corby's innocence

[Zed]

I am extremely distressed at todays verdict of guilty and a 20 yr sentance. I know I dont have any evidence and am only relying on media reports, however extreme doubt exists in my mind.

I'm only a little fish and i'm sure the indoneseans dont give a stuff about me (Or by the sound of things justice either) but I certainly wont be going to bali or any other indonesian controlled provence.

its pathetic - our pollies should pull thier fingers out and do something (rather than just pontificate) about helping her. no amount of goodwill (Eg $1 Billion in aid) can convincve me otherwise. its a travesty! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I'd love to have a friggin good rant about this but I dont want to appear racist or have this post deleted.

what do you guys think ? Can we help her somehow ?

[Jack E]

I don't know and unfortunately we never will. You probably can't trust the court system and definately can't trust the media.
The problem is that no matter who is caught with a bag full of drugs they are going to say they are innocent.
This doesn't help those that are and maybe she is.
I guess all Australia can do is a prisoner exchange, whether that means her case can than then be reviewed by our judicial system I don't know.

An unfortunate situation but definately a lesson for all travellers.

Jack.

[silentC]

It probably would have gone a different way here, in fact I don't doubt it. Unfortunately, in Indonesia you are held guilty and must prove your innocence. Most of the evidence in her defence was hearsay and it wasn't enough for them to let her off. In Australia, the burden of proof would be on the prosecution and they probably wouldn't have had enough evidence either.

We don't know if she was guilty or not. How can we? She might be the world's best actress for all we know. I wonder how worked up everyone would have gotten if she was a fat, balding 50 year old bloke from Paramatta.

Anyway, she can still appeal. I feel sorry for her, even if she did do it, because no-one deserves to be locked up in that hell hole.

[Gumby]

My sentiments exaclty Silent. I feel very sorry for her but have NFI whether she is innocent or guilty. Nobody except Corby herself and mayber one or two others know that. I can't stand Bob Brown carrying on just because he belives she is innocent. How does he know ? The government can't get more involved than they already are. We wouldn't appreciate Indonesian influence on our court system. Unfortunately there's only one solution to the Indonesian problem all round - don't bl**dy well go there ! (I'd much rather go back to NZ anyway !)

[craigb]

What Jack E, silentC and Gumby said.

[maglite]

One wonders wether the suggestions of some members of her team that the Indonesian system ,including the judges, was a hot bed of corruption and that most were open to bribery had any bearing on the final outcome?
Wether it be true or not, in hindsight it may well have been better if they had kept their mouths shut and maintained a low profile.

Oh and 1 query i have, the person/s that was backing her defence......what was in it for them?

[RufflyRustic]

Agree with all the above. Am not going over there though. I agree with Gumby, I'd rather go to NZ, but then I'm biased as I came from there anyway :)

Heard on the ABC Radio News this morning, that an entrepreneur has set up a luggage wrapping service - ~ $8 per item - wrapping in plastic - at one of the city's airports. Seems to be getting a lot of business too.

RR

[namtrak]

What craigb said.

[Slavo]

but I certainly wont be going to bali or any other indonesian controlled provence.
What about boycotting Qantas instead. If what she said is true then their systems are just as culpable. I don't see how boycotting a country will do anything. If she was guilty then the Indo judicial system did it's job, if she was innocent then they got it wrong and she has two more avenues of appeal. You would think there should be evidence against those who put her in that position. No judicial system is 100% foolproof - I've seen plenty of poor decisions in our own backyard to start pointing the bone.

[bitingmidge]

what do you guys think ? Can we help her somehow ?

Stop thinking.
No.

If it hadn't been for the lying, mind thieving press and its fabricated story we wouldn't even know enough about this to care.

The same media was responsible for manipulating the public to believe that Lindy Chamberlain was guilty, and that's what its been doing now.

Channel 9 bought the rights to broadcast live from the Tugun Surf Club for crying out loud.

Whatever the truth, they want us to think she is innocent, so that they can milk the story for longer.

Start thinking clearly people!!!

If she is indeed innocent, then the coincidence of an innocent traveller having a boogy board shaped stash appear in a boogy board bag enroute to Bali is a bit of an interesting one.

If it doesn't make sense for her to smuggle Dope IN to Bali, then it doesn't make sense for anyone else to do so either.

If she was set up by Balinese customs, one must ask why??? Thousands of Tourists pass through daily, why did one person get singled out for a major set-up??? It was too big for a few dollar bribe to fix anyway!

In the absence of any evidence of innocence, we have no right to ask any of these questions in a manner that will cast aspersions on the legal system of another country.

So there!!

P (Sympathetic perhaps, but sceptical about everything we've seen and read.)
:cool:

[martrix]

I have stuggled with my view's about this case the whole time it's been rammed in our face. Still I remain in limbo, to whether she is guilty or not. I do believe there are many hole's and un-answered questions in both the defence and prosecution's cases'. One thing that HAS re-affirmed my belief's, is that the Media are incredibly influential in dictating the general public in how to act and feel, hmmm........cast's my mind back to a few recent election's.............."What's that Johnny boy, income tax will go down with the introduction of the GST, yipee, that sound's GREAT!"...hmmm well as interest rate's will not rise under a liberal government!!....phht!.......oh and the defendant's translator is cute as pie! Excuse me for my strange post, I have a rampaging Virus

[martrix]

BitingMidge, If I were in the same room with you right now, I would shake your hand buy you a beer!!!!

[nic]

spot on bitingmidge

I've wondered why she hasn't put the blame back on Qantas, why isn't she suing them or the airport ? They were the ones who put the drugs in her bag what waht supervisor staff doing ?
Try and see this from the indonesian point of view, some oz chick comes up with 4.5Kg of drugs in her bag. Of course she will say it's not hers who wouldn't . Then some convicted durg dealer rocks up saying he heard some story about a transfer operation going bad !! Any judge would dismiss that immediately, even here it's hear say at best.

I'd say sue Qantas & the Airport for everything they have, if you are innocent, it's their fault you are in Jail.

What about the others in Indoniesia who are locked up for life, I find it disgracefull that she would get some special treatment.

nic

[bitingmidge]

Am not going over there though.

That's the second time I've heard that in half an hour, and I think it's pretty sad.

DON'T miss out on seeing part of the world because of one person's misadventure.

The country and it's people need our dough and it would be an even greater miscarriage of justice to blame them for one episode.

It's not that bad. Out of curiosity, is there anyone on this forum who's been to Bali AND had a bag searched on the way IN??

Cheers,

P

[Robert WA]

Australian criminal law, based on English law, requires proof of guilt to the standard "beyond reasonable doubt". It is an adversarial system with strict rules of evidence.

Indonesian criminal law, based on Dutch law, requires that facts be proven to a standard roughly equivalent to our "on the balance of probability". It is an inquisitorial system with much more liberal rules of evidence.

Corby may have been acquitted in Australia.

Does that mean that she didn't do it and that our system is better, or does it mean that a lot of guilty people are acquitted here who would have been convicted in Indonesia?

A lot of countries in Europe and elsewhere operate under the "inquisitorial" system adopted in Indonesia and apply the lesser standard of proof. Had Corby been tried in France or Holland, would you challenge the verdict?

[Groggy]

what do you guys think ? Can we help her somehow ?Zed, I sympathise with the sentiment, but as someone who has travelled there quite a few times (and got a fright when customs got excited over my supplement pills) I am not very surprised.

I (again) blame the media here. They have manipulated this in such a way that guilt or innocence is not a factor, nor is truth an issue. They have printed everything they can on an emotional level and very little of the facts. This is bad for Corby, bad for Indonesia and bad for our government.

The press claim the government is doing very little, but, the last thing the government will do is advertise any initiative they take because the press will ruin the opportunity before it can be used.

I can't begin to express how sickened I am by them, they feed off Corby's misery like dogs on live entrails.

[Studley 2436]

I don't think we know. I can't work out why anyone would want to take grass to Bali.I don't know why she didn't notice and try and tell someone that something had happened. If I noticed something like that I would look for a bin or corner or anything to dump it in.

I am really curious how you could get that much grass in your bag and get it out through the airport here. They screen everything to make sure bombs etc don't get on the plane. There seem like too many unanswered questions but I don't think there was enough presented to prove guilt.

Stevo

[bitingmidge]

Driving home this evening I passed two houses which had placards on their fences which were less than complimentary to Indonesia, protesting "Corby's Innocence".

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and suggest that in order to know that, they must be the ones that planted the stuff.

Either that or I'm living in the middle of a

FREAKING LYNCH MOB!!!

GET BACK TO WORK PEOPLE!!!!

P :(

[Ashore]

I don't think we know. I can't work out why anyone would want to take grass to Bali.I don't weather she's guilty or not and wont put my opinion as it means nothing, but as to taking grass to bali apperently the australian hydroponic stuff is in demand as its far better than the local stuff

On going to Bali/indonesia, I went to sea for a lot of years and went to indonesia several times and will never go anyware any place that is controlled by indonesian customs Their customs officers are the most corrupt I have ever come accross and I have been to most countries in the middle east /asia
I feel sorry for the people of bali as they rely so much on tourism , Its indoneasian customs that i feel is the problem,



Trust not and you won't be disapointed.

[ozwinner]

There was an article in the Melb Age yesterday.

It said that Oz marijuana is worth A$20,000 per Kg over there because it is of higher grade than the local Bali stuff.
Oz stuff is worth A$8,000 per Kg over here, nice little earner if you get away with it.

Al

[Zed]

i agree the media sucks, I also said I dont know the facts. none the less I am human and my heart goes out to her. the look on her face when the judgement went down spoke volumes - she didnt look like a fake out artist that got caught - genuine outrage and innocence was what I thought I saw.

an appeal in a corrupt judicial system is about as useful as a glass banana in a tree full of monkeys.

Midge - I am a little dissapointed in your <lack of> compassion... theres more to life than absolute truth. i admit I get on the horse and carry on around here but thats all in jest - corby will spend her life in jail, never have kids and when she gets out her family will be dead or so different she'll probably top herself.

[bitingmidge]

Midge - I am a little dissapointed in your <lack of> compassion... theres more to life than absolute truth. i admit I get on the horse and carry on around here but thats all in jest - corby will spend her life in jail, never have kids and when she gets out her family will be dead or so different she'll probably top herself.
See the last comment on my first post in this thread.

I am truly sympathetic, as indeed I was when Lindy Chamberlain was WRONGFULLY as it turned out, convicted. My position then was the same as now, I am not in possession of ANY of the facts, I can therefore not make any statement regarding guilt or innocence, but I can be sympathetic just in case.

Sympathetic does not mean getting up on a soap box and protesting the innocence of someone I don't know and don't know anything about.

Hope you think the same when the "nine" are convicted as well, and the guy that's currently waiting to be hanged in Singapore cops it, or is it just that they aren't so picturesque (or don't have a contract with Channel Nine)?

I would like you to expand a bit on the "more to life than absolute truth" phrase, 'cos all I see is "absolute bollocks" so I try not read or watch any of it.

Cheers,

P

[Redback]

I have heard a lot of mention that the Indonesian system is the like the French and Dutch system...

The 'law' as it is supposed to be executed may be similar, but I would guess thats about as far as it would go.

If she were tried in France or the Netherlands, then I would accept the verdict as it would probably be fair and the resulting sentnece would be fair. In any case, I would expect the investigation to be far superior.

However, this is a country that until relatively recently was a military dictatorship that is renowned for its corruption and has what on the face of it, unjust laws. To site for example, what did the mastermind and executors of the Bali bombings get?. Nothing like 20 years....so multiple lives are worth less than 4kg of a fairly harmless drug.

Now Corby may be innocent, or she may be guilty. I would like to think she is innocent, but I suspect she is guilty of stupidity. However, the (apparent) handling of evidence and conduct of the investigation leads much to be desired and more than anything, the punishment certainly does not fit the crime.

Thats just my 2 cents

RB

[Christopha]

See the last comment on my first post in this thread.

I am truly sympathetic, as indeed I was when Lindy Chamberlain was WRONGFULLY as it turned out, convicted. My position then was the same as now, I am not in possession of ANY of the facts, I can therefore not make any statement regarding guilt or innocence, but I can be sympathetic just in case.

Sympathetic does not mean getting up on a soap box and protesting the innocence of someone I don't know and don't know anything about.

Hope you think the same when the "nine" are convicted as well, and the guy that's currently waiting to be hanged in Singapore cops it, or is it just that they aren't so picturesque (or don't have a contract with Channel Nine)?

I would like you to expand a bit on the "more to life than absolute truth" phrase, 'cos all I see is "absolute bollocks" so I try not read or watch any of it.

Cheers,

P

WELL SAID MIDGESTER!

Just because the Indonesian justice system is different to the one we are used to does NOT make it a bad system. Having served on juries here in OZ I am of the opinion that if I were on trial for something I did'nt do then I would definitely want to be tried in front of a judge only.....BUT if I were being tried for something I did do then I would choose trial by jury because I know that juries of lay people are going to be swayed by emotion and let me go because I came from a broken home, had bad teeth or was bullied at school......

Scrappelle was found guilty by a panel of 4 judges.... let her rot because she had to know what the penalty was and I don't care that she would have only gotten a slap on the hand in Australia, she committed the crime in Indonesia and it is only right that she wear the consequences of her crime on their terms, in their gaol and for as long as they want her. I just hope that by the time she gets out that the media have decided to move on to some other headliner.....

[Zed]

do you really beleive what you said christopha ? my god thats harsh!

[knucklehead]

There is lots of opinions bouncing around about where she was guilty or not, this is not easily answered. BUT I would offer the following comparisons with the "Bali 9" case

Within 48 hours of the Bali 9 being caught there were further arrests in 2 other countries. Enough information was gathered to know that they have a history of traveling on fake passports, significant details of the distribution network and money flow etc was gained.

The Corby case in contrast has found nothing. This case has been investigated by Indonesian and Australian Federal police.

This young girl is either such a hardened criminal that she would rather face life in a Bali jail (early on it was a death sentence) than give up her supplier, or she in innocent.
Just my observations.......................

[Gumby]

- corby will spend her life in jail, never have kids and when she gets out her family will be dead or so different she'll probably top herself.

Zed, i think you are getting a bit carried away. She got 20 years, not life. They have a system over there wher remissions for good behaviour could cut that down considerably. let's not get too emotive on this, that's what the media do. let's stick to the facts.

[Daddles]

On channel nine tonight, she's the sweet innocent. Remember, this is the channel that has paid her parents a **** load of money for their story and which promised Shappelle herself something like 600K for her story. If she was found innocent, she'd be worth something in the order of 2.2 million dollars. But it's not media spin.

On channel seven tonight, you've got Australian lawyers saying she stood a good chance of being found guilty here in our courts ... though they put that at 50/50.
You should also remember that channel seven are in competition with channel nine who got the exclusive stories - media spin again.

And those of you who are convinced of her innocence might wonder why she tried to prevent the Indonesian customs officers from opening her bag - that is in the evidence.

I don't know if she's guilty or innocent, but I'm disgusted by the media feeding frenzy and the way people seem to think that media spin is gospel. The sad part is, our useless govt will now spend money to try to ease her sentence. For a guilty person, that's a disgrace (but good PR which is what little Johnny is all about).

Personally, I'm not convinced either way. To be guilty, she has to be remarkablty stupid, but that's not uncommon in human behaviour, criminal or otherwise. She may indeed be innocent but she couldn't prove that ... and it could be argued she wasn't proved guilty either, just likely to be guilty. If she is guilty, she can rot in an Indonesian jail because these creatures are the scum of modern society, just behind the rock spiders. If she isn't, this is a tragedy, both for her and her family.

But the real criminals in this are the media and their spin doctors. They've taken a horrible situation and made it worse. They've sucked in thousands of viewers in the name of profit. They've made it impossible to ever know whether we've witnessed justice or tragedy today. The media has failed us - in this case, they have proven themselves to be worse than the most cynical of lawyers.

Richard

[ozwinner]

Theres a friend of mine on drug charges.
Jury found her guilty.
When the judges gavel fell
Gave her 20 years in hell..

Going to make a jail break.
Oww how I wish I could fly

Al :D

[ozwinner]

, just behind the rock spiders.
Sooooo, whats wrong with spiders?? :confused:

Al :D

[Grunt]

No one would give a sheet if the person caught was an Asian Australian. It would barely get a mention. It's a complete media beatup because she's an attractivish white chick.

One reason for importing marijana into Bali is that other westerners feel much safer buying drugs from another westerner rather than a local who could be an informant or an under cover cop.

If someone came into Australia with a boogy board bag full of dope and they said it was put in their by some baggage handler we'd just laugh and hope they enjoyed their 10 or so years in jail.

I feel sorry for her in the same way I feel sorry for the Bali 9. Plainly stupid.

[ozwinner]

she's an attractivish white chick.

.
Russian too??

Al :D

[RufflyRustic]

I don't see how boycotting a country will do anything. If she was guilty then the Indo judicial system did it's job, if she was innocent then they got it wrong and she has two more avenues of appeal.


DON'T miss out on seeing part of the world because of one person's misadventure.

Slavo and BitingMidge,

Have been thinking while bowling tonight on this. You are both right. This case is only part of me not wanting to go to Bali. There is more than one reason.

Anyway, thanks guys for making me re-examine my viewpoint from a different angle.
cheers
RufflyRustic

[Grunt]

Ment to add go to Bali it's a great and cheap holiday.

[Rocker]

No one has mentioned the fact that one of her close relatives is currently in jail in Australia, and that her father was convicted of possessing marijuana years ago. That may not mean that she is guilty, but, in my opinion, it makes it far more likely than if she came from a respectable family who had not had any criminal convictions.

There does not seem to be any credible explanation of why anyone would plant the marijuana in her bag. If baggage handlers had conspired to insert it in her bag in Brisbane, why did they not extract it in Sydney? Were they so bungling that they forgot to collect $30,000 worth of pot out of her bag when it got there? And anyway there must surely be less hazardous ways of transporting pot from Brisbane to Sydney.

I cannot see how the Indonesian judges could have reached any other conclusion than that she was guilty on the evidence presented. We do not know whether the Australian police uncovered any evidence that she was involved in drugs. Perhaps, now the verdict is in, we may hear if they found any such association.

Rocker

[PlanePig]

I totally agree with Redback on the point that a local Indo that kills loads of people with a bomb in a night club only gets 20 months jail compared to 20 years for Corby :mad: :mad: [ allegedly ] importing pot .
Planepig

[Sir Stinkalot]

It would seem that the media has provided her with a platform for support in Australia, although many of the articles are of a gutter quality at least her story is know by most Australians.

Last night on TT (Seven) they ran some stupid piece on how the case was the talk of Bali, the only thing on locals minds, when they did a street vox pop half didn't know, a quater didn't care and the rest had seen her name in the paper. The reporter wasn't geting the feedback that he wanted for his story but just kept going along on his predetermined path.

Is she guilty? dont know. from what I have heard about the trial she didn't put up much of a case, just, oh its not mine. Without having anything more than that and with the stuff in her bag how could it ended up differently?

It seems odd that everybody is jumping up and down about this one girl, the stupid calls to boycott the country. What about all of the other Australians in a similar situation overseas who have no media exposure, no local support. Its simply one story that they have been arrested and another months later that they have been convicted, no 2x QC's for them.

Now what is the story about her financial backer, who has registered her name as a business .... what the?

[craigb]

It was so much easier in the old days. In 1977, I imported 55 kg's of dope into Bali and nobody laid a finger on me.

[boban]

Driving home this evening I passed two houses which had placards on their fences which were less than complimentary to Indonesia, protesting "Corby's Innocence".

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and suggest that in order to know that, they must be the ones that planted the stuff.

Either that or I'm living in the middle of a

FREAKING LYNCH MOB!!!

GET BACK TO WORK PEOPLE!!!!

P :(
It called Queensland isn't it?:D

BTW I agree with your earlier post.

Those that have sat through a trial, now how the system and see how the media reports it would also lean toward Midge's sentiments. I've come across some of the best liars in the business and I had no idea until the evidence comes out. People lie and you simply dont know..

I have some doubts about the whole saga but I dont believe that the result would have necessarily been different in Australia. Imagine her being caught in Sydney with the bag. Who would have believed that it wasn't hers? I dont know...

That said, she was found guilty, so isn't the death penalty appropriate, or is this just different.

[boban]

Theres a friend of mine on drug charges.
Jury found her guilty.
When the judges gavel fell
Gave her 20 years in hell..

Going to make a jail break.
Oww how I wish I could fly

Al :D

She said I aint spending my life here , I aint livin alone, aint eatin no rats or lice , I'm gunna make a jail break.

Now how did that song end..... a bullet in the back I think.

[Ashore]

Sooooo, whats wrong with spiders?? :confused:

Al :Dwell for a start ther'v e got 8 legs their diffrent from us so we must destroy them PS.. and their multi national
Reason enough



Trust me and you won't be disapointed.

[Gumby]

Now what is the story about her financial backer, who has registered her name as a business .... what the?

Downer said today that WE were paying her legal costs. I would have to ask WHY ???

[craigb]

I would have to ask WHY ???

And the services of 2 QC's I read.

[boban]

Downer said today that WE were paying her legal costs. I would have to ask WHY ???
If thats true, Im disgusted.

Exactly, why should we and were does it stop.... One rule for semi-decent looking white girl another for others.....

[womble]

yeah it does seem strange that all this 'attention' has been paid to her when there are dozens of other australians around the world rotting away in jails after being found guilty of drug smuggling...no mention of them...not pretty enough maybe...

[boban]

And the services of 2 QC's I read.
For those who dont know

1 QC = $5,000 - $10000 per day plus expenses.

How the hell do you get free representation like that in a criminal trial in Australia. Please tell me because I dont know. :mad:

[Gra]

Rocker said

There does not seem to be any credible explanation of why anyone would plant the marijuana in her bag. If baggage handlers had conspired to insert it in her bag in Brisbane, why did they not extract it in Sydney? Were they so bungling that they forgot to collect $30,000 worth of pot out of her bag when it got there? And anyway there must surely be less hazardous ways of transporting pot from Brisbane to Sydney.

It stated in the news, that the day that corby passed trough sydney, the federal police were there investergating some baggage hadlers.

Cant say weather she is guilty or not, but the recent arrests of a number of dealers that included some baggage handlers, and the fact the the airline strangely has lost the record of her weigh in when she checked the bag into Brisbane, also the fact that the bag was never fingerprinted gives me enough reasonable dought to question her guilt.

All I can say is if you are flying to anywhere except America. Lock you bags. (You cant lock you bags for flights into America, customs break them open). Also when customs ask you if this bag has been out of your sight the answer is yes, I havent seen it since I checked it in...

By the way Indoneasian customs arnt the most corrupt, it is the customs between russia and mongolia. The forced me to pay US100 in phony insurance when I crossed there (You dont agrue with a guy with an AK47, when he asks for money)

[maglite]

1 QC = $5,000 - $10000 per day plus expenses.

How the hell do you get free representation like that in a criminal trial in Australia. Please tell me because I dont know. :mad:

Perhaps you need a marketing team, a legal team, extreme public sympathy or $$$ from numerous media organisations, be photogenic etc etc etc
Pleeeeaseee, give me a break, the govt is offering taxpayers money for her appeal because there are so many bleeding hearts, social engineers and general do gooders who are under the spell of the diatribe that has been offered by the media and guess what......there might be...just might be VOTES in there somewhere.

[kiwigeo]

By the way Indoneasian customs arnt the most corrupt, it is the customs between russia and mongolia. The forced me to pay US100 in phony insurance when I crossed there (You dont agrue with a guy with an AK47, when he asks for money)

[/i]

No you dont argue with a guy with an AK47...but Id have offered him $200 if he threw in the AK47
:)

[kiwigeo]

There does not seem to be any credible explanation of why anyone would plant the marijuana in her bag. If baggage handlers had conspired to insert it in her bag in Brisbane, why did they not extract it in Sydney? Were they so bungling that they forgot to collect $30,000 worth of pot out of her bag when it got there? And anyway there must surely be less hazardous ways of transporting pot from Brisbane to Sydney.

Rocker

My understanding is there was a police investigation in progress at Sydney airport the day Corby's bags went through....would be a good reason for the pickup guys to cancel the pickup.

Havent really been paying enough attention to the details of Corby's case to make an informed judgment on the girls guilt but what I do know doesn't convince me that shes guilty.

[Rowan]

Guilty or innocent, not sure but here are some hard cold facts

Fins/flippers weight - about 1.7kg
Board weight - about 1.4kg
Board Bag weight - about 1.5kg with wax and rash vest in pocket
Full 4/3 wetsuit - about 1.2kg


totall weight of my stuff comes to 5.8kg.

I placed an extra 4kgs in the pocket and picked it up, very obvious weight difference!!!!!!

And thats for a fully packed bag. My understanding is that she didnt have a wetsuit in her bag so the extra weight would have been far more obvious!!!

Just out of curiosity what are the evidentiary based facts that her "undeniable" innocence is based upon, simply her say so??

[adrian]

The idea that she got caught up in a plot to smuggle grass between QLD and NSW by commercial airline was thin at best. You could almost guarantee that if you were to put 100kgs of the stuff in the boot of your car and drove to Sydney you would have almost no chance of getting caught. Why would someone bother to try and smuggle stuff in her boogie board bag and risk getting caught.
As far as their justice system is concerned, it's a very common system and I don't have a problem with it in principle. The only problem is that it can be corrupted far easier than a jury system.

[Gumby]

Guilty or innocent, not sure but here are some hard cold facts

Fins/flippers weight - about 1.7kg
Board weight - about 1.4kg
Board Bag weight - about 1.5kg with wax and rash vest in pocket
Full 4/3 wetsuit - about 1.2kg


totall weight of my stuff comes to 5.8kg.

I placed an extra 4kgs in the pocket and picked it up, very obvious weight difference!!!!!!

And thats for a fully packed bag. My understanding is that she didnt have a wetsuit in her bag so the extra weight would have been far more obvious!!!

Just out of curiosity what are the evidentiary based facts that her "undeniable" innocence is based upon, simply her say so??

And 4 KG of grass is about the size of a full pillow case !

[Jack E]

And 4 KG of grass is about the size of a full pillow case !

How do you know this gumby? :) :) :)

[Iain]

How do you know this gumby? :) :) :)
I wondered that too.
How many chooks will 4kg fit into?

[Coldamus]

Well, Corby's family didn't instill much confidence and her legal team and comments by her financial backer seemed to cause more harm than good but nevertheless there's enough doubt to be unsure about her guilt or innocence.

To h*ll with political correctness. Any system that presumes guilt rather than innocence is not fair or reasonable. We are talking about people's lives or virtual life imprisonment in a hell-hole. Would you like to be arrested here in Australia by, say, Roger Rogerson or Chris Laycock and presumed guilty of some life imprisonment offence.

That would be bad enough but we're talking about a country where corruption is known to be rife throughout the judicial and political system as well as police and other government agencies (remember Sukarno and Suharto and Suharto's son, Tommy - same again with their successors but I can't remember the names).

I presume you know about the Australian yacht owner who also was facing the death penalty for gun-running because he didn't properly declare a couple of rifles kept on board for protection against pirates. He was set free and so he should have been. He was clearly set up on a technicality. But then I gather he was well off financially.

I agree with Rocker that the connection in the Corby case with smuggling by Qantas baggage handlers is a dubious one. However the fact that Indonesian customs failed to carry out fingerprinting of the bag and refused to allow DNA testing of the marijuana (which might have confirmed its source) makes me wonder whether it may have been planted on her when she arrived. Just think back to the Bali bombing trials and the obvious bias expressed against Australians.

The money spent on an appeal will no doubt be wasted but I'm in agreement with the government doing what it can to bring her back here. I would never go to such a place and would support a boycott until they clean up their act. We are not squeeky clean here either but at least we have safeguards in place.

regards
Coldamus

[nic]

I've always wondered what would have finger printing the bag have acheived ?
Worst case her prints are on there she is guilty
They are not on the bag, so what ? she could have handled it with gloves.
Why is there so much hysteria about this ?

Has she given any reason why she wouldn't have carried drugs ?
Were there any character witnesses ?
Did she need the money that she would have made from the sale ?
Who were her friends coming to bali ? Were they all spotless ?

All her plea seems to be centered around it isn't mine, it was planted. I can see why the judges didn't care less, they must see 100's of similar claims.
And the only witness I heard of was a convicted criminal !!!

nic

[Gumby]

How do you know this gumby? :) :) :)

because if I put any more in, it gets all over the bed !!!!! :eek:

[Coldamus]

Right, all you lot that have ever smoked pot! Line up over here against the wall. We're going to save some money, alright! No need for a trial, you're all guilty. Boban and Maglite will oblige with the AK47s. Hmmm, if we can include the tobacco smokers, I'll help.

You kids standing around had better line up too. What do you mean you only ever sucked a cigarette lolly? Tough t*tties! How do we know it wasn't laced. What? You want to appeal? Bl**dy Wimps! No, its not on, too expensive.

Ok, ready, aim, .....

[Gumby]

Ok, ready, aim, .....


DUCK !!!!

[maglite]

What is it that makes Miss Corby so special in the eyes of the oz govt and the general population?
Why is Miss Corby afforded the use of taxpayer funded barristers, tho other Australians also imprisoned is other supposed corrupt and so called hell holes not afforded the same courtesy?

It would not be unreasonable to expect the same people that agree to fund Miss Cory's appeal, to also put their hand in the pocket and fund the legal costs of all australians currently incarcerated in other foriegn jails.
Nary a mention has been made of these other "unfortunate" souls.
Am i to believe that some sectors of the community value one australian more than another?

My AK47 is cocked, locked and ready to fire!!!:p

[ptc]

Thank you all for a good read.

[ozwinner]

How would you all feel if this kind gentleman pleaded, not guilty??
He would have to be guilty, just look at him!!

I think we have all been led down the fluffy white puppy trail with Corby.
She cant be guilty, white, blonde, female.

This dude on the other hand!!!! :eek:

http://www.rp-online.de/layout/fotos/180x143/HBEAAwZaO05.jpg (http://www.rp-online.de/public/zoompicture/nachrichten/wissenschaft/sonstiges/bild/32856)

Al :D

[boban]

We're going to save some money, alright! No need for a trial, you're all guilty. Boban and Maglite will oblige with the AK47s.

Ok, ready, aim, .....
Im not for the death penalty, I changed my thinking on that a long while ago. My comment on the death penalty was sarcastic. I started the Bali 9 thread a few weeks ago and you could see where I was going there.

What gets to me is the inequity in this situation. Thats all. She can appeal all she likes, if the evidence is there to help her get off then good luck to her.

Why should she receive over and above what any Australian in Australia would receive in legal representation (legal aid that is). Her family should pay, or any other person who wants to, not the taxpayer. If the lawyers want to do it on a pro bono basis, then I've got no problem with that either. The Govt should do what it normally does in these situations, plead for clemency.

Im sorry, but she nothing special in any way.

I'll pass on the AK47, give me a Mauser and 400m and I'll shoot a rabbit for you.

[Daddles]

Al, there is no way that bloke would wind up in Miss Corby's predicament - with all those weapons on his face, they wouldn't let him on the aeroplane :D

Cheers
Richard

[Christopha]

She did it, she has to wear it..... tough titties!!!

[Grunt]

http://www.users.on.net/~gril/wwfuploads/Steptoe Avatar.jpg
Would you convict this man? Looks guilty to me. Probably has tough titties too.

[ozwinner]

Ive got nipples as hard as bullets, as you well know Grunt....:eek:

How much for the little puppy??

Al :D

[Grunt]

Yes, I dream about your nipple every night.

I'm taking offers on the puppy. The bollies have been removed and he has a very long tongue and he knows how to use it.

Grunt

[Gingermick]

not afforded the same courtesy?

Yes they aren't jumping over themselves to offer the same service for the Bali nine.
Of course there isn't any question as to their guilt but as Indo probably doesn't have the same mandatory appeals process that I think US has for capital sentences (am I right?, thought I read it in a book about Garry Gilmore once) they are in a more urgent need.
Jeez they were stupid.
But of course the country wont stand for almost pretty Aussie chicks in Bali jails.
There wont be the same compassion shown for that Renae Lawrence girl.

[DanP]

I'm not even going to speak of guilt or innocence. That's not for me to say.

I'll speak of the system that found the guilt and the penalty.

1. The system.

It has been stated that the system is one of having to prove your innocence. This is wrong. The system is this. You are innocent until the prosecution provides evidence of your guilty actions. In this case it was Corby slapping the hand of the customs officer who tried to look in her bag. One guilty acts are committed, it is up to the defence to prove that she did not commit those acts. In this country if one person gives evidence contrary to another persons evidence, without evidence to support one side or the other, the magistrate or judge will usually lean towards the defence. In other countries, not just Bali, they will accept evidence from the police and the like at a higher "believeability" level than that given by joe citizen.

2. The penalty.

On face value, the penalty delivered to Corby is very harsh. However, I think that given the country she was tried in and the possible penalties she could have been given, the result was not bad. You have to consider that she was tried in a country that is rabidly anti drug and that she faced the death penalty. I believe that the prosecution are appealing the lightness of the sentence.

My 2 bits worth.

Dan

[baseball]

Thanks for a most interesting read!

All I want to say is "Dodgy 'Justice' system - Dodgy Verdict"

Dave

[DanP]

I don't think the system or the verdict were 'dodgy'. Different maybe but you can't compare our system to theirs.

[boban]

In other countries, not just Bali, they will accept evidence from the police and the like at a higher "believeability" level than that given by joe citizen.

Dan
One of those countries would be Australia.

When was the last time a Magistrate preferred the Defendant's version of events to yours Dan?

You might notice it as much but Defendant's certainly do, but you would say that they were guilty anyway:D.

The same can be said for juries, just look at what Oz posted. One look and he's guilty to most. What did he do again Oz?

[amgsir]

Boban,

I have hunted with both an AK47 and a Mauser, and whilst the mauser is more effective the AK47 was way cooler. Oh yes, and all we got on that trip was rabbit and canadian geese by I was glad of the AK47 because the size of them were huge, sure they were rabid. ;)

[ozwinner]

What did he do again Oz?His only crime was the poor chap tripped over, and went head first into a bucket of nails.

Al :(

[boban]

Boban,

I have hunted with both an AK47 and a Mauser, and whilst the mauser is more effective the AK47 was way cooler. Oh yes, and all we got on that trip was rabbit and canadian geese by I was glad of the AK47 because the size of them were huge, sure they were rabid. ;)
Closest I got to an AK47 was a chinese SKK assault rifle. Lots of inaccurate rounds of fun.

[boban]

His only crime was the poor chap tripped over, and went head first into a bucket of nails.

Al :(
Not true, the baggage handlers threw the nails at his head....

nails are a lot cheaper in the US....

[Daddles]

Al, we know the avatar photo isn't really you, but did you have to share a REAL picture with us? :eek:

Richard

[RETIRED]

Ok Fellers keep it on topic. This is about Schapelle Corby and not her family or others.

[ozwinner]

What did he do again Oz?
I got it!!!
His nail gun went off by accident!!!!

Al :D

[Daddles]

I got it!!!
His nail gun went off by accident!!!!

Al :D

But only cause he'd been smoking the merchandise

Richard

are supposed to be ignoring that character or what :confused:

[Grunt]

Ok Fellers keep it on topic. This is about Schapelle Corby and not her family or others.
You blokes don't listen to do you?

Al, who else have you nailed?

[RETIRED]

Remember Boys I have the FORCE with me. :D

[DanP]

You're on your own. :p

[Ashore]

Now no more nail talk or may be flooring us all by finishing this thread with a clout, we must stay on the common wire of the thread or we will get the boat
(sorry) not to mention the bullet. Brad might get away with it but we wont.
Sorry couldn't compressor this any more if I was to mention Nail gun




I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

[Caliban]

Al
Lucky you cropped the top of his forehead off or we'd be able to see his circumcision scar.

[nic]

Y
There wont be the same compassion shown for that Renae Lawrence girl.

Is she a girl ???

nic :D

[adrian]

To h*ll with political correctness. Any system that presumes guilt rather than innocence is not fair or reasonable. We are talking about people's lives or virtual life imprisonment in a hell-hole. Would you like to be arrested here in Australia by, say, Roger Rogerson or Chris Laycock and presumed guilty of some life imprisonment offence.


I hate to break the news to you but every justice system in the world presumes guilt before innocence. If a system presumed innocence no-one would ever be arrested.
You are arrested because a policeman believes you are guilty. You are placed in a cell without bail because a judge presumes that you are guilty and are a danger to society. Then you have to spend your life savings to try and convince people you are not guilty.
If you are found not guilty, try and get your money back after convincing everybody that you were innocent in the first place.
Justice is something that naive people believe in. All you can hope for is that you can get through life without having to test the "justice" system.

Corby was tried in a system that allows more evidence into court than ours ever would. In Australia if you have enough money you can fight for years to have evidence surpressed in many types of cases. In Indonesia they don't automatically assume that a piece of evidence will corrupt a case before they even hear it. The judges are more likely to hear the evidence and then make a judgement as to it's relevance in the context of the case.

[Rowan]

I
Justice is something that naive people believe in. All you can hope for is that you can get through life without having to test the "justice" system.


Have to agree there adrian. Having been to court once as a witness for the prosecution and having come out feeling that I was on trial I am convinced that justice is only a worrd Our legal systems are designed to generate income for legal teams not find the truth!!!

[nic]

Has anyone seen this:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15387217%255E2702,00.html

nic

[Cliff Rogers]

Don't expect to get 'justice' in a court of law, all you get in a court of law is 'law'. :cool:

[Stylesy]

Some excellent points raised. Coming from a law enforcement background also, even our own judicial system places the onus of proof on the accused in certain circumstances. Unlawful possession for instance requires the accused to prove their innocence, not for the prosecution to prove guilt. Similarly, possession of a drug over here means exactly that - possession - not how you got it, who owns it, what you do with it, etc.

Funny though - nobody's raised the issue that maybe our own judicial system is really weak in regards to the penalties that are dished out over here. People say that 20 years is harsh, and that if convicted in Oz 10 years would have been the max, etc - but who is to say which is the "correct" jail term? Maybe we're too lenient, and have grown to accept that leniency from our own system?

[dazzler]

I hate to break the news to you but every justice system in the world presumes guilt before innocence. If a system presumed innocence no-one would ever be arrested.
You are arrested because a policeman believes you are guilty. You are placed in a cell without bail because a judge presumes that you are guilty and are a danger to society. Then you have to spend your life savings to try and convince people you are not guilty.
If you are found not guilty, try and get your money back after convincing everybody that you were innocent in the first place.
Justice is something that naive people believe in. All you can hope for is that you can get through life without having to test the "justice" system.

Hi Adrian

You can be arrested if a police member "believes on reasonable grounds" that you have committed an offence. He must be able to substantiate that before;
1) A watchouse sergeant
2) Police prosecutor

The "reasonable grounds" is tested by what a normal prudent person (average joe) would say was reasonable.

If he cant show the reasonable grounds then the person must be released immediately.
As for bail, the vast majority of people who are charged with an offence are summonsed and of those arrested most are bailed on there own recognisance and am even less amount are bailed with a surity.
The very very few that are refused bail are normally those who may continue to commit the offence, may seek to destroy evidence or endanger witnesses or those in some jurisdictions that have been charged with a domestic violence or restraint order.
Even then they must be brought before a magistrate as soon as practicable where they are provided with a legal practitioner.

And finally if you do get charged, go to court and are found not guilty and it is a matter of unlawful arrest or incorrect application of the law then you can ask for costs which the magistrate should award if the above conditions apply.

I reckon thats a pretty good system, wouldnt you agree?

Unless of course the matter is a domestic violence matter and then whichever party appears to have done the hitting is arrested and bail refused.

cheers

dazzler

[DanP]

What dazzler said.

Except the domestic violence bit. We bail them in the first instance (with intervention order conditions). If they breach, we lock 'em up. We only remand if they are an unacceptable risk.

Dan

[adrian]

My post wasn't meant to query bail conditions or anything like that it was just a response to the erroneous statement that we are presumed innocent until proven guilty.
If you are arrested then there is naturally a presumption of guilt otherwise you wouldn't have been arrested in the first place. If you are held without bail then there is also a presumption of guilt without you ever getting a chance to argue guilt or innocence. Even if you are bailed the court will set a hearing date so they are indicating that they presume you are guilty, otherwise they would let you go.
I think the "presumed innocent until proven guilty" line is just a way of keeping the huddled, unwashed masses in line.

[boban]

Have to agree there adrian. Having been to court once as a witness for the prosecution and having come out feeling that I was on trial I am convinced that justice is only a word. Our legal systems are designed to generate income for legal teams not find the truth!!!
You shouldn't take the cross examination personally. You would expect a vigorous defence from your lawyers (if you were charged) and they operate on their instructions. If a defendant tells his lawyer that the witness is lying or has got it wrong, what would you have the lawyer do? Your evidence must be tested.

The generation of income is a consequence of the system not the design. Most lawyers recommend alternative methods of resolution. Very often, the parties are a so stubborn that they will fight it out with the inevitable financial consequences, notwithstanding advice.

Finding the truth is the aim but it is not always possible. We have a reasonably good system with plenty of room for improvement....

[DanP]

My post wasn't meant to query bail conditions or anything like that it was just a response to the erroneous statement that we are presumed innocent until proven guilty.
If you are arrested then there is naturally a presumption of guilt otherwise you wouldn't have been arrested in the first place. If you are held without bail then there is also a presumption of guilt without you ever getting a chance to argue guilt or innocence. Even if you are bailed the court will set a hearing date so they are indicating that they presume you are guilty, otherwise they would let you go.
I think the "presumed innocent until proven guilty" line is just a way of keeping the huddled, unwashed masses in line.


There's obviously no point telling you you're wrong. I'm not going to waste my breath. What would I know anyway. :rolleyes:

Dan

[silentC]

I think the "presumed innocent until proven guilty" line is just a way of keeping the huddled, unwashed masses in line.
It was always my belief that what is meant by this is that the burden of proof in a court of law is on the prosecution. In other words, if there is a lack of evidence, you will be set free. No more, no less.

[adrian]

There's obviously no point telling you you're wrong. I'm not going to waste my breath. What would I know anyway. :rolleyes:
Dan
Dan.
You seem to be taking my comments personally. I'm not saying that the police or the courts do a bad job. On the contrary. And I know enough police to have the utmost respect for what they do. I'm one of those people who would like to see the police force doubled.
All I'm saying is that the presumption of innocence is a myth. People don't go to court because everyone thinks they are innocent.
In fact the whole process from arrest to conviction/acquital is brought about because there was an presumption of guilt on the part of police, Crown/DPP and courts. Even the jury know that they are there because a person is accused of a crime. Not because they haven't committed one. I know that my arguement boils down to semantics but when you look at the process it is heavily weighted in favour of guilt. That's why QC's are paid so much. It's their job to get someone off.