Playing with shellac & grainfiller

[3 toed sloth]

Hi all,

Hoping someone can help me with a finish I'm working on for a small side table top.

The timber is beautiful Aus. red cedar and I want to finish with shellac with a wax on top. Because the red cedar is fairly open grained and the boards are backsawn also, I decided to try a filled grain process for the top. So after a good look on youtube and reading a few books etc. I sanded the top to 400, mixed up a pasty mix of timbermate and worked it into the grain with a credit card.

I let this dry overnight and then sanded back with 240. Then 320 and top felt very nice and smooth. I was a bit worried the grain wasn't completely filled but I decided to press on and see what the shellac did. I padded/wiped on two coats of shellac and the wood looks amazing but the grain is not completely filled. So I brushed on a coat of shellac to try and fill the grain a bit more.

Grain still wasn't filled completely so I decided to sand the shellac smooth and apply another grain filling timbermate mix. That's where I'm up to now so I thought I'd post this while I wait for it to dry. I'll go and take a couple of pics to add.

Any advice or guidance or shared experience would be great to hear.

Peter.

[3 toed sloth]

Here's a few pics to help visualise.

[Horsecroft88]

I am not sure I can add anything re grain filling, with a diluted putty. But I must admit your table top is looking really lovely. Cedar when polished with shellac and wax polished really does come up so well. I have to admit to having a bit of a cedar habit.

In polishing cedar or for that matter any old timbers grain filling is not something I have ever tackled or know why you would need to. I just normally keep on applying shellac coats until I am happy with the depth of coating/shine, before cutting back with 0000 steel wool and wax polishing. Perhaps I am missing a technique to be aware of.

I normally would apply anywhere between 6-10 coats of shellac on timbers I am polishing, and given I only polish/restore antiques and antique joinery (have two very early colonial houses), I have always found this to work well. New Cedar though perhaps is a different story ?

[3 toed sloth]

Thanks Horsecroft, yes I normally don't worry about grain filling as I like the natural look, but this cedar is very open grained and I just wanted to try filling the grain. I agree the top looks great with the shellac and partially filled as shown in the photo.

I initially put the grain filler onto the bare timber and found it was a bit difficult to fully get rid of the filler colour from the wood, I might have over sanded a bit, trying to get rid of it. When I was doing some more research some people suggest applying a light shellac before filling the grain, so the filler color doesn't get into the wood.

One of my questions is if it is too late to apply extra filler now that I have applied a few coats of shellac. When you say 6-10 coats of shellac do you mean by brush or do you pad it on? Brushing seems to produce a thicker coverage but I find it is easier to produce a smooth finish with a pad.

Peter

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Peter, I hear what you are saying and so yes I guess in trying to fill some of the open grain with essentially I assume say a cedar wood putty that means you should have a better surface over which to coat with the shellac. I assume this is the principle.

Ok, my take for what it is worth and given I havn't tried this method, is that if you still need to fill in grain then I would think that another wash coat of thinned down filler which is thereafter lightly sanded back and more coats of shellac applied probably shouldn't be a problem. Afterall most wood putty's are as I understand likely to be hydroscopic, (meaning you wash up with water), which equally means they will absorb the shellac and therefore with multiple coats take up the colour of the shellac. If this is correct then I can't see any problems.

In terms of how I apply shellac and yes you are completely correct re the differences between brushing it on vrs padding (akin to proper french polishing) is that with brushing it on you do get a thicker coating. But herein can also lay a problem in that as it drys it can be a little uneven and result in ridges of shellac forming. This can be both a little tricky to get rid of let alone unsightly. The point with shellac finishes is to get a completely even/smooth finish. As a rule I only use orange shellac. I am yet to try either light or hard shellac.

What I normally do is start off with a brush for the first or second coat and thereafter go over to padding it on. I normally cut back every 3-4 coats with 400 grade paper and at the end with 0000 steel wool. I have found that for me this works normally really well. If you wander over to my thread on the restoration part of the forum, you will see some pics and plenty of descriptions of how this all works.

All the best with your cedar table. It will be really lovely when finished. Dave

[3 toed sloth]

Thanks for the feedback Dave, much appreciated. At least your reaction wasn't.."OMG what the hell are you doing!!??" haha.

I'll give the top a light 400 sand this morning and apply some more shellac and see how it comes up.

I enjoyed reading your thread in resto. fascinating stuff. I started getting a strange urge to buy some old furniture and start fixing it up:D Great work on the side table.:2tsup:

[3 toed sloth]

Well I lightly sanded the top with 400 grit SP and then 0000 steel wool, came up beautiful and smooth. Padded on a couple of coats of shellac and am very happy with the result. Grain still slightly visible but that's OK. It's a bit cold and wet here at the moment so I'll leave it for now before a light sand and Ubeaut trad. wax when it's dryer.

Regards
Peter

[Horsecroft88]

Hi Peter, It sure sounds like you have nailed this one really well. The one thing I have learned over the years is that I still have plenty left to learn in this furniture restoration/polishing business. Therefore definitely no OMG what have you done moments from me in the technique you have used. Something for me to be aware of when needed in future.

I am glad it worked out really well. The wax on/off time I think is always the pleasurable time, when you see all your efforts come to shine through. Glad you also enjoyed my thread. I managed to finish off my latest project table and am pretty happy with the results.

[section1]

I'm not a fan of timber mate I usually prefer wattyl timber grain filler that's always worked like dream for me but having said that your last grit prior to applying anything was 400 that's where I feel you've made your first mistake. After applying your filler you went back and sanded with 240 when the rule of thumb is you sand with the last grit you finished off with. I feel that you have sanded most of your filler without even realising it, you should of finished with 220 then started sanding again once the filler was dry with 220 and worked your way up to 400. I know why you started with a low grit because they're so darn hard to sand away but there is a fool proof method that will save you sanding time and paper and that's spraying it on. I honesty don't why it works better but it's been proven time again, sanding is alot simpler once the filler has been sprayed on and so far I only know this to be true with sanding sealers. But I think the wattyl product I mentioned is far superior than timber mate. Either way your table looks great I've seen an artice in FW when they wire brushed the timber to make the grain pop you've managed to do that without any effort. Excellent work !

[3 toed sloth]

Thanks Section1. I am interested to try other grain fillers, Wattyl among them. I was also thinking of trying the old method of using plaster of paris, dyed to suit.

Regards,
Peter

[fineboxes]

Thanks Section 1. I am interested to try other grain fillers, Wattyl among them. I was also thinking of trying the old method of using plaster of paris, dyed to suit.

Regards,
Peter

Whenever I french polish Aust. Cedar I use pumice or on marquetry I use the quicker way which is Plaster of Paris that's how I fill it but no stain.

You can use water to make a paste with the plaster, but I use DAA as it dries much quicker. Rub it in well, when dry to get rid of the excess a fine grain scouring pad does the trick or 240 grit.

Then rub it over well with a rag wrapped around your finger dipped in RAW linseed oil, that makes the plaster go translucent then finish it as usual.

In days gone by they used to fill it with Arrowroot, that's why in many of the cedar antiques, around now, show white fleck in the grain it's the filler with the oil bleached out if it.

Try it on a test piece guaranteed to work.


Cheers

Steve

[3 toed sloth]

Thanks Steve, great advice. That top looks fantastic. The darkness of the filler looks good, I think my filling may be a bit too similar in color to the rest of the wood, although it still looks OK.

[fineboxes]

Thanks Steve, great advice. That top looks fantastic. The darkness of the filler looks good, I think my filling may be a bit too similar in color to the rest of the wood, although it still looks OK.

Just another tip, if you have to choose always have filler or putty darker that the surrounding wood. If it's lighter it tends to stick out like the proverbial dogs wot knots.

Cheers

Steve

[3 toed sloth]

Good tip Steve. I just used the old tried and tested method of using whatever I had:roll:. The timbermate I used is jarrah color. It has turned out very slightly darker than the wood but not by much. Darker would have been better.

[cadas]

Another method is wet sanding with shellac, but it will be challenging on such a big area.

Apply an good coat of shellac and using wet and dry, dip the sanding pad in shellac and keeping it wet, sand slowly in circular motion to build up a slurry.

When you've done an area let dry and sand off to a polish.

[section1]

That only works on unstained timbers, but you can use that method with danish oil as well.

[cadas]

Yep, best before staining. The reason I prefer shellac is the speed of drying, with oil you can pull the slurry out if the pores, unless left a long time.

[section1]

Hmm I didn't know that I've seen youtube videos of where they use danish oil, sand to a make a slurry and then glently damn I forgot with the grain or against the grain. This is what I plan on doing in my current project as I fighting an up hill battle with it. I've stained the timber but I need to fill it to level it and I'm thinking because the timber grain filler will require alot of sanding I'm afraid I will sand through the stain on the other hand if I thinned the saind sealer and lightly sanded it I shouldnt have a problem. But instead of all of that I am thinking I probably would be better off making a slurry with the danish oil and when it's fully cured spray some poly on top.

What do think will any of them work.

[cadas]

You're going to affect the stain to some extent whatever you do.

I'd totally forgotten but there was also an issue of Fine Woodworking where they 'revealed' the wet sanding method using polyurethane. Never tried it but it makes some sense. Slower drying than shellac but not as slow as oil. I would hesitate to do it with Danish oil unless the brand you have goes off reasonably quick.

If you wet sand with poly then you won't be dry sanding the stained surface afterwards.

[section1]

Yes I know I will there is no solution to this except for one and that is tinting the filler sand it back and then stain it, I've wet sanded before with danish oil even with poly but I thinned it down so I can apply it with a rag. Without filling the pores the timber just absorbs too much poly resulting in days and days of recoats.