Electricity supply question - 3 phase vs 1 phase

[Avery]

Firstly , just let me saythat I have absolutely no intention of doing anything here myself ,I just want some clarification from an expert or two.

I have recently moved into a new (actually quite old) house and was about to find an electrician to install a 15 amp circuit in my shed.I got talking to the bloke across the road and he told me that I would have no problem as I have 3 phase connection. On investigation I found that I have 3 wires coming in from the pole across the road and those 3 wires are indeed connected to3 wires on the power pole. In the meter box there is 1 single phase meter plus an off peak meter.

I thought a single phase connection had 2 wires (phase and neutral) and a 3 phase connection had 4 wires.

So, can any one tell me what might be going on. Do I have 3 phase connection, if so why a single phase meter? If it is single pase , what is the third wire for and where might ir go?

[BobL]

I thought a single phase connection had 2 wires (phase and neutral) and a 3 phase connection had 4 wires.
Although most 3 phase wiring uses a neutral it is not always needed for three phase operation.
Remember all voltages have to be relative to a reference.
With single phase, a neutral is needed as a reference for the single phase.
With three phases (ABC) the voltages are relative to each other AB, BC and AC

It sounds like you have 3 phase to the meter but they decided to just wire up one phase.
If there were no 3 phase devices used in a house and the meter needed upgrading the to save a few$ sometimes they just wire up the whole house on one of the 3 phases.

[Avery]

Although some 3 phase wiring does use a neutral it is not needed for three phase operation.
Remember all voltages have to be relative to a reference.
With single phase, a neutral is needed as a reference for the single phase.
With three phases (ABC) the voltages are relative to each other AB, BC and AC

It sounds like you have 3 phase to the meter but they decided to just wire up one phase.
If there were no 3 phase devices used in a house and the meter needed upgrading the to save a few$ sometimes they just wire up the whole house on one of the 3 phases.


Thanks you for your quick reply.:):)

So if the whole house is connected to one phase and the other two are simply left dangling, does that mean that all the neutrals are just tied to ground at the meter box? To connect 3 phases I would need to upgrade the meter?

[DJ’s Timber]

So if the whole house is connected to one phase and the other two are simply left dangling, does that mean that all the neutrals are just tied to ground at the meter box? To connect 3 phases I would need to upgrade the meter?

Seeing that you're getting a 15amp p/point installed, raise the question with him, when you call, a sparky is really the only person who'll be able to answer the question, as he will be able to see what has been done.

[snowyskiesau]

FWIW I have 3 phase into the shed and it's definitely 4 wires. 3 wires have fuses on the entry and one doesn't (neutral)

Lights and power run from a single phase and there's a single 4 wire 3phase socket. 4 wire means 3 phases and earth, no neutral.

[BobL]

Thanks you for your quick reply.:):)

So if the whole house is connected to one phase and the other two are simply left dangling, does that mean that all the neutrals are just tied to ground at the meter box? To connect 3 phases I would need to upgrade the meter?

Essentially yes, have a read of this. Ground and neutral - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_and_neutral)

It is very important not to let DIYers think that they can do this themselves - wiring up neutrals and earthing can be a tricky business that can kill and best left to qualified people.

[Avery]

Seeing that you're getting a 15amp p/point installed, raise the question with him, when you call, a sparky is really the only person who'll be able to answer the question, as he will be able to see what has been done.



That is probably what will happen. If three phase is available I will want to use it. I have a couple of 3phase machines that I was goiing to run off single phase with electronic controllers.
I reallyjust like to know what is going on before i call the professionals in - just so I know what questions to ask.

[Avery]

FWIW I have 3 phase into the shed and it's definitely 4 wires. 3 wires have fuses on the entry and one doesn't (neutral)

Lights and power run from a single phase and there's a single 4 wire 3phase socket. 4 wire means 3 phases and earth, no neutral.



Looks just like mine except I don't have the 4th wire.

[Vernonv]

I have 3 wires coming onto my property and it's what it known as split phase - 2 x 240 (180 deg out of phase) and neutral. The phase to phase voltage is 480V, and not 415V like proper 3 phase.

[andyd]

It was quite common back I the 60's and 70's in NSW to bring 2 phases into houses. 1 phase was used general supply to the house and the second phase was a dedicated off peak supply for hot water. The three wires are probably 2 active and 1 neutral. If you can post a picture of the switchboard it should be fairly easy to tell.

Andyd

[BobL]

It was quite common back I the 60's and 70's in NSW to bring 2 phases into houses. 1 phase was used general supply to the house and the second phase was a dedicated off peak supply for hot water. The three wires are probably 2 active and 1 neutral. If you can post a picture of the switchboard it should be fairly easy to tell.

Andyd

I see a number of domestic electric ovens are designed to run with two phases.

[swk]

It was quite common back I the 60's and 70's in NSW to bring 2 phases into houses. 1 phase was used general supply to the house and the second phase was a dedicated off peak supply for hot water. The three wires are probably 2 active and 1 neutral. If you can post a picture of the switchboard it should be fairly easy to tell.

Andyd

What Andy and BobL said. Vernon, I think is in the country on a SWER or similar.

In SA in the 60s it was commonish to run the house on single phase and oven across two phases. Effectively a 240V house and a "single phase" 415V oven.
With three wires and an old house I would bet that this is what you have. A clue, but not definite, to look for is are they two covered wires and one bare (two phases and neutral respectively) however, they could be all covered or all bare.

After the original stove or HWS died and was replaced with a new single phase one the other active would have been left unconnected to anything (except maybe the meter, the meter would be a two phase one and you should be able to tell if it wasn't changed subsequently).

Also the 3 wires you can see (and the rating of the service fuse) would be quite small compared to a modern service, probably only good for 50A or so (maybe need to get them checked)
.

Regards
SWK

[DavidG]

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[Schtoo]

You have a single phase connection, the additional live wire is old-school off peak supply, and will only be functional when 'off peak' is on. The newer systems use a single live wire and send a signal pulse down the line so the meter knows that it's billing 'off peak'. Those old 'off peak' supplies are somewhat dangerous, as they check out as dead, but can become live at any time. Stupid sparkys get zapped off them all the time.

Your sparky will have no trouble running a 15A line to wherever you want it to be. You don't 'need' to be able to supply the full supply current to every single point, so adding in a circuit shouldn't be a problem at all. You might get some trouble if your supply coming in isn't really enough to run everything you might want to run all at the same time though, so be aware of that.

But, get a sparky on site to sort it out.


Stu.

(Licensed Electrical Mechanic.)

[swk]

Stu.
Avery said the three wires to his house came from across the road. So unless there was an common LV mains switchwire for off peak (like an old street light system) or the time clock was out in the street, I don't think it is an off peak arrangement. Something like that could have been used in NSW (I don't know) but arrangements like those were never used in SA.

I still think the circumstances indicates a two phase and neutral system of some sort. If so, the wires will be small (7/18g is what was used in SA, that's equivalent to 8mm2 in metric, about 1/2 the size of a normal service these days)

Avery,
since the house is old and things like the stove have been changed/upgraded and other circuits added over time, get your electrician to do a "maximum demand calculation" (use those words) before he adds anything to the house. I can't see it to know for sure but I am suspicious that the old service is too small for modern day use.
It used to be in SA that a service upgrade would be provided by the distribution company at no (or minimal) cost if the load on the house had increased to justify it. You may find that if the single (or two) phase service has to be upgraded there might be a discounted price to go one more step and get a three phase one if you really wanted one (it used to be like that in SA). Of course there would need to be some mods done on your switchboard and a new 3 phase run out to the shed, which will add to the cost if you do go to 3 phase. But if you haven't bought your inverters already you can weigh the cost differences of the two options.

As the moderators noted and Stu pointed out, get someone to look at it. _If_ it is a two phase system there is a chance of giving yourself a 415V shock, obviously even more dangerous than the usual 240V of a normal house. _If_ it has a timed system as Stu believes parts of it could liven up unexpectedly when you thought you were safe. Neither Stu nor I nor anyone else on this board can tell for sure what you have without looking at it. All comments given are intended so you can deal more intelligently with an appropriately qualified person, which I understood is your intention from your original post.

Regards
SWK
(SA "A" Class)

[Schtoo]

In Victoria and I believe NSW, they used to run a full sized 'off peak' wire, especially in old installs. It's not a switch/signal wire.

I was always in commercial/industrial, but occasionally we'd have to go play sparky in someone's house. Always hated those off peak things as I had one come live at 11AM while we were busily replacing the water heater's element. Thankfully, we had isolated it correctly, but I was still a 'kid' so freaked out when I checked it before hooking it all back up again. Got a lesson in how they do it first hand that day, and again at trade school. And no, it was not the booster element.

Still don't know why the off peak came on at 11AM, but that is an off peak time so...

Two phase is pretty rare from what I've seen. Usually on 'all electric' installs, of which there weren't many in Victoria.

But, as you note, things are different depending on where you go. Could well be 2 phase (more than one way that's done) as well.

I've worked in NSW, and was surprised at what was allowed compared to Vic. Asking for 'twin active' at the wholesalers, they look at you like you've got a second head. And that was just one small thing...

Any sparky worth their salt will know what it is in about 5 minutes after laying eye on it, and if they don't, escort them from the premises.

Stu.

(Don't ask what they get away with here. Scary...)

[swk]

Stu, the reason they come on at 11 and other odd hours is that the old mechanical time clocks used to drift around or stop for a while. Back when I were a lad too, when we did work in a meter box we would often reset the clocks to go on and off at a more correct time. My first house never had a time clock at all, it was never installed, so I had off peak hot water 24 hrs a days. I don't recall ever reporting that, I think it slipped my mind. Probably still like it :-)
When I was talking about a switchwire I meant the same as used to power the street lights before PE cells came along. If the line coming in to Avery's house supplied the full power for the off peak (and turned on and off) there would have to be an extra wire running down the street from the main time clock, or whatever. Making 5 wires on the LV street mains (or 6 if the street lights were switched the same way). But then all the local houses would be on the same phase for off peak and the transformer load would be really unbalanced at night. Like I said, it could be done, but was never done that way in SA.

And yes I can believe about Japan. Spent a day or so each passing through Tokyo and Okinawa. But better than many (https://picasaweb.google.com/swkswk62/Best350Iran2007#5116759006856224770) other countries (https://picasaweb.google.com/swkswk62/WorldElectrical).

Regards
SWK

[BobL]

. . . .(Don't ask what they get away with here. Scary...)

I worked at several research labs in Japan for about 4 months back in the mid 90's. What I was surprised about was that not much stuff was earthed. Even some metal bodied equipment often just had a two pin plug. The other thing was endless adapater boards plugged into more adapter boards. In one very squeezy postgraduate student work room which housed about 15 students, I was allocated about 500 mm of desk space for a few weeks, and I pretty sure every student's computer ran off just one GPO.

[Avery]

I will take the best of the advice andcall in a pro.

The house is pre '70s. but there have been many changes.

There are defintely 3 insulated wires coming from the pole across the street. There appears to be only 1 50 amp main fuse. There is an off peak meter and another single phase meter - both are "smart" meters. Most of the circuit breakers hav ebeen moved to a sub-board inside the house.The main switch in the meter box kills all power to the house (as it should) there is another breaker in the box that also kills all power and there are separate breakers on the sub board that kill the power and lighting circuits.

Beyond that I have absolutely no idea, so it is time to spend some money.