Tax

[Jack E]

Inspired by Iain's joke

Is anybody else happy about the new tax cuts?
I am recieving a significant reduction in the amount of tax I will pay over the next few years but am sick of hearing about the people on lower incomes whinging about how good I have it.
Yes I am saving a whole lot more money than others but that is only because I pay a whole lot more than them in the first place.
Not only that, I don't use many of the services I pay for with my taxes.

I think the government should tax everybody at a flat rate of 10%, no rebates, no concessions, no deductions, no exceptions.
If this were the case the high earners would not need to "hide" money, as is the case now, to circumvent an unfair Robin Hood style tax system (by Robin Hood I mean STEALING from the rich to GIVE to the poor).
There would be a whole lot more tax paid and it would be a fair system, you earn $10, you pay $1 tax, simple.
Another benefit would be that if the are no rebates, deductions etc, we could do away with a large chunk of the ATO which would save the country even more money!!

Just another little rant, on the topic of student unions.
I heard a student say the other day that if student unions were no longer compulsory, many students would use facilities and services paid for voluntarily by other students.
Is this not very similar to the way students at the moment use facilities and services paid for unwillingly by other students who do not use them.
These whinging students are probably the same people who end up on low incomes and then complain about the rich not being taxed enough!

BTW, my partner was at Uni for 7 years and never once used a service provided by the student union, but did pay 7 years of union fees.

I think it is about time people realised that if you want something, you have to pay for it!

Thanks for letting me vent my anger,

Jack

[Dan]

Is anybody else happy about the new tax cuts?

Yes, but then I'm a wicked high income earning electrician.http://www.ubeaut.biz/ohbrother.gif

[Rusty]

Jack, perhaps you misread Iain's post. It's the poor people who are supposed to do the whinging.

[craigb]

I thought that we weren't supposed to talk politics. :confused:

You'll give conniptions :p

Craig (who's not lining up to give his tax cut back :) )

[silentC]

Jack, Jack, Jack, you just don't get it, do you?

The idea of the current tax system is perfectly simple. The sliding scale allows the Government to make the appearance of being harder on the high income earners (stealing from the rich). Meanwhile, the system of deductions, rebates and other loopholes allows the rich to escape paying the extra tax. If you want to change the system so that Kerry actually has to pay more tax (I bet he doesn't pay anything like 10%), you will just force him to shut up shop here and move somewhere with a nicer climate. Then where would we be?

And yes, if you are getting a significant tax cut, then you have it good. Me too but at least I acknowledge it ;)

We wont go into the whole "I don't use the services" argument. Everybody knows that the people who need it the most contribute the least, that's the nature of a social welfare system.

[bitingmidge]

Course I'm happy!
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


P (but I agree with you Jack!) ;)

[adrian]

I like the idea of a 10% flat rate of tax because, not only will I never have to pay tax again, but the government will have to give me money.
Not that I pay tax anyway.

[Iain]

10% flate rate, never going to happen here Comrade :rolleyes:
As for student unions, I endured those for years and the only thing I saw come out of those was the funded pot smoking sessions at weekends.
I thought uni was for the more intellectual elite, who should be able to look after themselves without the need for union intervention, although I found it varied from uni to uni.
I never went to LaTrobe, only Melbourne where everyone was well behaved and some post grad work at MOnash where we kept to ourselves anyway.
Never really figured out what a student union was.

[nic]

Inspired by Iain's joke

I think the government should tax everybody at a flat rate of 10%, no rebates, no concessions, no deductions, no exceptions.
Jack

They did that ages ago, it's called the GST

And as Bond or Packer said "I wouldn't mind paying more tax if the gvt spent it wisely" But I guess that's not about to happen

Nic

[Iain]

They did that ages ago, it's called the GST

And as Bond or Packer said "I wouldn't mind paying more tax if the gvt spent it wisely" But I guess that's not about to happen

Nic
At risk of being a pedant GST is only a sales tax, not income or other little hidden nasties.

[silentC]

They did that ages ago, it's called the GST
Actually, what we're talking about here is income tax.

The GST replaced sales tax and various other taxes and duties imposed by State & Federal Governments on goods and services. That worked well, too didn't it? It was supposed to stop the 'blackmarket' trade. Hah! It was supposed to eliminate stamp duties. As if!! It was meant to provide extra revenue to the States so they could fix up the hospitals, schools and the roads. Yeah, right!!!

What did it really do? It made life more complicated for a lot of businesses and drove a few to the wall. We still pay stamp duty and the State government still cries poor.

Kerry Packer pays GST on everything the same as we do ;) I'll bet he wouldn't volunteer to pay more income tax, whether it was spent wisely or no.

[nic]

At risk of being a pedant GST is only a sales tax, not income or other little hidden nasties.

Technically yes, but don't you need to buy things to live ?
From where I stand giving them tax on you income or giving them tax when you spend that income is the same. Unless you never spend anything, but then how do you live ?
Income tax is only part of it, you can't split up the 2 (direct & indirect taxes)

"THEY" don't wan't you to see it that way , quick tinfoil hats on :D :D

Nic

[dan_tom]

Hi Jack E

I am surprised that your wife does not know what student unions provide, given that she has been at university for 7 years! I have been enrolled in various courses (undergraduate and postgraduate) for a few more years than that (and before you ask... graduated them all and passed every single subject!) and am fully aware of what a university union or student guild can provide, given that they represent all students (including marginalised groups such as Women, Queer, International, Indigenous and those students with a disability). There are several that are conducive to improving social cohesion on campus, such as activities based events, environment, education and sport - without these many students would feel rather isolated on campus. Some universities offer "Life" memberships too...

I am sure anyone who has been to unversity would agree it is not just about getting a career qualification in the form of a degree - an education is about so much more than that. Being a university student is a unique phase of life in which many lifelong friendships and networks are established, where our political opinions and ideologies develop and change, where we can engage in freedom of expression and the free flow of ideas, debates about the meaning of life and the role of society. This must be nourished and protected if society is to grow and become richer. I think that Student Unions are absolutely vital in providing a sense of campus community and campus culture at university. The activities and events the Guild runs are an essential part of university life. Just think how dull and dismal university would be without O'Week celebrations, without any clubs or societies, without any of the bands, BBQ's, markets, films, fiestas and forums run by the Guild.

The National Union of Students in its current form came into being in 1987 after the collapse of its predecessor, the Australian Union of Students, in 1984. It was formed at the same time that the Hawke government introduced the Higher Education Contribution Scheme (a system of deferred tuition payments), abolishing the free education system previously introduced by the Whitlam government. It shouldn't just be about the rich going to university, or city dwellers - but for all classes (through scholarships and opportunity), rural/remote, etc etc. It'd be boring if it was just rich white kids!

Quite often many of us do not use the services that our taxes pay for. I don't really want to use cancer and palliation services provided by the heatlh system, corrective services by the prison system etc...that my taxes pay for, but realise that these services are necessary for a functioning society where there is not extreme health and welfare inequities that set this country apart from others.

I'd be all for rejecting the tax cuts and diverting them to where we desperately need it - working in health and education, I can see glaringly the health inequities and inequalities faced every day. Recently one of my patients was torn between providing food for her family or a new asthma medication for her son (whilst other folk zoom by in their fuel guzzling 4WDs adding to the very problem that causes asthma....). :confused:

Cheers
Dan

[adrian]

10% flate rate, never going to happen here Comrade :rolleyes:

I don't know what the "Comrade" bit was about but I was being facetious.
Kerry Packer and the ultra rich would love a flat tax rate.
If he had one billion dollars worth of PBL shares he would earn $37 million a year from dividends. The company pays 30% tax and shareholders get that as franking credits so under the present system he would only have to pay the difference of 17% tax because he was on the top rate. So effectively he would be paying the same tax rate as a wage earner on less than $20,000.
Under a 10% flat rate system, not only would he not pay the 17%, but he wouldn't pay ANY tax at all and the tax office would have to give him back 60% of the 30% tax that the company paid on their profits.
Under the new tax arrangement, a person will be able to earn up to $70,000 on investments such as this and never have to pay a cent in tax.
Any person who thinks that rich people pay a lot of tax is severely misinformed. Wage earners are the only ones who pay high taxes on high incomes.

[Iain]

I don't know what the "Comrade" bit was about but I was being facetious.
So was I, equality for all, animal farm etc........from he who drives a fuel guzzling 4WD for a reason, not like the pollies who have one huge V8 limo each when they finish a sitting, can't they car pool, the food additives which I believe are a major contribution to asthma, and I have one daughter who suffers from this, people who won't car pool, oil burners who think it's OK, cockies spraying on windy days, objectors to wind farms, I'm sure the birds soon learn that they do hurt if you try to go through one, oil companies ripping us off blind, so the list goes on but it's all good for the Government who I notice won't put a ban on smoking and associated products.

[maglite]

I have been reading this post with a fair amount of interest.
One thing i cant work out tho and it is never mentioned when the debate turns to tax and the rich v poor.
What magical $$ figure defines rich from poor?
40,50,60 grand......which is it?
We always hear about the Packers etc and their ilk, incredibly wealthy and good luck to them, but they cannot be the sole example surely.
The vast majority of the population earns considerably less.....so the question remains:
Who are the rich?

[bitingmidge]

Who are the rich?
Anyone with more dough than me.


Cheers,

P :D

[adrian]

So was I, equality for all, animal farm etc........from he who drives a fuel guzzling 4WD for a reason, not like the pollies who have one huge V8 limo each when they finish a sitting, can't they car pool, the food additives which I believe are a major contribution to asthma, and I have one daughter who suffers from this, people who won't car pool, oil burners who think it's OK, cockies spraying on windy days, objectors to wind farms, I'm sure the birds soon learn that they do hurt if you try to go through one, oil companies ripping us off blind, so the list goes on but it's all good for the Government who I notice won't put a ban on smoking and associated products.
From another owner of a gas guzzling 4WD...........ditto to all the above.
As for the objectors to wind farms, I don't understand what they are all about. Can anyone think of something bad about wind generators.
I can remember talking to someone who was going to go to a demo to protest the construction of the monorail in Sydney. I couldn't help having a dig at them by telling them that if their great great grandchildren are as caring as they are, they will be joining a demo 100 yrears from now because the Sydney City Council want to tear it down.
Don't get me started on smoking. ;)

[Jack E]

Just to clarify,

All I am saying is that the tax system has made a move toward becomig fairer and many people are complaining about this

I don't understand why.

I do acknowledge and am happy about the tax cut I will recieve, that is why I said is anybody "else" happy about the cuts, implying that I am.

I do acknowledge that there are areas which require more funding but I don't see why I should pay a higher percentage for this than any other Australian (and yes, I do realise that this is never going to change!!).
I'm sure if you paid more than somebody else to join a golf club and they got to drive a buggy while you had to walk you would not be very happy. In every other aspect of life if you pay more money you get the better deal!

Thanks to whoever brought up the GST. Wasn't this to be followed by a reduction in income tax. I guess this is what has just happened so in effect they are not tax cuts at all, just evening up a system meaning we have been grossly overcharged since the introduction of GST.

Dan, you said about student unions "There are several that are conducive to improving social cohesion on campus, such as activities based events, environment, education and sport - without these many students would feel rather isolated on campus." It is great that uni students are provided social oulets but why shouldn't they pay for them as they use them? If they get a job and earn money on graduation they will have to!!
You also said "Being a university student is a unique phase of life in which many lifelong friendships and networks are established, where our political opinions and ideologies develop and change, where we can engage in freedom of expression and the free flow of ideas, debates about the meaning of life and the role of society."
I agree that political opinions can be formed, namely those against compulsory student unions!
I agree that we can have freedom of expression, ie, expressing your freedom not to contribute to a student union!

My partner attended the UQ Medicine School where she actively contributed to many clubs and organisations run by the Med school, not the University as a whole. She was also forced to contribute to the union so it could provide services she did not use.

BTW, my partner drives a fuel guzzling 4WD, the fuel for which we pay tax on :D

Remember, I started this thread not by saying I don't want the government to provide services but by saying I was sick of the fact that some people are complaining about those of us that pay alot of tax getting a bigger tax cut.
I cannot see how high income earners now being taxed less is not fair (or at least moving towards fair).

Cheers
Jack.

[silentC]

What magical $$ figure defines rich from poor?
What about > 2 standard deviations higher than the mean? That sounds good to me. :)

[Jack E]

What magical $$ figure defines rich from poor?
40,50,60 grand......which is it?


When I get there I will let you know :D :D :D

Jack.

[craigb]

What about > 2 standard deviations higher than the mean? That sounds good to me. :)

Nah, I prefer Midge's definition :D

[Jack E]

I am surprised that your wife does not know what student unions provide, given that she has been at university for 7 years!

Dan,

My partner knows exactly what student unions provide. She paid fees for 7 years for services she didn't use.
If she did use services, she would have gladly contributed to those she used, not the others.
That is what I think all students should have the freedom to do!!

Jack.

[adrian]

Dan,

My partner knows exactly what student unions provide. She paid fees for 7 years for services she didn't use.
If she did use services, she would have gladly contributed to those she used, not the others.
That is what I think all students should have the freedom to do!!

Jack.
I wholeheartedly agree.
If someone is at a university and is in financial difficulties they wouldn't want to seek help from advisors sponsored by the student union. Same goes for help with accommodation.
I'm sure they wouldn't want to look at the many notice boards maintained by the student union that are full of useful information that is used by all students every day of the week.
ALSO, along those lines I think anyone who doesn't belong to a union shouldn't expect wage rises unless they go into the bosses office and demand them. It seems that a very large portion of the Australian workforce should be embarassed about accepting a wage rise.
ALSO, I don't have kids in schools so you can take out that component of my taxes. Those little mongels are just freeloading of me.
ALSO, I'm not handicapped or unemployed so you can take the social security component out of my taxes.
ALSO, I only use roads in NSW as a rule so the component of my taxes that pays for a freeway in Melbourne can be handled by Victorians.
ALSO, I have cancers from time to time but nothing that will kill me so why should I pay for people to have chemotherapy.
ALSO, I'm not fussed about invading other countries so you can take that out of my taxes.

Oh s**t, I forgot...............I don't pay taxes. But if I did you could take all that stuff out because I don't use it.
I had a look at all the symbols on the right of this page but there don't seem to be any that show a tongue in cheek. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

I had to edit this post to add that I could give you an almost iron clad guarantee that your partner used many facilities provided by the student union. Did she get a map of the Uni when she started? Was there a noticeboard that she looked at for information every day? Was there a theatre group that gave free shows or a band that played for free and did she attend any social gatherings? Did she ever pick up a brochure of any kind? Did she ever read a book in the library that was provided by the student union?
http://www.union.unimelb.edu.au/
Have a look at any of the student union organisation and you will find that it's not all about subsidised student demos. If you have a look at a bio of politicians such as Tony Abbott you will find that they were strongly involved in student union activities and very glad of it.

[Dan]

What magical $$ figure defines rich from poor?
40,50,60 grand......which is it?

50 grand (100 for couples) makes you a high income earner and a leach on the Medicare system if you don't have private health cover. :(



When does get home from work? :D

[ndru]

I want to make a comment in this thread too! :D

[adrian]

...so the question remains:
Who are the rich?
If you can pay cash for your beemer and didn't care about the introduction of the GST.

But I wouldn't say it's as low as $50K.

[Iain]

My old bank manager wanted to know how I could afford a new BMW and Landcruiser when I was only earning $25k a year :D
The joys of having ones own business (then).

[Ashore]

I think the government should tax everybody at a flat rate of 10%, no rebates, no concessions, no deductions, no exceptions.

When Sir Joh ran for P.M. he wanted to do exactly that , all the pollies said he was mad/senile for suggesting it could never work etc......

Now we have GST and still all the other taxes consessions deductions rebates
and we are one of the highest taxed in the world even reading all the replys in this thread is taxing



I work hard because the people on the dole depend on me!

[Jack E]

I have stirred up a hornets nest haven't I :D :D :D

Please remember when replying to this thread that my two main points are;

1. I believe we should all pay the same tax rate, not the same amount of tax. (I have also said a couple of times throughout this thread that the services funded by taxpayers are necessary, but the tax system should be fairer).
I could find taxpayer funded services that I don't use as easily as others have highlighted the fact that there are those I do use :D :D

2. I believe student unions should be voluntary. Fair enough they provide services, if you want to use them you pay for them, welcome to the world.

I am not complaining about paying tax - just the difference in rates.
Nor am I complaining about students - I am in fact supporting many of them in their belief that they should have the freedom to choose whether they belong to a union or not.
A tradesman cannot be forced to join a union, it is up to the union to make itself attractive.

I wouldn't say that I am happy to pay tax but I do realise taxes are essential to suatain this wonderful country in which we live. :) :) :)

Jack

PS Adrian, I am not having a go at you but if you see the services provided by the government as necessary, why don't you pay tax?

[javali]

If he had one billion dollars worth of PBL shares he would earn $37 million a year from dividends. The company pays 30% tax and shareholders get that as franking credits so under the present system he would only have to pay the difference of 17% tax because he was on the top rate. So effectively he would be paying the same tax rate as a wage earner on less than $20,000.


A slight correction. Most of this income will be channelled through a holding company, and being fully franked will not attract any income tax. Income tax payment will be deferred to the time the money is taken from the holding company, which will not happen before the sun turns green.

Rich people do not pay more than 30% tax. It is those that cannot afford the creative solutions that pay more.

The problem with the 10% scheme is that it does not work. First, 10% is not enough to keep the government income level. 20% is more likely to be right. Furthermore, it will not solve the problem of tax evasions - as long as the gains from evasion are larger than the costs, people will find tax evasion techniques. Another problem is that it is not necessarily fair. "Fairness" depends on your views. is it fair that I should pay more income tax than any other person just because I earn more? Is it fair that some extremely rich person will pay the same amount of tax for each dollar he uses for his laisure trips to Europe as I pay for essencials like bread, shelter or tools?

[Ashore]

As for whos rich I am I dont make 50k a year but i've got a great wife Loving kids and two grandsons
not to mention a 7x6 meter workshop and a 7x6 meter storage shed
who could ask for more........ well maby a 10x10 meter workshop but then you always need a bigger shed


The trouble with life is there's no background music.

[Jack E]

Is it fair that some extremely rich person will pay the same amount of tax for each dollar he uses for his laisure trips to Europe as I pay for essencials like bread, shelter or tools?


I believe it is fair. Don't forget, the high income earner would pay the same rate on his essentials as a middle or low income earner, what he does with what he earns above that is his good fortune (be it through luck or wise life choices).

I count myself rich in many ways, money is not one of them.

Jack.

[AlexS]

I am really happy to be paying taxes, especially since i found that the government can afford to spend $5000 per chair for fat-asred cabinet ministers, most of whom are complete oxygen bandits and a waste of space. :mad:

[nic]

As for whos rich I am I dont make 50k a year but i've got a great wife Loving kids and two grandsons
not to mention a 7x6 meter workshop and a 7x6 meter storage shed
who could ask for more........ well maby a 10x10 meter workshop but then you always need a bigger shed


The trouble with life is there's no background music.

Ashore, I couldn't agree more. All you need is plenty of Love :p and pocket money to buy toys err ... tools :D :D

Nic

[adrian]

PS Adrian, I am not having a go at you but if you see the services provided by the government as necessary, why don't you pay tax?
I wouldn't mind if you were having a go at me. I'm very thick skinned and don't mind debate. That's what this particular forum is all about. (Friendly discussion)
As for paying taxes. Even if I wanted to there is no way I would be allowed to. My finances are structured in such a way that the only thing that happens at tax time is the tax office sends money to me. The only way that I could pay taxes would be if the government required all companies to pay dividends out of pre-tax profits so that the tax burden would be transferred to the shareholders. It would be great for the government because a significant part of company profits would be taxed at 47c in the dollar for shareholders instead of 30c in the dollar for companies. Watch Packer, Murdoch, Lowey etc squeal if that ever happened. Not to mention superannuation funds.
I've never shirked my responsibility where tax is concerned. Every year at tax time, when I was working, I would claim my union fees and that was it. The tax office got maximum value out of me. I was paying more than twice the rate of tax that Packer and any other member of the non PAYE club pay.
My previous, rather long winded post was to try and point out why I am glad that we live in a rather egalitarian society. Far better in almost every way to any on the planet. One in all in.
I also give thanks that we live in a 'robin hood' type of society because user pays sucks. It's the catchcry of every capitalist who wanted to make a dollar.
We pay tax at different rates because we have the capacity to do so and it is necessary for our society to maintain that balance.
Poor people don't get a concession when they go to buy the groceries. If I buy milk it costs exactly the same as Packer's milk but I pay an infinitely larger percentage of my income in GST for it than he does. Higher rates of tax are a very clumsy way of evening out the burden.

PS. If rich people start paying 47c in the dollar I promise that I will too.

[maglite]

It seems that everyone has a different point of veiw to what costitutes being labeled "Rich", but nobody can point the finger on an exact amount.
It hit the papers last week in Perth, that a laborer is on 100k+ per year working on the construction of the south bound rail line.
I bet if you asked him, he wouldnt classify himself as being rich.

The current tax system is here to stay but i cant help but wonder what price is put on incentive....if any.
Rather than change the current income tax regime,i also use only some of the govt services on offer, i would prefer that "other" taxes like CGT and double dipping of super were abolished instead.

[Zed]

in my humble opinion student unions at uni are WOFTAM - i never nor my wife used any of thier facilities (mind you I was an adult and my wife was an O/S student so we didnt need all the bullshyte that undergrads seem to need to learn how to think...)

as far as taxes go see this thread for my opinion. I think i'm being reasonably fair in this post....

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=17441&page=1&pp=15

[Jack E]

Zed,

You have my vote, not only for your policies but also because everytime I see little johnny on tele I laugh, I think you would humour me also :D

Adrian,

Glad to hear that you are here for "friendly discussion" also. It is the "Have your say" forum afterall.
I am happy for you because you can hide your money, one day I hope to be able to achieve the same. Unfortunately for high income earners this is where the problem starts. The higher income earners hide their income, meaning the not as high earners pay alot of tax and then want to hide theirs.
As this has been going on for years and shows no hope of change I plan to do the same thing.

When it all boils down to it I do want to make a dollar and the less I have to pay to support others the better.

Jack.

[Iain]

Did anyone see the Darling Buds of May :D :D , not the garbage seppo version, the proper one, sums this up nicely ;)

[Gingermick]

Wage earners are the only ones who pay high taxes on high incomes.I seem to pay large amounts of tax on a low income.

Does anyone disagree that we live in the best country in the world and have it, generally, pretty damn good? When your on a good thing etc.

Can you imagine what would happen if most services the government offered were taken away? As would need to occur when gov income dropped. Disabilliy first, then children etc
As well as junkies trying to steal your tools for drugs there would be people trying to steal them to feed the children. viz America.

[Pat]

Hail Zed, omniiscient ruler of Australia.

One addendum: Companies to train apprentices in all fields.

[Groggy]

Did anyone see the Darling Buds of May :D :D , not the garbage seppo version, the proper one, sums this up nicely ;)I saw that! SHE was the only actor/actress in that show, but others have told me there were a few other actors - I don't believe them....I can only remember HER - and have the retina burn to prove it!

[Iain]

Referring to Catherine Z J??? She can burn my retina's any time she likes :p

[Groggy]

Referring to Catherine Z J??? She can burn my retina's any time she likes :pOf course, she was the only one in the series remember!

[dan_tom]

I must be the only misguided uni student here that ever enjoyed a cool refreshing beer at my uni bar .... funded in part of course by awful student unions... $1 pots and $2 basics every day of the week back in 1994.

I was also the only student that ever used library facilities after hours (if it wasn't for student unions they would only have been opened between 9 and 5pm)....

I lecture uni students from UNSW and QUT and actually agree (despite my postings) that you should be able to choose whether you want to join a union.

I work in general practice and a user pays system in health care would be a disaster for low income earners, especially if you had a chronic disease. How many of you gripe about paying to see the GP? How many of you pay for your pathology tests, x rays, medications etc (don't forget ALL of it, ie: remove the bulk billed part and the subsidised medications through the PBS)? Don't get me started on smokers....we need the tax they pay on cigarettes to pay for their overuse of health care dollars later on...

Granted, 4WDs for people who need them in the bush - absolutely, but not for city dwellers who drive them for image and never get to see a dirt track! Try the David Suzuki nature challenge!

Cheers
Dan

[johnc]

As for student unions, I did first year of a degree full time and the balance externally. I used the student union in the first year, free beer nights where very well patronised and although you could find fault the union did provide a service. As an external student the union held no interest but I didn't mind paying the fee, but back then there was no HECS fees either now they really suck. Introduced by politicians who got free degrees to slug students on low or no income, and we want an educated nation? JohnC

[DanP]

Hecs repayments are based on what you earn. If you earn nothing you pay nothing. If you earn lots you pay it back quickly. I can't think of a much fairer system for people without the money to pay for further education to get that education. The other option is that only the rich kids get university educations. Now that would be really fair.

[vsquizz]

Pancakes anyone???

(Don't knock the rich, as of today rich is contributing large amounts towards the payments on my new Bobcat:p )

Bananas are good with pancakes

Cheers

[Gingermick]

Hecs repayments are based on what you earn..And if you happen to earn in the vicinity of the threshold the system can be quite a pain. ie If I work no OT I don't pay HECS but work 2 hours OT and HECS is witheld. But its not levied on what you earn above that amount, like tax. It is a fixed % of all, and of course if the net rise to my wage is less than the HECS %, I get less take home pay.
I'd be quite happy to pay higher marginal tax rates to repay HECS than have this situation.
Allthough I will get a pay rise soon that will push me back into HECS territory.

So I'll probably get a pay rise and end up with a pay reduction.

[Gingermick]

Further to that, I went along happily for a year nearly having HECS witheld, but come tax time the thresholds were raised and they gave it all back to me.
I could have put it onto HECS myself, but with three kids.. And no new gouges.

[kiwigeo]

Technically Im rich....salary usually just over $100,000 but I dont really see myself as a rich ba...d. House is paid off and I have a brand new workshop to play in but only managed all that because I dont have kids and my wife works. I also spend at least half my year imprisoned on offshore oil rigs in often not so nice parts of the world so I feel quite entitled to the salary I get...or whats left of it after Costello and co take their cut.

[kiwigeo]

Pancakes anyone???


Cheers

No thanks squizz....pancakes a bit rich.

[kiwigeo]

I am really happy to be paying taxes, especially since i found that the government can afford to spend $5000 per chair for fat-asred cabinet ministers, most of whom are complete oxygen bandits and a waste of space. :mad:

I agree...given em bean bags. Really cheap ones from the 2 dollar shop...the ones that make your ar...e itch if you sit on them for too long!!

[E. maculata]

It's alway been an argument on which way to lean left or right where is the middle or what is the moral ground.
To me it's really simple "I hereby agree that If I wish to enjoy the trappings of success in my life, I will as a human being also agree to helping a few of the less fortunate, it's only a few dollars after all.
and why the hell not, helping our fellow citizens out is as Aussie as......
like many of us having experienced life from both sides of the fence teaches us lessons and I for one will NEVER forget these lessons learnt from either perspective.
Let us consider it a user pays system for being allowed to be relatively well off, or the peasants may indeed start revolting and lop off our uncollective heads.



Bruce C.
(BTW I personally am not in the top brackets, but I'm not in the lower ones, I don't begrudge people wealth when they earn it, through application and hard work, however when they believe they're entitled to success as a birthright......well I say VIVA la revolution comrade......, this is also one of my favourite late at nite had a few drinks topics)

[Dion N]

One reason the NUS and the ardent student unionists are afraid of voluntary student unionism is because most students are likely to vote with their feet and not join. If uni is an educational experience to prepare you for life, then students could start by learning that nowhere else (to my knowledge) is it compulsory to join a union. Workers join unions because they hold the belief that the union provides them with a benefit. If the union is seen as not providing a benefit, membership slumps - as we are seeing now.

As for providing services - with the amount unis are charging, these services should be provided by the uni. The problem with the higher education debate is that people have this expectation that everyone ought to be able to go to uni. Realistically, only people who want to take up a profession like law, science, medicine or engineering need to go to university. In most other areas, on the job training, interspersed with some external study would be of more benefit. I think employers in many fields would agree that 1 year of job experience is probably worth more than 3 years of uni. Traineeships and apprenticeships are the way to go, but the idea that uni is for everyone is killing the trade and retail sectors and causing the Govt to spend more money funding uni's to pay for students to do courses that they don't really need....

As for lecturers, I get the distinct impression that TAFE lecturers are far more professional in the delivery of their lessons than uni lecturers. Uni lecturerer tend to be very smart in their field, but often terrible at imparting their knowledge to students. One thing the Govt could do is to legislate that all uni lecturers have to pass a spoken English test!

[journeyman Mick]

................If uni is an educational experience to prepare you for life, then students could start by learning that nowhere else (to my knowledge) is it compulsory to join a union............

Last time I worked on a large commercial site (Cairns Casino, 1995) I was forced to join the union. I rang the appropriate government department to complain as supposedly in Queensland there's no such thing as compulsory unionism. I was told that they didn't get involved in these things. Apparently the union goes to the builder at the beginning of the job and tells them that they will give them all hell unless they (the builder) requires all the contractors to "ensure" that all workers join the union.

Mick

[ozwinner]

Had the same problem years ago Mick, " you either join the union, or you dont work" :eek:


Al :(

[Ashore]

One reason the NUS and the ardent student unionists are afraid of voluntary student unionism is because most students are likely to vote with their feet and not join.


As for lecturers, I get the distinct impression that TAFE lecturers are far more professional in the delivery of their lessons than uni lecturers.
Must agree on both counts, Have had to pay the student Union standover Fee
And been paid as a lecturer.


How many Uni lectures :left school:went to Uni :became Uni Lecturers. ?
How many tafe lectures :left school:went to Tafe:became Tafe Lecturers. 0
Draw your own conclusions as to what this means.



The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

[javali]

As for lecturers, I get the distinct impression that TAFE lecturers are far more professional in the delivery of their lessons than uni lecturers. Uni lecturerer tend to be very smart in their field, but often terrible at imparting their knowledge to students. One thing the Govt could do is to legislate that all uni lecturers have to pass a spoken English test!

One of the greatest misconceptions about unis is that their main purpose is to provide a profession. The main purpose a university has is to do research. Teaching exists only for training researchers, and for funding. Universities are not supposed to give a profession. TAFE or apprenticeship are much better at that. This is the main reason that those professions that do require uni education also require an internship period. Uni education only provides the background knowledge. The internship provides the profession.

[E. maculata]

I believe in collectives, I believe in mateship, I believe in people power & democracy, therefore I believe in true unionism but it must be voluntary.
(I too had my issues with the ole BLF, Dad was a builder, no ticket no job)

However how many of us enjoy the relatively good conditions of the modern workplace and rates of reimbursement without a thought to those who fought for these rights and conditions.

On the flip side of popularity, why when I have stood on a picket line and lost 2 weeks income, been ostracised by the companies involved, been involved in unnecessary physical conflict had the apologists for unsafe archiac behaviours/practise slander us, then have those whom sacrificed nothing, not thier promotion opportunity, not pay, yet still enjoyed what We fought for....I'll tell you why because that is plain old right whether or not they are willing to stand up for themselves, we will anyway and not begrudge them as in the end it's for the better.

Ask yourself
Is it right?
Am I proud of my actions?
If it is my last action would I like to be remembered for it?
Is it for the greater good?


Bruce C.
Ethical actions & morality are not ambiguious they just get clouded by greed.

[Soren]

As an 'bean counter' who studied at TAFE, our favourite saying was always:
"An accountant from Uni, can write a 5000 word essay on "what is an Asset", whereas an accountaint from the TAFE, can actually do a bank reconciliation, reconcile debtors & creditors and produce P&L and Balance Sheets"

Maybe the relevance of what is being taught should be questioned

[journeyman Mick]

Bruce,
like you, I believe that without unions many would not enjoy the conditions they do now. If there's one thing unions have done in building is make it a safer business. But I just can't stand compulsory anything! I'll fight tooth and nail not to do something if I'm forced to do it, when if asked, I would probablty be happy to do it. I guess I'm in then minority in that I've got the negotiation skills and the cheek to get more when I believe I'm entitled to it. Having skills someone wants helps also. The other thing I don't like about unionism is that it gives everyone the same monetary value. If I'm more productive, can work unsupervised, always turn up on time and have every bit of gear required for the job then I reckon I'm worth more than the bloke next to me who turns up hungover and late most mornings, slacks off at every opportunity and whose toolkit consists of a ripped old nailbag with a hammer and a blunt chisel (this is a true and accurate description of the deadbeat I was assigned to work with on the casino, I had to lend him a pencil and we were both clearing around 1500 a week)

Mick

[E. maculata]

Agreed Mick, those types of people are everywhere, they probably don't deserve our efforts but they recieve them anyway, its' a sort of karma they never seem to last anyway, sure a few do prosper enough to P!ss us off, but not lot of them on a whole, and on the way we help those who need the "mouthpiece" we can offer. That cheek and brazenism you allude to, yep I know it, many of us with the "gift' (yeah like my "gift" hasn't got my nose broken more than once)of the gab use it for ourselves and sometimes even to help those who deserve a hand on up to our level.

Never have believed in compulsory unionism it's bad for the cause anyway, sorta like communism is bad news for socialists. ;)

[Ashore]

One of the greatest misconceptions about unis is that their main purpose is to provide a profession. The main purpose a university has is to do research. So we teach sorry research all out Nurses, Doctors, School Teachers, Lawyers, Engineers, etc
and then let them loose to learn on us to become what they already have written qualifications for and are paid for .
I never understood that before thanks

journeyman Mick
I agree with your views. When working at sea I was always a member and supporter of the union but by choice. I went to all the meetings and had my say put foward my thoughts and at times changed policy
Unionism works if democratic, and this country would not be the greatest place to live without unions but the whole consept of compulsory unions with no choice goes against everything I have ever believed .




The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

[adrian]

The solution is easy don't pay student union fees but remember to get a list of all sevices, notice boards, pamphlets, library books, free entertainment etc, so you can't be accused of sponging off people who contribute.
Don't join an industrial union but make sure that you give back any wage rise that is negotiated by a union because you are just sponging off other people.
If you work on a very dangerous building site and the union negotiates with the employer to implement safety proceedures, make sure you use the old unsafe proceedures. If you fall of a roof and survive don't go whining to the local union rep for help. Get a lawyer and pay for it yourself.
If you have a rostered day off that was negotiated by a union then if you have any moral fibre at all you will work a 40hour 5day week, work for a flat rate on weekends - no penalty rates or time and a half or double time.

[Iain]

I had to attend court once when someone was caught rorting the system via the computer system, I was a prosecution witness in the case as were several of my colleagues.
When we had out day in court the union reps were there harassing every witness for the prosecution.
It was that day that I lost any interest in unions who are prepared to use my money to harass anyone who is called upon to give evidence in a court of law, the defendant was found guilty and we still received union abuse for
setting him up etc (which we didn't).
It bothers me that they are prepared to extend their support in case like this to harrassment as well as funding a defence brief.

[adrian]

I had to attend court once when someone was caught rorting the system via the computer system, I was a prosecution witness in the case as were several of my colleagues.
When we had out day in court the union reps were there harassing every witness for the prosecution.
It was that day that I lost any interest in unions who are prepared to use my money to harass anyone who is called upon to give evidence in a court of law, the defendant was found guilty and we still received union abuse for
setting him up etc (which we didn't).
It bothers me that they are prepared to extend their support in case like this to harrassment as well as funding a defence brief.
There are criminals in every organisation. Just look at the number of politicians, police, doctors, judges etc who have been criminally prosecuted over the years. Unions don't have a monopoly on intimidation. You might find that there are a lot more people being threatened and intimidated by their employers than unions and ask anyone who has served in the armed forces what threats and intimidation are all about.

[kiwigeo]

Heres an idea for a completely radical new tax system. When you get youre tax assesment from the ATO you get three choices of method of payment:

1. pay the tax to the ATO OR
2. pay it to a worthy charity.
3. if youre a Woodie pay it to .

Of course there will be a few minor problems with this new system.... the ATOs tax harvest would drop to zero overnight and Politicians would have to suddenly consider the horrendous prospect of having to fund their own retirement.

[silentC]

I don't know why we just don't do away with government altogether and go back to the feudal system. It was so much easier then. Everyone was a peasant except for the local laird. You all worked for him and he provided protection from roving bands of robbers and neighbouring fiefdoms in return for all of your money and the first refusal on a shag with your missus on the wedding night. Small price to pay for a warm pile of hay and fresh rags to wear every other year.

[Jack E]

ask anyone who has served in the armed forces what threats and intimidation are all about.

You won't find many threats or intimidation in the Army these days.
I just left after 11 years and part of the reason was that I found the whole organisation (term used loosely) was becoming to soft, touchly feely, in touch with emotions etc.

The Army is a completely different environment to most other workplaces which needs to have a bit of fear and intimidation.

The idea as a leader (in the Army) is to have your soldiers more scared of you than the person shooting at them! That way when the poo hits the fan you know they will do what is necessary and what they are told!!!

How is someone who can't handle being yelled at going to handle someone trying to kill him?

Jack.

[Jack E]

"I hereby agree that If I wish to enjoy the trappings of success in my life, I will as a human being also agree to helping a few of the less fortunate, it's only a few dollars after all.

Bruce,

If you can see $30000 as only a few dollars then good luck to you!!!

Jack.

[Jack E]

So we teach sorry research all out Nurses, Doctors, School Teachers, Lawyers, Engineers, etc
and then let them loose to learn on us to become what they already have written qualifications for and are paid for .
I never understood that before thanks

That is exactly how it works.

Cast your mind back to when you graduated from uni. Were the next two years the biggest learning experience of your life (apart from this forum of course)?

Jack.

[Bob Willson]

I think that ALL income tax should be abolished and the GST set at 20% instead.
Every time that Packer buys a bottle of imported French bubbly he would be paying tax on it. Every time he bought another gold back scratcher he would pay tax on it. No matter what he bought, shares, holidays, took money out of the country, meat, another wife, he would have to pay tax on it the same as the rest of us but, because his expectations are somewhat higher than most pf the proletariat he would pay far more than we would.

[Dion N]

One of the greatest misconceptions about unis is that their main purpose is to provide a profession. The main purpose a university has is to do research. Teaching exists only for training researchers, and for funding. Universities are not supposed to give a profession. TAFE or apprenticeship are much better at that. This is the main reason that those professions that do require uni education also require an internship period. Uni education only provides the background knowledge. The internship provides the profession.

If unis are mainly for research, then the Govt is better off putting money into CSIRO or funding private R and D companies. At least all the money will go directly into research without some being siphoned off to provide teaching... :rolleyes:

Seriously through, If I am paying mega-bucks for a degree (or background knowledge), then the least I would expect is decent teaching! If unis are only providing teaching as a sideline to their main business, then they ought to hire some lecturers to do the teaching fulltime and let the rest of their staff get back to doing their research. That way you are getting taught by someone who cares, rather than someone who views lectures as an interuption to their PhD research.

Some of the research being done in universities is of such dubious value to society that I can't believe the Govt is funding it.

[RETIRED]

3. if youre a Woodie pay it to .

I LIKE option 3. :D :D :D

[Sturdee]

I LIKE option 3. :D :D :D


, it can't get better than that so may be you ought to close this thread whilst you are ahead. :D

Peter.

[E. maculata]

If you can see $30000 as only a few dollars then good luck to you!!!

Jack.

From Left field ;) 11 years in the army, good stuff Jack a few of my friends did the same, not a life for all I gather. But I can guess where the money for the lads & lassies and the necessary gadgets is garnered, so apparently we come from different camps entirely as I pity someone who sees it as anything more than what it is "money" thats all it is after all, not life, not death, not prosterity, nor rememberance..... it's just money.
Yes I earn it and require it, and yet I still refuse to allow it to rule my existence. I don't mind paying my taxes, only caveat I wish for is that at least 50% would go to those less fortunate than I.


Bruce C
NB; by less fortunate I did not mean Pollies :D

[Waldo]

G'day,

I'm going to wade in here with my 2 cents and be a bit contoversial.

I once was in a job once and didn't join the union - so I got sacked.

I see my brother-in-law who is a rigger and so is with a union - it rains and he's been there for 1/2 a day he goes home on full pay for the day. An apple will be thrown in the toilet so it clogs, they walk off because it's not up to scratch, there's intimadation galore. Unions demand picnic days and insist that the company they are working for pay them for it. A bit of steel might be thrown off a site a few floors up - it's unsafe, so the worksite is shut down and they go home on full pay for a few days until it's resolved. They have a dispute over pay, have a strike and they want to be paid.

An empoyer wants to streamline his business because under a union you can only pick up a hammer but you can't pick up a screwdriver - so instead the employer wants guys who can pick up a hammer and use a screwdriver and a shovel too. But the union says he can't sack that person to get someone to do the job of three people - it's his business, so why can't he?

It's not about better conditions, but let's see what we can get as freebies for the boys and drag the economy down - look at Victoria's record with the most delays per year by unions.

Pay your union fees - money for the union bosses.

It should be freedom of choice, not pay fees for a bunch of militants.

To me it's a whole load of C***

Sorry if I have offened some, but I can't wait until the job reforms come through after July 1. Unions have a place, but not a place where we have militant unions saying you can't be a chippie or whatever unless you pay up.

(I'm not a chippie BTW, but do it over again and I would be - instead I run my own business as a design consultancy)

:D