Should a canary be mandatory in your kitchen?

[Bushmiller]

According to recent studies, keeping a canary in the kitchen may be adviseable if you are using Teflon coated products. I would expect that most of us have something that is non-stick in the kitchen.

We have deliberately chosen only stainless cookware, but we do have one of those sandwich maker/grill type devices, which we use for grilling steak and this has a non-stick coating. It appears that Teflon breaks down into some rather insidious products (primarily gases) at elevated temperatures. Dupont, the company that patented the name back in the forties, has been a little shy of warning it's customers of potential danger and a little vague when asked direct questions if you can believe the reports.

There is some discrepancy between the temperatures that Dupont maintain are critical and those that have been realised in independent testing. Birds are particularly susceptible to these gases and smaller birds more susceptible again. Back in the nineteenth century canaries were used in underground mines to detect the presence of poisonous gas. Perhaps we now need them in the kitchen.

Some reading for you if you would like to pursue it:

Teflon / PTFE (non-stock-coating) Toxicity (http://www.avianweb.com/teflon.htm)

On why we sadly need canaries in the kitchen - news - *faircompanies (http://faircompanies.com/news/view/on-why-we-sadly-need-canaries-in-kitchen/)

Is Teflon safe? (June 2006) (http://www.townsendletter.com/June2006/healthrisk0606.htm)

There are mountains of information when you start to delve into it.

Some while back I suggested to SWMBO that Teflon could become the asbestos of the 21st century: Extreme?

Regards
Paul

[doug3030]

I have found teflon to be grossly over-rated. You have to be ultra-careful not to scratch it, it can separate from the base utensil and is expensive beyond its benefits.

I dont have any teflon-coated appliances in the house. We have high quality stainless steel cookware and are very happy with them. They last forever and are robust and hard to damage.


Doug

[MAPLEMAN]

Very interesting reading Paul,thanks for the info..MM:2tsup:

[BobL]

I spent about 15 years of my working life working with Telfon laboratory ware (mainly beakers) including heating them to some pretty severe temperatures. I was always more worried about the stuff inside them like concentrated HF, HCl and HClO4 , but maybe I should have paid more attention. One difference was we always used pretty strong fume hoods.

One thing I do know is that cooking oils that smoke at high temperatures (ie grape seed oil) should not be used in teflon coated pans.
Any smoking oil isn't exactly healthy for us either.
I guess that suggests that range hoods should be used in kitchen - maybe they should be wired in so that when the stove goes on so does the range hood.

[Poppa]

Don't like teflon either. We have enamel cookware in our kitchen and a beast of a cast iron frypan. But my wife imports and sells the enamel cookware, so we're not allowed to have anything else anyway. :;

[A Duke]

You will also note aluminium cook wear that was so popular about 20 years ago has quietly disappeared from the market.
Regards

[Gra]

My wife has often suggested a canary in our kitchen, but usually after I have cooked Mexican... Probably for a different reason though:U

[Bushmiller]

You will also note aluminium cook wear that was so popular about 20 years ago has quietly disappeared from the market.
Regards

Arthur

I was going to add that Teflon coated cookware is not the only thing to be aware of. Aluminium was OK until you started using a scourerTto clean it and then minute particle rolled around waiting to be absorbed with your food, but flouride's alright :?. The best thing I can say about aluminium is that it doesn't hurt anywhere near as much as when you are hit about the head with a cast iron frypan.

I really like cast iron and at home we have moved (back :) ) towards it in recent years, but I do have this slight hesitation about my well-being should I inadvertently make an indiscrete or ill-advised comment at a wrong moment in front of SWMBO :( .

Returning to the Teflon issue, my biggest gripe is that Dupont may have not have released their findings when they should. There is a parallel with the tobacco companies here and for that matter a once prominent Australian company who used to sponsor the Bathurst car race.

Overall the situation is not good and almost anything that is non stick comes under a cloud rightly or wrongly.

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

One thing I do know is that cooking oils that smoke at high temperatures (ie grape seed oil) should not be used in teflon coated pans.


Bob

Olive oil (which I guess is a grape), and ordinarily considered healthy, should not be overheated. We don't use it in that way.

Regards
Paul

[BobL]

Bob

Olive oil (which I guess is a grape), and ordinarily considered healthy, should not be overheated. We don't use it in that way.

Regards
Paul

Olive is not the same as grape. Grape seed oil is a high smoking point oil whereas olive oil is not.
The significant thing about the smoking point is most people will tend to keep the temperatures of their cookware below this point.
High smoking point means the oil does not break down as easily at higher temperatures which is healthier but it also means it is able to heat any teflon coated stuff to a higher temp which is not so good.

We use grape seed oil on the BBQ (Cast iron) or on SS ware but only olive in the one teflon coated frypan we have left.

[Master Splinter]

There is no risk to end-users of teflon coated products in normal use.

The risk comes in the manufacturing stage, which uses a chemical called perfluorooctanoic acid (or PFOA), and the US Environmental Protection Agency has labelled PFOA a potential carcinogen. DuPont paid US$300 million as an out of court settlement to residents near one of its manufacturing plants because of exposure to PFOA.

The point at which the teflon on cookware starts to deteriorate is 260C; and it decomposes above 350C.

As the smoke points of most common oils are around 170 to 220 degrees by the time your teflon even begins to degrade you've already got a kitchen full of oil smoke which contains all sorts of nice, possibly carcinogenic compounds (such as acrolein) anyway.

Acrolein is toxic (it's used as a herbicide and algaecide) and a strong eye/skin/mucal passage irritant, and is also found in cigarette smoke. It is a suspected carcinogen. Acrolein is a major cigarette-related lung cancer agent: Preferential binding at p53 mutational hotspots and inhibition of DNA repair (http://www.pnas.org/content/103/42/15404.full.pdf+html)

[BobL]

Perhaps a worse problem is when oils are not being used. If a teflon coated sauce pan boils dry it can easily get to teflon thermal decomposition temperatures. This happened to us at home 35 years ago, luckily no one was home at the time and the fumes had largely dissipated by the time we got home but the acrid smell hung around for weeks. I recognised the smell because I had done a similar thing at work with a 500 mL solid teflon beaker and even though it happened in a fume hood I'll never forget the smell.

[Bushmiller]

Master S

Thank you for the extra information.

One of the problems I have with multi-national companies (and I freely admit, it is a prejudice ) is that they don't always disclose all the information they have to hand probably for commercial reasons. Unless you have some inside information or a thorough understanding of the chemical processes involved and indeed what is even a harmful substance in the first place we carry on in blissful ignorance. This is from one of the sources I mentioned earlier:


On one hand, DuPont maintains all Teflon-coated cookware is safe because none of the PFOA used to make Teflon remains in the finished product. On the other hand, DuPont acknowledges that heating empty Teflon-coated pans releases toxic fumes, but only at temperatures exceeding 660°F (340°C). There is currently a class-action suit filed by several states claiming Teflon releases PFOA under normal cooking use and that the company did not warn consumers about its dangers.7,9

Independent tests show that preheating nonstick cookware can raise the temperature to 736°F in three minutes and 20 seconds. DuPont's own tests indicate Teflon off-gases toxic particulates at 446°F At 680°F, Teflon pans emit six serious toxins. Coated drip pans easily reach 1000°F, at which temperature, the coatings break down to a chemical warfare agent (PFIB) and phosgene (the chemical analog of a WWII nerve gas).3,7

Studies show that when used on conventional stoves, Teflon chemicals break down into dangerous particulates and gases, including two chemicals linked to cancer or tumors in lab animals (PFOA, TFE), two potent global warming gases (PFB, CF4), two chemical warfare agents (PFB, MFA), and a chemical analog of WWII nerve gas, phosgene (COF2).3


The extent of non-stick surfaces goes beyond the ubiquitous frypan, although I concede it is the first kitchen utensil that comes to mind. In our case our sandwich maker is rarely used with oil. A self-cleaning oven will incorporate Teflon.

In some ways I am surprised that the elevated temperatures at which Teflon emits noxious or harmful gases is so easily achieved. There is also an issue that Teflon once the surface becomes damaged becomes more prone to an exfoliation type process that results in similar health issues. Another concern is for people who smoke cigarettes (I knew it was a good move when I gave up aged eleven) as they chemicals have a propensity to combine.

These are some of the chemicals alleged to be given off by Teflon:


Studies show that when used on conventional stoves, Teflon chemicals break down into dangerous particulates and gases, including two chemicals linked to cancer or tumors in lab animals (PFOA, TFE), two potent global warming gases (PFB, CF4), two chemical warfare agents (PFB, MFA), and a chemical analog of WWII nerve gas, phosgene (COF2).3

When nonstick coatings are heated during normal cooking, a complex mixture of gases is produced that changes composition relative to temperature changes. Lacking adequate human studies, the following information is extracted from animal studies:
• 464°F Teflon produces toxic ultra fine particles, causing severe lung damage to rats within ten minutes of exposure and death at longer exposures.

• 680°F Tetrafluoroethylene (TFE) causes cancer in lab animals (tumors of the kidney, liver, and a form of leukemia). It is a suspected human carcinogen.

• 680°F Hexaflouropropene (HFP) exposure may cause eye, nose, throat irritation; irregular heart rate, palpitation; headaches, lightheadedness; fluid accumulation in the lung (edema); and possibly death. Exposed workers may experience decreased memory, learning, and motor skills. Inhalation of HFP by mice and rats causes decreased number of lymphocytes (type of immune cells) and increased urination. HFP promotes chromosomal abnormalities in hamster ovaries. (HFP is sometimes added to pesticides as an "inert" ingredient.)

• 680°F Trifluoroactic acid (TFA) has caused decreased growth of fetal rat bone-forming cells (osteoblasts) and cartilage cells (chondrocytes), and neural tube defects in rat embryos. TFA is toxic to plants, and it is persistent. Long-term environ-mental impacts remain unknown.

• 680°F Monofluoroacetic acid (MFA) is extremely toxic and lethal to humans in doses as low as 0.7 to 2.1 mg/kg. Exposure may cause nausea, vomiting, tingling, muscle twitching, low blood pressure, and blurred vision. High exposure is associated with irregular heart rate (ventricular fibrillation) and heart attacks.

• 680°F Perfluorooctanic acid (PFOA) never breaks down in the environment and has become ubiquitous in the blood of Americans. It is very toxic to rats and monkeys. In rats, PFOA causes tumors of the liver, pancreas, mammary gland (breast), and testes. It also decreases thyroid hormone levels.3


I am not a chemical engineer and I have to say I have not checked the sources extensively. There does however appear to be a considerable amount of discourse on the net on this subject and not all of it is even particularly recent. The two exerts above are from 2006.

I have highlighted the problem for discussion. I suspect in our household we will be discarding the sandwich maker and removing the self-cleaning panels of our oven.

Regards
Paul

[BobL]

Paul, if you ingest teflon it will pass straight thru as it will not dissolve or break down in any digestive juices. The most concentrated acid in the human digestive system is strong hydrochloric acid but telfon will withstand acid 10,000 time more concentrated than this under pressure at 150ºC for many weeks and not bat an eyelid. I've had some forms of it up to 210ºC with a mixture of concentrated nitric, HF and perchorlic acid and it does not dissolve.

Bugger, while typing this I burnt some fish in the teflon coated frypan!!!!!!

[crowie]

About 25yrs ago when I was working in manufacturing industry, my engineered plastics supplier gave me a roll of "Tygaflor".
Basically glass reinforced industrial teflon sheeting for heat transferring and we have used it in cooking ever since [oven, grill & BBQ].
Now Paul you've got me concerned about using this product??
It's similar to the product on this website - Cammthane : Tygaflor (http://www.cammthane.com.au/index.pl?page=56)
Cheers, crowie

[Bushmiller]

About 25yrs ago when I was working in manufacturing industry, my engineered plastics supplier gave me a roll of "Tygaflor".
Basically glass reinforced industrial teflon sheeting for heat transferring and we have used it in cooking ever since [oven, grill & BBQ].
Now Paul you've got me concerned about using this product??
It's similar to the product on this website - Cammthane : Tygaflor (http://www.cammthane.com.au/index.pl?page=56)
Cheers, crowie

Peter

Your product description says it is unaffected by temperature. There again the tobacco companies denied that smoking could harm your health :) .

Regards
Paul

[Bushmiller]

Paul, if you ingest teflon it will pass straight thru as it will not dissolve or break down in any digestive juices. The most concentrated acid in the human digestive system is strong hydrochloric acid but telfon will withstand acid 10,000 time more concentrated than this under pressure at 150ºC for many weeks and not bat an eyelid. I've had some forms of it up to 210ºC with a mixture of concentrated nitric, HF and perchorlic acid and it does not dissolve.

Bugger, while typing this I burnt some fish in the teflon coated frypan!!!!!!

Thanks Bob

I think you are trying to reassure me :) . My own belief is that Teflon toxicosis in varying degrees is real. There are so many things around us in modern life that are potentially harmful (mainly in a cumulative way) I will still be looking at turfing the Teflon gear. I prefer cast iron anywhere, although I haven't seen one with a 240V plug in it :? .

Regards
Paul

[Master Splinter]

The last pyrolytic self-cleaning oven I had, the self clean button locked the oven door so that the inside of the oven could be raised to 500C for a few hours while the process of pyrolysis broke down the organics, so I don't think self cleaning ovens use teflon to achieve self cleaning; they'll sometimes use catalytic coatings to speed up pyrolysis.

Really, you have to look at the relative risk; you're already cooking with something (butter or oil) that will start producing dangerous compounds at anywhere between 100-200C and flash into flame at 300C, yet people don't perceive the risk of vegetable oil smoke or vegetable oil fires as inherently as dangerous as teflon, as they see vegetable oil as a "natural substance". (even though four out of five house fires start in the kitchen (http://www.news.com.au/national-news/south-australia/four-out-of-five-winter-home-fires-start-in-kitchens-warn-mfs/story-fnii5yv4-1226654481104))

I guess it's like saying arc welders are dangerous because your jeans caught fire when you let the red hot welding rod rest on them, rather than taking precautions to make sure you don't touch flammable things with a red hot bit of metal.

Even the very process of cooking meat creates carcinogens: grilling and frying promotes the formation of benzo[a]pyrene and other polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (known carcinogens) as well as forming heterocyclic amines (more carcinogens), so from a full health perspective you'd do better by keeping the teflon pan, ditching the oil, and boiling your next slab of porterhouse in nice fresh water. But don't drink alcohol with your yummy boiled steak, as alcohol is a cancer promoter.

And what are you doing when you 'season' a cast iron pan? Nothing more than baking carcinogens into the pores of the iron, that's what (and filling the kitchen with carcinogenic smoke...)!

(Aldi currently has it's good but el-cheapo teflon pans on sale, by the way).

[doug3030]

[QUOTE=BobL;1696095]telfon will withstand acid 10,000 time more concentrated than this under pressure at 150ºC for many weeks and not bat an eyelid./QUOTE]

An interesting concept, teflon eyelids, and possibly other spare body parts, presumably for people who cant stand the heat? :D

Cheers

Doug

[Master Splinter]

I found this piece (about the 'Environmental Working Group' that did the 'Canaries in your kitchen' article) interesting.
Environmental Working Group Background, Funding, Controversies (http://www.activistcash.com/organizations/113-environmental-working-group/)

"One of the worst things that the Environmental Working Group has done is contribute to the myth that vaccines are leading to a spike in autism in America’s children. In 2004, the EWG published the paper “Overloaded? New Science, new insights about mercury and autism in children.” The paper reported that there are “serious concerns about the studies that have allegedly proven the safety of mercury in vaccines” and stoked fears that childhood vaccines like those for Measles, Mumps and Rubella are responsible for increased incidences of autism."

What's the real story with vaccines?
Anti-Vaccine Body Count (http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html)

[Bushmiller]

(Aldi currently has it's good but el-cheapo teflon pans on sale, by the way).

Master S

I did see those when I had a few minutes to kill when down in NSW. I nearly bought some for SWMBO and then I remembered her words never to buy her pots and pans for special occasions. I also was mindful of how much they would hurt if they contacted my head :) .

Regards
Paul

[Master Splinter]

Ohhh...yeah - 5mm thick aluminium would really hurt....no denting that with your skull....

[rrich]

This is going back to the "Apollo Project". (Mid to late 1960s.)

NASA was then at their anal retentive best. As we were building the support equipment (as I'm sure the same rules applied to the blokes building the capsules) NASA was concerned about wires being nicked by the insulation stripping tools. To this end, they devised a thermal wire stripping device. (Worked well on small diameter wires but was h*** on large wires. On wires with rubber insulation it really stunk up the shop.) The general specification for wiring directed that we were not to use thermal strippers on Teflon insulated wire due to the hazardous fumes.

That being said, according to building codes only Teflon insulated category 5 or 6 wiring may be used in the air return plenum of commercial buildings due to fire concerns.

I hope that your government regulations are established using more intelligence than ours.

As for the Teflon coating on cookware, I doubt that there is enough Teflon in the coating to create hazardous fumes under any conditions. More urban / Internet myth???

[Bushmiller]

Ohhh...yeah - 5mm thick aluminium would really hurt....no denting that with your skull....


Master S

Alas, I think you may have taken me too literally: My fault, I omitted the smiley face. There again I hadn't considered it was necessary :rolleyes: .

However, if I was going to be hit on the head with a frypan, at a density of roughly one third of cast iron, I would prefer it was aluminium.

You may also be interested to know the origins of ActivistCash, the reference that seeks to discredit EWG.

ActivistCash.com is a web site affiliated with the Center for Consumer Freedom (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Center_for_Consumer_Freedom) (CCF), a front group (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Front_group) for the restaurant, alcohol and tobacco industries. ActivistCash.com was launched in November 2001. For more, see the SourceWatch article on A visit to the ActivistCash.com web site (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/A_visit_to_the_ActivistCash.com_web_site).
ActivistCash.com was created by Berman & Co. (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Berman_%26_Co.), a public affairs firm owned by lobbyist Rick Berman (http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Rick_Berman). Based in Washington, DC, Berman & Co. represents the tobacco industry as well as hotels, beer distributors, taverns, and restaurant chains.
In a 1999 interview with the Chain Leader, a trade publication for restaurant chains, Berman boasted that he attacks activists more aggressively than other lobbyists. "We always have a knife in our teeth," he said. Since activists "drive consumer behavior on meat, alcohol, fat, sugar, tobacco and caffeine," his strategy is "to shoot the messenger. ... We've got to attack their credibility as spokespersons."
ActivistCash.com was established for precisely this purpose. It attempts to discredit activists by suggesting that there is something disreputable about the money they have received from foundations.

Incidentally, EWG is just one concerned group. I was reluctant to list too many links lest I become (more) tedious :- .

It would seem that everybody has an agenda :) .

Regards
Paul

[A Duke]

It always amazes me how all the unbiased reports always come out in favour of the mob paying for the survey.
Maybe I am biased.
Regards

[BobL]

Just been to the docs to address a raft of issues including this flu that I have had for nearly 5 weeks.

Another issue is an umbilical hernia which seems to be getting a bit bigger in the last few months. I asked the doc what the deal is and he says firstly my guts won't explode outwards which is good, so the main reasons for the moment would be cosmetic. Apparently they fix it by implanting a teflon mesh internally across the belly button and stitch it all up. Rather amusing that we were talking teflon over the last few days.

[Timless Timber]

Another issue is an umbilical hernia which seems to be getting a bit bigger in the last few months. I asked the doc what the deal is and he says firstly my guts won't explode outwards which is good, so the main reasons for the moment would be cosmetic. Apparently they fix it by implanting a teflon mesh internally across the belly button and stitch it all up. Rather amusing that we were talking teflon over the last few days.

Had it done in 2008 Bob.

Been OK since, but I don't lift many Jarrah slabs any more these days coz it can re-tear apparently.

I guess if the dust don't kill me, then the teflon pad likely will. :)

It was worth getting done Bob, it's more than cosmetic - after a while the herniated umbilicus starts to hurt - it doesn't get any better on its own - only worse as the skin stretches.

Get it fixed - you won't regret doing so in my experience.

And you can still cut slabs - just get someone younger and fitter to lift em for you from now on! No good getting old, if you don't get cunning! Age & cunning overcomes youth and exuberance every time!. :wink:

Cheers

[rustynail]

A good cook doesnt need a teflon pan.
When i first left school I headed for the bush to work. My first job was with a family who grew hay on a pretty large scale. The boss was a big fella, well over 6 feet and about 18 stone. The Misses was a tiny but wild thing who took no crap. One evening, the boss was drying up and made some remark the "cook took exception to, so she let fly with the electric frypan, hitting the boss in the back of the head! Blood everywhere! It was my job to take him to hospital to have his head stitched.
Some years later, the pair were shopping for a new frypan "The Wild Thing" suggested she would like to try teflon,
as she picked one up for a look. The old boss agreed that it may be a good idea as it would be more inclined to slip off his head. "The Wild Thing" promptly turned and clouted him on the head with the frypan. Apparently, the teflon afforded him no protection whatsoever.

[Bushmiller]

"The Wild Thing" promptly turned and clouted him on the head with the frypan. Apparently, the teflon afforded him no protection whatsoever.


RN

:D

Teflon has earned it's place in the Guinness Book of Records as the most slippery surface on the planet.

Regards
Paul

[Master Splinter]

Would anyone in Queensland like to check that geckos can't stick to teflon? It's supposed to be immune to van der waals interactions....

[cava]

Some while back I suggested to SWMBO that Teflon could become the asbestos of the 21st century: Extreme?


Sadly, I suspect you would be correct in this assumption.

[Master Splinter]

I think the anti-vaccination movement has a far better chance of being (one of) the asbestoses of the 21 century; it's certainly been getting a good death count, better than any other novel health risk of the last ten years or so.

I had high hopes for homeopathy getting a ranking, but it seems too many people go to regular doctors when they have really serious conditions. Breatharians seem to get enough of a craving for food to stop them dying, so I'm not holding my breath there, either.

[silverback1]

If nothing sticks to Teflon, how does it stick to the pan.?

[crowie]

If nothing sticks to Teflon, how does it stick to the pan.?

Yes, some years back, there were concerns in the public when one of the paint manufactures added teflon to there paint; for how would the second coat be applied???

[BobL]

If nothing sticks to Teflon, how does it stick to the pan.?

One side of a teflon sheet or film can be treated so that it accepts an adhesive but that is not how it is done with fry pans where the surface is etched so that irregular shaped dovetails are formed in the metal so when the teflon is applied as a spray it keys it's way into the metal.

[jimbur]

What's the real story with vaccines?
Anti-Vaccine Body Count (http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.com/Anti-Vaccine_Body_Count/Home.html)
It's a message that really needs repeating and repeating. My job used to entail visits to institutions for the deaf and blind. With the children the main causes were mumps, measles and rubella. Sorry if this is a bit away from teflon.

[jimbur]

MS, did you see the Mitchell and Webb skit about a homeopathic emergency ward. Car accident victims treated with a dilute solution of bumper bar.:D

[Master Splinter]

I like the idea of dilute bumper bar....does it have to be matched to make and model for the best effect??

So, extending that logic further, could you make a very, very, very dilute solution (therefore very powerful) of bullets to impregnate a vest (I'm talking chesty-bonds-like vest, not bullet proof vest) with as a sort of instant-curative for gunshot wounds? Get shot - healed! Get shot - healed! Get shot - healed! It'd be just like computer gaming!!!

[BobL]

I like the idea of dilute bumper bar....does it have to be matched to make and model for the best effect??

So, extending that logic further, could you make a very, very, very dilute solution (therefore very powerful) of bullets to impregnate a vest (I'm talking chesty-bonds-like vest, not bullet proof vest) with as a sort of instant-curative for gunshot wounds? Get shot - healed! Get shot - healed! Get shot - healed! It'd be just like computer gaming!!!

That's what Nazi Mengele was chasing in some of his experiments with live subjects.

[CAG]

Would anyone in Queensland like to check that geckos can't stick to teflon? It's supposed to be immune to van der waals interactions....

Mmmm...gecko

[Master Splinter]

...you don't need to cook the gecko...

[jimbur]

I like the idea of dilute bumper bar....does it have to be matched to make and model for the best effect??
Ideally yes. If it didn't work they doubled the amount of water.:U

[slidingdovetail]

I'd rather put a toxic fumes meter thingy in the kitchen rather than a canary.

If I had a canary in there, I'd need to look after it, end up getting too attached then become really sad if it was to die from teflon poisoning. At that point I'd forget it was the teflon that killed it and continue to live my life.

But if the canary doesn't die, instead he kept sqawking when the toxic levels got high, I'd automatically think the silly bird needs to shut up and end up either feeding it, yelling at it or singing to it.

A toxic fumes meter is more practical for my kitchen.

Oh that's right, I don't even use teflon :doh:

[RETIRED]

285230Teflon kettle?

[Bushmiller]

285230Teflon kettle?

There you are! I knew it; I knew it! Teflon can damage your health :D .

Funny thing is. Dupont agrees. Their only dispute is over what temperature this occurs and whether such temperatures can be easily achieved in the kitchen environment.

Dupont is apparently on record as stating that PFOA, perflourooctanoic acid (also known as C8), although used in the manufacturing process is not present in the finished product. This conflicts with their statement that only small quantities are released at elevated temperatures :? .

Interestingly, the Dupont factory in Parkersburg, West Virginia where it is the sole manufacturer of Teflon, settled out of court when one of the largest class actions in the US was brought against them. It alleged that they were responsible for contaminating the town water supply with PFOA. Although details were confidential as part of the agreement it is estimated that it would have been around $340,000,000. Just a little bit of Saturday night trivia. :)

3M, another company that specialises in surface coatings, ceased the use of PFOAs in their products back in 2000.

Regards
Paul

[Master Splinter]

Using a canary as an indicator relies on assuming that there is a one-to-one mapping between substances (and quantities) that are toxic to canaries and things that are toxic to humans.

So if you tested say, funnelweb spider bite toxin on a canary, you'd label it as non-toxic - it's only fatal to primates. And while the average human can scarf down chocolate with relative impunity, dogs and cats metabolise the theobromine in chocolate much, much more slowly so it presents a serious health risk to them. Again, humans (even babies) can process N-propyl disulphide (from garlic and onions) in breathtaking quantities, but it can cause liver failure in cats.

Birds have very efficient respiratory systems; this means that airborne toxins can be built up rapidly, at rates faster than their body can process them out.

[Bushmiller]

Master S

You have a very valid point regarding the different susceptibilities of species.

Canaries were traditionally used in underground mines to give early warning of concentrations of gases toxic to humans such as carbon monoxide, methane and, in excessive quantities, carbon dioxide (to the exclusion of oxygen). These were gases that affected both humans and birds.

The tests in the case of Teflon have only involved canaries and rats. At this stage there have been no volunteers from the human contingent :).

Having said that, in 1981 (Dupont have been aware of the potential for problems since at least 1961) Dupont conducted a study to see if there were any birth defects amongst babies born to women who had been exposed to PFOA. They did this because rats exposed to PFOA showed marked problems with their progeny.

Dupont chose eight women. Not a a very convincing test, none of the usual control groups and a dismally small sample, I know, but bear in mind this came from Dupont themselves. They had a criteria that if one birth defect appeared they would chalk it up as coincidence even though that ratio was well out of the norm. If two or more birth defects occured they would know they had a problem.

Two women had babies with birth defects. Not only were the defects similar, but they were identical to the defects to the testing on the rats of eye and facial problems. Dupont transferred the women to different departments, shut down the health studies and continued with business.

Just back on the subject of canaries, one of my many jobs was working at the BHP steelworks in Newcastle. They had stopped using canaries because the birds had developed a tolerance to the poisonous gases. They had been breeding the birds in the vicinity of the blast furnace!

Regards
Paul

[jimbur]

[QUOTE=Master Splinter;1696873]Again, humans (even babies) can process N-propyl disulphide (from garlic and onions) in breathtaking quantities.
Love that.:D

[Bushmiller]

Again, humans (even babies) can process N-propyl disulphide (from garlic and onions) in breathtaking quantities, but it can cause liver failure in cats.



Master S

I grew garlic commercially for a while. That was another of my mistakes in life. However, I asked a herbalist friend to tell me about the qualities of garlic. He said " Have you got a spare week?" I don't think I ever did get to hear exactly what the qualities were.

Other animals may be affected by the N-propyl disulphide such as horses and cattle. Worms definitely don't like it and that might be why it is used as drenching compound.

I know I stunk of garlic for nearly a year even if I wasn't eating it. It is a very intrusive aroma.

All extra support for your statement regarding relative susceptibilities across animal species.

Thanks for alerting me to the existence of N-propyl disulphide. I just thought garlic had a pungent odour, but I suspected I was missing something and life might not be quite that simple :wink::) .

Regards
Paul

[Master Splinter]

If you want garlic pong, you should actually try jumping down the column in the periodic table; selenium compounds can apparently leave you with garlic breath for several months after ingestion.

I always find this blogger's posts well worth reading - Eight Toxic Foods: A Little Chemical Education. In the Pipeline: (http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/06/21/eight_toxic_foods_a_little_chemical_education.php)

[jimbur]

I like the idea of canaries developing immunity and singing happily as the humans cark it. The future could be yellow and feathered.:D

[Bushmiller]

If you want garlic pong, you should actually try jumping down the column in the periodic table; selenium compounds can apparently leave you with garlic breath for several months after ingestion.

I always find this blogger's posts well worth reading - Eight Toxic Foods: A Little Chemical Education. In the Pipeline: (http://pipeline.corante.com/archives/2013/06/21/eight_toxic_foods_a_little_chemical_education.php)

Master S

A good read. Well reasoned and thought out.

He mentions the animals used in experiments. Do any of you recall that in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy the mice are the masters of the universe? Arthur protests that humans only use them for experiments to shape the way we behave......:rolleyes:

Regards
Paul