This conversation REALLY happened - no enhancement required

[doug3030]

Today, I set out to buy some brass tubing to make some ferrules for a number of items. I was really hoping that I could have sourced some and picked it up today so that I could get started on the project. I started on the phone around 09:00 am.

Well it soon became obvious that brass merchants aren't targeting the weekend warrior as not one of them answered their phone. Looking further afield I found a website for a hobby organisation which looked like it might have what I was looking for. They had various sizes of brass tubing listed on their website so I picked up the phone and gave them a try.

I dialed the number.

Them: hello (nice professional answer for a business)

Me: Is this (business)?

Them: Yes

Me: Great, It seems its hard to find someone open on a Saturday who has what I am looking for.

Them: We are open every Saturday.

Me: Fantastic. I am after some brass tube with an inside diameter of around 1/2". Can you help me?

Them: Brass tubing doesn't have an inside diameter. Its only got an outside diameter. You wont find anyone selling brass tubing with an inside diameter.

Me: OK, it doesn't have to be exact, Do you have any brass tubing that has an inside diameter close to 1/2"? A millimeter or so wont make a great deal of difference. What is the closest you have?

Them: I told you - brass tube doesn't have an inside diameter. It only has an outside diameter.

Me: OK (being as patient as I can) So after half an inch, what's your next size up?

Them: We have 5/8"

Me: (ok we might finally be getting somewhere here) Ok that might be alright. Can you tell me how thick the walls of the tube are?

Them: 0.9mm

Me: (now sarcasm has set in - this guy knows the OD and the wall thickness but because they are in different units of measure he cant be bothered calculating the ID) OK so the OD is measured in inches and the wall thickness is measured in millimeters. I suppose I can excuse you for not knowing the ID as its probably expressed in cubits then?

Them: Don't you get it yet. I keep telling you It doesn't have an internal diameter.

Me: (having calculated the ID while talking to this fool and its less than 0.2mm off what I was looking for) OK how much does the 5/8" brass tube cost?

Them: Its $.... for 500mm. Are you sure its what you want? It doesn't have an internal diameter.

Me: (trying to keep the peace) Its alright, everything else about it is perfect. I can make do without an internal diameter. I just want to get something today so I can get the project started this weekend. I can be there in 30 minutes and I want two lengths. There may be other things that you stock that I might be looking for for other projects. See you soon.

Them: Hang on, I cant help you till Monday.

Me: Dont you have them in stock:

Them: Yeah, I have heaps of them but I was on the way out the door when you rang.

Me: Ok but didn't you say you work every Saturday?

Them: Yeah, when I am here.

Me: Ok can I just check again, the brass tubing, It has a hole down the middle, doesnt it?

Them: Yeah

Me: but it doesn't have an inside diameter, right?

Them: Look, no brass tube has an inside diameter, I keep telling you that.

Me: well in that case i don't think you can help me. I am pleased I made the call before I drove over to your shop. I will continue to look around and hopefully I can find someone who has brass tube with an inside diameter. Thanks for your help.

Them: Nobody has brass tube with an inside diameter.

Me: Have a nice day (hangs up)

I just felt I had to share this.

Cheers

Doug :oo:

[issatree]

Hi Doug,
You wood have thought he could have used a set of Calipers on it there & then, but seeing he was on the way out, maybe he could be excused.
Then again, your phone call could not lasted all that long, & to be walking out the door at say 9.20am. seems to be a bit early.
Here in Geelong, Vic. we have a Business called " Toy Kingdom " Shannon Ave. Geelong West, & they I'm sure, wood have all those Brass Sizes. Not sure of the internal Sizes Ha Ha. They are reasonably cheap to.

[Master Splinter]

Print this out and send it to him...

288321

[derekcohen]

If you are OK with 1/2" long brass ferrules that are tapered on the outside (buy straight on the inside) - I think that they are very attractive - look in the plumbing section of Bunnings. I have no idea what they are used for, but I use them (and a smaller version) for chisels.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[jimbur]

i hope you could laugh Doug. That is not good for your mental health otherwise.:C

[artme]

I think everyone has had a similar conversation to that!!!

You never know whether to laugh or cry!!!:no:

[rwbuild]

Like they say, you can't put brains in statues

[BobL]

Doug,
Unfortunately not an uncommon experience - more likely to happen at the big hardware stores so I am surprised to see it happen at a smaller store.


If you are OK with 1/2" long brass ferrules that are tapered on the outside (buy straight on the inside) - I think that they are very attractive - look in the plumbing section of Bunnings. I have no idea what they are used for, but I use them (and a smaller version) for chisels.

:2tsup:

Derek, They are called "Olives" and are used in specially designed plumbing junctions that crimp them down onto copper pipes to make a water tight seal between the pipe and the junction . Bunnings has Olives in 20 and 15 mm inside diameters, Usually in packs of 5?. Larger ones , eg 25 mm ,are available but you will probably need to go to a specialty plumbing store. Copper ones are also available.

If you want chunkier brass tubing then many brass plumbing fittings themselves can be used. I inherited a large box of plumbing fittings from my FIL and have cut off and used many bits as ferrules. The outer hex surface can easily be removed even using a WW lathe although a MW lathe is a bit easier. The inner surfaces are usually threaded and this can be left on or removed. Using a small square file and filing a series of 4 or 6 notches across the threads can make a die which being a coarse BSP thread can be used to put a thread on most wood. When Epoxy type glues are used the large surface area of a thread generates an excellent holding capacity. If you are going to make many of these then making the die out of a galvanized fitting will last longer, or you can fork out an arm and a leg for BSP dies.

[Sawdust Maker]

my local steel merchant sells brass tubing

That story is right up there with anything Monty Python ever did!

[Scott]

Does that mean everything with a hole in it doesn't have an inside diameter? I'm not going to continue with this post because I don't want to be banned! :D

[doug3030]

i hope you could laugh Doug. That is not good for your mental health otherwise.:C

I think I hurt myself trying NOT to laugh until I got off the phone. As soon as I hung up that was it! :D

CHeers

Doug

[AlexS]

See, here's your mistake. If you wanted inside diameters, you should have asked for pipe. Pipe has inside diameters, tube has outside diameters. Check in the catalogues.

[rsser]

Geez, gotta wonder how he stays in business.

BTW, for anyone who prefers wood working to chasing metal bits, this guy has a good range of brass ferrules at a reasonable price: Specialising in fine hand tools and wood working books - The Wood Works Book & Tool Co. (http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/)

Making my own turning tool handles I buy a bunch at a time and there'll be one sitting there when I need it.

[DSEL74]

I thought ok this guy means tube is sold by the OD, not by the ID….But I slowly lost hope in this fella after many prompts by Doug. You would have probably got to the store and the guy would hand you a piece of wood dowel, what do you mean it isn't brass tube!:doh::doh:

[doug3030]

I thought ok this guy means tube is sold by the OD, not by the ID…


Thats what I thought at first too, but I soon realized that was not the case. :oo: :oo:

Cheers

Doug

[A Duke]

:roflmao::rofl:
I would love to hear his story of the customer who couldn't get the message that brass tube doesn't have an inside diameter.
Regards

[rustynail]

Tube is tube and pipe is pipe. Never the two shall meet. :no:

[Handyjack]

Tube is tube and pipe is pipe. Never the two shall meet. :no:

...and the difference is? :?

[Bedford]

...and the difference is? :?.


Difference between Pipes and Tubes (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pipes-tubes-d_347.html)

[tea lady]

See, here's your mistake. If you wanted inside diameters, you should have asked for pipe. Pipe has inside diameters, tube has outside diameters. Check in the catalogues.He prolly doesn't have pipe then. :P

[corbs]

You weren't speaking to this guy were you? :rolleyes:

<iframe src="//www.youtube.com/embed/kAG39jKi0lI" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="560"></iframe>

[Sawdust Maker]

I was thinking of ...

Dead parrots


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218

[doug3030]

Well when I was going through the experience I was thinking more about the "cheese shop" sketch The Cheese Shop sketch, Monty Python - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJhq9eq_eJg)

No matter what I asked for or how I asked for it, the answer was "NO" so if you want to equate what I was going through back to Monty Python, it was the Cheese shop that I thought of at the time.

Cheers

Doug

[FenceFurniture]

Or the Bookshop sketch.

So, based upon Bedford's link, pipe doesn't have an OD, even though it's circular?

Doug, I think you should ring him back and ask him if he has any Brass Pipe, or Brass Pipe Substitute. Please record the conversation for our vast entertainment at the backsaw class. :D

[doug3030]

Doug, I think you should ring him back and ask him if he has any Brass Pipe, or Brass Pipe Substitute. Please record the conversation for our vast entertainment at the backsaw class. :D

I really dont think I will be phoning him back at all. As I said, I only got down to the bottom of the barrel because I really wanted to get something this weekend and all the big suppliers dont seem to work on Saturdays. I do a 4 day week at work (full time hours) and have every friday off, so I am sure I will find something next Friday without having to relive the traumatic experience of having to keep a straight face until I got off the phone. I think that scarred me for life.

Cheers

Doug

[jimbur]

You've got troubles Doug. You'll get flashbacks at awkward times and find yourself laughing out loud inappropriately.:D

[FenceFurniture]

You've got troubles Doug. You'll get flashbacks at awkward times and find yourself laughing out loud inappropriately.:DNo matter how firm the camembert is.

[bsrlee]

I've either had this sort of conversation or been in the background when someone else has been having one.

Very frustrating, and yes, they will refuse to either look at their catalog (and no, they won't give you a copy) or measure the product - it seems that you have to know what they have and what its actual size is - I think they only give out the catalog/size chart to special customers who order by the truck load.

Lots of circular argument and misleading statements - like 'No, we can't get 30mm pipe/tube, they don't make it' - what they don't/won't say is that they have a shed full of 30.21mm nominal which is exactly what you want - seems like this is one of those old guild secret things, designed to make sure that outsiders can never figure out how to make anything.

And yes, the only punishment that seems to work is to buy from someone else, probably in China over the Internet.

[doug3030]

And yes, the only punishment that seems to work is to buy from someone else, probably in China over the Internet.

I wont be getting it from "Mr Cheese Shop" but that is more an exercise in preserving my own sanity rather than any feeling of wielding the power of punishment over such a small sale. But who knows what I may have bought there in the future, and how many referrals I may have sent his way if he had been helpful.
Cheers

Doug

[Sturdee]

Lots of circular argument and misleading statements - like 'No, we can't get 30mm pipe/tube, they don't make it' - what they don't/won't say is that they have a shed full of 30.21mm nominal which is exactly what you want - seems like this is one of those old guild secret things, designed to make sure that outsiders can never figure out how to make anything.



All the little hardware stores in our area were like that back in the 80's and that's why Bunnings became so successful. You could go in and look for yourself and measure to see if it fitted. No secret handshake needed to get advice or service.

Peter.

[burraboy]

Geez, gotta wonder how he stays in business.

BTW, for anyone who prefers wood working to chasing metal bits, this guy has a good range of brass ferrules at a reasonable price: Specialising in fine hand tools and wood working books - The Wood Works Book & Tool Co. (http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/)

Making my own turning tool handles I buy a bunch at a time and there'll be one sitting there when I need it.

What are they listed as in the catalogue? My humble efforts have failed to find them therein.

[DJ’s Timber]

What are they listed as in the catalogue? My humble efforts have failed to find them therein.

http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=37&category_id=15&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=91&manufacturer_id=

[rustynail]

...and the difference is? :?
Tube is listed by OD, pipe is listed by ID.
I dont blame the bloke in the shop getting a bit short. First he is asked for tube with an ID in imperial (half inch) with any variance in metric (a mil either way). He tries to explain the difference between pipe and tube to no avail and then gets ridiculed for being less than charming.

[doug3030]

I dont blame the bloke in the shop getting a bit short. First he is asked for tube with an ID in imperial (half inch) with any variance in metric (a mil either way).

Well thats your opinion, but -

The online catalog gave all the dimensions in imperial as OD's. That was therefore the logical starting point. I suppose that I could have said a smidgen either way rather than a millimetre, but then millimetres are part of our country's official measuring system where as smidgens AND, for that matter, inches are not.



He tries to explain the difference between pipe and tube to no avail

He made no such attempt. Neither of us uttered the word pipe. The point was that the catalog only mentioned the outside diameter. Tube may be sold by the OD but it actually HAS an ID, which can be calculated if you know the OD and the wall thickness, which he knew and I did not and had no other way of finding out other than asking him. THe point was that regardless of the dimension that the product is sold by, in this case it was wanted by a customer who was more concerned with another dimension which was easily calculated from info he had readily available.


and then gets ridiculed for being less than charming.

Now remembering that I discovered part-way through the conversation that he was on his way out of the door when I rang (on a day he claimed to always be open on) I think he just wanted to get me off the phone and get on his way once he found out it was only a small order. He then chose an untenable position to take to try to make out that he had nothing suitable so that I would go away. He should have just said he was out of stock and I would have thought nothing more of it. Instead he continued to maintain that a tube doesn't have an inside diameter if it is not written on the packaging.

Whichever way you look at it both tubes and pipes have both ID's and OD's, regardless of what measurement is used to identify them under the standards, and if a customer wants a product surely the business can make just a little effort to help out if they already have the necessary information - if they really want the sale.

Cheers

Doug

[burraboy]

http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=37&category_id=15&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=91&manufacturer_id=

Ah.. I was searching for ferrules in the plural rather than the singular!

[DSEL74]

I'm thinking these would be easy but not cost effective.
George White | Australia's leading stockist & distributor of non-ferrous metals - Product List (http://www.georgewhite.com.au/products/product_listing.asp?categorycode=BUSHES-I)

I guess they are specified by bore size x OD x length. Although it could be bore x length first, but I think the first scenario is more likely.

George White | Australia's leading stockist & distributor of non-ferrous metals - Product List (http://www.georgewhite.com.au/products/product_listing.asp?categorycode=BT-R)


<tbody style="margin- margin-right: margin-bottom: margin- padding- padding-right: padding-bottom: padding- ">
Outside Diametre

Wall Thickness

Kg/Metre


</tbody>

<tbody style="margin- margin-right: margin-bottom: margin- padding- padding-right: padding-bottom: padding- ">
12.700 mm

0.710 mm

0.230 kg/m



12.700 mm

0.910 mm

0.282 kg/m



12.700 mm

1.220 mm

0.375 kg/m



12.700 mm

1.630 mm

0.482 kg/m



12.700 mm

2.030 mm

0.581 kg/m


</tbody>



George White are usually the most expensive cats in town, and can sometimes be difficult to deal with but usually have whatever your after. If nothing else they are a good benchmark.


Highett Metals are another option. They stock both new brass and buy and sell scrap metal of which you can buy as new lengths from if they have it when your there.
Brass Suppliers Melbourne | Brass Alloys - 385, 352, 360, 377 and 486 - Highett Metal (http://www.highettmetal.com.au/brass)

[rustynail]

Well thats your opinion, but -

The online catalog gave all the dimensions in imperial as OD's. That was therefore the logical starting point. I suppose that I could have said a smidgen either way rather than a millimetre, but then millimetres are part of our country's official measuring system where as smidgens AND, for that matter, inches are not.




He made no such attempt. Neither of us uttered the word pipe. The point was that the catalog only mentioned the outside diameter. Tube may be sold by the OD but it actually HAS an ID, which can be calculated if you know the OD and the wall thickness, which he knew and I did not and had no other way of finding out other than asking him. THe point was that regardless of the dimension that the product is sold by, in this case it was wanted by a customer who was more concerned with another dimension which was easily calculated from info he had readily available.



Now remembering that I discovered part-way through the conversation that he was on his way out of the door when I rang (on a day he claimed to always be open on) I think he just wanted to get me off the phone and get on his way once he found out it was only a small order. He then chose an untenable position to take to try to make out that he had nothing suitable so that I would go away. He should have just said he was out of stock and I would have thought nothing more of it. Instead he continued to maintain that a tube doesn't have an inside diameter if it is not written on the packaging.

Whichever way you look at it both tubes and pipes have both ID's and OD's, regardless of what measurement is used to identify them under the standards, and if a customer wants a product surely the business can make just a little effort to help out if they already have the necessary information - if they really want the sale.

Cheers

Doug
I guess the customer is always right.

[rrich]

That story is right up there with anything Monty Python ever did!

No, It's better!

[doug3030]

My ferrules have arrived.

They have an ID of approximately half an inch. They really do have an ID even though they are made of brass TUBE.

They also have an OD but I could not be bothered measuring it. It looks ok. Thats all that bothers me about the OD on this particular project.

They came from a forumite who saw this thread and contacted me by PM. He cut them to length and deburred them and posted them to me for a very reasonable price, saving me from having to drive around town probably spending the same amount in petrol and then having to cut them myself. I am very happy with what I got. I wont identify the person as he arranged it all privately by PM but he is free to identify himself if he wants to. Either way, thanks Mate.

Cheers

Doug

[Scott]

Great resolution Doug. This Mr. Anon is quite a benevolent person, well done Anon :2tsup:

[DSEL74]

Great resolution Doug. This Mr. Anon is quite a benevolent person, well done Anon :2tsup:


The generosity of some of the member on here with time, materials, and knowledge is fantastic!

Doug did you get my message about the other brass bits, etc and catching up? I'll be at the forum stand at the wood show also first up Sunday morning.

[smidsy]

My question would be why were you buying it?
Given the short peices you need, a trip to the skip of the nearest building site would get you all you need and more.
Oh and by brass, I assume you mean copper - my brother has been a plumber for almost 30 years, I've seen brass fittings by the ute load but only ever copper pipe?

[doug3030]

Oh and by brass, I assume you mean copper

And by "timber" I assume you mean "chipboard"? :p

No, if I meant copper I would have said copper. :?

Does copper have an ID or an OD?

Regardless of which it is sold by, your standard copper plumbing pipe has an ID that is too small for what I wanted.

In the end, I got a product that is better for the job than the one I was negotiating with "Mr Cheese Shop" for, with the added bonus of being cheaper and already cut to length and deburred and saved me petrol and time. :2tsup:

I am happy with the outcome

Cheers

Doug :2tsup:

[FenceFurniture]

I am happy with the outcomeNow are you sure you're happy? I mean there was no argument (5 minute or otherwise) about whether or not there's a measurable ID. There didn't even seem to be any plain old contradiction.

Think you better send them back.

[doug3030]

I mean there was no argument (5 minute or otherwise)


I told you! I am not going to argue unless you pay. :D

Doug

[FenceFurniture]

Do you take cards?

[rustynail]

My ferrules have arrived.

They have an ID of approximately half an inch. They really do have an ID even though they are made of brass TUBE.

They also have an OD but I could not be bothered measuring it. It looks ok. Thats all that bothers me about the OD on this particular project.

They came from a forumite who saw this thread and contacted me by PM. He cut them to length and deburred them and posted them to me for a very reasonable price, saving me from having to drive around town probably spending the same amount in petrol and then having to cut them myself. I am very happy with what I got. I wont identify the person as he arranged it all privately by PM but he is free to identify himself if he wants to. Either way, thanks Mate.

Cheers

Doug
Well there you go. You've got your tube and you now know what to ask for in the future. It can't get much better than that.

[doug3030]

Well there you go. You've got your tube and you now know what to ask for in the future. It can't get much better than that.


Yep, I asked for what I wanted and I got what I wanted.

I wouldn't ask the question any differently next time because it was the only way to describe what I wanted.

I will, however, be more careful as to who I ask it of.

Cheers

Doug :2tsup:

[rustynail]

That will limit your options.

[Bushmiller]

Yep, I asked for what I wanted and I got what I wanted.

I wouldn't ask the question any differently next time because it was the only way to describe what I wanted.

I will, however, be more careful as to who I ask it of.

Cheers

Doug :2tsup:

Doug

OD and wall thickness? (That's for the tube not the salesman's skull :) ) .

Regards
Paul

[doug3030]

That will limit your options.

Yep, it will limit it to those who can deliver the goods and cut out the time-wasters, regardless of how amusing thy can be. No point in contacting those that are unwilling to help, is there?

So, tell me RustyNail, who seems to be the only one who thinks I was being unreasonable, how would YOU have phrased the initial inquiry given that the OD was not important, but an approximate ID was? Remember that from my initial description I did in a roundabout way get exactly what I wanted so the directions were clear enough for everyone who posted in the thread to understand what I wanted INCLUDING YOU. :p:p:p:p:p


Cheers

Doug :2tsup:

[doug3030]

Doug

OD and wall thickness? (That's for the tube not the salesman's skull :) ) .

Regards
Paul

Yes, Paul, but when I talk about the density of the population I am not necessarily referring to how many of them live in a given square kilometer. :D

CHeers

Doug :2tsup:

[rustynail]

Yep, it will limit it to those who can deliver the goods and cut out the time-wasters, regardless of how amusing thy can be. No point in contacting those that are unwilling to help, is there?

So, tell me RustyNail, who seems to be the only one who thinks I was being unreasonable, how would YOU have phrased the initial inquiry given that the OD was not important, but an approximate ID was? Remember that from my initial description I did in a roundabout way get exactly what I wanted so the directions were clear enough for everyone who posted in the thread to understand what I wanted INCLUDING YOU. :p:p:p:p:p


Cheers

Doug :2tsup:
Hi Doug,
Thank you for your question. In a past life, I had the unenviable task of dealing with the public and government in trade related matters. Inquiries often became confusing due to the enquirer not being familiar with the correct terminology. Terms such as thingamejig, watsy or gizzmo tended to be a little vague and valuable time would be lost in trying to identify the item in question. The introduction of metric also created some further confusion when interposed with imperial. In the mid 80s the NSW Government Standards Committee decided to instruct manufacturers and industry to develop product specifications with standard terminology. I was one of the manufacturing representatives involved.
Now to answer your question. I would have asked for pipe as pipe is measured in ID. That simple.
Granted the salesperson could have been a little more informative rather than just repeating his original statement that tube doesn't have an ID, but he was probably sick and tired of the ill informed and wasn't prepared to take on an educational roll. Having served in that capacity I have empathy.
You are quite correct in pointing out the fact everyone understood your requirement (including me.) But that doesn't detract from the fact that what you were asking was technically incorrect. Therefore, there is no justification in holding the salesperson up for general ridicule or questioning his mental capacity, as some seem to deem necessary. He was correct if not articulate.
Life is an ongoing learning curve. Rarely does a day go by we are not offered the chance to learn something new.
This has been yours.

[A Duke]

"If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen" In the same vein if Joe Public gives you a pain in the proverbial don't take a job as a counter hopper. Find one where you are hidden in a back office without a phone. Don't put your customers off, the guy wanting a $1 collet today might have a few grand order for his boss next week.
Just my two bobs worth

[doug3030]

Now to answer your question. I would have asked for pipe as pipe is measured in ID. That simple.

Ok, so lets assume that I can start again.

I have looked at his online catalog and have determined that he has brass tube, but there is no mention of brass pipe at all.


It would probably have gone like this:

Me: Hi, I am after some brass pipe with an ID of about half an inch.

Him: I don't have any brass pipe mate, I only have brass tube.

Me: Great. Do you have any with an ID of about half an inch?

Him: Tube doesn't have an ID.

Me: Yes I know. That's why I asked for pipe. But seeing as how you have no brass pipe do you have a piece of brass tube that might suit. I am not all that worried about the OD, but it is important to my project that the ID be about half an inch.

Him: tube doesn't have an ID


Now we are back at the original start-point and the conversation will go the same way as before. All we have done is prolong the agony.

Cheers

Doug

[DSEL74]

Hi Doug,
Thank you for your question. In a past life, I had the unenviable task of dealing with the public and government in trade related matters. Inquiries often became confusing due to the enquirer not being familiar with the correct terminology. Terms such as thingamejig, watsy or gizzmo tended to be a little vague and valuable time would be lost in trying to identify the item in question. The introduction of metric also created some further confusion when interposed with imperial. In the mid 80s the NSW Government Standards Committee decided to instruct manufacturers and industry to develop product specifications with standard terminology. I was one of the manufacturing representatives involved.


I think your look at this through prejudices based on your own experience!




Now to answer your question. I would have asked for pipe as pipe is measured in ID. That simple.


He doesn't sell pipe I am sure he would say as it was a hobby shop not a plumbing supply.




Granted the salesperson could have been a little more informative rather than just repeating his original statement that tube doesn't have an ID, but he was probably sick and tired of the ill informed and wasn't prepared to take on an educational roll. Having served in that capacity I have empathy.
You are quite correct in pointing out the fact everyone understood your requirement (including me.) But that doesn't detract from the fact that what you were asking was technically incorrect.


Sorry but the sales person saying tube doesn't have an ID……….That is incorrect!! Tube may not generally be sold by a specified ID but it certainly has one.

I come from a design background and have even been involved with designing and producing extrusions where I had to supply the die drawings for manufacture. The crucial dimension is the crucial dimension regardless of what is generally used by people per industry. For example plastic plumbing pipe comes in a variety of sizes but wall thickness, and external dia are largely irrelevant because there is an industry standard and it only comes in set parameters so you can easily specify by one dimension only. Bass tube can come in various nominal wall thicknesses, with internal and external varying as a result. Pipe and tube are largely in terms of hobby requirements the same thing therefore asking for something that meets your critical dimension is a perfectly acceptable question.

If the sales person had gotten off his high horse rather than repeating an incorrect statement the issue could have very quickly been resolved…..OD - wall thickness = ID. Yes there is an id if not it would be rod/ round bar and not have a wall thickness either.

So I would say it is the sales person who needed to be educated not Doug as you suggest.





Therefore, there is no justification in holding the salesperson up for general ridicule or questioning his mental capacity, as some seem to deem necessary. He was correct if not articulate.
Life is an ongoing learning curve. Rarely does a day go by we are not offered the chance to learn something new.
This has been yours.

Sorry I repeat the the salesperson WAS INCORRECT saying tube doesn't have an ID……….That is incorrect!! Tube may not generally be sold by a specified ID but it certainly has one.

[rustynail]

Could it be possible the salesman was a little less than articulate by saying tube has no ID when what he meant was tube is not listed or nominated with an ID? The same could be said for pipe not having an OD.
If the original request had been for pipe there may have been every chance the customer would have been told we dont sell pipe, only tube. The informed customer would know the difference between the two and proceeded from there. It has become obvious the purchaser was not aware of the difference between tube and pipe at the time of the original discussion, but I am sure he is now. So, therefore is now educated. Hopefully, the salesman has also gained something from the experience and will rethink his response in future.
Prejudice plays no part here. The purpose of setting up standards was to prevent confusion within industry and, to a large extent, has been successful.
In this case, the critical dimension is determined by product description.
There are so many things that are known by different names in different places, often state to state. It all adds to the confusion. So, when an explanation of differentiation is forthcoming would it not be prudent to take it on board rather than shoot the messenger?

[doug3030]

OD - wall thickness = ID. :no: :no:


OD - (wall thickness * 2) = ID. :2tsup: :2tsup:


RustyNail, you don't happen to have a brother who runs a hobby shop in Melbourne by any chance, do you?

[Sturdee]

It has become obvious the purchaser was not aware of the difference between tube and pipe at the time of the original discussion, but I am sure he is now.


That was obvious but the salesman should have realized this and explained this to help the customer. He could have been helpful and gain a sale. In these times every sale is important and a salesman upsetting a customer will do so at it's peril. Gone are the days that you can treat a customer as an idiot for with the internet one upset customer can, by using YouTube or Facebook, bring a big company down. If this was posted on Facebook it would go viral within the hour.



Prejudice plays no part here.

All I can say that to me that sounds like a load of codswallop for your prejudice seems to be showing.


Peter.

[A Duke]

Does YouTube have an ID?

[doug3030]

Ok lets have a look at the link posted by Bedford in this thread to explain the difference.


[/FONT]edford;1704183]Difference between Pipes and Tubes (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pipes-tubes-d_347.html)


"PipesThe purpose with a pipe is the transport of a fluid like water, oil or similar, and the most import property is the capacity or the inside diameter.

http://docs.engineeringtoolbox.com/documents/347/pipes.png
For a ASME/ANSI B 36.10 Welded and Seamless Wrought Steel Pipe (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/steel-pipes-dimensions-d_43.html) the inside diameter - ID - of a NPS 2 inches pipe with


schedule 40 is 2.067"
schedule 80 is 1.939"

The inside diameters are close to 2" and the nominal diameter related to the inside diameter. Outside diameter are 2.375" for both schedules.
Since the outside diameter of a single nominal pipe size is kept constant the inside diameter of a pipe will depend on the "schedule (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pipe-schedules-d_557.html)" or the thickness of the pipe. The schedule and the actual thickness of a pipe varies with the size of the pipe."


So if pipe is sold by the Inside Diameter, why is a 2" ID pipe either 2.067" or 1.939" depending on whether it is schedule 40 or 80, yet the OD remains constant?
Well of course it is so that schedule 40 and schedule 80 pipe will both fit into the same fittings.

If you ask for 2" pipe neither the ID or the OD are 2". Looks a tad confusing to me

"TubesThe nominal dimensions of tubes are based on the outside diameter. If we look at Copper Tubes - ASTM B88 (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/astm-copper-tubes-d_779.html) the outside diameter of a 2" pipe is 2.125", relatively close to 2".

http://docs.engineeringtoolbox.com/documents/347/tubes.png
The inside diameter of a tube will depend on the thickness of the tube. The thickness is often specified as a gauge (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/BWG-wire-gage-d_508.html). If we look atCopper Tubes - ASTM B88 (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/astm-copper-tubes-d_779.html) the wall thickness of 0.083"of a 2" pipe is gauge 14.
The tolerances are higher with tubes compared to pipes and tubes are often more expensive to produce than pipes."






So Tubes are made to higher tolerances but a 2" tube OD actually measures 2.125"! So if you ask for a 2" tube neither the ID or the OD will be 2" either.

In summary, tubes are sold by the OD but the OD you ask for is not what you get, and pipes are sold by the ID and the ID you ask for is not what you get either.

If I was in the business of selling this stuff to hobbyists I would not generally expect them to know this stuff. If I was selling to trade then I would expect them to know.

I asked the same questions of major suppliers as well but they were all helpful, and a tad expensive and far away when it came to the offer I got to cut them all to length.

I chose not to argue with "Mr Cheese Shop" days ago but it just goes on and on in here.

It is obvious that the ID and the OD are a nominal figure and are not in any single case at all an accurate measurement. It is just a label to give it a name to sell it by and give a rough idea of the size. They could just as easily called a b c d e f etc.

I got exactly what I wanted with the same opening question and was understood by everyone else who I asked about their product.

I am going back to the shed to fit some brass ferrules cit from a brass tube with an ID of approximately half an inch, whether they exist or not.

Cheers

Doug

[FenceFurniture]

I chose not to argue with "Mr Cheese Shop" days ago but it just goes on and on in here. Maybe I'll get my money's worth after all.

Ten minute argument please, with all the trimmings.

[doug3030]

Maybe I'll get my money's worth after all.

Ten minute argument please, with all the trimmings.

Sorry, you are in the wrong room. It's being hit on the head lessons in here. :oo:

Doug

[Bedford]

Without getting involved with shopkeepers etc, one reason tube is referred to by the OD is that it often goes with a matching fitting where the ID is not so critical.

Things like towel rail ends need the correct OD so they fit properly, Towel Rail End Brackets, Economy Range, Chrome from Miles Nelson (http://www.miles-nelson.com/economy_end_brackets.php)

And also things like fittings for copper TUBE (that everyone calls pipe!) :D Copper Compression Fittings With O-Ring - China Copper Fittings, Copper Fittings With O-Ring (http://ysincere.en.made-in-china.com/product/loLxGukOfFhj/China-Copper-Compression-Fittings-With-O-Ring.html)

[doug3030]

one reason tube is referred to by the OD is that it often goes with a matching fitting where the ID is not so critical.

And yet, as I quoted above, for pipe, where its the ID that supposedly counts:

The inside diameters are close to 2" and the nominal diameter related to the inside diameter. Outside diameter are 2.375" for both schedules.
Since the outside diameter of a single nominal pipe size is kept constant the inside diameter of a pipe will depend on the "schedule (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pipe-schedules-d_557.html)" or the thickness of the pipe. The schedule and the actual thickness of a pipe varies with the size of the pipe."


So the pipe, which is sold by a nominal ID, which is never the same as it actually is, also maintains the same OD over the different wall thicknesses, so that only one size of fittings or ends are needed.

Its the same argument but one is ID the other is OD and neither are accurate.

Its a wonder anything more complicated than my little ferrules ever gets done under this system.

Cheers

Doug

[Bushmiller]

Doug

Really we have only just started. Tube, I think, qualifies for that term when it's wall thickness is of a sufficient thinness :?. Once the wall becomes suitably thick it becomes pipe, which is then described as, for example 2" NB where the NB stands for nominal bore.

However, if that has made things clear, it shouldn't have done, as it is nowhere near as simple as that. Fortunately, the steel makers produce Steel Mass books. These are not super-powered Jesuit priest hand books, but a pretty good guide to all the steel profiles including inside and outside dimensions as well as weights.

For tube, you can't go past a digital vernier gauge, although I accept it has it's limitations over the phone :rolleyes: .

Regards
Paul

[doug3030]

Really we have only just started.

Thats for sure Paul, I have been looking further into some of the stuff on the link Bedford posted. I am not blaming you for the content Bedford. I am just using your name to identify the link, OK?)

To quote:

"PipesThe purpose with a pipe is the transport of a fluid like water, oil or similar, and the most import property is the capacity or the inside diameter."

Well if the capacity is so important and there is such a big variation in the capacity of a section 40 2" pipe compared to a section 80 2" pipe?

Schedule 40 pipe - ID 2.067" = cross section of 3.3556 square inches

Schedule 80 pipe - ID 1.939" = cross section of 2.9529 square inches

That's a whopping 17% difference in cross section which may result in over 20% difference in volume of fluid that can pass through in a given time under given conditions but they are both classed as nominally 2" pipe - because capacity is the most important factor in pipe which is why it is measured by its ID (but not accurately)

No wonder I asked for tube :D :D :D

Cheers

Doug

[Bushmiller]

No wonder I asked for tube :D :D :D

Cheers

Doug

Doug

If you ever get to grips with tube and want to further your knowledge with pipe, this may help:

http://www.bjhowes.com.au/Know%20Your%20Steel%20Book.pdf

Regards
Paul

[FenceFurniture]

THE SCENE: Man sitting at a desk, staring at an old black 1970s phone on a desk. His hand is at the ready, waiting to pounce on the handpiece.

RING RING

HIM (with authority): “Hollow Metal Cylinders Incorporated, hello”

ME (tentatively): “Yes, I was wondering if you could help me please? Do you look like Michael Palin with a false moustache, spectacles and a white technician’s jacket? Blue shirt, striped tie, and so on?”

HIM (surprised): “Funny you should mention that Sir. I do, as a matter of fact, but only for today, and only while I’m here. I’ve been waiting for your call Sir!. How can I be of assistance to you today?”

ME (surprised, and a little feisty): “Oh good, because I look like John Cleese in a wet suit, with a fish in each hand, which I am prepared to use. (cautiously) I’d like to buy some Hollow Metal Cylinders please”.

HIM (gratified): “YES SIR. What size would you like?”

ME (knowingly): “Oh no you don’t – you won’t trick me like that with your silly salesman’s tricks!”

HIM (bemused and confused): “Beg pardon Sir?”

ME (confidently): “I said your salesman’s tricks won’t fool me. I know exactly what I want!”

HIM (with a slight rise in arrogance): “Glad to hear it Sir. Would you mind telling me what it is that you want?”

ME (needing reassurance): “Well, as long as you don’t laugh.”

HIM (reassuringly, but with choked laughter - already): “No, no, not at all Sir.”

ME (hesitantly reassured): “Alright. I’d like a brass hollow cylinder with an internal diameter of ½”

HIM (confident again): “Yes Sir. Would that be tube or pipe you were after?”

ME (on the ball): “AHA! YOU SEE? Playing games already! I told you, you won’t trick ME! You can call it what you like, but as long as it has an internal diameter of ½” and a wall thickness of approx 1mm then that is what I want.”

HIM (professional): “Hmmmm. I’ll just need to clarify that sir. Yes, you’re mixing Imperial and Metric measurements together, so I’ll ask you to use just one system to avoid confusion – yours and mine, Sir. AND, you really must tell me if the hollow metal cylinder you require is tube or pipe. There’s a difference you know!”

ME (aggravated): “NOW LOOK! I’ve already told you everything you need to know! Do you have a product that matches that description, or not?”

HIM (arrogant): “Well we probably do Sir, but in tube or pipe? I mean it’s a pretty simple question. You do understand the very simple question, don’t you Sir, or should I rephrase it? Yes, perhaps I will - pipe or tube sir?”

ME (confused): “I thought I was John Cleese??”

HIM (apologetic): “Quite right Sir. My apologies! Now then, tube or pipe?”

ME: (gambling): “Ah, I’ll take the, ah, ….just a sec……I’ll take the ….p…. no, the tu…..no, it’s PIPE that I want!”

HIM (confident again): “Ah, excellent choice Sir. I do believe that we may have that in stock!”

ME (relieved): “Well thank kee-rist for that. I thought I was going to order the wrong thing. I happen to know, you know, that tube doesn’t have an internal diameter!”

HIM (indignant): “Yes it does!”

ME (confused again): “What ever do you mean? Just because the inside is circular, it doesn’t mean it has an ID. You know that as well as I do!”

HIM (smartarse): “Ah, that was just a trick to make sure you REALLY knew what you were on about. Well done Sir, I see you know your tubes from your pipes eh? No fooling you sir! May I ask, what did Sir wish to use these Hollow Metal Cylinders for?”

ME (back on my own territory, and confident): “Oh well, I want to make some ferrules, but I guess you don’t know what they are. Yuk, yuk, they have an ID AND an OD, you know! Bet you’ve never heard of that before!”

HIM (to someone in the background): “HEY BERT?! This bloke just wants some Ferrule Hollow Metal Cylinders in Brass. How much have we got?”

ME (indignant): “WHAT? You mean you have an actual product specifically for Ferrules??”

HIM (also indignant): “Well yes of course we do. You only had to ask for it, you know. Sheesh! Tsk tsk tsk!”

ME: (irate now): “Well how the hell would I know that you know what I want? And you're being John Cleese again!”

HIM (perfunctorily): “Well if you said what you mean, instead of playing these stupid games, we could all have a laugh. As it is I’ve had to prise the information out of you. Typical bloody customer. Think they know everything, when all they really know is what they want! Starve the crows, I'm sick of know-alls like you! And WE have to do all the brainwork. I’m thinking of resigning you know.”

ME (completely bamboozled, bemused and amused): “What, because I asked for a specific item, AND got the terminology correct? You're balmy mate!”

HIM (curtly): “That it then, SIR!? Anything else? Hollow Metal Squares with non 90° corners perhaps?”

ME (ineptly controlling laughter): “No, that WILL be all for today. Thank you for your excellent help! OH! WAIT! There is just one more thing. What is the diameter of the outside of these pipes”

HIM (knowingly): “Ah, I see you’re learning Sir! Well done! I thought for a moment there you were going to ask for the Outside Diameter, but we both that pipes don’t have one eh?! The diameter of the outside is of course 14.7mm give or a take 1/128 of an inch.”

ME (relieved): OH FANTASTIC, it’s just the tube I’m after!”

HIM (outraged): “I’m sorry, did you say ‘tube’?”

ME (backpeddling fast): “No, I profoundly apologise! I meant to say pipe”.

HIM (in the knowledge that he has won): “HA! TOO LATE! No way am I selling it to you now! I’d rather eat sandwiches for dinner than sell this t…….pi……hollow metal cylinder to you, YOU FOOL! Goodbye, and don’t call again!”

Beep…beep…beep…beep





Man, I’m glad I didn’t ask why it’s called a ferrule, when it’s made of brass.

[Bushmiller]

Brett

Can I take it there won't be any pipe or tube for sale at the BM GTG 3: Just Oil and glue. Do we bring our own containers and will I get more if it is a large tube container or a large pipe container? Also how much is it to argue the toss? Could I bring Sybil to argue on my behalf? Oh, wait a moment, she might be contracted to a different mob :? .

You tell a good story :D .

Regards
Paul

[Sawdust Maker]

Fency

you're a sad sad man!


:rolleyes:

[rwbuild]

Best laugh I've had all day Fency :2tsup:

[FenceFurniture]

Brett

Can I take it there won't be any pipe or tube for sale at the BM GTG 3: Just Oil and glue. Do we bring our own containers and will I get more if it is a large tube container or a large pipe container? Also how much is it to argue the toss? Could I bring Sybil to argue on my behalf? Oh, wait a moment, she might be contracted to a different mob :? .

You tell a good story :D .

Regards
PaulWell, Mr W. Bush Miller, before we go any further, answer me this: is a Didgereedoo a tube or a pipe?

DO be careful how you answer!

[A Duke]

FF or TT for tripe writer of the year?
:D

[rustynail]

That was obvious but the salesman should have realized this and explained this to help the customer. He could have been helpful and gain a sale. In these times every sale is important and a salesman upsetting a customer will do so at it's peril. Gone are the days that you can treat a customer as an idiot for with the internet one upset customer can, by using YouTube or Facebook, bring a big company down. If this was posted on Facebook it would go viral within the hour.



All I can say that to me that sounds like a load of codswallop for your prejudice seems to be showing.


Peter.
What exactly strikes you as codswallop and what exactly have I said that you find prejudicial?
Every business has, from time to time, had to deal with dissatisfied customers. The manner in which they do this plays a large part in determining their success. To say a salesman upsetting a customer will do so at its peril is not necessarily correct, in that it breaks both ways; the customer upsetting the salesman can also produce a less than desirable outcome. I think both parties have a case to answer and therefore the need for one to ridicule the other is somewhat unnecessary. Why is it that people can't tolerate shortcomings in others, yet sweep their own under the carpet as if they dont exist? Nobody likes criticism, I should know, Ive copped enough of it here. May I suggest, an important character trait is the ability to own your mistakes. None of us are perfect.
We all fall short from time to time, but the ability to accept those short comings in others makes for a better society.
Please, if nothing else, could we agree that pipe is pipe and tube is tube? ID and OD?

[Bushmiller]

Well, Mr W. Bush Miller, before we go any further, answer me this: is a Didgereedoo a tube or a pipe?

DO be careful how you answer!

How long are we talking? What is the diametre (ID and OD).... I could go on. In fact the ID is traditionally a pipe :D.

Regards
Paul

[doug3030]

is a Didgereedoo a tube or a pipe?!

Neither. Its in the same class as the bagpipes and the alpenhorn. Its an ill wind that nobody blows any good. :D

Cheers

Doug

[rustynail]

Well, Mr W. Bush Miller, before we go any further, answer me this: is a Didgereedoo a tube or a pipe?

DO be careful how you answer!
Went into a shop once and asked for a grip of Tarzan's tube. They didnt know what I was talking about. I tried to elaborate by asking for the stick that stuffs. They must have been out of stock.
The things that happen when you dont have the correct terminology.

The didg is a tree with a pipe up it, but not all trees with a pipe up them are didges, only the ones in shops with a price tag on em and even some of them are suspect. If you buy one in London, you can take it on the tube.

[Timless Timber]

I'll have you know... sir,


FF or TT for tripe writer of the year?

... That I resemble that remark! :U

BUT

At least I don't waste my time here, following every post that someone I dislike makes, and reporting them ALL to the mods! :rolleyes:

It's funny - but the posts I cop the most flak from the mods for (I'm on their watch list now you see) :) are the very same ones that ordinary members give me the most "likes" for. :? :2tsup:

At the end of the day the old rule holds fast....

If you want to upset someone - tell them a lie....

But

If you want to upset EVERYONE - tell them the truth! :D

http://speakfearlessly.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/you-cant-handle-the-truth-meme-generator-you-want-the-truth-you-can-t-handle-the-truth-9789dd.jpg

I suspect now - having called it how I see it - that my 'banning' is just a matter of time. :)

So be it.

Cheers!

[FenceFurniture]

Neither. Its in the same class as the bagpipes and the alpenhorn. Its an ill wind that nobody blows any good. :D

Cheers

DougWell, I was nearly about to say "CORRECT" until I re-read your answer, and I'm afraid I have to give you a "Fail" on a technicality: in the same class as the Bagwhat?

[Sturdee]

What exactly strikes you as codswallop and what exactly have I said that you find prejudicial?


The answer is simple and referred directly to your statement that Prejudice played no part here as I quoted that directly above my remarks, namely:


Originally Posted by rustynail ---
Prejudice plays no part here.

It is my considered opinion that all your posts in this thread are biased, based on your work history, in favour of the salesman contrary to what everyone else would considered as normal behaviour of a business.

You may not like the way the world has become but the days of salesmen ignoring and making fools of customers by sticking to outdated standards instead of trying to help a possible customer is gone. That kind of attitude belonged to the era before the internet as now the power to complain and highlight business inadequacies belong to the consumer and social media.

Hence my comment of Codswallop which was the mildest term I could have used.

Peter.

[rustynail]

The answer is simple and referred directly to your statement that Prejudice played no part here as I quoted that directly above my remarks, namely:



It is my considered opinion that all your posts in this thread are biased, based on your work history, in favour of the salesman contrary to what everyone else would considered as normal behaviour of a business.

You may not like the way the world has become but the days of salesmen ignoring and making fools of customers by sticking to outdated standards instead of trying to help a possible customer is gone. That kind of attitude belonged to the era before the internet as now the power to complain and highlight business inadequacies belong to the consumer and social media.

Hence my comment of Codswallop which was the mildest term I could have used.

Peter.
To the contrary, I have not favoured the salesperson. In several posts I have stated the salesperson to have been wanting. My work history does play a part in my opinion as it is relevant to this situation. We draw from experience to make calculated decisions, there is no crime in that. The outdated standards you refer to are still current today. Salespeople fob off "potential customers" every day. This is a fact of life and only in an ideal world would a salesperson spend an unlimited amount of time with a customer he felt was going no where. Granted, he runs the risk of misjudging the potential, but that is the risk he takes and has to live with his decision. The notion that a customer must be assisted at every opportunity is a noble one, but in the real world doesnt always happen. How often have you been to a store and couldnt find someone to assist you? We live in a self service era. When was the last time someone filled your car with petrol and offered to check the oil? When was the last time you went to a hardware store and got somebody who actually knew something about the products they were selling. It does happen, but they are a gem.
This is not in the interest of defending the salesperson, this is just how it is out there. We, as a society, take delight in placing demands on others while not taking responsibility ourselves.
This thread started out taking the mickey out of a salesperson for being, at best, inferior. Problem here is the customer wasnt understanding what he was being told and was at a loss to see why this fellow was insisting on no inside dia. Had the customer been aware of the differentiation between pipe and tube, he would have understood what the salesperson was banging on about.
My original point being; ignorance always causes problems and highlights the importance of owning our mistakes.
As for companies living in fear of adverse publicity, that has been an issue long before the internet and has played a large part in keeping things on the straight and narrow. Unfortunately, today, we have the cloak of anonymity to hide behind which, in some cases, becomes the new form of Dutch courage.
Here's how I see it, call it codswallop if you will. Salespeople can often be rude and dismissive. Customers can often be rude and dismissive. Both are a given. Both cause problems. The solution? Information and education.
That is what I was aiming for. Just like in that previous life.

[Sturdee]

We could go on forever debating each and every point you raised in your reply where you maintained that the salesman was correct.

However I don't have the time to waste or inclination to do that for I have more important things to do, like currently rebuilding our BBQ area, for I doubt that you would come to your senses and agree that the salesman was at fault here.

So I'll agree that we both have different views and leave it at that.


Peter.

[Gra]

Problem here is the customer wasnt understanding what he was being told and was at a loss to see why this fellow was insisting on no inside dia

I dont care what the catalog says, i doesnt matter if its a tube or a pipe it still has an ID, it might not list it in the catalog it might not be the standard way of expressing the measurements, but it still exists. It was what the customer required, not a 2" pipe, but a pipe that had the charactaristic of an inside diameter. They wanted a pipe that met the following dimensions. If they wanted a standard size, they would have asked for it, it is not as if these catalogs are not available on the net.

If you ent to a computer shop and asked for a computer with a 1TB hard drive, would you expect them to say it doesnt have one we only have them with the following processor speed? Same conversation, same level of incompetence

[DavidG]

Long round things with a hole in the middle get called differently by different people.

All agreed!

Now get back to your workshops and make something useful.

[Gra]

Long round things with a hole in the middle get called differently by different people.

All agreed!

Now get back to your workshops and make something useful.

I cant I'm skyving off work

[DavidG]

:roflmao:

[rustynail]

We could go on forever debating each and every point you raised in your reply where you maintained that the salesman was correct.

However I don't have the time to waste or inclination to do that for I have more important things to do, like currently rebuilding our BBQ area, for I doubt that you would come to your senses and agree that the salesman was at fault here.

So I'll agree that we both have different views and leave it at that.


Peter.
The only point I raised maintaining the salesperson to be correct was that tube is measured in OD. Nor did I say the salesman was not at fault. I clearly stated both parties had a case to answer. As for coming to my senses, I will take that on notice and patiently await the arrival of a good reason to change my thinking. So I too will agree to differ, but do so without questioning your intellect.
Best of luck with the BBQ. One of lifes great luxuries.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

If you ent to a computer shop and asked for a computer with a 1TB hard drive, would you expect them to say it doesnt have one we only have them with the following processor speed? Same conversation, same level of incompetence

I guess that'd depend on whether the pipeline cache had an ID or an OD. :innocent:

[DavidG]

This is becoming drivel.

[rsser]

Drivel or amusement? What's the moderation policy?

Thread life IMO follows the 20:80 Pareto rule.

80% of the useful info will be included in the first 20% of responses.

The other responses fall into a category no less useful but in another field.

[tea lady]

This is becoming drivel.With the quiet demise of our Friday drivel threads it is coming out at inopportune moments. One can only hold it in for so long. :D

[DavidG]

Please refer http://www.woodworkforums.com/f43/driveller-forum-47446/