find Haymes close to Southern Highlands http://www.haymespaint.com.au/find-a-store/

Lacquer is a specialist product and mostly has been for years as most lacquers need to be sprayed and not everyone has the equipment or the ability to use it because of this. The word lacquer is pretty well misused in the USA as a generic name for a finish of almost any sort. Varnish is also misused as there is little or no varnish available any more. This was made with mixing long and short stand oils and others with resigns and metallic dryers and is almost impossible to get today closest you might come id marine varnish.

Most modern varnish type finishes are polyurethane (plastic) coatings.

Hope this is of some help.

Lacquer isn't all that hard to find in Australia it's just a matter of knowing where to look and the right thing to look/ask for. Yry a google search using "lacquer in Australia".

Cheers - Neil :U

Thanks Neil, not to seem ungrateful at all but a couple of things you listed are amusing (as it turns out, not because the info is wrong) so I think I'll relate them for entertainment's sake.

Thanks for the Haymes link (BTW it is VERY useful to have a product name) - it actually takes me straight to the paint shop that gave me the glazed look when I went in to ask about it. I suppose I should not be surprised - very few stores have a good knowledge of their suppliers product range - although in these days of computers and the internet you would think they could do a little better than "Sorry we don't have any of that".

"Lacquer isn't all that hard to find in Australia" - LOL I am afraid that I find it hard to find if Bunnings or Home Hardware don't stock it as they are pretty much all I have reasonable access to.

I was fortunate to have internet access back in the 80s when it was only available in major universities - and as a R&D engineer I think I have pretty could internet search skills, so yes I always exhaust "the usual" avenues before coming here - it is surprising how much "inside knowledge" is required in the field of woodworking in Australia.

For amusement sake I recommend to interested parties using the search phrase you suggest ""lacquer in Australia" in Google - I think you'll be surprised at what you find (or don't).

Regarding that lacquer needs to be sprayed - yes that's why I expected to find it in a spray can - that's what most US woodworkers seem to use, although I have spray equipment so that's not a major problem.

Thanks again Neil, you have given me more food for thought, it is much appreciated.

[garym]

Here is an example of the type of thing I was hoping to find:
http://www.amazon.com/Deft-Interior-Lacquer-12-25-Ounce-Aerosol/dp/B0016KXBU4

One thing I neglected to mention was that one of the reasons I wanted to try it is that lacquer seems to provide a non-yellowing finish, whereas , say, polyurethane doesn't.

[garym]

It's also interesting to note that of all the brands mentioned, only 2 Durobond and Mirrortone, produce a search result for lacquer, and they mention it but not the actual product - although Mirrortone seem to have some pigmented products (MIROLAC).

Oh and I have confirmed that the lacquer used in the videos I mentioned are indeed lacquers, specifically nitrocellulose.

[maggs]

Protec also make a product called Catalac that I have used. I bought it from my local automotive paint supplier.

www.protec.com.au

[garym]

Protec also make a product called Catalac that I have used. I bought it from my local automotive paint supplier.

www.protec.com.au (http://www.protec.com.au)

Thanks, that certainly looks the real deal - how much did you pay for it if you don't mind and you remember?

I have also found:
Wattyl STYLWOOD - but have found no retail outlets.


https://www.masters.com.au/product/900006420/wattyl-clear-lacquer-finish-300g - but at that price forget it!

[maggs]

Thanks, that certainly looks the real deal - how much did you pay for it if you don't mind and you remember?

I have also found:
Wattyl STYLWOOD - but have found no retail outlets.


https://www.masters.com.au/product/900006420/wattyl-clear-lacquer-finish-300g - but at that price forget it!

Many years ago I used to use Wattyl A8 lacquer but it got hard to get. Maybe Stylwood is the replacement of that product. I just called my paint supplier and the Protec lacquer is no longer available. They recommended a product called Higard and it's $60.00 for 4 litres.

http://www.hichem.com.au/htmlfiles/industrial%20timber/furniture%20lacquer.htm

[Kev Y.]

I have just purchased a 4lt tin of STYLWOOD 70% and the thinners for it from the local PAINTRIGHT store, they do not have it on the shelf as it is not a generally sought after product.


Kev



Thanks, that certainly looks the real deal - how much did you pay for it if you don't mind and you remember?

I have also found:
Wattyl STYLWOOD - but have found no retail outlets.


https://www.masters.com.au/product/900006420/wattyl-clear-lacquer-finish-300g - but at that price forget it!

[garym]

Many years ago I used to use Wattyl A8 lacquer but it got hard to get. Maybe Stylwood is the replacement of that product. I just called my paint supplier and the Protec lacquer is no longer available. They recommended a product called Higard and it's $60.00 for 4 litres.

http://www.hichem.com.au/htmlfiles/industrial%20timber/furniture%20lacquer.htm

Blimey! that's cheap! I'll have some of that! - now to find a retailer. I guess I'll contact them and see if they distribute in NSW - thanks for that!

They have a very good range - I wonder why you never see them in the shops?

Hmmm no email address.

EDIT: Ok, their distribution network in NSW is a bit nebulous but 2 I can report are:

Auto One 44-50 Parramatta Road Croydon 02 97442744 and,
McArthur Paints Watson Road Campbelltown. 02 46261499

Alas for me they are more than 100 km away so I won't be able to get any any time soon.

Edit: Rand Auto One - 400g spray can $14, 1lt can $33-95, 4lt can $89-95

so similar to Wattyl Stylwood in price - if I can get that in as a "special order" it will probably be my best shot. Thanks all but if anyone has any other thoughts I would be grateful to read them.

[garym]

I have just purchased a 4lt tin of STYLWOOD 70% and the thinners for it from the local PAINTRIGHT store, they do not have it on the shelf as it is not a generally sought after product.


Kev

Thanks for that, no doubt I should be able to get it in as a "special order" - pity that they only have it in 4L - at that price I wouldn't want to waste any.
http://www.attiwillsonline.com.au/182807.004/WATTYL-STYLWOOD-95%25-4L/pd.php

[Asquared]

Gary, Like you I spent a long time searching for lacquers and specifically Nitrocellulous (Nitro). Being a guitar maker, Nitro is the traditional and sought after finish. Here are a few things I learned along the way and some of this is already said above so I wont elaborate.

Theoretically you can use something other than a spray gun to apply bulk (i.e. not in rattle can) lacquer but I wouldn't go there.

Plain old nitro is almost impossible to find in Oz! Only place I found that sells it is Durobond in Sydney (http://www.durobond.com.au/lacquers.htm). They call it Guitar Lacquer and have some solid colours (black and white I think) and clear and sealers and thinners that all work together and unless you live there you pay for special road shipping interstate so it gets expensive - around $80 for 4 lit but I haven't bought any in a while.

I use Protec's Catalac mostly and if it is for furniture this is good. I use it because Protec have 2 outlets in Brisbane so it is easy to get. (I should add that they were threatening to discontinue it because they are more into automotive and industrial coatings.) It is a pre-catalysed lacquer meaning is contains a catalyst that sets it off and hardens it (like a 2-pack but is only a single pack). IT WILL NOT RE-FLOW WITH SUBSEQUENT COATS LIKE NITRO WILL so you need to get all your coats on while they are still curing to get good adhesion or you have to scuff sand.

Mirotone's MIROLAC is pretty much the same thing, a pre-catalysed lacquer. But they make it harder to buy if you're not a production house with big volumes so I haven't used it. I'm fairly sure I have seen it in rattle cans too but can't recall - where maybe a specialist paint shop like Paint Place in Milton Brisbane.

Only use the recommended thinners with any of these products. I made the mistake of using acrylic lacquer thinners with catalac and adhesion between layers was very poor and required removal and re-finish.

You can buy acrylic lacquer in rattle cans from some places including some automotive re-finish suppliers. The brand that I have found has a wide range of colours and types is ANCHOR (look here for example http://www.campbellswholesale.com.au/Anchorbond-Paint). Also SuperCheap sell Septone acrylic lacquers and fillers and primers in rattle cans. I'm not sure that acrylic lacquers will re-flow like nitro.

I usually grain fill wood with TimberMate or clear epoxy and seal with shellac before applying lacquer. I find that the Colourtone tints sold by StewMac (www.stewmac.com) work in any sort of lacquer or shellac to give you a transparent coloured finish.

My current mission is to find water-based lacquer (like this: http://www.targetcoatings.com/products/interior-top-coats/em6000-production-lacquer.html) here in Oz - I'll be posting separately about that.

Good luck

Andrew

[garym]

Gary, Like you I spent a long time searching for lacquers and specifically Nitrocellulous (Nitro)....

Andrew

Andrew - thanks so much for all that info it is very useful and very much appreciated. Good luck with the water based lacquer - if I stumble across it I'll be sure to inform you. Cheers.
Gary


BTW Anybody, I could swear I had seen some Deft products somewhere in Oz - was I dreaming?

[Arron]

"Lacquer" and "varnish" are pretty vague terms and their meaning changes over time, but the meaning which I think is most relevant now is that lacquer is a finish that hardens by solvent evaporation, rather then by chemical reaction. This has many implications for the user, too many to go through here but Wikipedia helps.

Most lacquers in the past were nitrocellulose. Pure NC lacquers are now pretty rare - mostly they have been replaced by their mutated offspring 'precat lacquers'. These are still NC, but sufficiently modified so that there is a minor chemical reaction (crosslinking) on drying. This makes them tougher and more stable - in fact they are very very tough.

You wont ever see NC or Precat lacquers for sale in Bunnings because they are not DIY level products. Bunnings et al (wisely) wont sell products that DIY users cant use or understand because they are more hassle then they are worth in terms of people bringing them back and complaining and unfairly giving the company a bad name. They will sell the lacquer thinners because they have many other uses besides just thinning lacquer (a task that the ones sold in Bunning don't actually do very well).

The main reason they are not DIY is because you cant brush lacquer. You can spray it, but there is a learning curve and (without instruction) I have found it takes about a year of infrequent use to be a good lacquer sprayer. By good, I mean able to lay down a mirror finish straight off the gun.

I think you also need a good compressor, filters and guns. Its hard to imagine you can really get a good setup for under $1000.

I should point out that there are brushing lacquers available in the US, not seen them here though. Also not sure if they are genuine NC, or just stolen the name.

The real market for Precat lacquers is small time furniture manufacturers. People that need the profit-enabling advantages of spray finish but aren't big enough to have the time and money to set up for 2k (2 pack polyurethane), which is very toxic and needs special equipment and modification to premesis.

Most lacquers are available through professional finish outlets. I use Wattyl Stylewood, which I buy from Wattyl Industrial outlets - of which there is one in Sydney at Lidcombe (or maybe its Regents Park). Interestingly, when I went to a retail Wattyl outlet in Parramatta they didn't seem to know what Stylwood was.

Buying lacquers like Stylwood can seem very expensive, especially when you realise how much disappears as overspray, but don't forget most buyers are business owners who have gone to the trouble of setting up trade accounts and are buying at 60% of the cost of retail, or even less. I think Wattyl Industrial almost never sells to retail customers at retail price.

The main thing I find about precat lacquers is that you also need to use an NC sealer. I often read advice to people to spray NC lacquer direct onto timber, and I shake my head with dismay because you are going to get nothing but a thick gluggy finish which looks like plastic and will be hard to sand and work with. A sealer basically sits below the surface and prepares the timber so that you can achieve a perfect finish with minimal coats of lacquer - so you get a thin hard dense finish, not like plasticy poly. Also, sealers are designed to be sanded, so they sand like a dream - with little effort and don't clog the sandpaper. Precat lacquers are designed to be tough and resist abrasion, so they are pigs to sand. You need to use both. Why cant people understand that ?

On the positive side, once you have gone down the learning curve, lacquers are a wonderful finish. The main thing I like about them is that when you are done you are done! Its not like WOP or shellac (which I pursued for many years before switching to lacquers) where you never seem to be quite finished (there is always something about the finish that can be improved). I can go from bare timber to mirror finish in 4 or 5 coats, which takes about 3 hours in elapsed time but really only about 15 minutes in spray time, and once the gun is hung up then you know you are done. I also like that the finish is just about bullet proof. And of course, the big advantage -> because lacquer dries almost as soon as it hits the timber, if you have tolerant neighbours you can spray outside. You cant do that with poly based products because they dry slowly and so attract every piece of dust or insect in the neighbourhood.

I'm not sure about them not yellowing though - I haven't found that to be true.

I hope that puts the product in perspective.
cheers
Arron

[Arron]

My current mission is to find water-based lacquer (like this: http://www.targetcoatings.com/products/interior-top-coats/em6000-production-lacquer.html) here in Oz - I'll be posting separately about that.

Good luck

Andrew

That's my mission too. Please, please keep us informed on progress. I promise to do likewise.
cheers
Arron

[garym]

Why didn't I try here in the first place - I knew of them!

http://www.globak.com.au/SPECIALTY-PRODUCTS/28/categorylist.aspx

Whilst the shipping makes it expensive I *think* I might be able to convince Home Hardware to get me some in as they have extended their range of MinWax products extensively in recent times (due to their connection with US giant Lowes).

This product is a mixture of Nitrocellulose and Coconut Alkyd, presumably the Alkyd helps with the brushing.

[Arron]

I cant help thinking that the main use of that product would be for repairs to jobs already lacquered - where its not worthwhile getting your spray gear out and dirty. I've tried doing that by brushing on Stylwood when I want to lay down a couple of quick base coats before spraying a final coat at a later time.

As it is its difficult to think of any advantage it would have over poly - in fact I reckon you probably couldnt tell it from poly in most cases.

[Claw Hama]

Water base poly is about the clearest thing I have seen up there with a thinner base lacquer but much cheaper and easier to apply. Not as hard a finish but again, what is it being used on?

[ubeaut]

Globak are a forum sponsor.
Click on their banner in the right hand column or the one below or the one at the top of the Finishing Forum and it will take you directly to their site.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/adserv/uploads/Gai6OO_GLOBAK.gif (http://www.globak.com.au/)

[garym]

Water base poly is about the clearest thing I have seen up there with a thinner base lacquer but much cheaper and easier to apply. Not as hard a finish but again, what is it being used on?

Oh you would use it anywhere you want a clear protective finish - poly and (other) varnishes can of course be used too. My reasons for wanting to give lacquer a go are:

a) I used poly over an antique style paint finish for protection and it ruined it by turning it yellow, lacquer is "supposed" not to do that.

b) In the US and to some extent the UK it is many woodworkers "go to" finish product and I wanted to explore why.

c) It is a much faster drying product and as I don't have a dust free environment that is a big plus.

d) I enjoy trying things I haven't tried before.

[garym]

Globak are a forum sponsor.
Click on their banner in the right hand column or the one below or the one at the top of the Finishing Forum and it will take you directly to their site.

http://www.woodworkforums.com/adserv/uploads/Gai6OO_GLOBAK.gif (http://www.globak.com.au/)

Do we get a discount? ;-)

[ubeaut]

White Shellac (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dewaxed.html) or Hard Shellac (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/hardshell.htm) won't change the colour of your timber any more than wetting it down with water and shouldn't change the colour of white paint when applied over it. It dries almost as fast as Nitro and precat lacquers and for hardness the Hard shellac (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/hardshell.htm) is tougher than polyurethane and right up there with nitro etc.

It can be brushed, sprayed or padded (as in French polishing). Similar to what's known as padding lacquer in the USA main difference is that the shellac powder is dissolved in thinners rather than Ethanol to make padding lacquer and may have the addition of a small amount of oil.

Hard shellac pictured on website is a very bad photo of one of our old bottles it and is a light honey colour rather than the dark look in the picture. It is also cut by up to 4 parts ethanol (Methylated Spirits) to 1 part Shellac making it closer to the colour of Sanding Sealer (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/sandseal.htm) pic.

Hope this is of a bit more help.

Cheers - Neil :U

[gyropilot]

I spray 99% of the time, with stains and NC lacquer.
My first choice is Pylon Chemicals for Fast stain (less than 5 seconds drying time) and their Hytech for lacqer. They can deliver, Oz company over Botany way...
If I can't get Hytech then Stylwood is nearly as good, slightly more expensive, but I heard they were looking at their pricing......
Pylons lacquer (thinners base - need the right thinners - I use Diggers) goes very well over water based paint (folkart) as well as acrylic....

Geoff

[Arron]

Geoff, which of their lacquers do you use and what do you pay for it ?
Also, have you used one of their sealers ?

I'm asking because I always like to keep up with products that are out there.

Cheers
Arron

[h_samtani]

Seems like most of the people on the forum are not aware of these guys.

I buy most of my lacquer (BC 514), sealer (BC 512) and stains from them and they have worked a treat for me.

I have tried mirotone also, however, i found BC coating to be better to work with.

Dont remember how much i pay, i have not bought for some time, but i think i was only paying about 8-10 dollars a litre when you buy the 20 litre drum, the four litre was slightly more expensive.

They have a range of both precat and acid cat lacquers and sealers, part from polyurethane products.

I normally spray the stain first to desired colour, give it about 3-4 coats of sealers, and then sand using sponges. Normal sandpapers, hand or machined sanded , do get clogged up pretty easily.

This normally followed by 4-5 coats of lacquer which comes out pretty nice, normally i dont need to sand between coats for the lacquer, but i have done it in the past when i was not happy with the finish.

I use hvlp and find that i need to thin it to about 50% for it to come out nice, but it means the spray action has to be very fast else the drips happen.

hope this helps.

Harender

[gyropilot]

That's good to know (I haven't heard of BC before - live and learn)

Aaron - I don't use their sealer, I just use Hytec satin over the stain... I usually wait about 10 secs for the stain to dry, then satin over it...... wait 20-30 minutes, sand/scuff depending on the required finish, and then put finishing coat(s) on. Works a treat for me...

Geoff

[garym]

White Shellac (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/dewaxed.html) or Hard Shellac (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/hardshell.htm) won't change the colour of your timber any more than wetting it down with water and shouldn't change the colour of white paint when applied over it. It dries almost as fast as Nitro and precat lacquers and for hardness the Hard shellac (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/hardshell.htm) is tougher than polyurethane and right up there with nitro etc.

It can be brushed, sprayed or padded (as in French polishing). Similar to what's known as padding lacquer in the USA main difference is that the shellac powder is dissolved in thinners rather than Ethanol to make padding lacquer and may have the addition of a small amount of oil.

Hard shellac pictured on website is a very bad photo of one of our old bottles it and is a light honey colour rather than the dark look in the picture. It is also cut by up to 4 parts ethanol (Methylated Spirits) to 1 part Shellac making it closer to the colour of Sanding Sealer (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/sandseal.htm) pic.

Hope this is of a bit more help.

Cheers - Neil :U

I have just noticed the posts from this one (above) on for some reason I stopped getting email notifications.

I stopped by just to confirm that Home Hardware, although having a fairly extensive range of MinWax products, are precluded by contract from taking "special orders" from the rest of the MinWax range (pretty dubious that isn't it?).

Neil, that hard shellac sounds perfect but at $41.25 for half a litre is a bit to pricey for my pocket UNLESS it is normal to cut it down? That is, you cut it down without it requiring twice the number of coats (for instance).

Interesting tip on cheap "metho" having up to 40% water - I didn't realise that.

Both Pylon Chemicals and BC Coatings sound great - what a pity they don't have a good distribution network.

[h_samtani]

Sorry should have Mentioned orders Over $150 they give free delivery
I am in Rosehill about 15 km from them not sure if they will offer that interstate but no harm in asking
Their Rep Peter is a nice guy and is happy to chat over The phone

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

[garym]

This is why I wanted to try lacquer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyVPkqrNph0&feature=youtube_gdata

[Arron]

I liked that. Very personable - that presenter.
We are a bit lacquer-deprived in this country. It seems this conversation has still not turned up any brushing lacquers, and the lack of a real good quality water based lacquer is a real hole in the market.

When I first wanted to try lacquer I just went and bought some aerosol cans of lacquer like that guy uses. They worked very well but cost meant not practical beyond the experimentation phase. I believe the Stylewood rattle cans are now $24 per can retail!

Cheers
Arron

[Drillit]

Bunnings do sell lacquer. It is in a pressure pack (in their locked areas) under the white knight
label - comes in satin or gloss. I regularly use it. It is an acrylic lacquer. Drillit.

[Arron]

Bunnings do sell lacquer. It is in a pressure pack (in their locked areas) under the white knight
label - comes in satin or gloss. I regularly use it. It is an acrylic lacquer. Drillit.

Got me excited there, but rang tech support at White Knight first, who said its not a lacquer but an acrylic enamel with spraying additives.

Depends on your definition of lacquer of course, but to me it lacks the essential qualities of having no or minimal chemical reaction on drying, and each coat full or partly melding with the coat below.

cheers
Arron

[garym]

Wow! Talk about the situation being reversed - I found the following video interesting, surprising, and enlightening:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn9o9vi4DEE

Comments on this definitely welcome.

Edit: Whoops - not as reversed as I thought - although he has an NA accent it appears he is located in Oz. Interesting channel tho'

[Arron]

I wondered why he was using a 50/50 mix as well as retarder - then I saw the name ''Barron River Guitars' so I guess thats what you have to do when spraying in the tropics.

Gary,next time you are in Sydney give me an email a day or two beforehand and I'll give you a quick handson intro to spraying lacquer - if you can make your way to Epping.

Cheers
Arron

[router]

I use NC Lacquer quite a bit.

I use the brand Pylon who are specialists in this type of finish.

You can also download the MSDS from their website which should be read prior to use the product.

You cannot mix polyurethane and lacquer or go over one or the other with a second coat as one is oil based and the other solvent based, makes a big mess.

you can also add pigments to lacquer if you want a different colour and they have at least gloss and satin.

Check out the Pylon website.

Good luck.


Router

[garym]

Why didn't I try here in the first place - I knew of them!

http://www.globak.com.au/SPECIALTY-PRODUCTS/28/categorylist.aspx

Whilst the shipping makes it expensive I *think* I might be able to convince Home Hardware to get me some in as they have extended their range of MinWax products extensively in recent times (due to their connection with US giant Lowes).

This product is a mixture of Nitrocellulose and Coconut Alkyd, presumably the Alkyd helps with the brushing.



They appear to have gone out of business.

[Ubernoob]

These guys may do smaller quantities or a spray can, haven't used any of their products, or any lacquer since high school I believe.

Lacquers 55 102 (http://phoenixlacquersandpaints.com.au/product_info.php?product_id=834&product_name=Lacquers%2055%20102)

[mark david]

The word "lacquer" is just a vague blanket term mainly used in the U.S and basically refers to pretty much any kind of oil,spirit based varnish or shellac.Pretty much anything that sets hard as a finish.

Chinese and Japanese cabinet makers would normally understand this to be a highly finished red or black coloured varnish made from the Asian lacquer tree
Toxicodendron vernicifluum

[Big Shed]

Sorry, have to disagree with your description of "lacquer".

First of all, it is in fairly common use throughout the English speaking world, including here in Australia.

It describes a finish that dries by solvent evaporation, not oxidisation (rules out most oil based finishes) or cross linking.

See here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquer

[mark david]

Sorry, have to disagree with your description of "lacquer".

First of all, it is in fairly common use throughout the English speaking world, including here in Australia.

It describes a finish that dries by solvent evaporation, not oxidisation (rules out most oil based finishes) or cross linking.

See here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquer

I think garym,who started the post might disagree as seemingly no one he has spoken too knows what "Lacquer" is although not surprised staff in Bunning's haven't a clue.
The wiki article clarifies things to a degree but in essence it is anything derived from the Lac beetle,which is basically shellac or french polish.
Most people using the term Lacquer generally have no idea of it's exact meaning of it as there is no actual product.
I have been a furniture restorer and cabinet maker for 25 years in England and latterly Australia and have very rarely heard the term used except by people who are not furniture makers.

[Big Shed]

I have been a furniture restorer and cabinet maker for 25 years in England and latterly Australia and have very rarely heard the term used except by people who are not furniture makers.

I have been a Paint Chemist for most of my working life, worked in Europe, UK, US and Australia.
So not only did I use lacquers, I actually formulated them and know intimately what makes a lacquer.

[mark david]

Good for you.but that is not what we are talking about.

[Big Shed]

Good for you.but that is not what we are talking about.


Excuse me?

The title of this thread is "lacquer", you gave an explanation of that term and subsequently backed it up with your qualifications, a furniture restorer of some 25 years experience.

I replied with my qualifications, I am not entitled to either express an explanation of the term lacquer, based on extensive experience in the paint industry, nor to back that up with my qualifications, as you did?

[Pittwater Pete]

Never heard of lacquer ? Interesting.
No nitrocellulose lacquers?
No acid catalysed lacquers ?
No lacquer thinners?
Hmmmmm! Interesting!
Pete

[mark david]

Never heard of lacquer ? Interesting.
No nitrocellulose lacquers?
No acid catalysed lacquers ?
No lacquer thinners?
Hmmmmm! Interesting!
Pete

Yes Pete have heard of all of these things but If I go to a paint shop shop and ask for a litre tin of lacquer what would be the reply ?
If I wanted to buy some jarrah from a timber merchant wouldn't just ask for some wood ?

[mark david]

Excuse me?

The title of this thread is "lacquer", you gave an explanation of that term and subsequently backed it up with your qualifications, a furniture restorer of some 25 years experience.

I replied with my qualifications, I am not entitled to either express an explanation of the term lacquer, based on extensive experience in the paint industry, nor to back that up with my qualifications, as you did?

Yes you are entitled but you didn't bother to do that you just stuck in a Wicki link.Which is utterly ambiguous anyway.

[Big Shed]

Sorry, have to disagree with your description of "lacquer".

First of all, it is in fairly common use throughout the English speaking world, including here in Australia.

It describes a finish that dries by solvent evaporation, not oxidisation (rules out most oil based finishes) or cross linking.

See here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lacquer


You obviously didn't read this before you quoted it:wink:

[rustynail]

Wattyl Trade Store Wollongong, ask for Stylwood Lacquer and tell them what gloss level you want.

[soundman]

One thing that can be taken away from this thread is....... don't expect to find anything specialised or high end at a hardware shop....... or for that matter at a suburban paint shop.

That goes right across the board ..... they are high volume RETAIL stores, don't expect anything obscure.

Also don't expect any sort of competent advice on anything at a major chain hardware ...... 9 out of 10 they just don't know.

As for stocking Laquer thinner and not Laquer ........ laquer thinner is a comodity and has multiple uses ........ you can buy dry cleaning fluid, but don't expect to get ya dry cleaning done there.

On the matter of the Definition of the word "laquer", in the retail market the word may have become ambiguous and missued as has the word "varnish"...... but in the trade and in the craft the meaning remains clear.

A couple of things for those who have not used laquer. in particular Nitro and acrillic laquer ...... the primary reason it is used is because it is fast ... realy fast.

I use GMH Flat black ( a cheap black nitro) as a general purpose black stuff ....... in warm weather I can slash an item black, hang the spray gun up, turn around and pick the item up dry. fast real fast.

A friend of mine claims that he has seen and worked on jobs where they expect to get at least 5 coats of nitro on a piano in one day, in winter, in Melbourne ..as long as the sun is shining.

It is also very common to thin laquer in high persentages .... 30% laquer and 70% thinner is not uncommon or unreasonable.

You can thin laquers this far because of what they are .... they cure predominantly by evaporation of the solvent ...... finishes that cure by reaction generally can not be thinned anywhere near that far without compromising the bonding process of the resins.

Pollyeurathane for example mostly starts to have problems around 10% solvent .... the bond strength is reduced and clarity suffers.

As for American texts and videos ..... you have to remember they have a much larger market ..... Also remember that some of the American media is intended for people further along than your average DIY person.

Just take paint in a spray tin ...... the average person in this country would have a hard time buying anything decent in a spray tin ...... its mostly low end "jam in a can". Ya cant even get a decent colour range unless you pay thru the nose for auto touch up paint.

In the US there are products like Krylon, which is a range of spray products way beyond anything most Australians would ever see ..... In the US, Krylon and similar quality products in a spray tin are common.

Yes you can get Krylon in AUS, but you wont find it in pretty much any hardware shop.

If you are anything but a retail mug, or want to move on from being a retail mug, you need to start asking questions and looking for more information than a single word to define a finish.

Do not Rely on the word "laquer" ..... is it, old school nitro, pre-catalised nitro, Acrillic or some other base.

Then be prepared for some unconventional concepts ....... there is what is considered normal(in whatever trade you work in) .... then there are some things that are real but not conventional like in the marine world, there is a real thing called "single pack polly eurathane enamel" ..... that makes no sense to someone from the house painting industry and many hard core car refinish people will just look at you like you are stupid ...... but it is a real thing.

Also be prepared for the utter BULL$#!^, that people behind trade counters will tell you ..... sometime you have to do some work to find out the truth.

Like that joker who said the the Aerosol laquer was " acrillic enamel" ..... If it is a clear it is either Acrillic, Nitro ( or some similar) or most unlikly an oil bassed clear like enamel paint would be bassed on. ..... I'd be interested in the truth of that one.

hope this helps
cheers

[Mobyturns]

You could try

Nitrocellulose clear Lacquer 400g aerosol spray can (http://www.sydneyguitarsetups.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=15171)
https://www.guitaraust.com.au/finishing/fender-gibson-colours/rothko-and-frost-nitro-lacquer-tinted-aerosols.html

I have never seen either and use Wattyl Stylwood myself.

[Evanism]

Wattyl Rediseal and4L and 20L of Wattyl Stylewood in various levels of gloss. Also available coloured.

All orderable from The Paint Place. They won't have it, but a couple of days and it's there. Ive done this 3 times with 4 and 20L cans. You also need the Magic Thinner (can't remember name) but you use hardly any and it's just for thinning a tad and cleanup)

For spaying, use guns, or Preval sprayers from StewMac, Autopro here in Aus or Amazon.

Tints, stains and non-aerosolised NC's are available from StewMac.

I've also spoken with a number of car body paint places about the problem of getting true Nitrocellulose finish. One that will blend into the previous coat and dry in minutes.... They find it baffling, but I will be honest in they have pointed me to look at several solutions they use in their industry. I'd wager the car refinishing biz is pretty sophisticated. They were like kids at Christmas showing off what can be done.

I know this, for as a test a month ago I used a basic black finish over their spray undercoat on MDF, finished in clear and then wet sanded (called rubbing out) and buffed and it shone like a million dollars. I did this as I couldn't do Japanese Laquering. I'm now finishing mdf boxes this way.

Australia is utterly impoverished in solutions for NC. I unhesitatingly purchase everything overseas.

Guitar refinishing is an incredible thing to study. These dudes absolutely push the envelope. I'm now using many of their techniques for finishing my work. It seems obvious, but visit a music shop and witness the glory of their work. It makes us woodworkers look like refinishing peasants.

[Mobyturns]

Australia is utterly impoverished in solutions for NC. I unhesitatingly purchase everything overseas.

Pre-catalysed nitrocellulose lacquer and traditional lacquers based upon hydrocarbon and other volatile thinners (VOC's) are being phased out across the world because of their high solvent ratio to solids, transfer efficiency and the concerns about air pollution and tough air quality regulations. That is why HVLP is the go these days, far more efficient spray systems.

[pictureman]

I have been using Automotive undercoat on MDF for years it seals the board and can be sanded, then sprayed with paint then sprayed with a semi gloss clear and it will dry quicker and a very nice finish.

[soundman]

I have been using Automotive undercoat on MDF for years it seals the board and can be sanded, then sprayed with paint then sprayed with a semi gloss clear and it will dry quicker and a very nice finish.

YEH man .... thinners bassed automotive undercoat is great on MDF ..... or pretty much any timber ...... same with automotive laquers.

BIG thing about automotive laquers ..... designed for 100% outdoor exposure.

cheers


cheers

[Evanism]

Soundman and pictureman say something interesting.

Over the last 3 months I've spent a lot of time reading and experimenting with finishes.

I've mentioned it in another thread, but it seems that many of the "old" finishes are dying. Regulations about VOCs are tightening (as Mobyturns says), so even small non-industrial users are being strangled.

Why I'm currently obsessed, is that I've tried to make great finishes without using toxic, stinky or hard to manage materials.

Part of my obsession has led me down the paths of how luthiers (guitars especially), gun makers (for gunstocks) and automotive finishes do their work. The way these items are finished are incredible. They are also VERY different from traditional woodworking finishes. They certainly are work intensive, but the end results are simply incredible.

It's remarkable that more people aren't talking about these finishes, especially automotive ones, as they are pretty amazing.

[pictureman]

Once you start using these types of finishes it adds an extra dimension of what you can achieve.

[soundman]

I think it is very important not to be blinkered.

I have been very fortunate because my interests and my work cross many disiplines .... this exposes me to a wide range of methods and materials.

I constantly encounter sections of the trades that are very insular and people that use a very narrow range of products and methods and have a very poor awareness of alternatives.

There are a lot of options out there is you look and think beyond what is generally being offered by the retail hardware stores.

cheers

[rustynail]

I have been using gun stock finishing methods on furniture for years. Never had a problem. Can't say the same for some of the new fangled crap.

[Evanism]

Just found out about Mirolac by Mirotone. They have sealers, undercoats and two kinds of finish in either clears (usual range of glosses) and an opaque lacquer than can be tinted to any colour using some form of colour matching service.

It comes natively in white.

A local biz I use here for timber and whatnot, Turner Building Supplies, carries it. I've emailed asking if I can get a sample pot and about colour options. I'll report ASAP. Convenient as I've two new kids chairs needing a spray tomorrow.

MIROLAC NC Nitrocellulose Lacquers - MIROTONE | MIROTONE (http://www.mirotone.com/products/wood-coatings/mirolac-nc-nitrocellulose-lacquers/)

[soundman]

Just found out about Mirolac by Mirotone. They have sealers, undercoats and two kinds of finish in either clears (usual range of glosses) and an opaque lacquer than can be tinted to any colour using some form of colour matching service.

It comes natively in white.

A local biz I use here for timber and whatnot, Turner Building Supplies, carries it. I've emailed asking if I can get a sample pot and about colour options. I'll report ASAP. Convenient as I've two new kids chairs needing a spray tomorrow.

MIROLAC NC Nitrocellulose Lacquers - MIROTONE | MIROTONE (http://www.mirotone.com/products/wood-coatings/mirolac-nc-nitrocellulose-lacquers/)

One of THE most popular Nitro laquers in Australia ...... ther is s stain product.. that can be used as a stain or to tint the laquer .... you can buy the stains in primaries or get them to brew tints. ..... don't be afraid to thin it.


cheers